Circle of Greats: 1943 Part 1 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 31st round of balloting for the Circle of Greats.  This round begins to add those players born in 1943.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1943 will be brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds — the top half of the alphabet this round and the bottom half of the alphabet next round.  The new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full group eligible to receive your votes this round.  The new group of 1943-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EDT on Wednesday, October 2, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EDT Monday, September 30.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1943 Round 1 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1943 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The 13 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The new group of 1943 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.  In total there were 30 players born in 1943 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement.  15 of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Sandy Alomar, Sr. through Lee May).  The 15 players further down in the alphabet (Joe Morgan, et al.) will be added next round.

Holdovers:
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 10 rounds)
Nolan Ryan (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
Steve Carlton (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Jim Palmer (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1943, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Jose Cardenal
Lee May
Sandy Alomar
Andy Etchebarren
Davey Johnson
Dave May

Pitchers (born in 1943, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Tommy John
Tom Burgmeier
John Hiller
Nelson Briles
Mike Marshall
Jack Billingham
Lew Krausse
Wade Blasingame
Jerry Johnson

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wx
wx
10 years ago

Steve Carlton, Jim Palmer, Edgar Martinez

Mike
Mike
10 years ago

Steve Carlton
Jim Palmer
Nolan Ryan

Going to be a lot of power pitchers inducted for a while.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
10 years ago

A couple interesting new names on the list (John, Hiller, D. Johnson), but no one with, IMHO, a serious COG chance, unless there’s a huge undercurrent for John that I’m unaware of.

So which holdover will get the call? Seems like the pitchers (Ryan, Carlton, Palmer, Smoltz) might be fighting for the COG spot.

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago

I must agree with the above Mike- Carlton, Palmer, Ryan.

--bill
--bill
10 years ago

Carlton, Grich, Nettles

Bix
Bix
10 years ago

Carlton, Grich, Lofton

brp
brp
10 years ago
Reply to  Bix

Going with the same ballot:
Carlton
Grich
Lofton

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago

Just to be a contrarian I’m filling out a 2B ballot.

Biggio, Alomar, Sandberg

Darien
10 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Which Alomar? We have two of them now. 🙂

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago
Reply to  Darien

Funny, didn’t realize. Roberto Alomar gets the vote.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago
Reply to  Darien

We may have NO Alomars after this round :(.

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

The ballot currently has five second basemen (and only four other non-pitchers). I’m pretty sure it could stand to lose one.

Daniel Longmire
Daniel Longmire
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Yes, we have no Alomars. 🙂

Darien
10 years ago

Sticking to my guns: Ryan, Biggio, Lofton.

J.R.
J.R.
10 years ago

Ryan, Grich, Palmer

jeff hill
jeff hill
10 years ago

Ryan, Lofton, Smoltz

oneblankspace
10 years ago

This is not a vote, but the S. Alomar on the ballot is Sandy Alomar, Sr., the father of Roberto and Sandy, Jr.

Insert Name Here
Insert Name Here
10 years ago

Initial vote based on merit: 1. Kenny Lofton (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1992-99) 2. Bobby Grich (6.6 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1972-83) 3. Jim Palmer (5.9 WAR/162 during 10-yr peak of 1969-78) Others worthy of consideration: 4. Ryne Sandberg (6.2 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1984-92) 5. Graig Nettles (6.2 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1970-78) 6. Craig Biggio (5.8 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1991-99) 7. Lou Whitaker (5.5 WAR/162 during 15-yr peak of 1979-93) 8. Eddie Murray (5.7 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1978-86) 9. Steve Carlton (5.3 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1969-77) —… Read more »

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago

Tommy John, the ultimate compiler. I actually looked yesterday (in pondering your weekly posts) and marveled at his 6.3 WAR/162 during a THREE-year peak.

MJ
MJ
10 years ago

Steve Carlton, Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich

RonG
RonG
10 years ago

Carlton, Ryan, Palmer

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Carlton, Ryan, Smoltz.

Mo
Mo
10 years ago

Carlton, Whitaker, Grich

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
10 years ago

Whitaker, Smoltz, Palmer

Sad not to be voting for TJ, but even more for Hiller; Hiller was something special.

T-Bone
T-Bone
10 years ago

Sandberg
Ryan
An old fave of mine – Tommy John

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

Alomar (Roberto), Murray, Sandberg

A vote to keep guys on the bubble from falling off the ballot, obviously. If I were voting strictly on the merits, I’d probably vote for Carlton, Martinez, and Palmer.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

This round will be close on who wins and who doesn’t. You may keep somebody on the ballot but you are throwing away your choice on who wins. We don’t have Tom Seaver on this ballot like last year. Your stated preference for Carlton over Ryan is not reflected in your ballot and will not help him win the day if indeed you think he is most worthy.

I believe we should at least vote for who we think the strongest candidate is. Otherwise, things get weird.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  mosc

1) When this project started, I didn’t much care for the notion of strategic voting. My thinking has changed, as is evident. I haven’t done any “shout-out” votes, but it doesn’t bother me that people indulge in them from time to time. 2) If Carlton doesn’t win this round, I think he’s very likely to be elected within the next half dozen ballots or so. 3) I believe Ryan is very likely to be elected one of these years, no matter how many times I don’t vote for him. 4) With 32 ballots in, the current vote totals are Carlton… Read more »

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

“…I didn’t much care for the notion of strategic voting…My thinking has changed…”

Me too, David! I never thought I’d engage in strategic voting but it’s actually a very necessary part of this process (with the holdover eligibility rules and such).

If I actually had a real HOF vote, I’d like to think I would just vote for my top ten choices (there’s so many more deserving out there than ten) but at the very least this process has given me a deeper understanding of why someone would vote strategically with their Hall ballot.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  bstar

If I had an actual HoF vote (not likely!), I’d just vote straight up for the 10 (or fewer) I thought worthy.

Strategic voting of the type we engage in here isn’t so feasible with the HoF, since the HoF electorate is almost 10 times as large as ours (reducing the effect of any individual voter) and the voting is secret.

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Perhaps “strategic” isn’t the right word then.

I’m talking about things like some writer out there not voting for Greg Maddux this year because he knows Maddog is a shoo-in, or another writer dismissing every player from the steroid era and voting for guys like Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, etc. instead.

I don’t agree with either of those choices but thanks to this process I understand them a little more.

David
David
10 years ago

Whitaker Carlton Palmer

koma
koma
10 years ago

Nolan Ryan, John Smoltz, Steve Carlton

Fireworks
Fireworks
10 years ago

Steady Eddie, Rumors, Rockin’ Robbie (Spittin’ Image of His Dad)

fireworks
fireworks
10 years ago
Reply to  Fireworks

Well played, autocorrect.

Ryno, not rumors.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Fireworks

Is that Jack “Rumours” Buckillingham?

elkboy3
elkboy3
10 years ago

Carlton, Grich, Martinez

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

Steve Carlton
Bobby Grinch
Ryne Sandberg

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

You’re a mean one, Mr. Grinch.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Autocorrect fail. Bummer. I hate doing the voting from my phone for that reason. Argh.

Nick Pain
Nick Pain
10 years ago

Nolan Ryan, Lou Whitaker, Eddie Murray

oneblankspace
10 years ago

Biggio, Carlton, EMurray.

Two of my votes are holdovers from previous rounds.

No telling what Murray could have done if he’d been a switch hitter. Plus he had a namesake who kicked field goals for the Detroit Lions and 6 other teams http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/murraedd01.htm .

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

“No telling what Murray could have done if he’d been a switch hitter.”

Wild guess, I’d say he’d have hit something like .285 with about 500 HR, OPS+ around 130.

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
10 years ago

Biggio, Smoltz, Palmer.

TJay
10 years ago

Carlton, Ryan, Palmer

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
10 years ago

R. Alomar, Smoltz, Carlton

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons:

Carlton 46.7
Grich 43.6
Whitaker 42.7
Martinez 41.3
Smoltz 40.1
Lofton 39.3
Ryan 39.1
Sandberg 38.8
Alomar 36.8
Biggio 36.3
Palmer 36.0
Nettles 35.6
Murray 34.9
L. May 28.5
John 27.3

Carlton, Edgar, Grich

Kirk
Kirk
10 years ago

Carlton, Palmer & R Alomar

mosc
mosc
10 years ago

I am scratching my head on Palmer vs Smoltz. I may post later on that, it’s pretty close to me. Regardless, neither will win and only one needs any help sticking around.

Ryan, Carlton, Palmer

KalineCountry
KalineCountry
10 years ago

Lou Whitaker
Jim Palmer
John Hiller!!!

KalineCountry
KalineCountry
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Thanks for sharing that with me and the rest of the group here!!

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

I agree with KalineCountry- thanks for the great Tales From the Play Index Event Finder (appearances by Yaz, Darrell Porter, Danny Ainge Toronto ball player, Sal Bando and more!)

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago

Carlton, Roberto, and Murray.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
10 years ago

Alright, I won’t concern myself with the bubble until a bit later.

Carlton (best pitcher on the ballot, IMO), Lofton (I’m sticking to it!), Whitaker (best of the remaining 2B, IMO)

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

I refuse to comment until Game 162 is over :O

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago

With four on-the-bubble candidates and only three votes, we cannot “save” everyone that we wish to. So I will vote for the nonexistant player Murray Roberto Sandberg:

– Eddie Murray
– Roberto Alomar
– Ryan Sandberg

If voting strictly on merit,I would take Carlton first, but after that,I’m not sure; there’s about 8-10 players not hugely different in value.

cubbies
cubbies
10 years ago

steve carlton, bobby grich, Nolan ryan

Abbott
Abbott
10 years ago

ryan
carlton
biggio

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
10 years ago

Whitaker, Carlton, Smoltz

Doug
Editor
10 years ago

Carlton, Ryan, Nettles

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

The man who pitched 106 games in relief
(74 times for MORE than one inning):

http://www.drmikemarshall.com/

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Carlton vs Ryan:

329
324

3.22
3.19

55
61

1.247
1.247 !

84.1
83.8

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

_____________

Nolan Ryan
Tommy John
Mike Marshall

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

In case anyone’s interested, here’s how long it’s taken our current CoG members to get elected:

1 ballot: Bench, Blyleven, Bonds, Brett, Carew, G Carter, Clemens, Henderson, R Jackson, R Johnson, Maddux, Piazza, Ripken, Schmidt, Seaver, Yount

2 ballots: Bagwell, Boggs, Fisk

3 ballots: O Smith

4 ballots: Thomas

7 ballots: Molitor

8 ballots: Mussina, Schilling

10 ballots: Larkin

11 ballots: L Walker

13 ballots: Glavine, Raines

14 ballots: Trammell

15 ballots: Gwynn

16 of 30 were elected on the first ballot.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Very interesting, David, thanks for compiling this.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Now that i have had a chance to think about it, I don’t think there was much real doubt about the ‘Greats’ elected within 10 rounds or list, it just took 10 rounds to clear various backlogs, 1 player at a time.

On the other hand, the inductees that took between 11 and 15 rounds were all hotly contested.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

That sounds about right, although at this point I can’t remember to what extent Schilling and Mussina were considered no-doubters. Generally speaking the no-doubters have drawn 2/3 or more of the vote in the year they were elected, while the long-waiters come in around 50%. Mussina was elected with 49% of the vote, Schilling with 54%.

Anyway, it’s an amusing coincidence that so far no one who’s been elected has been on the ballot longer than is allowed on the BBWAA ballot. But I expect we’ll elect someone with more than 15 yrs on the ballot eventually.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

To join David’s info, here are all of the players who have been on the COG ballot for longer than 15 rounds, after 30 rounds (up to and including 1944):

R. Alomar: 30 (from 1968)

Smoltz: 29 (from 1967)

Biggio: 27 (from 1965)

Sandberg: 21 (from 1959)

Whitaker: 18 (from 1957)

Murray: 17 (from 1956)

Lofton & E. Martinez: 16 (both currently on the ballot for 8 rounds since 1949-1).

The next longest are Grich at 8, and Nolan Ryan at 5.

Phil
10 years ago

Ryan, Carlton, Alomar. I still have a bat used by Lee May during a spring training game in ’72; one of the groundskeepers gave it to me to make up for a couple of foul balls I chased down and–hard to believe–was asked to give back. He’d just been traded to Houston–I believe it was one of Roger Metzger’s bats.

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Phil

Speaking of Lee May with the Astros … The 1972-73 Astros had the same 4 players hit 20+ HRs each year — May, Cedeno, Wynn and Rader. I could be wrong, but that seems unusual.

Those were their only years with more than two 20-HR men until 1998.

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

OK, the 1965-66 Braves got 20+ HRs both years from Aaron, Felipe Alou, Mack Jones and Joe Torre. The 1996-97 Braves got 20+ HRs both years from Chipper, McGriff, Javy Lopez and Ryan Klesko. The 1961-62 Yankees got 20+ HRs both years from Mantle, Maris, Elston Howard and Moose Skowron. The 2009-10 Yankees got 20+ HRs both years from Cano, A-Rod, Swisher and Teixeira. And the 2010-12 Yankees got 20+ HRs all three years from Cano, Granderson, Swisher and Teixeira. That’s the only two teams I checked. So, I guess it’s not all that unusual. Perhaps more so in the… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

The Rockies did it in 1998-99 (Helton, Castilla, Bichette, Walker).

Late ’90s Mariners came close:

’96: A-Rod, Griffey, E Martinez, Sorrento, Buhner
’97: A-Rod, Griffey, E Martinez, Sorrento, Buhner, R Davis
’98: A-Rod, Griffey, E Martinez, R Davis
’99: A-Rod, Griffey, E Martinez, R Davis, D Bell

RJ
RJ
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Whilst researching this, I came across San Francisco’s strike-shortened 1994 season, in which Bonds and Williams combined for 80 of SF’s 123 total home runs (65.0%). No other Giant had 10 homers. That percentage coming from just two players seems remarkably high: does anyone know the last time such a percentage was achieved, or what the highest all time is?

I had a quick look: Hank Greenberg and Rudy York combined for 66.4% of the 1938 Tigers’ homers and a quick glance at the 1920s Yankees shows that Ruth and Gehrig reached a figure of 67.7% in 1927.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Babe Ruth and Harry Hooper had 32 of the 1919 Red Sox’s 33 HRs, 97%.

RJ
RJ
10 years ago

Thanks Richard! I figured it’d be Ruth and that era. Any idea the last time a figure higher than Bonds+Williams’ 65% was achieved? I’m guessing it’s a record or close to a record for the expansion era. I checked the big years for Sosa, McGwire and Maris and couldn’t see anything there.

JEV
JEV
10 years ago

Carlton, Palmer, Biggio

Francisco
Francisco
10 years ago

Carlton, Ryan, Murray

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago

Sandberg, Martinez, Carlton.

Final answer, Regis.

GrandyMan
GrandyMan
10 years ago

Carlton, Ryan, Whitaker

Joel
Joel
10 years ago

Ryan
Carlton
Murray