Fred Clarke and HOF Player-Managers

Fred Clarke via Library of Congress

I just finished the Honus Wagner biography and I’ve been thinking a lot about Fred Clarke.

You know, naturally.

Clarke, of course, is a Hall of Fame outfielder. But I’ll bet you don’t hear about him very much, do you?

If a player doesn’t deserve to be in the Hall of Fame, you hear about that all the time. (How many times have you heard the names Bill Mazeroski or Chick Hafey? More than Clarke, right?). If he’s one of the all-time greats, he becomes immortalized. Clarke is stuck in between—not good enough to be remembered today and not bad enough to have his spot questioned.

Something else struck me about Clarke. Even if he never stepped up to the plate, he probably would have been a Hall of Famer. Completely independent of his Hall of Fame playing career, he was a Hall-worthy manager.

Clarke was named manager of a lousy Louisville Colonels team when he was just 24. After three seasons (the team improved in each), Barney Dreyfuss brought Clarke, Wagner, Rube Waddell, and Deacon Phillippe with him to Pittsburgh.

Clarke managed Pittsburgh through 1915, continuing as a full-time player through 1911. During that time, Pittsburgh won four pennants, but only played in two World Series (the pennants won 1901 and 1902 came before the World Series was introduced). The Pirates lost the first World Series to Boston in 1903, but won the championship in 1909. One has to think they would have had a good shot at another title in 1902, as the Pirates were 103-36.

Clarke’s teams finished 421 games over .500. Only five managers can boast a higher total (Earl Weaver was at 420). Only fourteen managers have won more than Clarke’s four pennants and just ten skippers (who managed for ten seasons or more) had a better winning percentage than Clarke’s .578.

I’m not here to debate whether or not managers have a place in the Hall of Fame. Obviously, Clarke benefited greatly from having Honus Wagner on his teams for nearly all of career. He was also lucky to have himself (as a player), Tommy Leach, and others. I am, however, confident in saying that a manager with Clarke’s credentials would be bound for Cooperstown, even with no playing career.

So, this led me to wonder… how many other men in baseball history have had a Hall-worthy playing career and a Hall-worthy managerial career?

Cap Anson

Cap Anson’s 348 games over .500 rank 11th all time, not quite on par with Clarke. But that’s partially a product of the short schedules played in the 19th century. Anson’s winning percentage was just about the same, however (.578). Anson’s teams won five pennants, but all came before the playoffs were introduced.

Anson was also a full-time manager for 19 of his 27 playing seasons. He certainly helped his own cause, collecting 3,435 hits, a 142 OPS+, and 91.1 WAR. He has a Hall Rating of 216, second all time among first basemen. His ranking among managers might be nearly as high.

Joe Torre

Joe Torre will have no problem gaining induction as a manager. He won four World Series with the Yankees (only three managers have won more) and made 15 playoff appearances (Bobby Cox is first with 16). His 2326 wins rank fifth all time. His .538 winning percentage isn’t off the charts, but his .605 percentage for the Yankees is what will get him in.

And that’s a shame.

What should have gotten him in is his playing career. As a catcher/first baseman/third baseman, Torre has a Hall Rating of 111, meaning he is somewhat comfortably deserving of a spot in the Hall of Fame. He won an MVP, he collected 2342 hits and a 129 OPS+. He’ll coast into the Hall as a manager, but that only means that his Hall-worthy playing career will be forgotten.

Which reminds me of…

John McGraw

John McGraw is probably the best manager of all time. He managed 33 years and won at a .586 clip. He places second all time with 2763 wins. He won ten pennants and three World Series. His spot in the Hall of Fame is unquestioned.

But as a player, McGraw was nearly as impressive, if not for as long. He was done as a player before he turned 30, but posted a staggering 135 OPS+. This was powered by a ridiculous .466 on-base percentage.

.466.

McGraw had fewer than 5000 plate appearances, but still had a Hall Rating of 97. He would have easily had a Hall of Fame career if it lasted just a bit longer. In 1899, McGraw played 117 games, walked 124 times, hit .391, and posted a .547 OBP. He also stole 73 bases. That was John McGraw. Possibly the best manager in history—and he easily could have been one of the best third basemen, too.

Frank Chance

Frank Chance only managed eleven seasons, but he won four pennants, two World Series, and a boatload of games. His .593 winning percentage ranks sixth all time while his 298 games over .500 rank 17th, one game behind Leo Durocher (who managed 24 seasons). In his eight seasons with the Cubs, his winning percentage was a staggering .664.

Chance was a player/manager for ten seasons (including two seasons where he played sparingly while managing the Yankees). He had a fairly short playing career, playing in 100 games only six times. But when he played, he played big. He had a 135 OPS+ and 43.5 WAR in just over 5000 plate appearances.

Chance (with Joe Tinker and Johnny Evers) is often dismissed as a weak Hall of Famer. His Hall Rating is 93—not quite Hall-worthy, but not an embarrassment (especially considering his career length). He’s in the Hall of Fame as a player, but his managerial career might be even more impressive.

There are other Hall of Fame players like Bill Terry, Joe Cronin, Hughie Jennings, and Red Schoendienst who had solid managerial careers. I don’t know if they were quite Hall-worthy, though.

Am I missing anyone?

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Dan McCloskey
Editor
11 years ago

I’d say you’ve got it covered, but a few player-managers worth mentioning are Clark Griffith (HOF as player, 1491-1367 record as manager), Joe Cronin (HOF as player, 1236-1055 as manager), Hughie Jennings (HOF as player, 1131-972 as manager), Lou Boudreau (HOF as player, sub-.500 record as manager but invented the infield shift), Frankie Frisch (HOF as player, 1138-1078 as manager).

Only Boudrea and Frisch won World Series (one each) among this group, so I doubt any of them are Hall-worthy as managers, but they were all fairly successful.

Dan McCloskey
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan McCloskey

I guess you did mention Cronin and Jennings, but I overlooked it. Still not as bad as Lawrence missing Frank Chance in big, bolded letters. 🙂

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan McCloskey

Dan (Adam below),

I’d resent that remark, if it weren’t true.

Brent
Brent
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan McCloskey

Hmm, Hughie Jennings seems close to Hall Worthy as a Manager, 3 pennants in his first three years as a manager (although they never won the WS) and another year that his team won 100 games but his team did not win the pennant. His managerial qualifications are pretty close to Whitey Herzog, who had about 100 more wins, but a much lower winning %, but who did manage to win thie WS once out of his three pennants. I guess Jennings should have asked his best player to hit better than .262/.314/.362 with only 4 SBs (and 3 CS)… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago

Frank Chance would be an excellent addition to this list. While his playing career was short (1288 G/5103 PA) and he had serious in-season durability issues (130 or more games only once/100 or more games only six times), he was probably the best first baseman beween A-B-C (Anson/Brouthers/Connor) and George Sisler. He had an OPS+ of 150+ four straight years and was in the Top-10 in WAR for position players five straight years, 1903-1907, which was a nice peak. For those who prefer more conventional stats, he led the NL in runs, stolen bases twice and OBA. He might hve… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  Adam Darowski

Adam,

OOPS! I guess that I didn’t scroll down far enough for Chance.

Trs Speaker din’t have as long a managerial career as the others Dan mentioned in #1 above, but a 617-520 record, six out of eight first-division finishes, and of course the 1920 World Series, are pretty good.

Approaching this from the other end, Lou Pinella doesn’t have close to a HOF career as a player, but may make it one day as a manager- 1835-W/1713-L and one WS win (+ the 116 W season in 2001) over 23 seasons are decent credentials.

Brent
Brent
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Speaker’s career as a manager almost certainly was shortened by whatever happened in Judge Landis’s office after the Cobb/Speaker “game-fixing” scandal. Neither ever managed again. In Cobb’s case, that makes sense because a) he was an indifferent manager and b) He made a bunch of money investing in Coca Cola and didn’t need to manage. In Speaker’s case, one must believe that he was advised that he would never manage again, because he was a pretty good manager and probably could have used the money.

Doug
Doug
11 years ago

You mentioned Maz as an obvious example of a bad HOF selection. That being said, Miller Huggins actually had more career WAR at 2nd base than did Mazeroski, and did so in almost 1600 fewer PA. Huggins also finishes ahead of Maz on JAWS, HOF Standards, and HOS.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Fortunately, Doug, Maz is excused from objective analysis because he hit the happiest home run in baseball history. Hopefully Luis Gonzalez and Josh Beckett get the same exemption someday.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Joe Carter’s famous 1993 WS HR doesn’t seem to have gotten him any break _at all_ from purely objective analysis amongst many people at this site. OPS+ and him are not friends.

Dan McCloskey
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

You’ve got to look a little harder to see what the three players Bryan refers to have in common. Joe Carter doesn’t match up, walk-off World Series HR notwithstanding.

Let’s just say in response to someone from his neck of the woods I might suggest David Tyree as a pro football Hall of Famer.

Brent
Brent
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan McCloskey

What you are saying is that George Brett would also qualify for the exemption, if he needed one. I guess you could add Johnny Podres to the list. And Lew Burdette. And maybe Tim McCarver (although his heroics were not in the final game) Grover Cleveland Alexander, like Brett, doesn’t need an exemption. This was kind of fun!!

Ed
Ed
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan McCloskey

Also provides the little extra edge that Edgar Martinez needs to get elected. And we might as well put the entire 2004 Red Sox team in the HOF. 🙂

Jason Z
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan McCloskey

Succeeded “the immaculate reception” as the greatest catch in NFL history. Case closed.

I think it is his last catch.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

I don’t see any others who meet both criteria. Billy Southworth is in the HOF as a manager, and had a good playing career I do think Davey Johnson winds up in the Hall as a manager, and he was a good player, but his playing career was far too short for the HOF. Dusty Baker had a good long career as a player, but still well short of Hall-worthy. As a manager, he probably needs a WS title to make the Hall, or at least another couple of pennants. Alvin Dark *might* have had a shot at the Hall… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

On the flip side … Moose Stubing has the modern record for winless games as a manager (0-8 with the Angels at the end of 1988), and also went 0 for 5 in his brief playing career, with 4 strikeouts.

Brent
Brent
11 years ago

Has anyone ever dug into why John McGraw the manager decided, rather abruptly, that John McGraw the player needed to be replaced? In 1900(as a 27 year old) as just a player, he had an OPS+ of 157 in 99 games. In 1901 as a player/manager he dropped his games to 73 (his OPS+ was still 171). In 1902, he only played 55 games (his OPS+ did drop to 117, so he wasn’t as good as before but still respectable). In 1903, he basically had become a full time manager, playing only 12 games. In 1901, in the games where… Read more »

Dan McCloskey
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Brent

This is from McGraw’s SABR BioProject page:

The Giants finished last that season but rose to second in 1903, even though McGraw’s much-injured knee finally gave out for good during spring training that year, effectively ending his career as a player.

Brent
Brent
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan McCloskey

Thanks. That makes sense. The next year (1904) he found Art Devlin who turned out to be a pretty good third sacker. (

Ed
Ed
11 years ago
Reply to  Brent

I also found an SI article that mentioned that McGraw was an “old 30”. Along with injuries, he had battled malaria and typhoid fever. The article also mentions that early in the ’03 season he was hit in the face with a ball which smashed his nose and affected his sinuses and made him vulnerable to respiratory infections.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1029536/2/index.htm

Ed
Ed
11 years ago

Great post Adam! Would love to see a follow-up that looked at people who could make the Hall of Fame if their entire career were taken into consideration, both as a player and as a manager. Someone like Dusty Baker for example. His 34.2 career WAR as a player isn’t good enough for the Hall, nor is his 1581 wins with only 1 NL pennant as a manager. But what if his accomplishments could be looked at in total? Would he then be Hall worthy? I’m sure there are lots of other examples. I realize that under current rules, this… Read more »

Brent
Brent
11 years ago
Reply to  Ed

Well, I would say despite his long playing career (2200+ hits), Charlie Grimm was short on accomplishment as a player (10.2 WAR), but he did manager the Cubs’ last three pennant winners. Billy Martin was a WS hero as a player and was a pretty remarkable manager (but a controversial one and also the Terminator of quite a few starting pitchers’ careers). Someone mentioned Pinella earlier. Scioscia and Davey Johnson probably are future HOFers anyway, but if they aren’t then would seem to fit into Dusty’s category.

Jason Z
11 years ago
Reply to  Ed

Or maybe Felipe Alou??

39.2 WAR as a player. 113 OPS+.

The managerial case is pretty weak, but
I am thinking about the combination of
both as you propose.

He did finish first once in 03 with the Giants.
Also, what might have been in 1994…

Doug
Doug
11 years ago
Reply to  Ed

Some others:
– Jim Fregosi – 45.5 WAR plus 15 seasons managing, including one pennant.
– Gil Hodges – 40.7 WAR plus 9 seasons managing, including one WS title.
– Roger Peckinpaugh – 40.6 WAR plus 8 seasons managing, no pennants.
– Larry Dierker – 31.8 WAR plus 5 seasons managing, including 4 division titles.
– Mike Hargrove – 27.4 WAR plus 16 seasons managing, including two pennants.
– Phil Garner – 26.5 WAR plus 15 seasons managing, including one pennant.
– Burt Shotton – 21.4 WAR plus 11 seasons managing, including two pennants.

Jason Z
11 years ago
Reply to  Doug

You have some nice ones Doug. Gil Hodges intrigues me the most. There was always such emotion with Gil Hodges and the HOF. I guess because he died so young. If he had survived it is quite likely he makes a HOF case strictly as a manager. Imagine that he wins a second WS in 73. And then further imagine that he survives to manage the Mets during the mid 80’s. He could have been the NL equivalent of Earl Weaver, both in timing and success. As a player he had 8 consecutive seasons with an OPS+ of between 120-142.… Read more »

Ed
Ed
11 years ago

Wikipedia has some interesting tidbits on Clarke’s post playing/managing days (he stopped managing at age 42). “After his managing days ended in 1915, Clarke eventually returned to the Pirates, first as a coach, later as a vice president and assistant manager. As an assistant to Barney Dreyfuss in 1926, he was allowed to sit on the Pirates’ bench but, on August 13, players requested that he be removed. Instead, Pirates ownership responded by releasing veteran players, Carson Bigbee and Babe Adams, and waived slumping veteran (and eventual Hall of Famer), Max Carey.” “In 1947, while ice fishing in northern Minnesota,… Read more »

Doug
Doug
11 years ago

What do people think of Frank Robinson’s managerial record? I was impressed that Robinson was usually able to guide those Expos teams to respectable finishes. Montreal had zero ability to attract name free agents or retain any star talent they developed once they became UFAs, witness Pedro, Larry Walker, Vlad, etc. Also, he took the Orioles to within 2 games of the 1989 AL East title, just a year after a 54-107 finish, a nifty 33 game improvement. Baltimore was just a game back going into Toronto for the final series, and took a lead into the eighth inning of… Read more »

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
11 years ago

During its very short life, I played on online game called Baseball Boss. Fred Clarke was a monster in that game. I knew who Fred Clarke was before then, but boy did Baseball Boss help focus my attention. I owned every Fred Clarke card I could get my hands on. What gets me about Fred Clarke the real live baseball player is all those 220 triples. He led the league only once. He hit triples the way I drink coffee in the morning, steadily and with no alarm. I know it was a different time and different context 11 decades… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

Not meaning to diminish Clarke’s trebling, but all observations of Pirates’ triples totals should be tempered by the fact that they played in great triples parks.

Even before moving to the well-known triples haven of Forbes Field full-time in 1910, Pittsburgh led the NL in triples in 1900, 1902-04 and 1908-09, all by hefty margins, and were close to the lead the other years of that decade.

Jason Z
11 years ago

Just some thoughts in regards to Ed’s proposal @14 to take
the entire career into consideration going beyond just manager.

How about Tim McCarver as a player/broadcaster?

Bill White-player/broadcaster/league executive.

Jim Kaat-played/broadcaster.

Jery Remy-player/broadcaster.

Ken Singleton-player/broadcaster.

Mike Shannon-player/broadcaster.

This is just off the top of my head.

Max
Max
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason Z

Doesn’t that actually cost McCarver points? I’d have to put him far below replacement broadcasters, at least at this point in his career.

Jason Z
11 years ago
Reply to  Max

McCarver is somewhat like Cosell in that people either
love him or hate him.

Howard
Howard
11 years ago

I knew that Clarke was a HOF player when as a kid I read in the 1975 Baseball Encyclopedia that in 1897 Clarke had 206 hits in 209 ABs for a .986 BA. It was in a book so I believed it. Sadly, later editions corrected the mistake.

Atlcrackersfan
Atlcrackersfan
11 years ago

What about HOF players who weren’t very successful as managers or player managers.
Rogers Hornsby 14 years (12 as player ?) and a .463 W/L %

Mel Ott 7 years (6 playing) and a .467 W/L %

Ty Cobb 6 years and a .519 W/L %

Ted Williams deserves special mention 4 seasons for the 2nd Senators / Rangers with a .429 W/L % each season’s record worse than the one before.

Yogi Berra 5 seasons and essentially a .500 record.

There are others, less familiar today!

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Atlcrackersfan

Hornsby has to be the worst manager in history not because of his record but because there is something seriously wrong with you when your players have to go over your head to the owner to try and get you to stop pissing in the showers.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

On 6/10/52 Hornsby was fired from his manager’s job with the Browns by owner Bill Veeck. The players were so overjoyed with being freed from Hornsby’s tyranny that they presented Veeck with a trophy.