Omar Vizquel and the experience factor

The 2011 card image on the left identifies Omar Vizquel as a third baseman. Vizquel, though, wrapped up his 24-year career this week as the all-time leader in games played at shortstop, a mark that Derek Jeter may surpass in 2014 or later. Over his career, Vizquel has competed against rival shortstops ranging from Alan Trammell to Elvis Andrus. Among all those opponents, I was curious which one, paired with Vizquel, represented the most combined game experience ever at the position.

After the jump, I’ll look at the question of which historical games featured  starters having the most combined games experience at each position.

So, let’s get right into it. These are the games that I think involve opposing starters with the most combined games experience at their positions. The games experience shown is career games played at the indicated position as of (and including) the referenced game.

Position Game Total Games Player Games Player Games
Pitcher 1987-06-08 1586 Phil Niekro 850 Don Sutton 736
Catcher 2010-06-23 4306 Ivan Rodriguez 2330 Jason Kendall 1976
First Base 2003-04-20 4290 Fred McGriff 2162 Mark Grace 2128
Second Base 1990-09-24 4093 Frank White 2148 Willie Randolph 1945
Shortstop 2010-05-01 4817 Omar Vizquel 2684 Derek Jeter 2133
Third Base 1974-06-16 4656 Brooks Robinson 2546 Ron Santo 2110
Left Field 2007-08-02 5009 Barry Bonds 2684 Luis Gonzalez 2325
Center Field 1927-09-06 4828 Ty Cobb 2196 Tris Speaker 2632
Right Field 1972-05-10 4380 Roberto Clemente 2231 Hank Aaron 2149
Designated Hitter 2001-05-17 2596 Harold Baines 1634 Edgar Martinez 962
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 10/1/2012.

Any surprises? Let me know of any combos you think may top these.

Some notes:

Pitcher – This 1987 game also likely represented the greatest combined age (over 90 years) of opposing starters. The pair turned back the clock, both pitching into the 8th inning, as 48 year-old Niekro prevailed 2-0, allowing just 3 hits.

Catcher – Rodriguez and Kendall were both going strong, as each caught all 3 games of this series. The Royals prevailed 1-0 over the Nats, as Stephen Strasburg took a tough loss, the first of his career. Just behind this pair are Carlton Fisk and Bob Boone, who last started against each other on Sep 5, 1990, with a combined 4244 games of experience behind the plate.

First Base – The Crime Dog was still playing everyday as the 2003 season began, while Mark Grace was used only very occasionally in his final season. Another long-tenured first baseman was Andres Galarraga, also wrapping up his career this year (save for a single game at the first sack in 2004) with over 2000 career games at first.

Second Base –  This game meeting, in the final week of White’s career, was occasioned by Randolph’s trade from the Dodgers earlier that season. If someone wants to bet you that Frank White never played in the outfield, take the bet – White took his only turn in the outfield as a rightfielder in the 2nd to last game of his career (if anyone knows why, please tell us).

Shortstop –  Vizquel might have had an even more recent game represented here, except that Jeter was not playing or was not playing at shortstop when Omar started at short against the Yankees in 2011 and 2012. Despite a career OPS+ of only 82, Vizquel ranks first in games played among all players with a career OPS+ of 110 or less.

Third BaseScott Rolen and Adrian Beltre both passed the 2000 game mark at third base this year (and Chipper Jones ended up just a handful of games short of that milestone). Beltre conceivably could catch Robinson but, unless and until that happens, Brooksie remains the gold standard for hot corner longevity. The matchup represented here was occasioned by Ron Santo’s cross-town trade (the Cubs picked up 4 playes in the swap, including future Cy Yong winner Steve Stone) for his final season, and is one of only 28 games Santo played at third that year.

Left Field – Anyone else surprised to see Luis Gonzalez’s name here? He may have flown under the radar somewhat, but the man was nothing if not reliable – a 119 career OPS+ and 14 of his 18 seasons were within 20 points of that mark, one of the exceptions being his monster 2001 season for the WS champion D-Backs with 174 OPS+, 57 HR and 142 RBI. This is also a good trivia answer – for the question of what other record Barry Bonds set in the first week of August 2007.

Center Field – I had originally estimated 5000 games for Speaker and Cobb in center, but have been able to refine that to the total shown thanks to input from Lawrence Azrin and birtelcom. The game shown was the pair’s last against each other before becoming teammates in 1928 for the final season of both their careers. Probably the closest pair to Cobb and Speaker are Willie Mays and Willie Davis, with 4617 combined CF games on June 10, 1973.

Right Field – Hank Aaron was playing mostly first base by the 1972 season, and the game shown here was one of only 15 he played in right that year. In what would, tragically, be Clemente’s final season, he earned his 12th straight gold glove, and was an All-Star selection and also tallied MVP votes for the the 11th time in those 12 years.

Designated Hitter – As DHs seem to be made rather than born, rather fitting that Baines and Martinez should top this list as both were established players at other positions before switching to become DH specialists. Just behind them on the DH list are the pair of Don Baylor and Hal McRae with 2529 combined DH games at their last meeting on Apr 20, 1987.

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Gordon
Gordon
11 years ago

Nice concept, Doug, and great read.

To be honest, I’ve disliked Luis Gonzalez since that anomalous ’01 season. It didn’t sit well with me then and it appears even more disingenuous in retrospect.

Brent
Brent
11 years ago

On the Frank White in RF thing, it would appear to me that John Wathan might have simply ran out of players (hard to believe this, though, since the game was after September call ups). He had done a lot of pinchhitting/running/defensive replacements in the two innings before that and it appears that Gary Thurman, who was playing RF, might have been hurt on the play before White came in with one out in the bottom of the 9th. The last Angels’ hit was to RF and then he replaces Thurman with White. I would conclude that a) Thurman got… Read more »

deal
11 years ago

maybe this is a quirk in B-R but “only” 716 of Neikro’s games were starts.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/niekrph01.shtml

-p,

mosc
mosc
11 years ago

I guessed center field, right field, and catcher correctly. The only reason I got catcher is I seem to remember this coming up on the nationals broadcast? Maybe it was just part of the whole “experienced catcher working with amazing young talent” thing.

mosc
mosc
11 years ago
Reply to  mosc

and I’m not counting short as I thought you basically said as much.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

Shucks, did the Cobb/Speaker game have to be one where they both went 0 for 4?

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

The Fisk/Boone game had the added benefit of each being 42 years old. Rodriguez and Kendall were mere striplings of 38 and 35 in their meeting. (Kendall turned 36 soon after.)

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago

Doug: Have you checked Mike Schmidt-Buddy Bell?

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

FWIW, I just looked at Bell/Nettles, which seemed promising. Both were in the NL in 1988 (Bell with Houston mostly, Nettles with Montreal). But in the 6 games Bell played vs. MON, Nettles never played 3B.

And in ’87, Nettles didn’t *start* any games vs. Bell’s Reds.

So, 1986-08-18 is the latest date on which Nettles and Bell started at 3B against each other. Their total games at 3B through that date was 4,243 (2,333 for Nettles, 1,910 for Bell) — some 400 games behind Doug’s Brooksie/Santo game.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago

The ESPN Baseball Encycopedia (2007 edition, through the 2006 season) has the OF breakdowns by LF/ CF/ RF for almost all players pre-1918, including Cobb and Speaker.

I don’t have it in front of me right now, but Cobb was the regular RFer his first four full years (Sam Crawford was the regular CFer), so a lot of his OF games are not in CF. Speaker, by contrast,was such a great defensive player that he had only a handful of defensive games not in CF.

birtelcom
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

I looked at Retrosheet’s pages for Speaker and Cobb
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/S/Pspeat101.htm
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/C/Pcobbt101.htm

Retrosheet has Speaker at 2,690 career games in center field, with 58 of them, by my count, coming after that Sept 6, 1927 game. So that would come to 2,632 games in center through and including that game.

And Retrosheet has Cobb with 2,196 career games in center, 13 of which, if I counted correctly, came after the 9/6/1927 game. So that would mean 2,183 career games in center through and including 9/6/27.

topper009
topper009
11 years ago

How about managers, this game is the winner,
Connie Mack PHA 7613
Joe McCarthy BOS 3440

11,053

No other set of managers have more than that combined for their entire careers.

topper009
topper009
11 years ago
Reply to  topper009

Nevermind, Mack’s last career game was against Bucky Harris for the real manager experience winner
Mack PHA 7754
Harris WSH 3483

11,236

topper009
topper009
11 years ago

Another somewhat related idea to this post, this game featured starting DHs of:
Hank Aaron 3263
Frank Robinson 2798

of course the vast majority of their games were not as DHs

kds
kds
11 years ago

If we don’t restrict the record game to starters, I’m sure we can do more, especially with pitchers. Jesse Orosco was not a closer for much of his career, so there may be games toward his later days when there was an opposing pitcher who was also over 1000 games played as pitcher.

birtelcom
Editor
11 years ago

According to my calculations, Vizquel just missed taking third place on a list of the most regular season games played at any one position:
1. Brooks Robinson, 2,870 games at third base
2. Willie Mays, 2,832 games in center field
3. Barry Bonds, 2,715 games in left field
4. Omar Vizquel 2,709 games at shortstop
5. Tris Speaker, 2,690 games in center field
6. Eddie Collins 2,650 games at second base
7. Luis Aparicio 2,581 games at shortstop
8. Derek Jeter 2,531 games at shortstop
9. Joe Morgan 2,527 games at second base
10. Ozzie Smith 2,511 games at shortstop

Ron
Ron
11 years ago

Where did Al Kaline and Frank Robinson in Rightfield finish in games?

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Ron

Kaline had just over 2000 games in right field, Robinson had only 1271. Kaline played a fair amount of center field in the very late 50’s & early 60’s as well as some first base towards then end of his career with a few games in left & even at 3rd base sprinkled in for good measure. Robinson played over 800 games in left field and over 300 games at first base plus another 100 in center field and a few handful of games at third base as well. Assuming they both faced each other in right in 1972 (the… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Of course you’re right about the # of games- total brain fart on my part on the math- I think I added Robinson’s games in right & left field to arrive at my #

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
11 years ago

Jeter isn’t playing short in 2014.
Yankees trade Tiexiera and Nova to Miami for Jose Reyes.
Jeter and ARod share 3rd and 1st.

They also trade Granderson to the Reds for Billy Hamilton.
And sign Josh Hamilton to a three year deal.
Double Hamilton outfield with Gardner/Suzuki keeping it fresh.

bstar
11 years ago

I’d never have guessed McGriff/Grace at 1B in a million years.