Circle of Greats: 1943 Part 2 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 32nd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats.  This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1943 who were not added in the previous round.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1943 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds — the top half of the alphabet in the previous round and the bottom half of the alphabet this round.  The new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full group eligible to receive your votes this round.  The new group of 1943-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EDT on Friday, October 11, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EDT Wednesday, October 9.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1943 Round 2 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1943 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The 11 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The new group of 1943 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.  In total there were 30 players born in 1943 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement.  15 of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Jerry May through Walt Williams).  The 15 players higher up in the alphabet were added in the previous round.

Holdovers:
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 10 rounds)
Nolan Ryan (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Jim Palmer (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1943, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Joe Morgan
Lou Piniella
Bill Robinson
Roy White
Rico Petrocelli
Merv Rettenmund
Felix Millan
Rick Reichardt
Paul Schaal
Jerry May
Ivan Murrell
Walt Williams

Pitchers (born in 1943, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Marty Pattin
Jim Merritt
Dick Selma

0 0 votes
Article Rating
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

96 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Mike
Mike
10 years ago

Lynn Nolan Ryan
James Augustus Palmer
Joe Leonard Morgan

mosc
mosc
10 years ago

I think nettles is supposed to be removed, yes?

Morgan, Ryan, Palmer

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago

Craig Biggio
Edgar Martinez
Joe Morgan – with the understanding that he was the worst tv broadcaster in history – so bad I had to watch games with the sound off. I could write about 10 paragraphs here and start foaming at the mouth about it. But I won’t. I hope he gets in on the first ballot so I don’t have to look at his name again next week.

brp
brp
10 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Joe Morgan
Bobby Grich
Kenny Lofton

Welcome to the COG, Little Joe. And yes, you were/are the worst broadcaster ever.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  brp

What, worse than the Hawk?

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

I’m with you on this one. How ever little I may have liked Morgan at least I never contemplated the notion of jabbing a sharp object thru my ear and into my brain while listening to him.

Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Yes, but Hawk is a homer, accepted by his community.
Morgan was broadcasting globally televised games.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Harrelson was also the Sox GM that fired Tony LaRussa as manager freeing him up for the Oakland gig and the three straight pennants.

brp
brp
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Crap, good point.

At least we can rip on both of those idiots with impunity here because we know neither one would dare venture anywhere near a discussion or a statistic that might help explain the nuances of baseball.

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Morgan
Ryan
Smoltz

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

In his new Historical Baseball Abstract Bill James compared White to Jim Rice. I thought it was one of the most enlightening looks at how advanced metrics and a whole new way of thinking about things could cast things in a whole new light. And perhaps not surprisingly, James came to the conclusion that White was every bit the player that Jim Rice was. And while WAR uses an entirely different set if metrics, the Hall of Stats and JAWS come to exactly the same conclusion that James did.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

But neither James nor the Hall of Stats nor JAWS nor WAR include any extra credit for being “the most feared hitter of his time”.

Luckily for us, Hall of Fame voters do!

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons:

Morgan 63.8
Grich 43.6
Whitaker 42.7
Martinez 41.3
Smoltz 40.1
Lofton 39.3
Ryan 39.1
Sandberg 38.8
Alomar 36.8
Biggio 36.3
Palmer 36.0
Murray 34.9
White 25.2
Petrocelli 20.9

Lots of well-rounded 2bs at the top, but a best player/best pitcher/best hitter ballot is pretty easy this time around.

Morgan. Smoltz. Martinez.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago

I didn’t think it would take us till Morgan to get ourselves a second basemen but truth be served, all others are unnecessary. I know there are a lot of early 1900s second basemen (Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Gehringer, and Frisch) who were all great but none played in an integrated league and none had Morgan’s speed or agility. Jackie Robinson might be a better talent but history was not yet ready. You can also argue that he played in a non-integrated league oddly enough, he faced very few black pitchers. Morgan was an unbelievably tough out and adjusted his approach… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  mosc

I think Collins is a pretty good match for Morgan in terms of speed and agility – he stole bases at the same rate per game as Morgan (albeit with a lower success rate; but then Morgan played over half his games on artificial turf), and his defensive reputation was excellent.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

And the defensive demands at 3B are also the reason that Home Run Baker, unappreciated in his own time, was the only HOF-quality 3B until Eddie Mathews (and John McGraw was a HOF-quality player, but given the choice of inducting as either a player OR manager, I think he’s in the correct way already).

GrandyMan
GrandyMan
10 years ago

Morgan Ryan Whitaker

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
10 years ago

Morgan, Whitaker, Smoltz

--bill
--bill
10 years ago

Morgan, Murray, Palmer.

I remember Roy White doing work in the 1978 world series, but, as a kid, I had no idea he was that much better than Lou Piniella!

Kirk
Kirk
10 years ago

Palmer, Smoltz & Alomar

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Kirk

Smoltz doesn’t exactly need protecting on this ballot, he’s got a lot of years left. Why Smoltz and no Morgan?

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
10 years ago

Paul Schaal is one of only a few MLB players I’m aware of (along with Mark Clark and Don Hahn) with first and last names that rhyme. Does anyone know of any others?

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

Lu Blue

Gene Green

Bill Hill

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

True, but he hated when the season came to an end. He would have preferred to play ball all Fall.

bryanM
bryanM
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

true too of lu blue

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago

Ed Head
Matt Batts is close

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

Bill Hill took the pill,
Threw it in with all his will;
Paul Schaal saw the ball,
Hit it high up off the wall.
Don Hahn thought it gone,
Lost it in the summer sun.
Bouncing ball, running Schaal,
Will he manage to touch them all?
Hahn snags ball, throws and falls,
Throws it true to ol’ Lu Blue.
Blue, too, sends it through –
Fires low and mean to catcher Green.
Gene Green snags it clean,
Tags sliding Schaal on outer knee;
Sweetest relay you’ve ever seen.

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Poetry *and* motion! Bravo, David Horwich!

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Glad you enjoyed it. Although poetry may be too refined a term – doggerel is more like it…

Abbott
Abbott
10 years ago

Ryan, Grich, Biggio

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

Joe Morgan
Bobby Grich
Ryne Sandberg

birtelcom, I respectfully submit my all-second-baseman ballot.

MJ
MJ
10 years ago

Joe Morgan, Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich

ATarwerdi96
ATarwerdi96
10 years ago

Joe Morgan, Edgar Martinez, Bobby Grich

Phil
10 years ago

Morgan, Ryan, Alomar

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago

Morgan, Alomar, Murray

Darien
10 years ago

Morgan, Biggio, Lofton

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
10 years ago

Biggio was on my last year’s ballot… C/2b/cf /most right-handed doubles and all that. Carlton was elected, so I won’t vote for him this round. My other vote last round was for Eddie Murray. On the other hand, Smoltz and R.Alomar have been on the ballot for almost ever (Remember when Smoltz got 50% of the vote, only to lose to Bagwell?) — I take that back. R.Alomar has been on every single ballot for the Hall of Greats. Then there was that suspension that he dropped the appeal lest it be increased…. I would probably like Ryne Sandberg better… Read more »

bryanM
bryanM
10 years ago

To the man who taught me to watch baseball with the mute button on, and two others Morgan, Whitaker, Ryan

TJay
10 years ago

Morgan, Ryan, Palmer .

J.R.
J.R.
10 years ago

Ryan, Palmer, Grich.

wx
wx
10 years ago

Joe Morgan, Jim Palmer, Edgar Martinez

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
10 years ago

Morgan, Alomar, Smoltz

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

Guess I’ll stick with my bubble boys special for the time being –

Alomar, Murray, Sandberg

T-Bone
T-Bone
10 years ago

Sandberg
Ryan
Morgan

I really liked Roy White when I was a kid and I met Walt Williams once in spring training. He really had no neck but he DID have a great big smile for anyone he met but I can’t bring myself to vote for either one. Thanks for the memories both of you.

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago

With every year we move further into my baseball card collecting heyday in the 60’s. I have at least 1 card of every one of our newcomers with the exception of Ivan Murrell who I have to admit I had never heard of before today.

My vote:

Sandberg, E Martinez, J Morgan

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Surely this was Ivan Murrell’s career high point — two hits and a walk off one future 300-game winner, and the game-winning hit off another:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN197007220.shtml

koma
koma
10 years ago

Nolan Ryan, John Smoltz, Craig Biggio

Chad
Chad
10 years ago

Ryan, Morgan, Whitaker

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
10 years ago

Biggio, Smoltz, Morgan. And a shout-out, but alas no vote, to Walt “No Neck” Williams.

Ed
Ed
10 years ago

Here’s a question for you PI experts: Is Jim Merritt the only 20 game winner to lose his first 10+ decisions the following year?

May not be answerable but would be interesting to know.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Ed

It can be done with the PI plus some manual searching. Problem is I am having trouble running the PI now.

Ed
Ed
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Thanks Birtelcom! Since I never made it past Webelos, I’ll take whatever Merritt badges I can get!

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
10 years ago

Morgan, Whitaker, Smoltz

Bix
Bix
10 years ago

Morgan, Ryan, Palmer

JEV
JEV
10 years ago

Morgan, Palmer, Biggio

Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

__________

If I had to build a player from the ground-up, it would look like Joe Morgan.
And I make a deliberate effort to NOT let grievances regarding my perception of a player’s personal character influence my opinion of them.

With this one exception.

Nolan Ryan
Kenny Lofton
Roberto Alomar

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago

Morgan, Ryan, Palmer. I wanted to sneak Smoltz in, but Palmer was too dominant for too long. Regarding Nolan… I think I’ll just keep voting for him until he gets in, since no matter who else shows up, there’s no way drops out of my top three. As far as I’m concerned, when you give up so few hits and strike out so many batters, you can walk as many of them as you want.

RonG
RonG
10 years ago

Morgan, Ryan, Palmer

aweb
aweb
10 years ago

Morgan
Grich
Ryan

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago

Murray, Martinez, Palmer

Fireworks
Fireworks
10 years ago

The world’s biggest Moneyball fan, Joe Morgan. The man who inspired the pornstache, Eddie Murray. The third guy on my ballot, Edgar Martinez.

opal611
opal611
10 years ago

For the 1943 (Part Two) election, I’m voting for:
-Roberto Alomar
-Ryne Sandberg
-Edgar Martinez

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Ryan (Voted for Previously. Hopefully only temporarily off my ballot.)
-Biggio (Voted for Previously. Hopefully only temporarily off my ballot.)
-Smoltz
-Whitaker
-Murray
-Grich
-Lofton
-Palmer
-Morgan

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
10 years ago

Morgan, Lofton, Murray

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
10 years ago

Whitaker, Palmer, and Ryan.

jajacob
jajacob
10 years ago

Morgan, Alomar, Murray

Dalton Mack
Editor
10 years ago

Lofton, Grich and Morgan.

Pretty much this always breaks down as Pet Project, Obvious #1 Guy and Overlooked Middle Infielder.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Dalton Mack

I agree. Everyone overlooks Joe Morgan. One day he’ll get his due and the general public will realize he was every bit the player Bobby Grich was.

Insert Name Here
Insert Name Here
10 years ago

Initial vote based solely on merit: 1. Joe Morgan (7.3 WAR/162 during 13-yr peak of 1965-77) 2. Kenny Lofton (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1992-99) 3. Bobby Grich (6.6 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1972-83) Other candidates ranked for consideration: 4. Jim Palmer (5.9 WAR/162 during 10-yr peak of 1969-78) 5. Ryne Sandberg (6.2 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1984-92) 6. Craig Biggio (5.8 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1991-99) 7. Lou Whitaker (5.5 WAR/162 during 15-yr peak of 1979-93) 8. Eddie Murray (5.7 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1978-86) 9. Edgar Martínez (6.4 WAR/162 during 7-yr peak of… Read more »

Doug
Editor
10 years ago

Morgan, Lofton, Grich

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago

Since all the on-the-bubble guys (hypothetical player Murray Ryan Sandberg) are safe for another year, and I can’t get anyone extra eligibility, I’m voting for the Obvious Best Player, a second baseman I’ve supported since The Beginning, and a favorite Red Sox player from the days when I first followed the RS:

– Joe Morgan
– Roberto Alomar
– Rico Petrocelli

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

I don’t know that I’d call Sandberg safe quite yet with only 6 votes. In 8 of the past 11 ballots he would not have moved on to the next round with that total.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

#86/Mike G’s vote just took care of any doubt about Sandberg advancing. What a logjam still at second base (tho we will finally elect one).

brp
brp
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

We already have one, Rod Carew…

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

@92/brp,

Oops. You are correct, sir!!

Even with Morgan elected and Petrocelli dropping off the ballot :(, that still leaves second basemen as five of the eleven carry-overs to the next round.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
10 years ago

I think I will go with all 2nd baseman, for fun: Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich & Joe Morgan.