Circle of Greats 1958 Ballot, Part 2

This post is for voting and discussion in the twelfth round of balloting for the Circle of Greats. This round adds those players born in 1958 who were not included in the first 1958 round. Rules and lists are after the jump.

41 players were born in 1958 and played in at least ten seasons of major league baseball. 20 of those (players with last names beginning A through H) were added as eligible in the previous round. The other 21 players in the born-in-1958 group are being added this round.

As always, each ballot cast must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots, but less than 50%, earn two years of extended eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances (or who appear on at least 10% of the ballots) wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EST on Tuesday, March 19 11:00 PM EDT on Wednesday, March 20, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EST Sunday, March 17.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: 1958-Pt 2 COG Vote Tally . I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1958 group will be added as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The holdovers (who now total 13 guys) are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The new group of 1958 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons they played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Tom Glavine (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Tony Gwynn (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Barry Larkin (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Wade Boggs (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Larry Walker (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Tim Raines (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kenny Lofton(eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1958, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues, last name starts with letters I through Z):
Alan Trammell
Willie McGee
Don Slaught
Dickie Thon
Rafael Ramirez
Mike Scioscia
Pete O’Brien
Pat Tabler
Gary Pettis
Domingo Ramos
John Shelby
Tim Teufel
Chico Walker
Ron Kittle
Glenn Wilson

Pitchers (born in 1958, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues, last name starts with letters I through Z):
Dave Righetti
Bill Krueger
Tim Leary
Dan Petry
Walt Terrell
Matt Young

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Mike
Mike
11 years ago

Smoltz
Gwynn
Boggs

mosc
mosc
11 years ago

Well, we’re still lacking one Lou Whitaker but we’re almost to the peak of our middle infield depth chart. I will abstain in Lou’s honor from picking between them until next year. Also the other 2/3rds of the Atlanta trio can wait some more years to get sorted out against better competition.

And I think Boggs is the best player so I’ll vote for him too.

Boggs, Gwynn, Raines

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
11 years ago

Tony Gwynn, Roberto Alomar, Edgar Martinez.

GrandyMan
GrandyMan
11 years ago

Player ranking as per Actual Value calculation (defined in my post in the 1959 round): Boggs 120.9 Glavine 107.1 Walker 104.3 Larkin 98.7 Trammell 97.2 Smoltz 97.0 Brown 95.4 Sandberg 94.5 Lofton 94.5 Martinez 94.4 Gwynn 93.4 Raines 92.9 Alomar 88.8 Biggio 85.5 This truly gets more difficult every round. I won’t hold out on Boggs. He is head-and-shoulders above the rest, and I will always vote for a clearly superior candidate even if he doesn’t need my help. After this, it turns into a logjam. My next four players, in order, would be Glavine, Larkin, Walker, and Smoltz, none… Read more »

Chris C
Chris C
11 years ago

Boggs, Biggio, Raines

And a shout out to Gary Pettis for autographing my Holyoke Millers program back in 1980.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

He was also crazy fun to watch when he turned on the afterburners in the outfield or on the basepaths as well

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
11 years ago

Boggs
Walker
Glavine

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago

Total Sophie’s choice. There’s maybe a 10% difference between the 2nd and 14th best player on this ballot and a very reasonable case could be made for 7 or 8 of these guys as the second best. I am absolutely convinced that 11 of these guys belong in the Circle and leaning towards 2 others. At pitcher I am absolutely sold on Glavine & Smoltz. I’ll have to leave it to others to make a case for Brown. At second I sold on Sandberg & pretty sure about Biggio & Alomar. At short I’m certain that Trammell and Larkin are… Read more »

mosc
mosc
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

An early vote and one showing the main threat to Boggs this year being people excluding him in favor of more marginal candidates. Coupled with Trammel love on that first year boost all candidates need in this process, Boggs may lose this year. It’s ballots that have Trammel and no Boggs vs those with Boggs and no Trammel that will decide it. I don’t like how people voting for both don’t have much say in who wins this year and also have fewer spots to support other candidates. That’s the Sophie’s choice for me. Different issue I guess, same problem.

Ed
Ed
11 years ago
Reply to  mosc

So far only three people have voted for Trammel and not Boggs. So this is a complete non-issue. Boggs has a 41-16 vote edge over Trammel. Boggs will win. Easily.

David Horwich
David Horwich
11 years ago

Boggs, Larkin, Trammell.

Of the rest of the holdovers, I would also vote “yes” on Alomar, Biggio, Glavine, Gwynn, Raines, Sandberg, and Smoltz; “no” on Brown; and “maybe” on Lofton, Martinez, and Walker.

I expect Boggs will win this round. The next round should be very interesting…

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
11 years ago

I’m picking 1,2,3 in my batting order.

1. Get on, steal a base, and play elite defense.
2. Take pitches, let the leadoff guy steal, then get a hit. (and play elite defense)
3. Thump it. (and field it)

Lofton
Boggs
Walker

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago

– Boggs
– Trammell
– Raines

This time I’m going for guys who, in 1987, would’ve been better choices for the MVP award than the _actual_ winners (Gwynn would’ve been another good choice).

Max
Max
11 years ago

Boggs, Trammell, Glavine.

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
11 years ago

Biggio, Boggs, Gwynn.

PP
PP
11 years ago

Boggs, Larkin, Glavine

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
11 years ago

Wade Boggs
Larry Walker
Kevin Brown

The next three guys on my list are Alan Trammell, Barry Larkin, and Ryne Sandberg – all middle infielders, and all within a hairsbreadth of one another, in my opinion. But I’m anticipating a big win for Boggs here…

ProfessorLarry
ProfessorLarry
11 years ago

Boggs, Larkin, Raines

The Diamond King
11 years ago

Boggs, Gwynn, Smoltz

KalineCountry Ron
11 years ago

Trammell, Boggs, Raines.

KalineCountry Ron
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Thankyou Birtelcom.

Abbott
Abbott
11 years ago

Glavine, Biggio, Boggs

ATarwerdi96
11 years ago

Larry Walker, Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn

Artie Z
Artie Z
11 years ago

Boggs, Larkin, Raines

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
11 years ago

Raines, Alomar, Gwynn

T-Bone
T-Bone
11 years ago

Lobbying for favorites to stay around and not necessarily for the Best of the Best since others will take care of that this round.

Lofton
Raines
Sandberg

Nadig
Nadig
11 years ago

Boggs, Walker, Gwynn.

jeff b
jeff b
11 years ago

Boggs walker and smoltz

Doug
Doug
11 years ago

Smoltz, Walker, Martinez

Joel
Joel
11 years ago

Boggs, Glavine, Gwynn

RonG
RonG
11 years ago

Smoltz, Boggs, Sandberg

Jeff Hill
Jeff Hill
11 years ago

Boggs, Gwynn, Raines…

J.R. Lebert
J.R. Lebert
11 years ago

Gwynn, Raines, Biggio

Phil
11 years ago

Gwynn, Alomar, Glavine.

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
11 years ago

Boggs, Glavine, Sandberg

Tom
Tom
11 years ago

Boggs, Martinez, Walker

qx
qx
11 years ago

Tom Glavine, Wade Boggs, Larry Walker

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
11 years ago

Wade Boggs
Larry Walker
Tom Glavine

Nick Pain
Nick Pain
11 years ago

Boggs, Raines, Larkin

JasonZ
11 years ago

Boggs, Gwynn and Raines

John Z
John Z
11 years ago

I want to begin by congratulating Mr. Henderson on being “The Greatest Ever” at least in his mind. Secondly I would like to review last rounds ballot, if only for my own sanity, and quote the 1981 movie “Stripes” “There’s something wrong with us, something very, very wrong with us. Something seriously wrong with us . . .” when Julio Franco receives the same vote total (3) as Craig Biggio and John Smoltz. This round is a bit of a challenge to my voting prowess; but thy will be done, I will only choose those veterans born in 58′. The… Read more »

Chris C
Chris C
11 years ago
Reply to  John Z

In the same post you’re complaining about votes for Julio Franco and casting a vote for Dave Righetti? 🙂

John Z
John Z
11 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Not a complaint just an observation, and as mentioned in my post I only choose those veterans from that specific years ballot. I suppose i could have gone with Orel Hershiser (58′ part 1) again, but his name does not appear any where on this ballot, and Rags story is a good story. I can imagine a young 3 year old Rags sitting under his Dad (Leo), also a minor league veteran, arm watching those SanFran Giants and Stretch, The Say Hey Kid, Baby Bull and some rookie by the name of Gaylord Perry lose that 62′ series to the… Read more »

bstar
bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  John Z

John Z, you’re a MADman. When you stole that cow, and your friend tried to make it with the cow, I wanna party with you, cowboy. You and me together? Forget it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTwIwfvNJLk

John Z
John Z
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I don’t know whether to be very concerned that you associate with this line from Stripes, or to laugh out loud because after all, it is Stripes (an American Classic) IMO. I’d prefer to chose the latter, Bravo Zulu bstar.

bstar
bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  John Z

Yeah, was just supplying some lines from my favorite Murray speech of that movie, most of which he improvised on the spot.

No, I was not implying that bestiality is one of my passions. 🙂

John Z
John Z
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I concur Bstar, Bill Murray is genius. Here is a quote from Murray after filming Stripes. “I’m still a little queasy that I actually made a movie where I carry a machine gun. But I felt if you were rescuing your friends it was okay. It captured what it was like on an Army base: It was cold, you had to wear the same green clothes, you had to do a lot of physical stuff, you got treated pretty badly, and had bad coffee.”

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago

Career Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons:

Boggs 59.2
Walker 48.6
Larkin 45.5
Trammell 45.1
Brown 43.2
Glavine 42.2
Martinez 41.6
Smoltz 40.2
Lofton 39.5
Sandberg 39.1
Alomar 37.3
Raines 37.2
Gwynn 36.8
Biggio 36.7

I’m going to give Walker the round off after his WBC performance and vote for two deserving pitchers, one who’s picking up steam and another who seems to be fading.

Boggs
Brown
Smoltz

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

This election got me thinking about two players I held in similar esteem when I was a kid, and the way my understanding of baseball has evolved since then. Wade Boggs and Tony Gwynn each won four batting titles between 1984 and 1989. Neither had Darryl Strawberry’s power or Rickey Henderson’s speed, and I’m not sure I ever thought of them as the two best hitters in the game, but batting average meant a lot to me, and I expected them both to win the batting title every year. ’84 to ’89 represents something the prime of each guy’s career,… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

#47 –

I’d pick Rickey Henderson and Mike Schmidt ahead of both of them.

I’m sure someone can run a B-R search to see who has the most WAR for the decade. However, I would also consider peak.

bstar
bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

The term “pure hitter” to me connotes hitting for average. Power is an afterthought. It’s normally given to players who can win batting titles, whether they have power or not. So Albert Pujols and Miggy are pure hitters as well as the Gwynns & Carews of the world. In that vein, I think I’d call Gwynn the best “pure hitter” of the ’80s. Put Gwynn in Fenway and put Boggs in Jack Murphy Stadium all those years. Does Gwynn win 12 batting titles? How many would Boggs have? Maybe two at most? Boggs is a better overall player, but from… Read more »

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

I was actually trying to poke a little fun at the phrase “pure hitter”, which I consider a relic from the time when batting average was so tied to hitting talent that the winner of the league batting title won a car. Boggs was both the best at one small element of hitting in the decade and the most valuable player on this ballot. If I have to defend Boggs against Brett and Gwynn, I’ll point out that Boggs’ .352 average in the ’80s was .20 points higher than Gwynn’s and .41 higher than Brett’s. Of course, that’s not park-adjusted… Read more »

bstar
bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

OPS+ and wRC+ include value from walks, and I don’t think the term “pure hitter” has anything at all to do with patience/lack thereof at the plate. Also, what would Gwynn’s BA in the ’80s have been if he played in Fenway? How about Boggs in San Diego? Also, Boggs finished with the highest OPS+/wRC+ during the ’80s because of Fenway. In road OPS during the eighties, Boggs’ .828 ranks 14th, between Tim Raines and Kirk Gibson. Home OPS? Boggs is first by a mile (1.017). Mike Schmidt was the only other guy to top .950 in the eighties at… Read more »

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

bstar, of course Boggs wasn’t a better hitter than Schmidt. Is anyone suggesting that? Schmidt matched Boggs’ prime wRC+ in his age 30 to 39 seasons. I have a bit of a problem using road stats as a substitute for park-adjusted overall stats. Just as raw stats oversell players who play half their games in hitters’ parks, road stats sell short those same guys because they don’t get any benefit from their parks. A current Rockie gets about 35% of his road at bats in LA, SF, and SD, three extreme pitchers’ parks, and none of them in Denver. Do… Read more »

mosc
mosc
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

It’s strange to me that when I think of “better hitter”, I don’t think of a better offensive player I think of a guy who makes good contact, plate coverage, and eye. Boggs was an near flawless hitter on those categories, he just had fairly average power. Brett was a better bat (different term to me for some reason?) and certainly a more threatening figure in run scoring situations and in close games. I’d vote for Brett over Boggs, with some hesitation due to era played and positional adjustment, but does anybody else differentiate hitting as a separate science? Maybe… Read more »

bstar
bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Bryan- Here’s the all-time list for highest home tOPS+ (home OPS relative to overall OPS, w/ minimum 3000 PA): 1. Bobby Doerr – 125 2. Cy Williams – 124 3. Dante Bichette – 124 4. Chuck Klein – 122 5. Larry Walker – 120 6. Todd Helton – 119 7. Ron Santo – 118 8. Wade Boggs – 118 The fact that Walker and Boggs are in the top eight all-time (at least as far back as the Split Finder goes) and have both come up recently in these discussions is more of a coincidence than anything. The coincidence has… Read more »

Jeff Hill
Jeff Hill
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Hmmm…once agian proving my Coors field point against Larry Walker. 3 of the top 8 all time came from Coors…

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Reply to #98:

Walker’s OPS+ at Coors Field only is 141 and Boggs’ at Fenway only is 131.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

From #127: Make that tOPS+.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Just out of curiosity I checked the tOPS+ splits for a few more players.

Hank Greenberg came in at 119
Yaz was 115
Ernie Banks was 113
Mel Ott was at 106 (Bill James said in one of his books that the Polo Grounds were a great home run park but not necessarily a great park for hitters)
Mays, Aaron, Kaline, Mantle & Teddy Ballgame all came in between 102 & 106
Joe DiMaggio was at 92- maybe he does belong in the conversation along with Cobb & Mantle & Mays after all.

bstar
bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Richard @128 I used 3000 PA as a qualifier for my search @98, but after Hartvig pointed out that Hank Greenberg slipped through the cracks I realized I was doing min. 3000 PA AT HOME. I really had to finagle with the Split Finder to get the results and am having trouble regenerating the same list I got @98 but with 1500 PA at home as the qualifier. I don’t know how I did it, because I’m getting no results now. Can you offer any assistance? I’m lost on this thing. I’m just looking for highest career home tOPS+ with… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Reply to #131: bstar:I fooled around with the PI bating split finder and here’s what I got. I selected Career, Home or Away, Home, checked the “Compare this split..” box, sorted by OPS and selected difference between total and split. At the top of the list are several of the players you mentioned. Copy and paste that list (first page only) into a spreadsheet. Then do the same thing for the Away games in ascending order and the same players will appear at the top of that list. Copy and paste that list (first page only) onto the same spreadsheet,… Read more »

bstar
bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Ok, thanks, Richard. Somehow I DID get a tOPS+ list yesterday for all-time highest at home. I just can’t remember what I did.

Thanks for the effort.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

bstar:

By George I did it!

Click on Career, Home or Away, Home, Sort by OPS and set PA greater than 1500. Then click Get Report and scroll to the extreme right-hand column and sort.

bstar
bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Seriously not two minutes ago I realized the same thing! It was already in the table! Thanks again. So, long story short, if you cut it down to 1500 PA at home, there are a lot more players with a tOPS+ between 125 and 118. My list @98 was for longer careers, and since this thread is about players of Hall worthiness, I think I’m going to stick with those numbers, but use 3000 PA at home as the qualifier instead of 3000 AB: highest tOPS+ at home, min. 3000 PA at home: 1. Bobby Doerr – 125 2. Cy… Read more »

bstar
bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Richard, if you’re still around: If Boggs’ tOPS+ at Fenway is 131 and Walker’s is 141 at Coors, in your opinion is it correct to say this?

Boggs tOPS+ at Fenway/everywhere else = 131/69
Walker tOPS+ at Coors/everywhere else = 141/59

I think that is correct. I just need to bounce it off someone to make sure. If it’s true, wow. Those numbers are staggering.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Reply to #137: I would say it is not correct to say that because only 35.4% of Boggs’ PA were at Fenway and only 31.1% of Walker’s were at Coors. Reply to #129: DiMaggio’s home/road stats are skewed due to the left-center and center field Death Valleys at the old Stadium. In looking at Joe’s home/road splits it is seen that he did better on the road in every category except triples, which is to be expected. It was noted on this web-site recently that his 65 HR road/home differential is the largest. Also I noted that he is the… Read more »

koma
koma
11 years ago

Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, Craig Biggio

brp
brp
11 years ago

One vote for the deserving winner, Boggs. Then strategy votes:
Trammell
E. Martinez

We really need to clear this SS/2B logjam soon!

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago

Boggs, Gwynn, Martinez

BryanM
BryanM
11 years ago

Boggs, walker , trammelll. I don’t think any of the three get enough credit for their defense , Boggs is the best player on the ballot, the other two are there to let me give a shout out tot the glove men. We seem to be able to see the one- dimensional players more clearly, Trammell had an 8 WAR season in 87 without leading the league in anything. How often has that been done? The man was a Ballplayer and s/b in the HOF by now

mosc
mosc
11 years ago
Reply to  BryanM

I question walker’s image as a defensive force. He was a decent outfielder defensively… which is a nice way of saying a skill position washout. I refuse to give him defensive credit compared to somebody like Biggio (who he has 5DWAR on) or view him as a tremendous defensive asset in comparison to Gwynn (who he has 10 DWAR on). Young Tony Gwynn was an extremely underrated outfielder. His year 29 season GG with -2.9 DWAR (1989) makes me queasy to look at. I mentioned before that the Walker to Sheffield comparison is an interesting one. There is a staggering… Read more »

BryanM
BryanM
11 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Mosc , of course defensive stats are somewhat weaker than hitting stats, so we are always free to say that a player was not as good as his stats show. I saw Walker play in Montreal, and I would have called him an excellent right fielder, not a decent one , what I was trying to say is that credit should be given to players who play their position well, I know that RF is not as hard a defensive position as some, but it still helps to have someone out there who knows what they are doing, In Trammell’… Read more »

Atlcrackersfan
Atlcrackersfan
11 years ago

Glavine
Smoltz
Gwynn

Tim Pea
Tim Pea
11 years ago

I’m surprised it took Eddie Mathews 5 years to get into the HoF.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  Tim Pea

Third basemen have always had a tough time with the HOF; it was the last position to have a player inducted – Jimmy Collins, 1945 (unless you count McGraw in 1937, but he was in as a manager). Third base was also the last position elected by the BBWAA – Pie Traynor in 1948. After Traynor, another third baseman was not inducted into the HOF till 1955 – Home Run Baker. I count 62 players in the HOF by 1955, and only _three_ of them are third basemen. There are only 12 MLB third basemen now in the HOF (13… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

You could make the argument that virtually every one of the third basemen that you listed are better than Kell, as well.

I can accept the fact that maybe there are only 6 or maybe 7 Circle of Greats caliber third baseman (if you’re not counting Molitor & Martinez) because the bar is so much higher than for the Hall of Fame. But only 12 in the Hall of Fame- especially when you figure that 2 of them don’t belong- is just silly.

Arsen
Arsen
11 years ago

Boggs, Trammell, and Smoltz. I don’t think I realized how good Boggs really was. He was always behind Mike Schmidt and George Brett in my mind. Still is, but there is a lot of room to be a great player. Trammell and Larkin are just about even. I think Trammell’s 1987 season was the best between the two of them so I’ll give him a hesitant nod. Smoltz. I give him bonus points for his performance as a closer. I know those years are seen as less valuable, but I think given the context of his career it was an… Read more »

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Arsen

per B-R
Boggs: 88.3 WAR, 57.5 WAA, peak seasons worth 9, 8.3, 8.2
Brett: 84.0 WAR, 50.7 WAA, peak seasons worth 9.3, 8.4, 8.1

Fangraphs gives the overall WAR edge to Brett, 91.5 to 90.7. Certainly not black-and-white, but I’d take Boggs by a beard hair.

PP
PP
11 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Never do I recall a time when Boggs was thought of as a better player than Brett. I lived in Boston in the 80s and Boggs, obviously a great hitter and deserving HOFer, never struck the fear in an opponent or had the explosive impact in a game or a series as Brett did. This is one of the cases where I part with WAR. I just don’t (didn’t) see how Boggs was a better player than Brett.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  PP

If you listened to Boston-area sports radio in the 80s, this opinion would’ve been even more pronounced. To even equate Boggs with Brett was considered a bizarre opinion; to say Boggs was actually _better_ than Brett would’ve gotten you immediately laughed off the air (especially if the talk-show host was Eddie Andelman, who seemed to have some sort of vendetta against Boggs). The local consensus was that Boggs was a supremely gifted and brilliant craftsman as a singles hitter, but overall (defense, baserunning were suspect) he was not a truly great player. I consider Brett to be better than Boggs… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

“Has anyone here noticed that Jay Jaffe’s JAWS Hall of Fame worthiness system is now available on B-R?” You bet I have! And if you look, Boggs’ JAWS score is much closer to #2 Eddie Mathews (only 0.3 “points” behind) than Brett is to Boggs (4.0 “points” behind). I’m not sure that I’m willing to go that far but I don’t think the idea that they’re close in value is at all far-fetched especially when you think about all of the games that Brett missed when he was still relatively young to nagging injuries. Brett only had 4 seasons that… Read more »

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Lawrence, your point about positional adjustments is a good one. Positional adjustments seem to help us assess value, but they don’t tell us a lot about talent. Could Brett have stuck at third later in his career and earned more WAR as a bad third baseman than he did as an average first baseman? Does the position he played in his late 30s have any bearing on his overall greatness? B-r docks Brett 57 runs over the course of his career in positional adjustments. Boggs gets +2. That 59-run difference is close to six wins, or more than Boggs’ career… Read more »

Ed
Ed
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Bryan – But if Brett had stayed at third, perhaps he would have continued to miss a lot of games, thus lowering his Rbat? A quick glance indicates that he generally missed fewer games after making the switch than before the switch. Not to mentioned that maybe (hard to say with any certainty) he would have has lower Rfields if he had stayed at 3rd.

BryanM
BryanM
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

We have learned that Traynor was not nearly as valuable as those who saw him play thought he was ; why couldn’t the same be true of Brett? I am ready to accept that Boggs was better ( not decided n my mind, just ready to accept it ) one thing Boggs suffered from in Boston was the perception that he was ” selfish” , taking walks instead expanding his strike zone to try to drive in runs. Of course, he knew more about baseball than his critics, but he suffered from the stereotype that people who draw walks like… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

#84/BryanM – Why was Pie Traynor considered the greatest third baseman of all time, even after Edddie Mathews’ career?: – .320 career BA – 100 or more RBI seven times – reputation as an outstanding fielder – fairly long career on a very good team (the Pirates were in two WS, usually competitive, and finished {barely} under .500 only twice during his career) Maybe the most important reason was that there was no long-career third baseman before Mathews who was a great hitter, and Traynor seemed to fit the bill the best, as “the best third baseman” candidate. Even at… Read more »

PP
PP
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

“We have learned that Traynor was not nearly as valuable as those who saw him play thought he was ; why couldn’t the same be true of Brett? ”

Or of Boggs?

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  PP

I recall Boggs being viewed (mostly by writers) as a very marginal third baseman for his first 5 or 6 years in the league- an assertion that was hard to dispute if you lived 1200 miles from Boston and 3 & 1/2 hours from the closest American League ballpark. The only two sources you had on television were the game of the week & the White Sox on WGN in Chicago and even then my opportunities to watch were limited by a job where I worked a minimum of 50 hours a week and over half of those hours were… Read more »

PP
PP
11 years ago
Reply to  PP

All comments noted. More later. No time now as I’m still looking for Eddie Andelman’s career WAR…

PP
PP
11 years ago
Reply to  PP

Does post season count in this discussion as it does for Smoltz, Rivera, Schilling, etc.? If so, Brett was 337/297/627 in 184 at bats, 30 runs scored, 10 HRs, 23 RBIs in 43 games. Boggs 237/337/383 in 174 at bats, 15 Rs, 2 HRs, 16 RBIs in 39 games. Those Royals-Yankee series, the 80 and 85 WS. That homer off Gossage…

(Eddie Andelman, never thought I’d hear that name again. Was he the first sports talk show guy?)

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  PP

Andelman may have been the first regular sports-talk host in the Boston area with “The Sports Huddle”; well him and Guy Manella, way back in the early 70s.

I doubt he was the first sports-talk host _ever_ in the entire country, seeing that commercial radio has been around since 1920. Posters here from other parts of the country, can you weigh in?

As an interesting tangent, when I was involved with my local(Framingham) college radio station in the late 80s, we acquired several boxes of old production carts from “The Sports Huddle” and WHDH-AM, through our advisor.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  PP

Maybe some of you older guys can confirm this but there was a New York sportscaster named Stan Lomax who I think had a sports talk show way back when.

Mike L
Mike L
11 years ago
Reply to  PP

Art Rust Jr. did sports radio talk for a Queens station back in the fifties, and worked steadily for the next thirty plus years, for a time on TV, then back to talk radio.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
11 years ago

Alan Trammell, Kenny Lofton, Roberto Alomar

aweb
aweb
11 years ago

Boggs, Glavine, Trammell

Brooklyn Mick
Brooklyn Mick
11 years ago

Boggs, Trammell, Sandberg

Mike G.
Mike G.
11 years ago

Boggs, Brown, Lofton