Quiz – Love Conquers WAR (solved)
Posted
Sunday, March 10th, 2013 at
8:07 pm by Doug
Below is a list of noteworthy players of the past half-century. Among all players to play their entire careers since 1961, what is the common trait shared only by these players?
| Player | Count | HOF Teammates |
|---|---|---|
| Gaylord Perry | 17 | Willie Mays / Willie McCovey / Orlando Cepeda / Juan Marichal / Warren Spahn / Duke Snider / Dennis Eckersley / Frank Robinson / Bert Blyleven / Fergie Jenkins / Dave Winfield / Ozzie Smith / Rollie Fingers / Reggie Jackson / Rich Gossage / Phil Niekro / George Brett |
| Tony Perez | 13 | Frank Robinson / Johnny Bench / Joe Morgan / Gary Carter / Andre Dawson / Carl Yastrzemski / Jim Rice / Wade Boggs / Carlton Fisk / Dennis Eckersley / Mike Schmidt / Steve Carlton / Barry Larkin |
| Rich Gossage | 12 | Ron Santo / Willie Stargell / Dave Winfield / Reggie Jackson / Gaylord Perry / Catfish Hunter / Tony Gwynn / Ryne Sandberg / Andre Dawson / Rickey Henderson / Nolan Ryan / Dennis Eckersley |
| Dave Winfield | 12 | Ozzie Smith / Rollie Fingers / Gaylord Perry / Willie McCovey / Rickey Henderson / Reggie Jackson / Phil Niekro / Rich Gossage / Bert Blyleven / Roberto Alomar / Kirby Puckett / Eddie Murray |
| Steve Carlton | 12 | Lou Brock / Orlando Cepeda / Bob Gibson / Mike Schmidt / Joe Morgan / Tony Perez / Ryne Sandberg / Carlton Fisk / Tom Seaver / Phil Niekro / Kirby Puckett / Bert Blyleven |
| Dennis Eckersley | 12 | Frank Robinson / Gaylord Perry / Rickey Henderson / Carl Yastrzemski / Carlton Fisk / Wade Boggs / Tony Perez / Jim Rice / Ryne Sandberg / Rich Gossage / Ozzie Smith / Reggie Jackson |
| Don Sutton | 12 | Frank Robinson / Juan Marichal / Hoyt Wilhelm / Jim Bunning / Don Drysdale / Sandy Koufax / Nolan Ryan / Robin Yount / Paul Molitor / Rollie Fingers / Reggie Jackson / Rod Carew |
| Reggie Jackson | 12 | Rollie Fingers / Catfish Hunter / Billy Williams / Orlando Cepeda / Brooks Robinson / Jim Palmer / Dave Winfield / Rich Gossage / Gaylord Perry / Rod Carew / Don Sutton / Dennis Eckersley |
| Fergie Jenkins | 11 | Jim Bunning / Ron Santo / Billy Williams / Ernie Banks / Robin Roberts / Hoyt Wilhelm / Gaylord Perry / Carlton Fisk / Carl Yastrzemski / Jim Rice / Ryne Sandberg |
| Rollie Fingers | 11 | Reggie Jackson / Catfish Hunter / Billy Williams / Orlando Cepeda / Willie McCovey / Dave Winfield / Ozzie Smith / Gaylord Perry / Robin Yount / Paul Molitor / Don Sutton |
| Carlton Fisk | 10 | Carl Yastrzemski / Jim Rice / Juan Marichal / Orlando Cepeda / Luis Aparicio / Tony Perez / Dennis Eckersley / Fergie Jenkins / Tom Seaver / Steve Carlton |
| Joe Morgan | 10 | Nellie Fox / Eddie Mathews / Robin Roberts / Johnny Bench / Tony Perez / Tom Seaver / Nolan Ryan / Mike Schmidt / Steve Carlton / Rickey Henderson |
Hint: the common trait is a career “accomplishment”.
Congratulations to Ed and Birtelcom! They teamed up to identify these players as the HOFers to player their entire careers since 1961 and who played with 10 or more other HOF teammates. Tops on this list is Gaylord Perry with 17 HOF teammates, approaching half of the 41 HOFers from this period.
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They’re all Hall of Famers?
All of them are HOFers, and based on the title of the quiz, I assume the accomplishment is related to WAR. But I am still investigating.
They’re all from roughly the same time period…
Random thought based on no investigation except the title of the quiz: is the team that they represent in the Hall of Fame different to the one that they posted their best WAR season with?
Probably not. But there aren’t any one-team guys here.
Hall of Famers whose defensive WAR (I don’t know the proper terminology) is exactly 0
Career defensive WAR, that is.
And I have no clue how to search for this, it’s just a shot in the dark. But no one here strikes me as someone I think of as a really good or bad fielder
If you scroll down to Player Value on a a player’s baseball reference page you can see their oWAR and dWAR totals. Dave Winfield, for example, is at -23.7, whereas Carlton Fisk has 16.3.
That kills my theory. Thanks for the tip though!
Hint: focus on the other part of the quiz title
All have more career WAR than noted beanpole, Slim Love? Ah, but then that would be ‘WAR conquers Love’.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lovesl01.shtml
Is the “love” part perhaps refering to something about the number 0?
Nothing to do with the number zero.
Can’t get anywhere on this one.
I thought I was onto something with maybe these were the only Hall players since 1961 who had played for four teams or more, but Fisk blows that theory. And I’m sure there’s many more out there.
It can’t be a postseason feat because of poor ol’ Fergie.
Now I can’t even come up with a good guess.
Another hint: Barry Larkin and Bruce Sutter are the furthest away from making this list.
I thought love might have something to do with staying with the same team, such as times becoming a free agent.
Or maybe it has to do with fraternity? (big clue there)
Taking “fraternity” as a hint….I was thinking that it might have something to do with being teammates. I had to put together a spreadsheet but everyone of these players, played with fellow HOFers on multiple teams.
For example:
During his time with the Phillies, Carlton was teammates with both Perez and Morgan. And he was also teammates with Fisk on the White Sox.
Fisk, as I mentioned was teammates with Carlton on the White Sox. And when he was with the Red Sox, he played with Eck, Perez, and Jenkins.
Jenkins overlapped with Fisk on the Red Sox and with Perry on the Rangers.
Etc.
Anyway, this seems way too complicated so I’m probably way off.
Ed: I was following the same clue in the the same direction. Sutter and Larkin, who Doug mentions as furthest from making the list, played with only one fellow HOF inductee — Larkin very briefly with Tony Perez and Sutter with Ozzie.
Whilst chasing up a blind alley looking for the answer yesterday, I was perusing Barry Larkin’s HoF induction speech and he had a lot of love for Tony Perez. More impressively he busted out into Spanish at one point to thank the Latin American players that inspired him and that he played with, specifically regretting not getting the chance to play with Roberto Alomar. Maybe he was just pining for more Hall of Fame-calibre players to play with!
GAH! I was reading/investigating JUST as you gave this hint, and I thought to myself, “It’s definitely gotta be the HoFers who played with the most other HoFers,” especially after realizing Larkin and Sutter had only played with one each… but I couldn’t and/or didn’t have the patience to prove it, so I didn’t speak up. I’ve never solved a quiz before! As usual, a fun, fun trivia hunt.
I’ll get you next time, High Heat. Neeeeeeeeext tiiiiiiiiiiiiime. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2_cJxYYhM)
The word accomplishment is in quotes so I guess something unusual is involved. Does it concern being married to the same woman for a specified period of time?
Nothing to do with that. The “accomplishment” is definitely baseball-related.
This is probably way out of left field….but….does it have to do with the players highest WAR season in a year they DIDN’T win some sort of award (meaning the voters showed them “love” even though they weren’t the best WAR player, much like Trout vs. Cabrera this year)?
I noticed that the players on the list are listed in order of franchises played for in descending order.
Fisk only played for 2 franchises, less than Sutter, so if that is part of it, it can’t be all of it.
What about having faced both of a set of brothers during their career. I am not exactly sure how one would check that, but based on the fraternity clue, it seems like something that would make sense.
Although Fisk played for only two franchises, he was teammates with 10 different Hall of Famers (according to my count), a large number, especially compared to guys like Sutter and Larkin.
Hmmm…might all those HOFers have a greater WAR value then Fisk?
Birtelcom is really close.
So HOFers who played with 10+ other HOFers?
That’s it.
Congratulations to Ed and Birtelcom!
They teamed up to identify these players as the HOFers to player their entire careers since 1961 and who played with 10 or more other HOF teammates. Tops on this list is Gaylord Perry with 17 HOF teammates, approaching half of the 41 HOFers from this period.
Supplementary question: who are the two HOFers who debuted in the 1950s and who had more HOF teammates than Gaylord Perry?
I’ll take 5-10% of the credit at most. Birtelcom deserves most of it!
- Hoyt Wilhelm
- Orlando Cepeda
They would need to play for a number of (good) teams.
A weakness of checking yearly team rosters is that for partial seasons, the player in question may not have been on the team at the same time as the HOFer.
Bang on Lawrence,
I have Wilhelm at 19 HOF teammates, and Cepeda at 18. But have not checked for partial season anomalies as you have identified.
Wilhelm: Willie Mays, Red Schoendienst, Stan Musial, Larry Doby, Early Wynn, Bob Lemon, Robin Roberts, Brooks Robinson, Luis Aparicio, Nellie Fox, Hank Aaron, Orlando Cepeda, Phil Niekro, Ron Santo, Ernie Banks, Billy Williams, Fergie Jenkins, Frank Robinson, Don Sutton
Cepeda: Willie Mays, Juan Marichal, Willie McCovey, Warren Spahn, Duke Snider, Lou Brock, Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Hank Aaron, Hoyt Wilhelm, Phil Niekro, Reggie Jackson, Rollie Fingers, Catfish Hunter, Luis Aparicio, Carl Yastrzemski, Carlton Fisk, George Brett
#34/Doug,
What do I win, he ha?
An interesring coincidence is that they were both on the 1969 Braves.
I remember The Baby Bull very well on the ’73 Red Sox- he could still hit well, but not run at all. Every one of those 25 doubles were doubles of “the bat”. Too bad his knees gave out completely – as a DH, he might’ve played into his early 40s.
Interestingly enough, in spite of the select company they kept, Perry and Wilhelm each appeared on only one playoff team.
It will be forever one of the sadder baseball stories that the Giants had Mays, McCovey, Marichal and Perry together for ten years running, 1962-1971, but in terms of post-season had only one lost WS and one lost NLCS to show for it. SF had the best regular season record in the NL, by a substantial margin, over that 10-year period, and the second-best record in the majors (to the O’s), but always seemed to fall a bit short of the summit, including the famous McCovey lineout with two men in scoring position ending the ’62 Series with a 1-0 Yankees win in Game 7.
Buster Posey and friends are finally making up for that long stretch of talent yoked to frustration.
At least they fared better than the Cubs with Banks, Santo, Williams and Jenkins for several seasons running, and nary a pennant (or even a division flag) to show for it.
Also, the Red Sox during Jim Rice’s tenure had just the two post-season appearances (both memorable, though) despite being matched with Boggs, Fisk, Perez, Yaz, Seaver, Eckersley, Jenkins and Marichal (though, of course, not all in their primes).
The Giants are clearly aware of that groups misfortune: the 2010 winners managed to scrounge a few extra rings to present to those four, as well as Orlando Cepeda and Monte Irvin i.e. the Giants’ six living Hall of Famers.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110409&content_id=17592926&vkey=news_sf&c_id=sf
I’m curious, Doug, is there a straightforward PI method to get the teammate output you used here, or did you need to put together a complex spreadsheet to get your results?
It wasn’t really a complex spreadsheet. Just a whole bunch of P-I searches of HOFers playing on a given team for a given period of years (that is, matching the time when the player of interest played on that team), and then copying those results into a simple spreadsheet, removing duplicates, etc. If you’re interested, I’ll send along when I’m finished.
I manually created the table in this post (copying the spreadsheet results) using the P-I query result table format. Which is only fair, since I used P-I to come up with those results.
I also would be interested in your methodology.
Doug: Never mind, I see what you did.
I admire your patience, Doug. Working on your quiz, I did what you did for Larkin, Sutter and Fisk, but that’s only three players who played for a grand total of six franchises. I don’t think I would have had the fortitude for much more than that.
Doug, since you have the spreadsheet, can you tell us the longest careers that:
(a) *always* had a HOF teammate?
(b) *never* had a HOF teammate?
Of course, Lou Whitaker should be a candidate for (a), but … never mind that now.
On a random check, I found that Reggie Jackson had a HOF teammate in each of his 21 seasons.
JA, Pete Rose had a HOF teammate for all 25 teams he played for in the 24 years of his career (he split time in ’84 between Montreal and Cincy).
Much appreciated, bstar.
Jim Kaat was also 25 for 25 in seasons with a HOF teammate. One asterisk was he split the 1980 season with the Yankees and Cardinals, and the Redbirds didn’t have a HOFer that year.
Steve Carlton was 24 for 24 in seasons with a HOF teammate, more special since, being a HOFer himself, there was at least one other on every team he played on. One asterisk for Carlton was 1986, split between three teams, one of which (the Giants) did not have another HOFer to team with Lefty.
Tommy John was 24 for 26 in seasons with a HOF teammate missing only with the ’64 Indians and ’71 White Sox.
Thanks for the updates, Doug!
So if I’m reading your post correctly, Doug, Rose is the only one of the four players we mentioned who had a Hall of Fame teammate on every team he played for. Is that right? Two of your statements about Carlton contradict each other, so I’m not sure.
You say, “there was at least one other..[HOFer]..on every team he played on” but then you say he played for the Giants in 1986 with no such teammate. So if I’ve got you right, it’s
Rose 25 for 25 teams
Kaat 25 for 26 teams
Carlton 24 for 25 teams
TJohn 24 for 26 teams
Yes that’s right. Kaat and Carlton each missed one team. But, in both cases, it was in a season split between two or more teams. Thus, each had a HOF teammate every season.
Actually, Carlton had 25 for 26 teams, over 24 seasons. He played for 3 teams in 1986, two of them only in that season.
John, I’ve just been looking at HOFers but so far (I’ve gone back to careers starting in 1915 or later) Burleigh Grimes and Waite Hoyt are in a universe of their own, with 35 and 32 HOF teammates, respectively. Then, there’s quite a gap, down to 22 teammates for Freddie Lindstrom and Rogers Hornsby, and 21 for High Pockets Kelly.
Grimes had at least one HOF teammate in each of his 19 seasons, including with each club in seasons where he played for more than one. In only one season (1921 Robins) did he have only one such teammate (Zack Wheat). In his final season, he played with 3 clubs and had 18 different HOF teammates. (not a typo)
Hoyt also had at least one HOF teammate in each of his 21 seasons, and with each team in seasons he played for more than one. Three times he had just one teammate, with the 1918 Giants, 1930 Tigers and 1937 Dodgers.
I suspect Bruce Sutter will be our champion for fewest HOF teammates by a HOFer with just one (I’m penciling in Junior Griffey to bump up Barry Larkin’s count to two). Among non-HOF players with fewest HOF teammates, almost certainly Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker have the longest careers without a single HOF teammate.
For most HOF teammates by a non-HOFer, two leading candidates are Bob O’Farrell (28) and Jack Quinn (26).
Have you checked Bobo Newsom?
Here is Bobo’s raw list, with 31 names.
Dave Bancroft / Max Carey / Dazzy Vance / Kiki Cuyler / Burleigh Grimes / Gabby Hartnett / Billy Herman / Rogers Hornsby / Rick Ferrell / Al Simmons / Heinie Manush / Joe Cronin / Bobby Doerr / Jimmie Foxx / Lefty Grove / Earl Averill / Charlie Gehringer / Hank Greenberg / Hal Newhouser / Early Wynn / Billy Herman / Joe Medwick / Pee Wee Reese / Arky Vaughan / Paul Waner / Lefty Gomez / George Kell / Yogi Berra / Joe DiMaggio / Phil Rizzuto / Johnny Mize
Only scratch I can see is Lefty Gomez, released by the Senators 7-15-43, a month and a half before Bobo arrived. So, a nice round number of 30 HOF teammates, not bad for a player who toiled mostly for the Senators, Browns and Athletics.
I imagine there are at least several NY Yankees who had HOF teammates their whole careers.
Without even checking rosters, LOU GEHRIG:
-1923-34: Babe Ruth
-1935-1939: Bill Dickey
The time-consuming part is checking HOF Yankees who played for other teams.
These are the years in which there was not a HOFer on the Yankees;
1910-1912
1969-1974
1991-1992
1998-present (which will eventually change when Jeter gets in)
1944 and 1945 were close calls. The only HOFers were Paul Waner and Red Ruffing who each saw limited action.
Richard – Aren’t 1913-1915 close calls as well? For 1913 and 1914 the only HOFer is Frank Chance. In 1913 Chance played in 12 games and got 33 PAs. In 1914, he only played in one game (looks like he briefly played 1b but got no PAs). Then in 1915, the only HOFer is Dazzy Vance who pitched in 8 games, 28 innings.
You’re right, I never bothered to check those years.
Looking back before ’61:
Tris Speaker had 17 HOF teammates 17 — not bad, for a guy who never changed leagues.
- 6 with BOS (Ruth, Cy Young, Hooper, Pennock, Chesbro, J.Collins)
- 2 with CLE (Sewell, Coveleski)
- 3 with WAS (W.Johnson, Goslin, Rice)
- 6 with PHA (Cobb, Grove, E.Collins, Foxx, Cochrane, Simmons
I wonder if anyone played with more of the super-elite? Counting Spoke himself, this gang has nos. 1, 4, 6, 11 and 21 in career WAR by position players, and nos. 1, 2 and 6 on the pitching side.
Just for the heck of it I checked out non-HOFer Jack Quinn. If I did my work correctly I found that he was teammates with 24 HOFers.
Yankees: Keeler, Chesbro, Ruth, Baker, Hoyt
Braves: Maranville
White Sox: Schalk, Collins
Red Sox: Ruffing, Pennock
A’s: Simmons, Cochrane, Foxx, Grove, Cobb, Collins (again), Wheat, Speaker
Dodgers: Wilson, Lombardi, Kelly, Vance,Hoyt (again)
Reds: Bottomley, Hafey, Rixey, Lombardi (again)
I have two more for Quinn: Red Faber with the White Sox; and Chief Bender in the Federal League.
Quinn and Faber were not on the 1918 White Sox at the same time in 1918. Faber left for military service in mid-June and Quinn joined the team in August.
Mel Ott had 18 HOF teammates, while playing his whole career with one team. That should tell you something about the over-representation in the HOF of the 1920s and 1930s stars.
… or at least the overrepresentation by the Friends of Frankie Frisch.