Circle of Greats: 1924 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 58th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1924.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

This week’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.  As usual, the new group of 1924-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EDT Thursday, May 22, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EDT Tuesday, May 20.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1924 Round Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1924 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The 13 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The new group of 1924 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Sandy Koufax (eligibility guaranteed for 12 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Duke Snider (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round  only)

Everyday Players (born in 1924, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Gil Hodges
Sherm Lollar
Ted Kluszewski
Earl Torgeson
Ed Fitz Gerald
Bobby Avila
Irv Noren
Al Rosen
Charlie Silvera

Pitchers (born in 1924, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Hal Brown
Warren Hacker
Hal Jeffcoat
Alex Kellner
Turk Lown

Hal Jeffcoat is listed here as a pitcher, although he could just as easily be listed as an everyday player.  He was an outfielder for the Cubs for six seasons, from 1948 through 1953, Chicago’s starting center fielder for much of that time. Then with the start of the 1954 season he switched, cold turkey, to pitching, and was a solid performer on the mound for the next six seasons, with the Cubs, then the Reds and finally the Cardinals in his last few months in the majors. I’ve listed him here as a pitcher because his WAR suggests he was more valuable on the mound — pretty much just a replacement player as an outfielder but a cut above that as a pitcher.  Each on its own, neither his stint as a hitter nor his stint as a pitcher would get him on the COG ballot, but by combining the two Jeffcoat stitched together a long major league career.

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Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
9 years ago

Martinez, Lofton, Snider

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

John Smoltz, Edgar Martinez, Kenny Lofton

Mo
Mo
9 years ago

Ashburn; koufax, snider

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Koufax, McCovey, Smoltz

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Biggio, Sandberg, Edgar

Bix
Bix
9 years ago

Koufax, Snider, McCovey

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

If the early votes are any indication, this is going to be a crazy round.

Artie Z
Artie Z
9 years ago
Reply to  MJ

And so will the next two (three – 1922 part 1 and 2?) rounds. If I’ve done my searches correctly, Hoyt Wilhelm leads all players born in 1922 or 1923 with 50.1 WAR. Ralph Kiner and Larry Doby lead position players with over 49 WAR.

At least in 1921 we get what should be a very simple election (Spahn).

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z

Yes, there will be three more rounds after this one (1923 and the 2-part 1922) with no top-shelf new candidates appearing on the ballot. So the holdover list should get whittled down considerably, and I expect we’ll have a series of close elections.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z

On the other hand, all three of the guys you mention have enough specialness that they could end up on the holdover ballot, despite being well behind most of our guys in WAR. Kiner had a monster peak, accumulating all his WAR in only 10 years. He’s like the Koufax of batters. Doby is like Minoso, a very early color line crosser who you can debate how many good seasons he probably lost to segregation, and how much what he had to put up with affected his later career. And Wilhelm is probably the #2 reliever in MLB history. Rivera… Read more »

brp
brp
9 years ago

I’m considering voting for Wilhelm entirely on the argument you’ve made (pretty reasonable choice as #2 reliever in MLB history).

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Martinez 41.3
Smoltz 40.1
Lofton 39.3
Snider 39.2
McCovey 38.9
Sandberg 38.8
Biggio 36.3
Ashburn 33.9
Murray 33.7
Killebrew 33.0
Koufax 32.3
Minoso 30.6
Ford 29.3
Hodges 19.1

Smoltz, Martinez, Minoso

brp
brp
9 years ago

Snider
Lofton
E Martinez

Mike
Mike
9 years ago

Koufax
Smoltz
McCovey

RJ
RJ
9 years ago

Martinez, Lofton, Snider.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

Seeing as nobody I vote for seems to get elected anymore, I just keep repeating myself

Smoltz, Ford, Koufax

Abbott
Abbott
9 years ago

Murray, Biggio, McCovey

Darien
9 years ago

Lofton, Sandberg, and Martinez

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Smoltz, Edgar, Koufax

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Koufax
Smoltz
Martinez

koma
koma
9 years ago

Sandy Koufax, John Smoltz, Craig Biggio

David P
David P
9 years ago

Snider, Murray, Sandberg

Steve
Steve
9 years ago

Sandy Koufax; Whitey Ford; Willie McCovey

JamesS
JamesS
9 years ago

Snider, Edgar, Gil Hodges. Why Hodges? Because my mother would haunt me if I didn’t.

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
9 years ago

Biggio, Koufax, Ford.

Dan McCloskey
Editor
9 years ago

Koufax, Martinez, Snider

jajacob
jajacob
9 years ago

Smoltz, Lofton, Snider

J.R.
J.R.
9 years ago

Ford, Biggio, Killebrew

BillH
BillH
9 years ago

Ford, McCovey, Murray

wx
wx
9 years ago

Sandy Koufax, Richie Ashburn, Edgar Martinez

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Snider should have 4 rounds of eligibility.

Artie Z
Artie Z
9 years ago

Eddie, Edgar, and the Duke

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

I’m on the fence about Ashburn & Minoso- I voted for Minoso in the last round because I felt he needed time on the ballot for people to give him due consideration. That said I don’t think either of them are surefire COGer’s or in the top 3 on the ballot.

A few very good newcomers but none that are HOF worthy much less COG.

Snider, McCovey, Sandberg

but this might be the first time in a long, long time when I change my vote at the deadline.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I think both Minoso and Ashburn have benefited from good timing – if either of them had been born in 1931 or 1934 or ’35 I doubt they’d have made it to a second round of voting.

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
9 years ago

Once again, Sandy, Duke, and Smoltzie.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Some random tidbits on this ballot’s new additions. – Gil Hodges’ 9 consecutive seasons (1949-57) with 20 to 29 doubles is the majors’ longest such streak, tied with Harry Hooper (1911-19), Luis Aparicio (1964-72), Doug Rader (1969-77), Ken Griffey (1979-87) and Tom Brunansky (1983-91), with Brunansky the only one of those six to bookend that streak with two 30-double seasons. – Sherm Lollar is the youngest catcher with 2 runs scored in his first career post-season game (1947), edging out Del Rice who had set the mark for the Cardinals the previous season. – Ted Kluszewski’s 171 home runs led… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

For the Charlie Silvera question I found three catchers, Corky Miller, Randy Knorr and Matt Sinatro, and one position player, John Wehner.
During Silvera’s tenure, 1948-1957, he had the third highest BA for catchers with 500+ PA. His .282 mark trailed only Yogi and Smoky. The Yankee game has just started so I will not be answering any questions for a while.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

John Wehner is the answer to the Silvera question.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Working between innings of what I shall tactfully refer to as the game between the two NY teams, the answer to the Warren Hacker question is Catfish Hunter and Luis Tiant.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Starter Denny McClain debuted against starter Fritz Ackley on 9-21-63. They each got a hit in that game in their second at-bats. On 9-25-44 starter Charlie Gassaway of the Cubs debuted against Charlie Ripple of the Phils who was making his debut also as a starter. They each got a hit in their first at-bats.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

J.R. Richard, Bob Forsch, Joaquin Benoit.

Sammy Ellis was the opposing starter in the Gaylord Perry game.

Down a notch, Rick Porcello and Ricky Romero opposed each other in their career debuts.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

I should have explained that my post #48 was for opposing debuting starters who also had a base hit in that game.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Correct answer, Richard.

Catfish also went the other way, following a 35 HR season with a WHIP under 1.000 season. Don Newcombe is the only other pitcher to do that, and he led the NL in WHIP in both of those seasons.

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

A bit more on Al Rosen.

His 37 home runs as a rookie was the most for a 3rd baseman, breaking Harlond Clift’s record from 1938.

A few years later (1953) – he and Eddie Mathews became the first 3rd baseman to hit 40+ home runs in a season. That same season he set long-standing marks for 3rd baseman in OPS, OPS+, Total bases and RBIs. Brett bested his OPS and OPS+ numbers in 1980, Vinny Castilla took the Total base crown in 1998, and it wasn’t till 2007 that A-rod broke Rosen’s RBI record.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Nice addition, David.

Thanks,

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Rosen’s 37 HRs in 1950 was the AL rookie record until someone named McGwire hit 49 in 1987. It is still the second highest total.

The NL record, by the way, was set in 1930 by Wally Berger at 38 dingers, a figure tied by Frank Robinson in 1956.

If Barry Bonds had been thinking as a youth the way he thought in his thirties, who knows, the NL rookie record might now be 50.

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

One more note re: Al Rosen…he still holds the single season WAR record at 3rd base. In fact, he’s the only 3rd baseman with a 10+ WAR season. Of course Brett likely would have smashed the record in 1980 had he stayed healthy, but he obviously didn’t.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I found 3 first basemen with 120+ runs in their only 100+ run season, but one of them is an AL player: Derrek Lee, Felipe Alou, and Rod Carew.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Lee and Alou are the correct answer to the question of who matched Torgeson’s feat of 120 runs in a lone 100 run season as an NL first baseman.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Who is Jackie Robinson? He led the NL in AVG and SH in 1949 (Bobby Avila question).

And who is Rocco Baldelli? He had 2.5 WAR and qualified for the batting title in his first two seasons, but never had a season with 500+ PAs again (Irv Norven question).

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! “And who is Rocco Baldelli?” is the GREATEST question anyone has ever asked on this site! If you ask one random SI article from his rookie year, he’s the next DiMaggio (that’s slightly exaggerating; here’s the article: http://www.cnnsi.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1028831/index.htm. That, unfortunately, didn’t work out too well for him. His WAR numbers his first three total years (he missed ’05 due to injury) are pretty good: baseball-reference has him at 2.9, 3.0, and 3.2 WAR ’03-’06. As it turns out, there is some value in an average-hitting, average-fielding CF. But that value is… you know… average. Thanks for THAT trip down… Read more »

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Right and right, Artie Z.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

The Ted Kluszewski stat that’s most amazing isn’t that he hit 171 HR to lead the NL in that four-year stretch. It’s that he did so striking out only 140 times TOTAL… or as Mark Reynolds calls it, a good half-season’s worth (kidding).

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Klu is one of three players with HR > SO for 4 or more consecutive seasons. Joe D, (5 seasons) and Bill Dickey (4 seasons) are the other two.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

RC,

You neglected to mention that Klu matched the Clipper’s mark of 5 straight seasons (albeit with 6 HR and 5 SO in an abbreviated 5th season).

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Good call, Dr. Doom, although those 171 HR led the majors, not just the NL, and were 34 more (about a season’s worth) than AL leader Mickey Mantle.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Ken Griffey, Sr. also had 9 consecutive seasons (1979-1987) of 20 to 29 doubles.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Thanks Richard,

I updated the comment.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

A little off-topic but related to Hodges’ 9 consecutive seasons of 20 to 29 doubles, Nellie Fox had 15 consecutive seasons of 11 to 18 SO. No one else has done that, not even pitchers.

Stubby
9 years ago

Gil Hodges, Lofton, Ashburn Gil Hodges absolutely belongs in the Hall of Fame. I know the feeling here is that that’s a lower bar than the COG. But I believe the COG also exists to correct the “mistakes” of the Hall (in both directions). Gil was absolutely one of the greats. A clutch hitter and a great fielding first baseman. I’m not much for the numbers game; I know what I saw with my own eyes. I only saw Gil at the tail end of his career and still you could tell he was greatness personified. And its always a… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Career WAR of the starting lineup of the 1955 Dodgers:

66.5 Duke
66.3 Pee Wee
61.5 Jackie
44.9 Gil Hodges
40.7 Jim Gilliam
35.1 Carl Furillo
34.2 Campy
7.4 Sandy Amoros
and
21.2 Don Hoak

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

You could make a pretty good argument that the 3 best 1st baseman of the 50’s are all on this ballot (Hodges, Kluszewski, Torgeson).

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig:

1) Mickey Vernon over Torgeson, I’d say.

2) Gil and Ted are just the best of a bunch who fall short somewhat of players at that position in other decades, for whatever reason. I don’t agree with some here that Hodges should be a HOFer. He was beloved as a player and as a manager, and that clouds the issue. The Hall of Very Good, sure.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Hall of Stats has Hodges as only a 76 rating, well short of the 100 needed for that Hall.

Like many first basemen, Hodges has a mountain to climb to overcome their high negative positional adjustments.

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

NSB: I agree with your position re: Hodges. At the same time, I feel that WAR is a bit “unfair” to first basemen. It’s just really hard to accumulate WAR while playing first. Start with baserunning. Most first basemen aren’t very fast so they’re going to be average or below average in that area. Fielding? There are 71 players with 100+ Rfield but only 3 were primarily first baseman. So even the best first baseman don’t get much Rfield. And that’s BEFORE you take into account the negative position adjustment from playing first. Once that’s accounted for, even the best… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

The thing is, most first basemen overcome the mountain with a big booming bat. And that’s just not what Rbat is showing for Hodges. It may seem strange, but it’s really his hitting that is keeping his WAR down. There are 64 first basemen (50% of games played) with 150+ Rbat. Hodges is way down on the list, with his 200 Rbat ranking him 49th all-time among 1B (he’s 31st in PAs). That’s half of Fred McGriff. If you want someone a little closer in PAs (McGriff has about 2000 more PAs), Will Clark has about 150 more PAs and… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Definitely Artie Z! That’s why I wrote that first baseman need to MASH and not just mash.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

David – I think most people think of Hodges as a MASHer though. When he retired he was 11th all-time in HRs and there were only 22 players with more than 300 HRs. Only two active players with 300+ HR at the time who were behind him (Aaron and Banks) would eventually pass him (the M&M&M boys, Mantle, Mays, and Mathews, were active but already ahead of Hodges). Even extending the time period to 1993 his 370 HRs is still 38th all-time, and most of the players who subsequently passed him had a lot more opportunities (guys like Yaz, Murray,… Read more »

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I disagree that the mountain is unfairly high. Hodges just didn’t do that much with his bat. Ashburn has a comparable rBat, yes he played CF, and played it really well. Guys on here who’s primary claim to fame is defensive excellence or speed combined with merely above average bats have comparable hitting value to Hodges. Even if you give him 0 rPos, he still only would end up with about 53 WAR, and he’d be borderline for the hall of stats, clearly below our borderline COG candidates. Part of his problem (because he did hit a little better than… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

In response to Artie Z (#98) and Michael Sullivan (#114). I understand that the perception of Hodges is that he was a MASHEer. But I’m not talking about perception. I’m talking about WAR and the difficulty that first baseman have in accumulating WAR. Just looking at the extreme, there are (I think) 55 seasons of 10+ WAR by a position player but only 3 of those are by first baseman (though third baseman have even fewer, only 1). Gehrig has 2 of the 10+ WAR seasons and Foxx has the other. It’s been 80 years since a first baseman had… Read more »

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Here’s a better analogy for why Hodges shouldn’t even sniff the COG. Consider Keith Hernandez as a comparison to Hodges. Hernandez didn’t get much take up from the hall voters, and there’s no major campaign to get him back on the ballot — he’s not considered a massive snub, even though many people have him in their personal halls. He had almost no support for COG either in his year (one and done at 4.98%, got less support than Dan Quisenberry!, or on the redemption ballot. So very few people consider him a realistic candidate for COG. And yet he… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

David – to me, a 10 WAR season is such a rarity that it’s difficult to really understand anything about WAR patterns from just looking at 10 WAR seasons. Pujols has been close to 10 WAR, and Bagwell was on pace for 10 WAR in 1994 until (1) the strike and (2) he broke his wrist or hand (I forget what it was) so the strike didn’t really matter. I’m not sure how well this will format but I will give it a try: 10+ 9.0-9.99 8.0-8.99 7.0-7.99 7+ 1B 0 6 10 27 43 2B 1 7 12 21… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago

@66/nsb, I think that Gil Hodges benefits from the nostalgiac haze of affection for “‘Dem Old Bums”, the Brooklyn Dodgers of the late 40s to mid 50s. As nsb and several other have commented, Hodges was merely the best of the 50s First Basemen, which by itself is not enough evidence for a HOF campaign. Also, even in his own time, I don’t think Hodges was regarded anywhere as highly as his other Dodger team-mates that are in the HOF. As evidence, I offer the MVP voting. Granted, this is often not the best evaluation of player, but it does… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

@132/ME;

OOPS! I meant to say:

“…Gil Hodges was _NOT_ regarded as highly On the DODGERS, as a number of his other team mates, including one non-HOFer.”

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

. My computer is being RIDICULOUSLY slow, so I’ve been trying to write “a couple quick posts” and it’s taken over 20 minutes. Hopefully, the wife won’t be too mad. 😉 Duke Snider Ryne Sandberg and, making his debut on my ballot, a personal favorite and the player I most admired as a hitter growing up: Edgar Martinez! Finally, a shout-out to Al Rosen, who came a couple of hits away from a Triple Crown (lost out to Mickey Vernon by .017), had one of the oddest career arcs in ML history, cut short on both ends. Definitely one of… Read more »

Francisco
Francisco
9 years ago

Duke Snider, Orestes Miñoso, Craig Biggio

jeff hill
jeff hill
9 years ago

Smoltz, Lofton, Edgar Martinez.

I will NEVER vote for Koufax. 6 dominant years should not exclude the same amount of bad to average years he had IMHO.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  jeff hill

Because the careers of so many of our finest were at peak value between ages 19 and 24. There are COG players that had lower WAR totals before their year 25 seasons.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

To add some stats to mosc’s comment: 1. Koufax had 6.6 WAR before his age 25 season. 2. It’s not ahead of a lot of HOF hitters, particularly ones we’ve elected to the COG. But HOF hitters generally get started before age 24, particularly those we elect to the COG (I see Ozzie and Boggs as having less than 6.6 WAR before age 25 but Boggs only had 104 games under his belt and Ozzie was surviving on defense, posting -43 Rbat because of his sub-.300 OBP AND SLG numbers). 3. 6.6 WAR before age 25 is 38th all-time among… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Artie Z, I think your WAR comparison doesn’t work very well. Koufax had six years to make it to his 6.6. Ford had 5.8 in two years, with two years lost to the military. Perry and Gibson both made it to the bigs at age 23, so two years apiece there, too. With Glavine and Ryan the comparison is more valid, four years apiece plus a 3-inning stint at 19 for Ryan. When you look at it in detail, though, these seem more like contrasts than comparisons. As for the feller named Feller, using your method he produced 7.6 WAR… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago

Oops—5.3 for ford in 2 years.

PaulE
PaulE
9 years ago

McCovey, Sandberg,Snider

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Martinez, McCovey, Snider

Josh
Josh
9 years ago

Snider, Smoltz, Gil Hodges

aweb
aweb
9 years ago

Martinez, Smoltz, Killebrew

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Ford, Minoso, Ashburn

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago

Biggio, Lofton, Ashburn

I’m not sure I could handle it if I ever voted for a holdover that actually wins. Last one was probably Clemente.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Koufax, Ford, Snider

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago

I could vote for three of the 1959 pennant-winning White Sox (Lollar, Torgeson, Klu), but that would leave off Miñoso.

Kluszewski is one of four players with 5 RBI in game 1 of the World Series, one of 10 with 2 HR (three with both). He also hit the first (and third) homerun ever for Los Angeles de Anaheim, on Opening Day 1961 before they even thought real hard about playing in Anaheim.

[X] Minoso
[X] Kluszewski
[X] Hodges
==================
[ _ ] Biggio
[ _ ] Murray
[ _ ] Killebrew
[ _ ] Torgeson
[ _ ] Ford

ATarwerdi96
ATarwerdi96
9 years ago

Duke Snider, Edgar Martinez, Willie McCovey

bstar
9 years ago

To anyone who saw Ted Klu play: how often did he go sleeveless? Was it everyday? Can you recall anyone else in his time or before (or even after) who cut the sleeves off his jersey?

It makes him kind of unique it seems.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I saw him play occasionally but I can’t say he always went sleeveless. The closest I remember anyone to being sleeveless was Roger Maris.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Make that “…anyone else to being sleeveless…”

bstar
9 years ago

That’s right! Maris cut his sleeves a bit also. Thanks!

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Wikipedia confirms my memory on this: the sleeveless thing was a gimmick for the whole “Redlegs” team in 1956, and went on a few years. Previously the Cubs wore sleeveless jerseys 1940-42.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Klu is profiled in Donald Honig’s “The Greatest First Basemen of All Time” – it’s a very short book profiling 20 post-1900 first basemen (about 6-7 pages on each of them). Klu on the sleeves, or lack thereof (there are 4 pictures of him in the book where you can see his upper body well enough to see if he is sleeveless, and none look like he is sleeveless, though one looks like a short sleeve uniform top): “When I first came up with the Reds in the late 1940s the uniforms at that particular time were wool flannel, and… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Upon looking at the picture of Klu with the Pirates in 1958, it may actually be a sleeveless uniform top, though he’s wearing a long sleeve shirt underneath it. It’s difficult for me to tell if it the uniform top is two separate pieces or just one piece that has black sleeves.

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

2001 Pirate media guide says:

1957: Pirates become the second team to adopt sleeveless jerseys.

It doesn’t say when sleeves were brought back, though.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  donburgh

Uniform images are available on BR. The Pirates wore their sleeveless uniforms until 1969. In 1970 they wore uniforms that were both sleeveless and with sleeves. Afterwards it was back to all uniforms with sleeves.

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago
Reply to  donburgh

Then the exact date would be July 16, 1970 – when Three Rivers opened and the Pirates changed uniforms.

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Not to deny Klu’s narrative, but there’s another pretty obvious cause of his power surge — the shortened fences in Crosley Field in 1953.

Total homers in Crosley Field more than doubled overnight, from an average of 88 in 1951-52 to 185 and up from 1953 onward.

Klu’s home HRs went from an average of 6 for 1951-52 to an average of 25 for 1953-56. His road HRs also rose, but only from an average of 9 for 1951-52 to 17 for the next four years.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

I kind of figured something like that happened – but rather than be proactive and Google it I figured I would post the quote and someone would fill me in 😉

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
9 years ago

Killebrew, McCovey, and Ford

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago

Killebrew, Biggio, Ford.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Tally note: the ballot @ 67 hasn’t been tallied yet.

PP
PP
9 years ago

Who is a circle of great? Dang, this is a tough round. Gotta go with Snider, Smoltz, Koufax

PP
PP
9 years ago
Reply to  PP

Tough round in that I think there’s a lot of borderline cases. Maybe everyone on the ballot. My instinct is to go with the big counting stats, I.e., Murray, Biggio, but still not sure they were better players than my choices, though Smoltz might fit that description. Maybe Steady Eddie was too steady. One big “Yaz” year would hAve put him in some rounds ago.