Circle of Greats: 1937 Part 2 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 41st round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round completes the addition of those players born in 1937.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1937 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on alphabetical order of last names — the top half by alphabetical order in the previous round and the bottom half this round.  This round’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

As usual, the new group of 1937-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EST Monday, January 6, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EST Saturday, January 4.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1937 Round 2 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1937 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The 13 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The new group of 1937 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.  In total there were 24 players born in 1937 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement.  Twelve of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Gary Peters to Pete Ward).  The 12 players higher up in alphabetical order were added in the previous round.

Holdovers:
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 10 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 7 rounds)
Gaylord Perry  (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Juan Marichal (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ron Santo (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1937, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Brooks Robinson
George Thomas
Charley Smith
Pete Ward

Pitchers (born in 1937, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Juan Pizarro
Diego Segui
Chris Short
Gary Peters
Phil Regan
Claude Raymond
Sonny Siebert
Ron Taylor

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Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
10 years ago

Whitaker, McCovey, Smoltz

DaveR
DaveR
10 years ago

Perry, Whitaker, Martinez

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago

Biggio, Sandberg, Edgar

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

Oooh boy! A newcomer on my ballot! Sure, it happens most rounds, but I always think it’s exciting to add a name.

Gaylord Perry
Ron Santo
Brooks Robinson

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
10 years ago

Marichal, Santo, Perry

Phil
10 years ago

McCovey, Marichal, Edgar, Roberto Alomar. (In denial. And boycotting all second basemen until Jackie Robinson comes on the ballot.)

John Z
John Z
10 years ago

Well you are not making this easy on me! are you? Not much to debate here there are only 12 new names on this ballot and only one name is deserving of mention. Being born and raised in Baltimore and still living in the area, I guess I have to give a big shout out to one Human Vacuum Cleaner aka Brooks Robinson. I do not feel he is the best third baseman ever, not even really close with names like Brett, Schmidt, Matthews and yes even Boggs to some extent. But 16 Gold Gloves an MVP and a WS… Read more »

wx
wx
10 years ago

Gaylord Perry, Juan Marichal, Brooks Robinson

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
10 years ago

Gaylord Perry
Brooks Robinson
Bobby Grich

Sorry Lou. Had to vote strategically for Bobby.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago

Perry, Murray, and Santo

T-Bone
T-Bone
10 years ago

I sound like a broken record, however…..

Sandberg
Santo
D. Allen

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Brooks
McCovey
Biggio

Insert Name Here
Insert Name Here
10 years ago

Initial vote (same as last round) : 1. Ron Santo (7.0 WAR/162 during 10-yr peak of 1963-72) 2. Juan Marichal (7.1 WAR/162 during 7-yr peak of 1963-69) 3. Gaylord Perry (5.9 WAR/162 during 13-yr peak of 1964-76) A rough, very flexible ranking of other candidates: 4. Kenny Lofton (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1992-99) 5. Willie McCovey (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1963-70) 6. Bobby Grich (6.6 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1972-83) 7. Brooks Robinson (5.7 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1960-71) 8. Dick Allen (6.6 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1964-72) 9. Ryne Sandberg (6.2 WAR/162… Read more »

bells
bells
10 years ago

I’m gonna try to institute a consistent analytical framework for this exercise. I like the different methodologies of WAR, WAA+, and JAWS for different reasons, and they tell different stories about performance, all-star performance, and combination of peak and career performance. So, I’m going to rank each player on each of these criteria, relative to the others on the ballot, and give a cumulative ranking encompassing all 3 of these measures. So, for example, if a player ranks first in all 3 categories, he gets a score of 3 and if he ranks 14th on all 3 measures (out of… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

McCovey, Robinson, Santo

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

For your consideration, The Kenny Awards ______________ Only players on this ballot to score 90+ runs in 12 seasons: Craig Biggio Kenny Lofton Lofton’s were consecutive. Renowned sabermetrician Timothy McCarver has noted that scoring more runs than the opposition has a positive effect on winning ballgames. ______________ Only players to lead the league in Stolen Bases: Craig Biggio Kenny Lofton Biggio had 39 in the strike year. Lofton led 5 years in a row, once for a pennant winner in which he batted .458 in the LCS with 5 SB. _____________ Only player to play an “elite” defensive position (catcher,… Read more »

John Z
John Z
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Nice work Voomo, just one observation or question? Didn’t Biggio also play “Elite” defensive positions? Catcher, Second, and not just Center Field but all 3 outfield positions. Biggio even won GG’s while at 2nd and the Silver Slugger award at both catcher and 2nd. I am not disputing that Kenny was something special, I am just saying that Biggio should not go unnoticed, and matter of factly you recognized Biggio in your first two categories; runs and stolen bases. Maybe these two super vets should be inducted to our COG together, wouldn’t that be fitting.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  John Z

Biggio did get around. And the statistics as I’m understanding them say he was below-average to lousy with every style of glove he owned. As for 2nd base being “elite” or not, I’m not making that argument. Just referring to the standard designation of C, SS, & CF being the big three. I absolutely love Biggio’s offensive numbers and his style of play. That negative-100 Rfield is aggravating to look at. I was happier in my statistical addiction before defensive metrics came along. Regarding Lofton, though, I like that has a strong positive in Rbat, Rbaser, and Rfield. Whitaker and… Read more »

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Hmmm, running and defense. Complete player.

100+ Rbat, 100+ Rfield, 75+ Rbaserunning:

1. Willie Mays
2. Kenny Lofton

Yeah, Willie had like 800% more batting runs than Kenny, but still…

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I’m not sure how strong a positive his Rbat is. He ranks 390th all time in Rbat, and he had a lot more PAs than most other players in the 130-140 range. A player would need about 40 Rfield to rank around the 390th spot and about 10 Rbaser.

Among players with 8500 PAs (197 players), Lofton ranks 129th in PAs and 140th in Rbat, and the guys he ranks ahead of are pretty much really good to great defensive players and Joe Carter types. He’s behind guys like Tony Phillips and Toby Harrah in Rbat.

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Lofton’s Rbat is not impressive in and of itself. But how does his Rbat total look in comparison to other speedsters who were also great fielders? I pulled all players with at least 50 fielding runs and 50 baserunning runs. Of the 12 players to qualify, the highest two Rbat’s belong to Willie Mays and Rickey Henderson, who are in another stratosphere. After that, only Carlos Beltran (249 Rbat) has more batting runs than Lofton’s 138. Only 3 others from this group have positive batting runs for their career: Ichiro (119 Rbat), Max Carey (117) and Willie Davis (41). The… Read more »

paget
paget
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

@55, I think you’re right in highlighting the interest of comparing Lofton with Ichiro. Ichiro comes out substantially ahead in my book. It is worth bearing in mind that Ichiro has *lost* 41 Rbat from his former total of 160 in the last three years. (Wow, what a precipitous and incredible decline.. a 25% reduction in his total hitting worth in just three years?) 160 Rbat in 7339PA (Ichiro till 2010) is a lot more impressive than 137 Rbat in 9235PA (Lofton). Then there’s also Ichiro’s staggeringly high Rdp. Ichiro has been doing damage to his sabermetric credentials by continuing… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Ranking behind Toby Harrah in Rbat is no shame in itself — Harrah is 19th in Rbat among 3Bs (and 7th in oWAR), plus he was a SS for about 6 years.

(Sorry — I just can’t help defending anyone who had good Strat-O-Matic cards in my youth.)

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

paget, I’m not heavily invested in this thing because honestly I’ve never considered this Lofton vs. Ichiro cage match before, but I agree it is an interesting comparison. If we looked at this in the context of only looking at MLB careers, I feel Lofton comes out on top on just about every measure. Starting out, Lofton has about 10 more career WAR than Ichiro, 68 to 58. Before we marginalize that difference, that is 100 more runs produced by Lofton in his career in an eerily similar amount of PA (they both have 9200+). How would Ichiro make up… Read more »

tag
tag
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

I’ve never understood the lack of love that Kenny Lofton gets. He’s been a favorite of mine since I saw him play in high school so I’m partial, but what a consummate pro. I remember when the Cubs picked him up for their 2003 stretch drive. We Cub fans hadn’t seen a real centerfielder (not to mention leadoff man) in so long we’d forgotten what one looked like (Damon Buford anybody? Tuffy Rhodes? Doug Dascenzo? An over-the-hill Lance Johnson and Willie Wilson? Actually, Brian McCrae was okay there for a couple of years, but still…). Kenny was 36, I think,… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

@bstar 63 – extending Paget’s discussion at 58: Ichiro and Lofton are about as dead even as can possibly be except for one thing – positional adjustment: Rbat: 119 to 137 Rbaser: 62 to 78 Rdp: 53 to 23 (both guys are fantastic here, but Ichiro picks up the most Rdp ever) Rfield: 106 to 108 Adding all of those up, Ichiro has 340 Rstuff to Lofton’s 346. Throw in Replacement runs and it’s now 663 to 664. The entire difference in their careers comes from the positional adjustment and while Ichiro didn’t play centerfield much he very likely could… Read more »

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Artie: I’m not seeing it. First, they both have 9200+ PA and Lofton has more batting runs. How can that be if Ichiro’s OPS+ is/was higher? OPS+ underrates OBP and overrates power and is not an accurate reflection of true batting value. wRC+, found at Fangraphs, properly reflects the linear weights of each type of offensive hit/base reached. When you look at that, Lofton’s wRC+ is 109 and Ichiro’s is 108. That’s why Lofton ends up with 20 more batting runs than Ichiro. I think we should just call those equal, but if you’re going to make a distinction about… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Artie Z, re: Ichiro “very likely could have played [CF] very well”: Mebbe so. But in 2004, when Mike Cameron was gone to the Mets, the M’s played a 30-year-old Randy Winn in CF — a guy who played much more corner OF than CF, career — rather than the 30-year-old Ichiro. In 2005, they played Jeremy Reed in CF. And when those guys were out of the lineup those years (76 games total), not once did Ichiro slide over to CF. And when he did play CF in 2007, his metrics were ordinary. Sure, few guys could have unseated… Read more »

paget
paget
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

bstar @81, 1. Lofton and Ichiro have about the same amount of plate appearances now, but, as I suggested above, their numbers over the course of all those PAs don’t really reflect Ichiro’s substantial hitting advantage over Lofton. Ichiro has *lost* 41 Rbat in his ages 37, 38, and 39 seasons. When you look at what he did in the ten years prior to becoming an old ballplayer you get a guy who who has almost 50% more Rbat/PA than Lofton. And if you take Lofton’s best ten consecutive years, he maxes out at 108 Rbat (compared to Ichiro’s 160).… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

paget @86 — True, hits are generallly more valuable than walks, due to baserunner advancement. But Ichiro’s hits are less valuable than most, since so many were infield hits *or* line drives right at an outfielder. Check out these RBI rates for singles with a man on 2nd base only, from 2001-13: — MLB average, 57% — Ichiro, 45% Ichiro’s doubles with a man on 1st only were also less likely to drive in the runner — 33% for Ichiro, 40% MLB. Look at RBI from the leadoff spot for the AL from 2001-13, per 700 PAs: — AL average,… Read more »

paget
paget
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

John/@88, Two things. 1. You make an undeniable point regarding Ichiro’s singles. With all those infield hits (he must hold the liveball-era record, no?) his singles are definitely less valuable than most hitters’ singles. Even so, looked at en masse all of his singles are clearly still much more valuable than a corresponding amount of walks. (This is a point that is generally worth thinking about with respect to high average/low walks hitters who, in my opinion, are often given short shrift nowadays). 2. You write below: “I don’t see why having one’s 10 best years in a row (followed… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Just looking at their first nine years in the league:

Lofton

50.8 WAR

r
118
60
115

Ichiro

51.0 WAR

r
150
48
95
_______________

So, the tricky numbers describe what we already suspected from the eye test… Ichiro was the superior batsman, and Lofton was on another level with his feet and glove.

And here a COG named Gwynn, first nine full seasons:

45.6 WAR

r
199
17
71

Artie Z
Artie Z
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

I’m not sure where this is going to end up in the thread, and it’s a ridiculously long post, but it is in response to JA’s comments about Ichiro vs. Randy Winn in CF. I’m trying to make a bigger point than Ichiro vs. Lofton – I’m not really a fan of either which is why I made a case for Ichiro (you won’t see me make a case for Keith Hernandez because I would be completely biased). The larger point is this – as a group of fans we always talk about context. Fans of advanced stats dislike RBI… Read more »

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Ichiro has 286 career games in center.

His Rfield is 1.

Scroll down to Sabermetric Fielding here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/suzukic01-field.shtml) and you’ll see the positional breakdowns of his Rfield.

Also, and this is unverified, but the one source on the internet I can find says Ichiro also played right in Japan.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

@64/tag, “I’ve never understood the lack of love that Kenny Lofton gets.” I think that a lot of it has to do with all the bouncing around MLB Lofton did his last seven years – ten teams in those seven years, counting separately his two stints with the Indians. (that’s got to be close to some sort of record, right??). His perception went to from being a solid All-Star (6 straight years from 1994-99; MVP and RoY votes the two years before that) and one of the better players in baseball, to in the end the ultimate journeyman. (Remember that… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Tommy Davis played for 10 teams, and changed teams 12 times. That includes the Yankees for whom he was property but was released prior to the start of the season (1976). From 1966 to 1970 he played for 6 teams.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

That Rickey Henderson guy was pretty well traveled, though most of it was past his prime and he kept going back to Oakland.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

@71/Artie Z,

Rickey was on eight teams in his last seven years to Lofton’s 10 teams, but he moved around before that more than Lofton, plus he was considerably better than Lofton, so I’ll give it to Rickey.

Rickey had already established himself as an all-time great before his travels, so his reputation didn’t suffer much when he started going from team to team.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Are you guys speaking to the assumed perception that traveling late in a career hurts a great player’s reputation, or are you stating that as your own opinion?

Either way, can you explain WHY?
Is it that if the guy didn’t sign an unmovable beast of a 10-year contract at age 31 he must not be great?

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

@75/VZ, I am not assuming it, I am merely stating that (“…traveling late in a career hurts a great player’s reputation…”) is often the perception of many MLB observers. Even great players often change teams several times at the end of their careers. Looking at the all-time 25 players in WAR, about half finished their careers with a different team than the one they are most associated with. However, to move around as much as Kenny Lofton, or Rickey!, or Willie Davis (or Bobo Newsom) is quite unusual. When unusual events happen, it is human nature to try to find… Read more »

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

What’s really strange about it is we should be giving Lofton a boost for having one of the more productive last-quarters of a long career for a centerfielder. Centerfield WAR, age 35+: 1. Willie Mays – 35.8 2. Tyrus Cobb – 31.4 3. Tris Speaker -29.6 4. Kenny Lofton – 15.4 5. Steve Finley – 13.8 6. Brett Butler – 11.0 So Lofton late in his career was as good in center as anybody except three Inner Circle greats. Instead of assuming Lofton was traded a lot late in his career because he was not wanted by the teams doing… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

@80 Certainly true that teams wanted him. Atlanta got him to upgrade from Grissom and to unload Justice after an injury year. The Giants got him for the stretch drive because Tsuyoshi Shinjo was their CF. They went to the WS. The Cubs got him for the stretch drive because Corey Patterson got hurt. They almost made it to the WS. The Yankees were the only team to not use him as a full-time player, and gave him to the Phillies, who had just endured a 54 ops from Marlon Byrd. And finally the Indians wanted him for the stretch… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

VZ@16 –

I think my choices in your hypothetical scenario would in large part depend on the run-scoring environment of my team and their time; in a high-offense era, and/or in a hitter’s park, I’d probably go for at least 2 of the 3 pitchers on the ballot (Marichal in particular for those big years); in a low-offense environment, I’d probably load up on hitters.

BryanM
BryanM
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

V@ 16, you had me at runs scored. Like Tim McCarver, I’m a firm believer in scoring more runs as a technique for winning , and think the leaders in run scoring are under-appreciated- Kenny never led the league in RS, although he was top 5 a few years — a very high OBP with some power is a common formula for leading the league and Kenny did not quite fit that mold. That said his career efficiency at turning times on base into runs , at 43% must be one of the best ever. I’m switching from my customary… Read more »

Low T
Low T
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo broke my bubble candidate tie. Nice job. Apologies to Sandberg and McCovey, give me:

B. Robinson
R. Santo
K. Lofton

RonG
RonG
10 years ago

Robinson, McCovey, Grich

Stubby
10 years ago

McCovey, Brooks Robinson, Diego Segui

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Bouton and Dooley Womack were tied at 0.4
Ralph Houk was correct !

(this is funny to those who get it, and a complete freakin’ non-sequitor to those who don’t)

Stubby
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Original Pilot AND original Mariner. I luvz me some Diego Segui. OTOH, I would never vote for Gaylord Perry, the cheat.

Josh
Josh
10 years ago

Juan Marichal, Brooks Robinson, John Smoltz

Aaron Blower
Aaron Blower
10 years ago

Perry, Robinson, Martinez

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago

Sandberg, Santo, Perry

This continues to get harder and harder. There are at least 4 others that I would vote for now if I could and 3 or 4 more that I probably will in the fullness of time.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

here is a quick hooray for ‘the fullness of time’!

[both as an expression and for the concept]

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

If you’re going to steal, only steal the best- that’s my motto!

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
10 years ago

Juan Marichal, Dick Allen, Kenny Lofton Thanks to Redemption Rounds, this won’t be the bitter end, but I do feel the need to be a ‘bitter-ender’ for Allen, who was awesome, if not for the triple whammy of reserved rights, injuries and simmering post-integration race trouble, the awesomeness might have lasted for a whole career. Definitely a Shorter Career Great (What-if Great?). I think Lofton belongs, but don’t quite think that this is the time for it, although I don’t want him to go back to Redemption-land with only a whimper of voting. I don’t think that we need more… Read more »

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
10 years ago

oops, I really meant “a future round” for Robinson- entirely not intended as a curse.

opal611
opal611
10 years ago

For the 1937-Part 2 election, I’m voting for:
-Ryne Sandberg
-Edgar Martinez
-Gaylord Perry

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Robinson
-Biggio
-Smoltz
-Whitaker
-Grich
-Lofton
-Santo
-McCovey
-Murray

aweb
aweb
10 years ago

Perry, Robinson, Grich

KalineCountry
KalineCountry
10 years ago

Lou Whitaker
Brooks Robinson
Juan Marichal

koma
koma
10 years ago

Lou Whitaker, John Smoltz, Craig Biggio

JEV
JEV
10 years ago

Perry, McCovey, Marichal

--bill
--bill
10 years ago

Brooks Robinson, Gaylord Perry, Bobby Grich.

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
10 years ago

Biggio, Marichal, Smoltz.

Francisco
Francisco
10 years ago

Marichal, Perry, B. Robinson

jajacob
jajacob
10 years ago

Whitaker, Robinson, Perry.

Once umpired Ward in a senior slow pitch game. The only reason I knew he had played was because he had accidently left his wallet at the field and cameback to retrieve thevwallet.

birtelcom
birtelcom
10 years ago
Reply to  jajacob

Most Position Player WAR, White Sox, By Decade:
1901-1909: George Davis
1910-1919: Eddie Collins
1920-1929: Eddie Collins
1930-1939: Luke Appling
1940-1949: Luke Appling
1950-1959: Nellie Fox
1960-1969: Pete Ward
1970-1979: Chet Lemon
1980-1989: Carlton Fisk
1990-1999: Frank Thomas
2000-2009: Paul Konerko
2010-2013: Alexei Ramirez

Somebody should name a trophy after Pete Ward (best hitter on the worst-hitting team in the league?), just so we can call it a Ward Award.

BryanM
BryanM
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

perhaps a dWAR ward award?

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  BryanM

C’mon, fellas, you know the ground rules — no pepper games in front of stands, and no Ward-play on the greensward.

But if you make it the Duane Ward dWAR Ward Award, all is forgiven. There might even be a reward.

Abbott
Abbott
10 years ago

Biggio, Marichal, McCovey

Mo
Mo
10 years ago

Whitaker, Brooks Robinson, McCovey

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago

Voting for my favorite non-existent COG composite player, Murray Allen Sandberg:

– Eddie Murray
– Dick Allen
– Ryan Sandberg

I don’t what I’m going to do without Roberto Alomar to vote for… oh yes I do, I just did it above.

Winfield, Stargell, Eckersley, Puckett, Brock all fell off the COG ballot – wow, that illustrates perfectly,the higher standards for the COG vs. the HOF; five 1st-ballot HOFers not even on our ballots anymore.

Bix
Bix
10 years ago

Allen, Lofton, Santo

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons:

Perry 50.9
Grich 43.6
Santo 43.3
Whitaker 42.7
Brooks 42.4
Martinez 41.3
Smoltz 40.1
Lofton 39.3
McCovey 38.9
Sandberg 38.8
Biggio 36.3
Allen 35.9
Murray 34.9
Marichal 32.7

The career leader in dWAR for a non-shortstop is compelling, and probably deserves a spot in the circle, but for now I’m sticking with:

Perry, Smoltz, Martinez

Paul E
Paul E
10 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

B O’C:
Most WAA/162 games…excluding pitchers and negative seasons:

3.518 Grich
3.325 Allen
3.256 Martinez
3.127 Santo
3.027 Lofton
2.905 Sandberg
2.894 Whitaker
2.435 McCovey
2.372 Brooks
2.063 Biggio
1.868 Murray

I imagine those who have been voting for Allen based on the “eye test”, now have further empirical evidence of his exceptional talent

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Good stuff, Paul. I’m a little surprised to see that Allen was a better hitter than Edgar, as measured by OPS+, and not by an insignificant margin (156 to 147). Of course, Edgar did it for longer, which is worth something. I guess Edgar’s just a dot on the spectrum from Murray to Allen.

Paul E
Paul E
10 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Bryan: I should have responded to “bells” in #14 above and calculated across all three metrics per 162 games. Nor was it my intention to urinate on Edgar and his accomplishments during the greatest offensive era in the history of the game. I just wanted to indicate that Allen’s ranking on your list at 10th of 11 hitters was more a function of a short career…But, it sure must have been sweet hitting in a lineup with Junior, Jethroe Buhner, a juiced Brett Boone and A-Rod, and Tino Martinez. As a child growing up in Philadelphia, Allen was arguably the… Read more »

bells
bells
10 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Hey PaulE, just to note that I’ve read and digested your comments… I’m interested in possibly using that per 162 analysis to determine peak. Good stuff, your comments are well noted.

MJ
MJ
10 years ago

Gaylord Perry, Brooks Robinson, and Lou Whitaker

RJ
RJ
10 years ago

Perry, Robinson and Marichal. Still not sure how I feel about the last of those.

PaulE
PaulE
10 years ago

Allen McCovey Sandberg

Darien
10 years ago

Perry, Santo, and Lofton.

bells
bells
10 years ago

haha, I just looked at the voting spreadsheet for the first time and absentmindedly kept trying to scroll to the left because I instinctively knew Smoltz wasn’t the first name on the sheet. A case of the ‘phantom spreadsheet Alomar’.

MikeD
MikeD
10 years ago
Reply to  bells

Alomar.

Write-in vote? : -)

MikeD
MikeD
10 years ago

Brooks, Biggio, McCovey.

Kirk
Kirk
10 years ago

Brooks Robinson and a shout out to my 1960’s White Sox heroes Jaun Pizarro and Gary Peters.

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
10 years ago
Reply to  Kirk

Was it a tough choice, picking Pizarro and Peters over Charley Smith and Pete Ward?

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
10 years ago

If you were to construct a lineup featuring players with only one last name, the Robinsons would probably give you the most bang for your buck. Or so said a book on ideal all-time lineups I read in the 1980s.

With my ballot this round, you’d never know that the O’s won the only playoff series my Sox ever played in a 33-year period (1960-92).

BrRobinson
EMurray
CBiggio

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

I have a hazy recollection that in his New Historical Abstract, Bill James briefly discussed the question of what the best ‘one-name’ team would be (I haven’t been able to find the reference, though – maybe it was in a different book?). If I recall correctly (which, as we see, I’m not sure I do), he concluded the best would be some very common name, such as Smith, simply because they had the depth to field a plausible actual team. Names such as Robinson and Williams have good star power, and a rotation of Johnsons would be formidable, but you… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Most common names in ML history:
Smith, 145
Johnson, 106
Jones, 95
Brown, 85
Miller, 84
Williams, 73
Wilson, 70
Davis, 66

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago

So many Millers, but few good ones — no HOFers, 3 All-Stars.

John Z
John Z
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

When I read your entry, I immediately thought of Miller Huggins, I know you are only discussing surnames. Huggins was not inducted into the Hall as a player but as a manager.

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Good point, John Z — and the Mighty Mite was a good player, amassing 35.5 WAR (22.4 WAR per 1,000 games). He missed the cutoff for my Lou Whitaker All-Stars, but he fits the mold — nine years with at least 2.5 WAR, but none over 4.3.

I wonder if he would have made any All-Star teams, had it existed then. He ranked 9th in OBP in the dead-ball era (out of 71 players with 5,000 PAs) and was 2nd in walks, but he batted .300 just once.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

@97/birtelcom, Do you mean JOHNNY EVERS of the Cubs, not Frank Chance, as the top NL second baseman after 1906? Huggins had a solid career – he ranks 53rd all-time amongst second baseman, by Jay Jaffe’s JAWS HOF evaluation system. Mazeroski is only three spots ahead, and Red Schoendienst 19 (34th). Huggins had almost no power(even 2Bs/3Bs) and only a decent average (.265 vs. NL-average .261), but was a good fielder and of course drew tons of walks (led four times, in the Top-10 11 times). Interestingly, Evers shows up as as his 2nd Most Similar Player. (Useless minutiae: many… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago

Here’s a Williams team:

OF: Ted, Bernie, Billy, Ken, Cy, Walter
C: Earl
1B: Harry
2B: Davey
SS: Otto
3B: Matt
P: Stan, Woody, Mitch

Due to glaring weaknesses at 1B and SS some shifting around is necessary. Remove Otto at SS, move Matt to SS, replace him with Dick at 3B. Remove Harry and replace him with one of the OF (not Ted).

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago

@98/RC, If it’s a DH league, you could have: LF – Ken CF – Bernie RF – Billy (not sure who had the stronger arm between Ken/Billy, but Billy did play 381 games in RF) DH – Ted (if there were a DH during the end of his career, he might’ve played till about age 50…) I’d put Cy at first and take my chances. You left out Claude (Lefty) Williams as a pitcher. Yeah, I know, one of the bribed ‘Black Sox”, but still the best of the pitching Williamses. The Robinsons have awesome position players, but no pitcher… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

@101/LA

For pitching Robinsons you could have Don Robinson and Ron Robinson, and I suppose Jeff (D) Robinson; none of whom were stars, but all of whom were at least serviceable pitchers for a stretch.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago

@101 and 102: The awesome Robinsons would be OF Frank, 2B Jackie and 3B Brooks. The other 2 OF positions could be filled by Bill and Floyd, 1B by Eddie and C by Aaron, all of whom had decent careers. The weakness is SS where I found only 1 Robinson, Craig, who had a career OPS+ of 43 in 292 games. It’s hard to move players around because BR lists just 1 Robinson at each of 2B, 3B and SS. The only way to get a decent team is to cheat a little. Shift Jackie to SS and put Robinson… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

Here’s a team of Johnsons: C: Charles (22.5 bWAR) 1B: Nick (14.6) 2B: Davey (27.6) SS: Ernie (7.8) 3B: Howard (22.1) LF: Indian Bob (57.1) CF: Lance (30.1) RF: Roy (16.5) DH: Cliff (16.2) SP: Walter (152.3) SP: Randy (104.3) SP: Josh (23.8) SP: Syl (29.4) SW: Ken (20.4) RA: Jim (10.4) I’d never heard of Syl Johnson, either – journeyman pitcher of the ’20s and ’30s. The Ken Johnson of his times, if you will. The lineup looks pretty solid to me (except at SS) – no superstars, but otherwise full of good to very good players. To cover… Read more »

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Found it! Bill James wrote it on the commentary for 1B #39 – Bill White. He felt the White team would be the best.

C Sammy White
1B Bill White
2B Frank White
SS Another) Bill White (1884-1888)
3B Deacon White
LF Roy White
CF Devon White
RF Rondell White
P Doc White, Will White, Ernie White, Hal White, and others.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

@103/Chris C, The most logical way to do this would be to fill out an entire 25-man roster, filled only by players who actually played that position in MLB. Then – add up the career WAR. A less exhausting aproach would be to put together a 14-17 player team: – 8 position players – 4 (or five?) starting pitchers – closer – backup catcher – backup infielder? – backup outfielder? and add up the career WAR. The White team is pretty solid at every position, with AS-type players everywhere except SS. Even the 2nd Bill Whiite was a regular several… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Aha, there it is! Many thanks, Chris C – good to know my memory isn’t yet completely decrepit!

Mike L
Mike L
10 years ago

Seems an appropriate time to wish thanks and Happy New Year to the COG writers here-John A, Doug, Birtelcom, Brian O’Connor, David Hruska, Dan McClosky, Adam Darowski and of course, Andy. And anyone else I missed (do I recall a piece by Richard Chester?) Too many names to fit on the ballot, but I think we can suspend the rules this once.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

Thanks, Mike. I’ll add Stacey, Dalton, Ashley, and Neal to my ballot.

robbs
robbs
10 years ago

Whitaker Smoltz Biggio

Looks like good chance to get holdovers in with no new “First HHS COG Ballot” shoe-ins, though I was tempted by Brooks, the Ozzie of 3rd baseman.

Jeff Hill
Jeff Hill
10 years ago

Im so happy to see all the love coming(and deservingly so) to Kenny Lofton. I’ve only been preaching his greatness for about a year now…sarcasm. Anyway…
Lofton, Smoltz, Santo

paget
paget
10 years ago

McCovey
Perry
Smoltz

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Vote:

Kenny Lofton
Gaylord Perry
Lou Whitaker

Two underrated fellas and a great pitcher.