Circle of Greats: 1919 Part 2 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 65th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round completes the addition of those players born in 1919.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1919 are being be brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — with the bottom half by alphabetical order being included this round after the top half was brought on last round.  This round’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

As usual, the new group of 1919-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, July 27, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Friday, July 25.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1919 Round 2 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1919 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The 13 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The new group of 1919 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.  In total there were 18 players born in 1919 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement. Nine of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Vic Raschi to Al Zarilla).  The nine players with last names higher up in alphabetical order were added in the previous round.

Holdovers:
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ralph Kiner (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1919, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Eddie Waitkus
Johnny Wyrostek
Pete Reiser
Sherry Robertson
Jackie Robinson
Al Zarilla

Pitchers (born in 1919, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Hal White
Vic Raschi

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Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Voting a strict 2B ballot. Jackie Robinson, Craig Biggio, Ryne Sandberg

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

there’s also a catcher and a centerfielder on that ballot

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

And a 3B. And a 1B. And a SS. And a LF. And a RF. O’course, that’s just Jackie. Biggio also played a couple games in left. And Sandberg was famously started as a SS, and shifted to 3B his second year (first with the Cubbies), before making a near-permanent switch to 2B. He DID play another 3 games off the keystone corner following his second season (1982) – he played one at short in 1983, one more in 1985, and DH’d for one game in his final season, 1997. But every one of the 1393 games he played from… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

And there were a few games during the Summer of 70 when the Astros moved Biggio from second base to leftcenter field when McGwire was batting.

(I did not say ’70 because I did not mean ’70).

Sandberg set some fielding records for NL rookie 3Bs, which have since been broken.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

The 1919(1) results summary mention

Most Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, Baseball-Reference Version) By A First Baseman, 1940-1990
(includes players who played first base in at least half their career regular season MLB games)
1. Willie McCovey 64.4
2. Eddie Murray 63.2
3. Keith Hernandez 60.0
4. Tony Perez 53.9
5. Norm Cash 52.0

so unless I change it on Friday,

CBiggio
EMurray
JRobinson

because we only have 2 Robinsons in the Hall. Circle.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

So many players form these years with war-shortened careers.
Vic Raschi missed three years as a minor leaguer.
Didn’t have a full season until age 29.

Then won 5 WS games in 5 years – 6 rings total.
____________

WAR doesn’t care about wins.
Raschi’s run of 19,21,21,21 in the W column was good for a 2.7 avg.

PP
PP
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Had a nice even (though odd) .667 winning percentage

Gotta love those league leading strikeout totals: 164 in ’51 got you 18th place in 2013

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Hmmmm, high winning %, short career, pitched for great teams. Don Gullett, maybe?

Vic Raschi: 132-66, .667, 105 ERA+ in 1800 IP, 16.6 WAR
Don Gullett: 109-50, .686, 113 ERA+ in 1400 IP, 16.7 WAR

Gullett wasn’t as durable as Raschi but was probably a tick better rate-wise. The biggest advantage these pitchers had over starters on other teams? Never having to face their own offense.

Excellent team defense contributed to the success of both:

Raschi defense-adjusted ERA+: 101
Gullett defense-adjusted ERA+: 104

PP
PP
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Similar for sure, though Raschi started in MLB the same age Gullet was finished

Gullet went from The Big Red Machine to the ’77 ’78 Yankees before his arm issues, Raschi gave up Aaron’s 1st career home run

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

– First or 2nd season
– Up to age 22

Listed by WAR:

10.8… Mike Trout
8.8 … Dick Allen
8.8 … Rickey Henderson
8.3 … Eddie Mathews
8.2 … Joe DiMaggio
7.4 … PISTOL PETE Reiser

7.0 … Arky Vaughn
6.9 … Frank Robinson
6.8 … Troy Tulowitski
6.7 … Ted Williams
6.6 … Albert Pujols
6.6 … Grady Sizemore
6.5 … Mickey Mantle
6.5 … Vada Pinson
6.5 … Frank Robinson (yes, twice)

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Pitchers beating Pete:

12.1… Doc
9.6 … Bird
9.3 … Dutch
9.1 … Matty
8.3 … Big Ed
8.2 … Bill James (8.6 career)

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Pitchers
First or 2nd season
Age 40+

We have the fella who passed away just a few months ago as the oldest living major leaguer (102):
Connie Marrero

2.9 … Connie Marrero
2.3 … Diomedes Olivo
1.7 … Satchel Paige
1.6 … Alex McColl (5250 minor league innings)
1.6 … Satchel Paige
0.6 … Ken Takahashi

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

One guy not on your list who had his first or second season as a pitcher aged 40+ was Red Kress. Kress was a career infielder (he’s the only player with 100 games at 1B, 3B, SS and RF) who looked to have played his last major league game at age 35. He kept playing in the minors (even as he was dealt from the Red Sox to the Pirates to the Indians) still mainly as an infielder but with progressively more turns on the mound until he turned in 89 IP and 9 starts at age 40. That earned… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Frankford Pioneers, Philadelphia’s finest…well, at one time 🙁

I was very surprised to see Kress attended a Philadelphia HS, since the original MacMillan tome didn’t give that info and I believe he was born in CA

Francisco
Francisco
9 years ago

Jackie Robinson, Kevin Brown, Ralph Kiner

JasonZ
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Even more interesting, I would like to have
dinner with Jackie Robinson, Moses Walker
and Cap Anson.

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Jackie Robinson, and Johnny Wyrostek (sentimental choice, because he was a friend of my father).

RJ
RJ
9 years ago

How about the 1941 MVP tussle? Pete Reiser (on our ballot), Brooklyn’s hotshot outfielder, led the league in Runs, 2B, 3B, BA, SLG, OPS, OPS+, TB and HBP. But he finished second to his teammate, first baseman Dolph Camilli. Camilli didn’t bat for average as well as Reiser, but made up for it with walks and homers, meaning their OBP, SLG and OPS+ figures were virtually identical. Perhaps most important to the voters were Camilli’s league-leading totals in homers and RBI. Complicating matters was a third Brooklyn Dodger: Whit Wyatt. Wyatt led the league in wins, was second in ERA… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

1918 will be a tough election. I have Pee Wee Reese projected as the #8 player next round… and as the #3 newcomer! But we’ll worry about that NEXT week. For now, I’m very proud to cast a ballot for two 2B and a SP:

Jackie Robinson
Kevin Brown
Ryne Sandberg

Darien
9 years ago

Lofton, Sandberg, and Killebrew

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago

Repeating my vote at 12 which should not have been nested

Biggio
EMurray
JRobinson

David P
David P
9 years ago

Jackie, Robbie and Eddie (M not W).

KalineCountry Ron
9 years ago

Whitey
Campy
Jackie

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Jackie Robinson, Kevin Brown, Kenny Lofton

wx
wx
9 years ago

Jackie Robinson, Whitey Ford, Ryne Sandberg

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

Leaving Sandberg off for the second ballot in a row, simply because he seems to garnering solid support. Depending on how voting goes if he has a shot at 25% I may revisit this but for now:

Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, Minnie Minoso

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Robinson, Ford, Alomar

Bix
Bix
9 years ago

Robinson, Killebrew, Kiner

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
9 years ago

Biggio, Ford, Robinson.

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago

Jackie Robinson
Kevin Brown
Ryne Sandberg

John Sessler
John Sessler
9 years ago

Jackie Robinson
Roberto Alomar
Dennis Eckersley

Artie Z
Artie Z
9 years ago

Jackie Robinson, Eddie Murray, Kevin Brown

J.R.
J.R.
9 years ago

Whitey, Jackie, Harmon-y.

ATarwerdi96
ATarwerdi96
9 years ago

Dennis Eckersley, Hoyt Wilhelm, Jackie Robinson (although Ryne Sandberg does rate better by my methodology)

Jeff
Jeff
9 years ago

Biggio, Robinson, Sandberg

Owen
Owen
9 years ago

Lofton, Biggio, Robinson

--bill
--bill
9 years ago

Robinson, Sandberg, Brown

MikeD
MikeD
9 years ago

Biggio, Alomar and Robinson.

Let’s hear it for the second basemen. (Sorry, Ryne)

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Aha. ! I’ve just now understood the value of WAA (Wins Above Average) for our purposes. We’re looking for the ‘greats’. And yes, being steady above-average-but-not-great for 15-20 years is rare, and I would say ‘great’. But there’s very few Whitakers and Murrays. Who stood out from the average? New Stat, Raw data coming… PA divided by WAA, career: (I’ve included total PA in the list) 147.3 … (5804) Jackie Robinson 241.8 … (9235) Lofton 243.4 … (6256) Kiner 243.6 … (9282) Ryno 287.8 … (7712) Minoso 306.7 … (4815) Campanella 318.9 … (9692) McCovey 322.0 … (10400)Alomar 350.0 …… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Same stat, through the season in which each player passed 5,000 PA:

147.2 … Jackie
172.9 … Lofton
186.4 … McCovey
200.1 … Kiner
203.0 … Minoso
227.3 … Steady Eddie
266.9 … Biggio
273.3 … Ryno
284.2 … Killer
286.1 … Alomar
306.7 … Campanella (4815)

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo, using WAA as a rate stat stacks the deck in favor of shorter careers. Great players with short careers tend to have few PAs in their decline phase and/or their break-in years.

There is proof of this in your numbers. The top 6 on your list in PA per WAA averaged 7184 PAs while the bottom 5 averaged 11049.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I certainly agree. It is not a plug and play statistic. Some greater context has to be juggled. Which is why I included the career PA for player comparison. Helpful, though, to look at the classic short career guy (Kiner), versus Lofton and Ryno. Roughly the same number of PA per year to clock one WAA, but with 3000 more career PA. ______ And looking at the first 5000 PA (arbitrary, yes – but I wanted to compare to Jackie and Campy)… …Lofton remains strong vs the other holdovers – and we see that Sandberg’s best three successive years actually… Read more »

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
9 years ago

42, Lofton, Sandberg

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

This round’s tidbits. – Jackie Robinson is one of only 7 retired players to play their entire careers since 1946 and post a .300 BA and .400 OBP in a 5000 PA career. Who are the others? – Pete Reiser is the only live ball era player not in the Hall of Fame to lead his league in SLG in a season with fewer than 15 home runs. Who are the HOFers who have done this? – Johnny Wyrostek is the only player with 100 career games in CF and in RF, for both the Phillies and the Reds. –… Read more »

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

On the .300 BA and .400 OBP club, I will guess Chipper, Edgar, Bonds, Bagwell, Walker, Boggs, and Todd Helton.

5 out of 7 ain’t bad. Barry Lamar’s career BA was .298, Bags .297. I won’t reveal the last two names.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Frank Thomas is one of them. Manny Ramirez will join the club once he’s officially retired.

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

That’s it. Jackie is the seventh. There were only six others; I misread Doug’s post and was looking for seven more names. Manny will be the eighth.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Sherry Robertson is also the only ML player who is a nephew of Clark Griffith. Vic Raschi accumulated 7 RBI in one game on 8/4/53. That was a record for pitchers until broken by Tony Cloninger. Pete Reiser was carried off the field on a stretcher 11 times after crashing into an outfield fence while catching or trying to catch a fly ball. He was unconscious on five of those occasions and was once even given last rites. Those crashes ruined a very promising career. He also held the record for consecutive at bats, 887, without hitting into a double-play… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

I did some cross-checking using the PI and it looks like Reiser did not accumulate 887 consecutive AB without hitting into a double-play. My reference source is in error. The PI shows Reiser with 660 such AB in 179 games. Adding to that his AB in the games prior to and after the games in the streak, it becomes 663 AB. The record at the time of Reiser’s streak was held by Augie Galan with 696, with possibly 4 more AB as play-by-play is not available for the games just prior to and after his streak. Tony Womack currently holds… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

For the Pete Reiser question I found Ruth, Wheat, Speaker, Roush, Clarke, Musial, Lajoie, Hornsby, Cobb, Delahanty and Wagner.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Of that bunch, only Hornsby and Musial have had such a season since 1920.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Without looking, I’m gonna throw out guesses for some of those absurdly high average hitters: Boggs, Arky Vaughan, Carew, Brett. Don’t think Gwynn ever led in SLG, but doesn’t hurt to guess, so might as well throw him in, too.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Nada. I thought they were decent guesses, too…

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Aha! I got more. I know you said “with fewer than 15 home runs,” but Bobby Doerr did it with EXACTLY 15 in 1944. That should count for something. In 1945, Snuffy Stirnweiss led the AL in SLG with only 10 HR, so I guess Reiser isn’t the only non-HOF to do so.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Right you are, Dr. Doom.

I needed to scroll to the second page of search results (ordered by SLG) to find Stirnweiss. Never thought that .476 would be a leading SLG total, even during the war. It is, in fact, the only sub-.500 mark to lead in SLG since 1919.

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Red Ruffing won 20 or more four years running, I believe.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Indeed he did. I was surprised there are no others.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

For the Eddie Waitkus question I found Ferris Fain (48 HR), Earl Sheely (48 HR) and Lu Blue (44 HR). This time I made sure to restrict my search to the live-ball era.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Right you are, Richard.

Makes Waitkus’s HR total even more remarkable given that the next lowest total is almost twice as large.

RJ
RJ
9 years ago

Times finishing in the Top 5 for ERA in the Majors, live ball era:

Maddux (10)
Clemens; Grove (9)
Johnson; Seaver (7)
Hubbell; Martínez; Spahn (6)
Carlton; Koufax; Palmer; KEVIN BROWN (5)

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Jackie Robinson, Kevin Brown, Craig Biggio

koma
koma
9 years ago

Whitey Ford, Craig Biggio, Dennis Eckersley

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  koma

and there it is…

BryanM
BryanM
9 years ago

Doug @42 – Sherry Robertson “to die in South Dakota” .. suddenly conjures up images of Mark Twain (wolverhampton) and WC Fields (Philly) . apologies to all you Dakotans for thinking this way
by the way

Jackie
WHitey
K Lofton

aweb
aweb
9 years ago

Jackie Robinson, Kevin Brown, Harmon Killebrew

Steve
Steve
9 years ago

Whitey Ford; Roy Campanella; and of course Jackie Robinson

Phil
9 years ago

Robinson, Alomar, Killebrew.

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Killebrew, Robinson, Campanella

Kirk
Kirk
9 years ago

Robinson, Alomar & Killebrew

brp
brp
9 years ago

Hat tip to Pete Reiser for exemplifying “leaving it all on the field” and a spiritual predecessor to fellow Dodger Yasiel Puig’s daredevil style of outfield play. Just not enough career there to elect him.

Jackie Robinson, because duh
Kenny Lofton, because I’ve been convinced for a while
Kevin Brown, because I’m becoming convinced

brp
brp
9 years ago
Reply to  brp

Need to change my vote for Hoyt:
Robinson
Lofton
Wilhelm

Abbott
Abbott
9 years ago

Murray, Biggio, Robinson

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

Robinson, Campanella, and RA9role is a piece of garbage that should be thrown out forever: Dennis Eckersley.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

It exists to alter the starter-reliever balance. A guy going 6 innings apparently deserves more than just credit for 6 innings worth of value, he should also get a bonus for being called a starter. I think about the Colorado rotation where two guys were designated to pitch a game on 3 days rest. The second one’s value is inherently less? Relievers pitch fewer innings and have enough trouble accumulating value without it being shifted from reliever to starter. The whole single pitcher for a game concept is not intrinsic to baseball. This beast also rears it’s head in comparing… Read more »

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

“What does this have to do with Eck? His career followed the shift from starter to reliever ERA dominance in parallel with his positional shift. He is uniquely penalized by this, on both ends.” There are two distinct “shifts from starter to reliever ERA dominance” of note. The first was in 1960, when reliever and starter ERA first began to show a slight difference. The second shift was in 1974, when the current difference between starter and reliever ERA began to form. Is Eckersley’s role adjustment as a reliever any different from John Hiller’s in the mid-70s or Dan Quisenberry… Read more »

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

1974 indeed. I thought it was later, roughly about the time Eck shifted. I guess Eck’s entire career was in the modern era of role compensation. That means at least he’s being treated more fairly by WAR than I thought.

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

“I also think it helps explain these absurd WAR totals we’ve seen from starting pitching in recent years”

How are we defining recent? Since 2005 (inclusive) there’s been five 8+ WAR seasons by pitchers. There were 311 prior to that. There have been twenty-four 8+ WAR seasons by batters in the same time frame and 284 prior to that.

Wainwright is running a 1.83 ERA. There have only been eight qualified pitcher seasons with a better ERA since the year of the pitcher. I would venture that his WAR is not unreasonable.

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

mosc, one more thing that is confusing me.

How can you complain that Eck doesn’t get enough WAR as a starter but then say Adam Wainwright is getting too much?

Their role adjustments are the same! (and, FWIW, Wainwright’s role adjustment has given him all of 2 extra runs so far this year.)

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Mosc – The RA9 adjustment is necessary because it’s obviously much easier for a reliever than a starter to have a low RA9. There are at least 4 reasons why: 1) Most relievers throw for 2 or fewer innings so they can come in and throw hard the whole time. Starters can’t do that. 2) Relievers are much more likely to throw a partial inning. 3) Relievers are often brought in to face certain batters based on handedness. 4) Relievers don’t necessarily have to face the full lineup. A reliever may just face the bottom of the lineup, something a… Read more »

PP
PP
9 years ago

Robinson, Minoso, Sandberg

Paul E
Paul E
9 years ago

Killebrew, Jackie Robinson, Sandberg

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Brown 43.3
Robinson 39.4
Lofton 39.3
Sandberg 38.8
Alomar 37.1
Biggio 36.3
Eckersley 34.3
Murray 33.7
Killebrew 33.0
Minoso 30.6
Ford 29.3
Wilhelm 28.7
Kiner 27.0
Campanella 19.2

Robinson, Brown, Wilhelm

Nick Pain
Nick Pain
9 years ago

Murray, Robinson, K. Brown

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Ford, Kiner, Robinson

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Vote-tally note: there was a vote change @ 80 from Brown –> Wilhelm.

bells
bells
9 years ago

Here’s the vote according to my methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ – adding the wins above average players (rather than replacement) for… Read more »

robbs
robbs
9 years ago

Robinson Brown Lofton

BillH
BillH
9 years ago

Robinson
Murray
Alomar