Third Basemen and Career Confluences

53 Comments

1. 1
   Howard says:

   May 17, 2012 at 8:43 pm

   I’m not so sure it’s a lock for Rolen given his atrocious offensive numbers this year following a poor year in 2011 he may well get benched.

   Reply
2. 2
   Neil L. says:

   May 17, 2012 at 9:06 pm

   Howard, why do the Reds continue to give Scott Rolen a regular spot in the lineup when he consumes so many outs?

   Loyalty, inertia, front-office incompetence, fan pressure, dry minor-league system?

   How will they ever catch the Cardinals if they allow an offensive position to be occupied by a batting liability?

   Reply
   • 17
     Howard says:

     May 18, 2012 at 8:23 am

     I can’t believe it’s loyalty or fan pressure considering Rolen has had only one good season for them. The other possibilities sound very reasonable though.

     Reply
3. 3
   Hartvig says:

   May 17, 2012 at 9:42 pm

   It’s fairly amazing that easily 2 and arguably 3 of the 10 best third basemen of all-time (I would put Beltre about 12th or so right now but 2 more good years would put him at 10 for me) had careers that were almost entirely concurrent and so many people didn’t seem to notice? At least I don’t remember a whole lot being written about it. Chipper got the best press but was usually over-shadowed by Atlanta’s pitching. Rolen played in Schmidt’s shadow in Philly and always seemed to be mentioned after Albert and Jim Edmonds in St. Louis. Beltre bounced around a fair bit and was most often noticed for his up and down seasons rather than his defense or the huge offensive seasons he did produce.

   It does seem incredible that all but maybe 3 of the 15 greatest third basemen of all time played at least some of their career in the past 40 years and that the best of the 3 that didn’t only missed by a few years. Shortstop and maybe catcher are the only positions close to being so heavily weighted with modern era players but at both of them you have a couple of stars who’s careers started before WW2 at or near the top of the list (Wagner/Vaughn and Gibson/Cochrane). Baker is the only one who comes close at third and his career was pretty short for a non-catcher and he doesn’t crack my top 5,

   Reply
   • 4
     Neil L. says:

     May 17, 2012 at 9:59 pm

     Hartvig, just out of curiousity, does Brooks Robinson top your all-time list of “best” third basemen?

     The difficulty, in my view, of ranking players, is separating offense from defense. Silver Slugger Award versus Golden Glove Award.

     You must maintain a minimum level of batting productivity to remain in the lineup, yet the definition of that level varies over decades with the run environment and the defensive position.

     Mark Belanger would not be able to crack a 2012 major-league roster, in my opinion.

     Reply
     • 7
       Hartvig says:

       May 17, 2012 at 10:28 pm

       No, Schmidt is my number 1 pick. And in truth the order I list them in today might not be the same as I would in a month or two. I’d say Robinson would probably max out at about number 5 but right now I’d say he’s number 8. Since I lived well outside of any major league television market the only times I got to see him play live was on a few games of the week and in some series games. I did get to “hear” him play on a lot of radio broadcasts however. But since defense was alway so subjective I always tended to give more credence to the stuff you could find on the backs of baseball cards and I think that prejudice is still a part of my makeup somewhere.

       As wonderful an infield of Brooks and Ozzie and Maz would be I would still take Wade Boggs and Ernie Banks and Jeff Kent over them. To be fair, Robinson and Smith were good enough hitters that I would still take them over almost any other player but both still rank towards the bottom of my top 10′s.

       Reply
       • 9
         Neil L. says:

         May 17, 2012 at 10:43 pm

         Hartvig, Brooks Robinson at number 8???

         With all due respect, then why does he lead by such a wide margin over Schmidt and Boggs in games played at 3B? His managers and general managers were not blindly loyal.

         Didn’t Brooks play in an era when defense was valued more than today? Preventing runs was as important as driving them in when runs were at a premium!

         Reply
         • 13
           Hartvig says:

           May 18, 2012 at 1:14 am

           Like I said, I value offense over defense, at least within limits. Of the 7 guys that I have above him I would call 6 of them at the least good fielding 3rd baseman and probably the worst of them (Chipper) was at the very least adequate. Schmidt was outstanding. Mathews, Santo and Baker were excellent, especially when you consider that in Baker’s time third base was a fielders position first and foremost and he was still better than average. Boggs and Brett were much better than their reputations give them credit for- I believe that both were above average at least for most of their careers. All of the above had a higher career WAR than Robinson other than Santo and Baker who were close but in much shorter careers. The same is true for win shares (I think). Robinson is far behind any of them in runs created even though he had the longest career of the bunch. I just don’t see that as good as his defense was that it was enough to offset the difference in offensive production. Robinson was a pretty good to average hitter for much of his career but he had maybe 2 outstanding offensive seasons, neither of which really measure up to the 2 (or ever 3, 4 or 5 or more in some cases) best seasons of the guys I have above him.

           I think Robinson was the best fielding third baseman ever by a significant margin. I think he was a pretty good hitter for many years who had a couple of great seasons with the bat. If I were a manager and I had a 23 year old Brooks Robinson playing third base for me I would be happy as all get out. If I had Miguel Cabrera at third base and Robinson came along Cabrera would be my DH or first baseman or left fielder before you could say jack flash. To top it all off, everything I’ve ever read about him says he’s one of the nicest people you’ll ever meet.

           But as great as he was with the glove those other 7 guys are going to put a lot more runs on the board than he will save you with the glove and that’s going to win you more games.
         • 14
           bstar says:

           May 18, 2012 at 2:41 am

           Very well written, Hartvig. I’m like you-I do a lot of flip-flopping when it comes to rating the third basemen after Schmidt.

           Revisiting the topic tonight, I spent an hour earlier looking at Wade Boggs’ career and was surprised at how much of a benefit he received from playing in Fenway Park. Boggs hit an alarming number of doubles in his time with the Red Sox, enough to place him fifth on the all-time list for doubles in a player’s 1st 11 seasons:

           1. Albert Pujols 455
           1. Todd Helton 455
           3. Joe Medwick 453
           4. Paul Waner 451
           5. Wade Boggs 422

           What’s interesting is that Boggs in that time had almost exactly twice as many doubles at Fenway compared to on the road (281 to 141). Taking this and the fact that Boggs hit “only” .302 on the road for his career into account makes me think Boggs may only have won two or three batting titles and probably would not have approached 3,000 hits playing for another team in the AL.
         • 20
           Lawrence Azrin says:

           May 18, 2012 at 12:15 pm

           “why does he lead by such a wide margin over Schmidt and Boggs in games played at 3B?”:

           Wade Boggs started late (age 24) because the Red Sox didn’t think he had enough HR power, and was blocked at third base his rookie year (1982) by Carny Lansford. He also lost about 70 games due to the 1994-95 strike.

           Mike Schmidt didn’t play regularly until 23, he missed 55 games due to the 1981 strike, and he played first base base regularly in 1985.

           Why specifically did Brooks play so long:

           1) Brooks come young to the Orioles and played regularly/semi-regularly at 20/21, when he probably wasn’t quite a good enough hitter to do that. The Orioles were rebuilding in the late 50s under Paul Richards, reversing decades of failure as the Browns.

           2) Once he got established at age 23 in 1960, he rarely missed a game, or played another position (30 G not at 3B):
           - over 16 years, from ages 23-38, he never played less than 144 games
           also:
           - 150 or more games 14 times
           - 155 or more games 11 times
           - every game in aseason five times

           3) The AL was noticeably weak for third basemen in the 1960s. Until Craig Nettles in 1971-72 and Buddy Bell in 1973-74, there were no other established 3Bmen to challenge him for the perception of the best AL 3Bman.

           I mean, Frank Malzone, Max Alvis, and Pete Ward were very good players for a time, but don’t really come close to Brooks.
         • 30
           Tmckelv says:

           May 18, 2012 at 3:00 pm

           bstar@14 Re: Boggs and 2Bs…

           I think Boggs was a good enough hitter that he could change his approach a little depending on whether he was at home or on the road. Since the Green Monster could easily give up doubles, he would try to do just that, and then maybe didn’t spray the ball towards LF as much on the road. If this is true, it could account for the tremendous difference in home/road 2B splits. As opposed to him blindly hitting the ball the same wherever the game was and just accepting the outcome. I don’t see Boggs being happy with his 2B output on the road if it were so much less than home (just because of the field). I would think he would make adjustments.
         • 32
           Paul E says:

           May 18, 2012 at 3:38 pm

           @30 tmckelv & 14 bstar:

           Regarding green monster doubles and Boggs, a couple of long-time LH hitting Red Sox, Yaz and Williams, went 382/262 and 319/206 home /away in the EXACT number of plate appearances home and away career for Yaz and 4,954 / 4,834 PA’s home /away for Williams. I just don’t know if a dead-pull hitter like Williams was looking to do this at home as many of these would have been just natural fly ball outs on the road. Pretty odd that he hit 113 more doubles at home in 120 more plate appearances. If they are fly ball outs, all 113, he becomes a .332 home park hitter – much more in line with his .328 career road average
         • 34
           tag says:

           May 18, 2012 at 3:44 pm

           I used to argue for the supremacy of Santo over Brooks back in the day, and everyone thought I was off my rocker. Santo’s bat was clearly superior (even in Brooks’s MVP year, Santo’s OPS+ was almost 20 points higher) and his glove was excellent as well. I just thought the difference in offense between the two gave the clear edge to Santo, and Brooks’s defense, while superlative, could not make up that gap. It will be interesting to see, as defensive metrics improve, if such a view will continue to hold water.
         • 39
           Hartvig says:

           May 18, 2012 at 5:04 pm

           Tmckelv-

           I actually wrote quite a lot that it might be possible that the opposite might be true- that Boggs altered his approach so much at home that it hurt him on the road- but looking at the splits for other Boston hitters tells me that’s really not likely either. They were all adding 40 points to their batting average at home (even Teddy Ballgame hit 33 points better) and they were all hitting a boatload more doubles in Fenway then on the road. It didn’t matter- dead pull lefty like Williams or Yaz or dead up righty like Rice, gap hitter like Boggs, pure hitter like Lynn before he developed his power stroke. I understand righty pull hitters and lefty slap hitters knocking a lot of balls of the Monster but Teddy and Yaz must have bounced a lot more than I remembered around that little jag in deep right center than I recall.
         • 51
           e pluribus munu says:

           May 19, 2012 at 12:51 am

           I think there’s something else to consider about Robinson’s ranking, and it relates to Lawrence Azrin’s historical description of third basemen (#25, which I appreciated seeing again). Robinson changed the way people looked at third base defensively – at least, that’s my recollection (recalling the period from the mid-’50s to the mid-’70s).

           When I was young, Pie Traynor was, as Lawrence says, the standard historically (I’d never heard of Jimmy Collins then – pre-Macmillan encyclopedia days what kids had?). Frank Malzone was the person I recall being celebrated as best active all-around third baseman (don’t ask – I have absolutely no idea), with Ken Boyer in the NL. Obviously, Mathews was in a class of his own, but not much mentioned as a third-baseman, he just stood there when the other team batted (I’m sure he was better than that – for some reason, he always seemed to be undervalued).

           When Robinson began to attract attention in the mid-’60s, it wasn’t because he was better in the field, it was because he was playing the position at a level never before imagined, particularly in terms of getting to the line to cut off doubles. Watching him (on TV) in the pre-webgem era, he seemed like a circus act – no fun for me: I was always rooting for other teams. (I’ve since read descriptions of Collins that sounded similar.)

           A few years later, Nettles was playing like that and then Schmidt – I really can’t remember Santo as an acrobat except leaving the field, but those other two guys really surprised me, especially Schmidt. It was as though the next Mathews understood that third base was now a Robinson position. So in that sense, Robinson changed the game with the standards he demonstrated, and in ranking players, I think we should always take into consideration skills that change the game.

           The caveat to this story is that there’s one guy left out – Clete Boyer. Boyer, C., was getting press for spectacular fielding before Robinson, but his bat was so weak that he wasn’t an example of what a third baseman could do, he was proof that the Yankees were so rich they didn’t need a bat at third at all – and they could steal a glove (or anything else) from KC whenever they wanted to.
       • 21
         Paul E says:

         May 18, 2012 at 12:20 pm

         Amen…sooner or later, “they” are going to nail this “dWAR”/”fielding value”/ etc thing. In the interim, it’s a lot of speculation as to the true measurable value of the glove. Beltre is a career 110 OPS+. Great, spectacular glove included, how much ground does that make up on guys like Sheffield, Dick Allen, or Ryan Braun if they were to stay at 3B and transform themselves from woefully inadequate butchers to plain mediocre in an on-the-job training type setting.

         Years ago, Bill James stated he would have given serious thought to keeping Braun at 3B and tried to score 6 runs per night with another good bat in LF. If Allen hadn’t played 0 (zero !) games in the minors at 3B, he may have been able to stay there at the ML level – same with Sheffield. And Braun was a pretty quick call up after being drafted out of Miami since his bat was deemed ready. Maybe the Brewers should have committed to him at 3B?…sorry, I’m rambling

         Reply
         • 26
           Hartvig says:

           May 18, 2012 at 1:31 pm

           You’re mentioning Beltre caused another thought to pop into my head about why it’s difficult to rank players. As an offensive player, Beltre has been notoriously inconsistent. When you’re ranking him against a player with similar career totals who was known for his consistency should it count for or against him? Is it better to have the guy who hits 20 homes and bats .290 year in/year out or do you want the guy who stinks up the joint one year but looks like a Hall of Famer the next? A few other names of players with reputations for being inconsistent that come to mind are Mickey Vernon, Roy Campanella (perhaps undeserved because of injuries) and possibly the most extreme case of all, Kevin Mitchell. I’m inclined to lead towards the big season guys because for most teams the window to win the World Series is usually pretty narrow and they’re more likely to get you there.

           As far as you notion about sacrificing defense for offense, I’m inclined to agree with that as well- at least a certain positions. I think it was foolish of the Yankees to pay what they did for Rodriguez and then move him to third base (which reminds me- if we count him as a third baseman then everyone one my list moves down a notch) because much of his value was in being a shortstop who could hit like he could. There’s a reason that since the end of the dead ball era that third base has been transitioning to a hitters position. That said, I also don’t think that just anyone could play the position either. Of the guys you mentioned, Sheffield probably was the most athletic but I’m not sure that he would have cared enough to try and improve his fielding. I do think that given different circumstances that Allen may have succeeded, at least for a few more years. I’m a little more doubtful about Braun.

           Detroit’s experiment with Cabrera this year might be a good opportunity to see how the experiment works out.
       • 24
         JDV says:

         May 18, 2012 at 1:09 pm

         Brooks Robinson is one of my favorite players ever. I don’t think it’s biased, though, to have him in any top-three list at that position. Schmidt probably surpassed him, and Santo was great on O & D as well.

         Reply
       • 25
         Lawrence Azrin says:

         May 18, 2012 at 1:12 pm

         WE’ve had this discussion about the timeline of who was regarded as the greatest third baseman of all-time before, so SORRY to repeat:

         When I first started following MLB in the late 60s, It was Pie Traynor who was generally considered the GOAT (greatest of all time) at third (this continued well into the 80/90s for some people). Jimmy Collins would get mentioned by real old-timers, but somehow Eddie Mathews and his 512 HR would be relegated to “oh yeah, he was great too…”.

         By the mid-70s Brooks was the consensus GOAT 3Bman till the late 80s, well after Mike Schmidt and George Brett had established himself as all-time greats. By the early 90s, Schmidt and Brett were the consensus #1/#2 GOAT 3Bmen, with grudging acknowledgement of Mathews.

         After 2000 Wade Boggs was added to the pantheon and Ron Santo get new respect through his re-evaluation by advanced stats-types, and in the last couple years Chipper Jones has getten a lot of recognition.

         So the latest rankings for the consensus GOAT 3Bman is roughly:
         - SCHMIDT (recognized as #1)
         - Brett or Mathews
         - Chipper Jones (sometimes in the above group)
         - Brooks or Boggs
         - Santo

         For current players, A-Rod, Rolen and Adrian Beltran also get mentioned.

         For pre-WWII players, HR Baker, Jimmy Collins,and Stan Hack have new appreciation.

         Traynor is out of the Top-10.

         The HOF voting for third basemen is seriously messed up. There are fewer of them than at any other position, and two of them (George Kell and Freddie Lindstrom) clearly don’t belong.

         Reply
         • 45
           bstar says:

           May 18, 2012 at 8:57 pm

           Now that Santo is in the Hall of Fame, though, who is left out there as a third baseman that should clearly be in? I can’t really think of anyone. Do we really want to venture into Graig Nettles/Darrell Evans territory? I don’t want to go there. The fact that there are so few third basemen in the Hall says more about there being fewer worthy candidates than it does bad voting by the BBWAA, in my humble opinion.
         • 46
           bstar says:

           May 18, 2012 at 9:05 pm

           The one exception is Dick Allen, who so clearly should be in the Hall it defies explanation. But I don’t really consider Dick to be a third baseman; he played more games at 1B than at third for his career.
   • 27
     John Autin says:

     May 18, 2012 at 1:48 pm

     Hartvig, it shouldn’t surprise us that “so many people didn’t seem to notice.” Third base is relatively underrepresented in the HOF; Santo’s election brought the number of HOF third sackers to 10, by my count (based on a requirement of 1,000 games played at 3B).

     Meanwhile, guys like Sal Bando, Graig Nettles, Buddy Bell, and of course B.James’s “most underrated player in the history of baseball,” Darrell Evans, remain relatively unsung.

     Reply
     • 35
       Hartvig says:

       May 18, 2012 at 4:09 pm

       And the chance of any of those 4 you listed ever getting into the Hall of Fame, however deserving, are unfortunately still worse than a snowball in hell.

       About the only currently eligible third baseman for the VC to vote on who has any chance at all would be Ken Boyer and he’s a 100 to 1 shot at best.

       At least when we’re making up a lineup of the best players not in the HOF we have a strong field at third base to choose from.

       Reply
       • 37
         Lawrence Azrin says:

         May 18, 2012 at 4:31 pm

         Does anyone know which third basemen have been considered by the VC in recent years? B-R only lists the VC inductees, not the ballots or the vote totals. I know that the HOF has released the actual vote totals in recent years.

         I found a few recent VC ballots on-line, and only saw Boyer’s name. Have Nettles or Bando or Dick Allen been considered yet?

         Reply
       • 49
         Steven says:

         May 18, 2012 at 10:22 pm

         Finally found Ken Boyer’s name mentioned. Thank You.

         Reply
         • 50
           Neil L. says:

           May 18, 2012 at 10:32 pm

           Steven, thank you for chiming in.

           But by what standard do you want Ken Boyer to be included in the pantheon of all-time great 3rd-baseman?
         • 52
           Steven says:

           May 19, 2012 at 8:36 am

           He played in the shadow of Eddie Mathews for much of his career, but put up consistent numbers from 1955-64. Like Ron Santo, he was pretty much done by the age of 35. He didn’t make it to the majors until he was 24, so his cumulative stats don’t match up to Robinson, Schmidt or Mathews. More importantly, my first glove was a Ken Boyer Rawlings Trap-Eze model.
4. 5
   Neil L. says:

   May 17, 2012 at 10:08 pm

   Doug, in creating the lists of games played at a position was it any portion of a game played defensively there or a start at that position?

   Just trying to drill down through all the good stuff in your blog and make sense of it for myself!

   In other words, Omar Vizquel’s total of 2702 games at shortstop does not include any games entered defensively at another position?

   Reply
   • 10
     Doug says:

     May 17, 2012 at 11:32 pm

     Neil,

     It was playing at that position at any point in the game. So, could be a starter, a defensive replacement, a PH or PR who stayed in the game, or player who started (or entered) the game at another position and moved to the position of interest, or some combination of above.

     Since I set my magic number at a fairly substantial 2000, I wanted to be as generous as possible in counting games.

     Reply
     • 11
       Neil L. says:

       May 17, 2012 at 11:40 pm

       Thank you, Doug.

       The career totals by position aren’t skewed very much by the defensive shift to another position, I’m sure.

       Reply
       • 22
         JDV says:

         May 18, 2012 at 12:47 pm

         I was thinking about ‘starts’ vs ‘appearances’ as well, and the list hardly moves. In fact, the top nine remain the same, while Cey nudges into the 10 spot ahead of Yost. So only Yost has appeared in, but not started, 2,000 G at 3B.

         But, in looking at starts, it is certainly less likely that all three will join the list this year. Rolen (1,937), Beltre (1,907) and Jones (1,893) have a mathematical chance, but Beltre might be the most realistic.

         Reply
5. 6
   Shping says:

   May 17, 2012 at 10:18 pm

   Good points, Neil, yet i both agree and disagree about Belanger. In late 1990s, for example, no way he cracks the offensive-minded lineups of anyone, esp. a team like the Mariners then. But right now in 2012, i think the M’s or A’s would view a slick-fielding .250-hitting SS as an improvement.

   Reply
   • 8
     Neil L. says:

     May 17, 2012 at 10:34 pm

     Hey, Shping. Thanks for the input. But at what point did Mark Belanger ever hit 0.250 consistently?

     Agreed about the Mariners or A’s accepting a light-hitting shortstop currently, but Belanger had three of seventeen seasons above 0.250, not counting his 1965 cup of coffee.

     His career 0.228 average makes him the poster child for no-bat, good-glove middle infielders of the run-starved sixties.

     Is Johnny Mac the closest to a modern-day equivalent of Mark Belanger?

     Reply
     • 19
       brp says:

       May 18, 2012 at 10:33 am

       I agree a guy like Belanger would have a tough time being a day-in, day-out starter year after year but I think he would always find work.

       His career OPS of .582 puts him above Clint Barmes, Cliff Pennington, Jimmy Rollins, Erick Aybar, and Alexei Ramirez’ 2012 seasons so far and right in line with Sean Rodriguez, Dee Gordon, and Jamey Carroll.

       Granted that’s not an apples-to-apples comparison (17 years vs. 30 games) but the point is there are plenty of SS in any given season that struggle to hit at all, and a glove like Belanger’s would keep him in the ML. Just maybe not as a 10-year starter.

       Reply
       • 23
         JDV says:

         May 18, 2012 at 1:04 pm

         It’s hard not to chime in about Belanger. He could play shortstop for me every day. Also, it may have held significance that he was the Orioles’ player rep for many years.

         Reply
         • 38
           brp says:

           May 18, 2012 at 4:37 pm

           If you had a good enough offensive lineup besides him, he could sit in the 9-hole for a decade on an AL team, I suppose.
         • 40
           Lawrence Azrin says:

           May 18, 2012 at 5:12 pm

           Belanger could take a walk (and a few HBP), steal a few bases, and stay out of GDP, so he wasn’t a total offensive sinkhole.

           I’m sure that Earl Weaver was aware of this. Plus, when his offense was _really_ wretched, Weaver started him a lot less. In 1970, 1972, and 1975, he started 109, 76, and 109 games. His OPS+ was 56, 42, and 64 (career: 68). So Weaver wasn’t starting Belanger regardless of how he hit.
6. 12
   Doug says:

   May 18, 2012 at 12:03 am

   So, here are those games with the most career experience for opposing starters at the same position.

   3B – Ron Santo and Brooks Robinson, June 16, 1974, approx. 4675 games
   SS – Omar Vizquel and Derek Jeter, May 1, 2010, approx. 4930 games (NOTE: Vizquel started at SS yesterday against the Yanks, but Jeter got the night off)

   I’ll post some more of them when I figure them out.

   Reply
   • 18
     nightfly says:

     May 18, 2012 at 10:10 am

     Is that career experience anywhere, or just at that position?

     Reply
     • 42
       Doug says:

       May 18, 2012 at 6:29 pm

       At that position.

       Reply
   • 43
     Doug says:

     May 18, 2012 at 7:49 pm

     Here’s some more “most experience” games, showing starters for the indicated game and total career game experience at that position.

     2B – Frank White and Willie Randolph, Sep 24, 1990, 4097 games
     1B – Fred McGriff and Mark Grace, Apr 7, 2003, 4346 games
     C – Ivan Rodriguez and Jason Kendall, Jun 23, 2010, 4309 games

     Reply
   • 44
     Doug says:

     May 18, 2012 at 8:39 pm

     Here’s some pitcher experience games.

     Relief – Jesse Orosco and Mike Plesac, May 3, 2003, 2220 games
     Starters – Phil Niekro and Don Sutton, Jun 8, 1987, 1586 games

     Reply
7. 15
   bstar says:

   May 18, 2012 at 6:16 am

   Doug, I hope you’re right in assuming Chipper Jones will reach 2,000 games at 3B for his career this season, but I’m not so sure he will get there. Even when nothing in particular is bothering him, Chipper has managed to play three consecutive days only once this yr; sitting out every third game has kind of become the norm for Jones this year. He’s got 24 games at third this year in the Braves’ first 39 games, which is a pace that would get him to the 85 more he needs to get to the 2,000 threshold. But if he spends a few small sessions more on the DL this year as he is want to do here lately, I’m a little worried he may not get to 2,000 before his last hurrah.

   Reply
8. 16
   PP says:

   May 18, 2012 at 7:02 am

   games aside, Chipper will join the 1600-1600 club soon, a darn small club it is

   Reply
   • 47
     bstar says:

     May 18, 2012 at 9:10 pm

     Chipper will also take over as the all-time leader for third basemen in RBI very soon; right now he’s ten behind Brett and Schmidt who are tied at 1,595.

     Reply
9. 28
   John Autin says:

   May 18, 2012 at 1:56 pm

   Good post, Doug. A couple of things I learned directly or indirectly from this:

   – Beltre’s BA in particular has been badly hurt by his home parks. Even after making up some ground with the friendly park in Texas last year, his home/road BA splits are .262/.290.

   – Brett played less than 63% of his career games at 3B — 1,692 out of 2,707. I knew of course that he had spent some time at 1B and DH in his later years, but I didn’t realize those games added up to about 3 full years’ worth at each spot.

   Reply
10. 29
    Paul E says:

    May 18, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Regarding Chipper Jones, how much further does he move up the 3B food chain if he can pad his stats with 3 seasons of full-time DH duty instead of playing in the field and missing time due to injuries?

    Guys like Molitor (couldn’ stay on the field much as a position player), Eddie Murray, Brett, Winfield, Thome, Reggie Jackson, etc…all moved up the all-time career lists and passed some significant milestones (3,000 hits, 500 HR’s, huge RBI totals) thanks to the DH

    Reply
    • 31
      Lawrence Azrin says:

      May 18, 2012 at 3:34 pm

      You know that Jones has already announced his retirement earlier this year? I suppose that he might change his mind if he were feeling in good health through the whole season, but even though he’s playing well, he’s already missed 12 of 39 games,and doesn’t seem to have gone more than a week without missing a game.

      I don’t think it’s a matter of playing the field vs. just dH-ing, it sounds like he’s ready to retire after this year.

      Also see bstar’s comment above in #15.

      Reply
      • 33
        Paul E says:

        May 18, 2012 at 3:44 pm

        No…I’m talking about Jones averaging 157 games played between age 24 and 31 versus 123 games played between age 32 and 39. That’s another 1- 1 1/2 years of accumulating – maybe 40 home runs and 150 runs scored and RBI as well as 200+ hits if he can DH and stay healthy. Just like Molitor, Jackson, Brett, Murray, Thome, etc…

        Reply
        • 36
          Lawrence Azrin says:

          May 18, 2012 at 4:09 pm

          SORRY! – I misunderstood you, that’s a very good point that Chipper could’ve added to his career stats if he had DH’d in the AL in the second half of his career.

          One small counterpoint, I don’t think that he’d have been a fulltime DH in the AL at 32. I know he’s not regarded as a great defensive third baseman, but I think he was adequate enough not to be moved to DH until age 36 or later.

          Plus, it’s possible that Chipper still could’ve gotten hurt if he were primarily a DH. Of course, it’s all pure conjecture on our part.

          Reply
        • 48
          bstar says:

          May 18, 2012 at 9:18 pm

          It’s nice to dream of numbers like that for Chipper, Paul. But I don’t think necessarily playing third base is what has hurt him physically so much; it’s just his aching body in general. Every time the guy has to slide, the entire Braves nation holds their collective breath. Any thoughts Chipper had of coming back next year were quickly quelched earlier this year when the Old Man went in for his millionth knee surgery.

          He will be sorely missed next year, though. The Braves are 18-5 this year when Chipper starts for them, 6-10 without.

          Reply
11. 41
    Lawrence Azrin says:

    May 18, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    #30,#32,#39 : Doubles In Fenway Park –

    Fenway has always been a great doubles park, obviously a lot of that is due to The Wall. It takes away some line-drive HRs, but gives back many many more doubles on medium-deep flies that would be outs almost everywhere else, but bounce of The Wall. Plus RS batters have the advantage that opposing LF/CFers don’t have experience in playing the Wall. There’s also that wierd part of the box seats down the third-base line that juts out.

    The Red Sox are first in doubles this year, and either 1st/2nd from 2007 on.

    Reply
12. 53
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