Circle of Greats: 1920 Balloting

203 Replies

This post is for voting and discussion in the 63rd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1920. Rules and lists are after the jump.

This round’s group of 1920-born players joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

As usual, the new group of 1920-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Thursday, July 10, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, July 8.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1920 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1920 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The 14 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The new group of 1920 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ralph Kiner (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1920, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Stan Musial
Dave Philley
Jim Hegan
Bob Kennedy
Andy Seminick
Vern Stephens
Eddie Robinson
Sibby Sisti
Frankie Gustine
Ron Northey
Connie Ryan
George Metkovich
Wally Westlake

Pitchers (born in 1920, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Early Wynn
Steve Gromek
Bob Lemon
Gerry Staley
Walt Masterson
Johnny Schmitz
Dave Koslo
Bud Byerly
Larry Jansen

Larry Jansen is one of those rare pitchers who accumulated 20 or more career pitching WAR but pitched fewer than 10 years in the majors.

0 0 votes

Article Rating

203 Comments

Oldest

Newest Most Voted

Inline Feedbacks

View all comments

Mike

9 years ago

Stanley Frank Musial
Whitey Ford
Roy Campanella

Phil

9 years ago

Musial, Alomar, McCovey.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Phil

I actually have that button (your avatar) somewhere plus another that says “Nixon
Now”

I’m gonna have to look and see if they’re worth anything.

ajnrules

9 years ago

First time voter.

Stan Musial
Roy Campanella
Early Wynn

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to ajnrules

Great to see you jumping in — welcome!

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Having reached the 1920 birth year, 94 years ago, we are from here on going to be adding to the ballots (other than via redemption) very few men who are still alive. Wally Westlake and Eddie Robinson on this ballot are still with us. After this round, there’s Bobby Doerr and, via the 20 WAR exception, Monte Irvin.

Luis Gomez

9 years ago

Musial, Alomar, Miñoso.

9 years ago

Stan Musial, Kevin Brown, Kenny Lofton

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Well, I’d say this one’s in the bag already. But next round should be wide-open (unless birtelcom decides to split it up by birth month like Doug did that one time; then the winner should be obvious). Early congrats to Stan the Man, and I can’t wait for the dogfight next round!

Stan Musial
Kevin Brown
Ryne Sandberg

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Philley did play for the Phillies for a little over two seasons.

(But Daryl Boston never played for the Red Sox.)

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Nor Reggie Cleveland for the Indians.

robbs

9 years ago

Musial Murray Brown

Artie Z

9 years ago

Musial, Kevin Brown, Murray I hesitated on Musial – I mean, he was kind of a compiler, what with the .255/.325/.404 slash line only good for 101 OPS+ at age 42. Plus, he finally struck out more than he walked in that last year – clearly he was hanging on. And he couldn’t even hang on to compile 750 2Bs, 500 HRs, 2,000 runs or 2,000 RBI, falling between 25 and 51 shy of those goals – what’s the point if you can’t hit those numbers? Over his last 5 seasons (1959-1963) he only had a 118 OPS+ and barely… Read more »

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z

nothing on the line except possibly the batting average title

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Now that I look at it more closely based on your comment, it’s very strange that Musial pitched to Baumholtz – though even with a 4 for 4 game Baumholtz still would have “only” been at 0.332518, while Musial, even if he had gone 0 for 5, would have been at 0.332758. It’s a very strange setting that I don’t know the particular circumstances for – were the Cardinals attempting to give Baumholtz the title? The left-handed Baumholtz would otherwise have faced the left-handed Haddix, and so bringing in Musial would be less likely to help Musial win the batting… Read more »

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

There wasn’t any strategy about it. Just doing something for fun on the last day of the season. This is the account from Musial’s SABR bio. On September 29, 1952, he took the mound for the only time in his major-league career. He’d already sewn up the batting title and faced off against Frank Baumholtz of the Cubs, who was comfortably second in the batting race. Baumholtz, a lefty hitter, switched to the right side and reached base on an error. A gracious Musial maintained that it was as clean a hit as he ever saw. In another account I… Read more »

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Quizmaster Doug: is this the only time in baseball history (at least that we can search) that there was a pitcher-batter matchup between the player who finished 1st in the league in batting average and the player who finished 2nd?

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I’m going to say probably. I checked Ty Cobb who was the AL batting champion in 1918 and pitched to 17 batters in two games that season. But, neither appearances was against the As and second-place George Burns. But, Cobb did pitch to 3rd place George Sisler on Sep 1st who, following Cobb’s lead, pitched the last inning of a Browns win. Babe Ruth finished 3rd in batting in 1921 and pitched to Harry Heilmann (1st) and Ty Cobb (2nd) on Jun 13th. As a Yankee, Ruth pitched 5 games in 4 seasons over a 14 year period … and… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

@99
According to the Charlton Chronology Sisler did bat against Cobb and got a double.

On 10-3-20 it looks like batting champ Sisler may have pitched to Eddie Collins who finished 5th in BA that year. It is hard to say for sure due to an error in the box score with regard to BF by the Browns pitching staff.

Editor

John Autin

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Well, of course Ruth won those 5 games, Doug. He had this guy named Ruth supporting him with 8 for 19, 3 HRs, 7 RBI and 8 runs, 5 walks (no strikeouts), and 1.489 OPS.

BTW, I just noticed that Howard Ehmke, the Tigers pitcher Ruth beat on 6-21-1913, began his career in the Federal League, and went on to 166 wins in the real majors, making him by far the most successful pitcher who began with the Feds. I believe only he and Dave Davenport started there and logged 1,000+ career innings.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

33 times (since 1914) a player
STARTED a game as the #4 hitter
AND pitched in the game.

32 were Babe Ruth
The other was Bobby Veach, in this game:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET191809022.shtml

___________________

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

ooooooops. WRONG

Also:

Ty Cobb
Jack Rothrock
Ted Williams
Tim Wallach
Michael Cuddyer

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Looks like Ruth was the only one who started the game as a pitcher.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

In addition to Veach, the Tigers got 2 innings of work from Ty Cobb … for the second day in a row.

This was the last game of the abbreviated 1918 season and the Detroit’s third double-header in 4 days.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Some thoughts on Ralph Kiner…to me his career seems similar in a lot of ways to Mark McGwire’s. Obviously they resemble each other offensively – big power, lots of walks – and neither provided much defensive value. McGwire’s career wasn’t injury-shortened in the same abrupt way as Kiner’s, but he did lose significant time to injuries at various points in his career, and although McGwire played in 16 seasons to Kiner’s 10, he has only about 1400 more PA than Kiner, i.e. a little over 2 full seasons’ worth. In his career Kiner led the league in runs once, RBIs… Read more »

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

This year’s tidbits. – Stan Musial is the last player to twice slug .550 in a qualifying season with fewer than 20 home runs (he also had a third season slugging .549). Only two players have since done so even once in a full length season. Who are they? – Dave Philley batted .290 in 200+ PA each season aged 37-39, one of 14 players to do so, but one of only three who were not career .300 hitters. Who are the other two? – Jim Hegan was the fifth player to catch 100 games in 10 consecutive seasons (1947-56).… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Stan Musial is the last player to twice slug .550 in a qualifying season with fewer than 20 home runs (he also had a third season slugging .549). Only two players have since done so even once in a full length season. Who are they?

Rod Carew in 1977 & Tony Gwynn in 1994.

Got it with my 2nd & 3rd guesses. George Brett was my first.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Carew is one. But, not Gwynn.

Am looking for player who did this in a full length season.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Does Molitor in 1987 count as a full length season? He slugged .566 with 16 HRs but in only 118 games (he is young Paul Molitor, the fragile version). Though his season wasn’t “full length”, the MLB season was.

I went through about 15 people before getting him – everyone who hit .330 in a season with a little pop I could think of. Everyone else (Olerud, Boggs, Mauer, Henderson, Dykstra, Carty, Torre, Yount, etc.) all had seasons around or over .550, but it is usually only one season, and that season they would hit 20+ HRs.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Molitor was the guy – his 542 PA is comfortably clear of the qualifying level.

But, you make a good point that players playing everyday in 1981 or 1994 could have had similar PAs to the qualifying level in a normal season. For the record, Shane Mack, Larry Walker and Tony Gwynn all met the standard in 1994 but none had enough PA to qualify in a full length season (Gwynn had the most with 475).

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Bob Lemon: Not sure if he is the most recent, but Don Newcombe in 1955 posted a 163 OPS+ and a 128 ERA+. So if it’s not Newcombe, and you’re searching, it’s after 1955. That 125 ERA+ condition cuts out a few people (Drysdale and Spahn, at least).

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Don Newcombe in 1955 is correct.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Gerry Staley: Eckersley is an obvious answer, and Darren Oliver is the less obvious name I thought of who made the cut.

Smoltz didn’t pitch enough in relief, and Jose Mesa didn’t start enough games. Not sure on the other four.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

One of the others was a teammate of Eck’s.

Two others are relatively recent, the last closer to Staley’s time.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Rick Honeycutt is Eck’s teammate who did this.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

The last three with 150 starts through age 35 and 250 relief appearances after are Ron Reed, Tom Gordon and Jeff Fassero.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Gustine: Gil McDougald is the first player to come to mind. Michael Young (Rangers) is another I was able to come up with, though the only reason I got him was because I though of Toby Harrah (who also did it with the Rangers).

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

You got the recent ones.

The other two are much earlier, one with the Braves and one with the Cardinals.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I found Billy Urbanski of the Braves in the dead-ball era.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Maybe it was a different Billy Urbanski? 🙂 The one I found played in the liveliest part of the live ball era from 1931-37.

Anyway, Urbanski never played second base and barely had 100 games at 3B for his career, much less a single season. So, not him.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

@50

Does Bill Sweeney sound better?

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Sweeney is the one.

He did it in 3 consecutive seasons. Ironically, his defense got worse at each new position, with -0.2 dWAR at 3rd in 1909, -0.5 at SS in 1910, and -1.5 at 2nd in 1911. But, second is where he stayed for four more 100 games seasons, three with the Braves and the last with the Cubs.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Also found Jimmy Brown of the Cards, 1937,1939 and 1941.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Jimmy Brown is the Cardinal.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

For the Jim Hegan question I guessed Dickey, Cochrane, Hartnett and Schang. But my research turned up 5 others: Dickey, Cochrane, Steve O’Neill, Ernie Lombardi and Ray Schalk. Lombardi holds the record, 14 such seasons.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

It was 10 consecutive seasons I was after, not just 10 seasons overall. And it was games caught, not games played by catchers.

Dickey, Cochrane and Schalk are correct (there wasn’t a fourth – my mistake).

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Now I see that O’Neill and Lombardi had 10+ seasons of 100+ games but they did not actually catch in 100+ games.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Andy Seminick: I kept reading it as “Phillies-Pirates” because I saw Smoky Burgess’ name. Once I realized it was “Phillies-Reds”, Bo Diaz came to mind.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Bo Diaz is correct.

Burgess is indeed the only player to catch 250 games for the Phillies and Pirates.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

For the Dave Koslo question I came up with Ed Walsh in 1910.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Walsh is the one.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

For the Walt Masterson question are Pete Schneider and Waite Hoyt two of the other four?

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Pete Schneider is one. But, not Hoyt (his first start was at age 19).

Hoyt, though, has the longest CG win in a career first start by a teenager, going 12 innings in a 2-1 win over the Tigers. The only longer CG win at any age in a first career start was 13 innings by Don Fisher of the Giants who shutout the Braves 1-0 in 1945 and never pitched in the majors again (and pitched only one season in the minors, the next year with a 6.0 BB/9).

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Well, then how about Bob Feller?

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Feller is one. So is someone he pitched against when both were under 19 and both logged CGs.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

@66

Would that someone be Mack the– whoops, I mean Randy Gumpert? He and Feller faced each other on 9/13/36. Was it the youngest combined age for opposing starters or has this already been discussed here??

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Gumpert is the guy.

The last one is someone you won’t guess. Big league career lasted only two weeks and preceded his minor league career, which was almost as short.

Evidently a “been-there done-that” kind of guy who had better things to do with his life than throw a fastball.

Yes, we’ve discussed this topic before. Here’s a table with what I think are superlatives for the searchable era.

http://www.highheatstats.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/231-Youngest-and-Oldest-Pitchers.csv-2014-07-05.html

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

@85
It looks like the other pitcher is Reese Diggs. He pitched that game on 9-17-1934, a few days before his 19th birthday, as the Senators defeated the Indians 13-6. It was one of 677 games in which a pitcher won a complete game while giving up 6+ ER.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

For the Vern Stephens question I, like many others here, know that Art Shamsky is one of them. I found Willie Kirkland via the Charlton Chronology and I found Matt Adams via the PI Batting Events for 2013. It is possible to find the other two via the PI but it involves quite a bit of searching. Is there an easy way to do it?

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

This is the easy way to do it (all the games check out):

http://www.nationalpastime.com/site/index.php?query=Two+Extra+Inning+Home+Runs+in+a+Game+by+One+Player

to which you can add the Matt Adams game (thanks for the reminder) to make it 7 times in total.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN201309040.shtml

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Metkovich question: Joe Pepitone and Roger Repoz?

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Gary Bateman

Yes, those are two of them. They did it the same season, in 1966 when they started the year as Yankee teammates. That year, Mickey Mantle and his creaky knees completed only about a third of his games, leaving the rest of his games in the latter innings for a defensive replacement. That replacement was Repoz initially and, after Repoz was traded to the As, Pepitone who would shift from 1st base to CF, accounting for about 2/3 of Pepi’s games in center (he was the everyday CFer the last 3 weeks of the season). Back to Repoz, after joining… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Nick Swisher in 2008.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Correct.

The last one is Dave Martinez in 1997.

Jeff Harris

9 years ago

Musial, McCovey, Killebrew

Bix

9 years ago

Musial, McCovey, Kiner

David P

9 years ago

I’m shocked to find out that Vern Stephens never received a single vote for the Hall of Fame. According to his SABR bio, he was on the ballot in 1962, but received 0 votes. I’m not saying he belongs….just strange that he did so well in MVP voting during his career but was completely ignored for the HOF.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to David P

Most RBIs in A Season, in Games Played as a Shortstop:
1. Vern Stephens (1949) 159
2. Miguel Tejada (2004) 150
3. Vern Stephens (1950) 145
4. Ernie Banks (1959) 143
5. Alex Rodriguez (2002) 142
6. Vern Stephens (1948) 137

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

In 1951 Stephens set a record for highest percentage of PA with men on base, 400 overall PA minimum. He came to bat with men on base 61.2% of the time. His total RBI for the year was only 78, with 415 PA.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I should have added in the searchable era, 1941-2013.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

In 1949, the Red Sox played 155 games (losing the pennant on the last day, for the second year in a row). Ted Williams batted 3rd for the Sox in all 155 games and Stephens batted fourth in all 155 games.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to David P

David – it doesn’t surprise me that much. The HOF voting process back then was such a mess that it’s easy for me to see how someone like Stephens (who basically “George Fostered” out of the league) didn’t get a vote. 79 players received votes in 1962 (that’s certainly not everyone “on the ballot”) – as muddled as things are now, only 37 players appeared on the 2013 ballot and only 26 of those received votes. Only 10 players on the ballot for the first time in 1962 drew any support – two made it in (Feller and Jackie), Newhouser… Read more »

9 years ago

Reply to David P

With fairly good MVP voting shares though, except for that 1950 season when he had 144 RBIs, 125 runs scored, and was a little better than Dropo who came in 6th. Of course the Sox scored 1027 runs that year (long whistle).

Dr. Remulak

9 years ago

Biggio, Musial, Ford.

Steven

9 years ago

Stan Musial, Vern Stephens, Willie McCovey. Supporting an ex-St. Louis Brown star, instead of Whitey Ford this time around. I think Harlond Clift will be the next prominent Brownie (1912).

koma

9 years ago

Whitey Ford, Craig Biggio, Stan Musial

9 years ago

Stan Musial, Willie McCovey, Dennis Eckersley

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Musial, Kiner, Lemon Lemon isn’t really a COG guy, but he deserves a little support. He was a workhorse who could be relied on year after year. He evidently was a gutsy pitcher who could win despite only good (not great) strikeout totals and inferior walk rates (playing for a good team didn’t hurt either). Lemon’s ERA+ is second (barely) only to teammate Bob Feller among pitchers with 2000 IP and BB/9 of 3.95 or higher. What’s more remarkable is that Lemon learned his craft in the majors, after a grand total of two innings pitched in the minors. The… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

If you add in Lemon’s oWAR- and I think that it’s only fair to do so- he’s actually not a terrible HOF selection. He’s just outside the top 300 for career war and that’s before making any adjustments for pre-1893 pitchers which would move him up a dozen or more spots. There are at least a couple of dozen HOFer’s below him by that ranking.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I have no doubt I would have been a fan of Lemon’s. Trying to think about a comp to Lemon is hard. Do you look for a comp who has around 38 pitching WAR or do you look for a pitcher who has around 49 WAR, which is Lemon’s total when you include his hitting? I vote for the latter because Lemon’s hitting helped his team win games while he was on the mound and therefore cannot be separated from his overall package of skills (or something like that). So, how about Jimmy Key? Won a lot of games pitching… Read more »

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Hall of Stats has Lemon exactly equal to Jack Morris at 75 on its rating scale. And there are similarities – both were innings eaters with good but not great strikeout numbers, and mediocre or worse control.

Lemon would be much higher than Morris, except that he loses value because of his offense (good for a pitcher, but not good period) while Morris gets a zero because he never batted.

I kind of have a problem with that approach in that modern NL pitchers are obviously at a disadvantage to their AL brethren.

Unless I’ve misunderstood the HoS method?

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I don’t think that’s it, Doug. Adam lists Feller’s WAR and WAA as 49 and 26, which are numbers combined for hitting and pitching. It looks the similar numbers are coming from adjustedWAA. Morris has 10 WAA and Lemon 26, but when Adam does his adjustments and excludes seasons of negative WAA, Lemon and Morris both end up around 20 adjWAA. Maybe an adjustment downward for Lemon pitching in the weak AL in the fifties? And, since Morris has 7 seasons of negative WAA, totaling over 10 WAR, his positive WAA is almost 20! That’s too kind to Morris, IMHO.… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

edit: I meant Lemon, not Feller, in the second sentence of that last post.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

I think that’s right, bstar. You beat me to it! Good post; I think you nailed it. Pitchers don’t get dinged for not hitting like position players.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Thanks, Doc, but I think you probably know more about Adam’s process than I do. What is causing Lemon’s 26 WAA to get adjusted down to 17 adjWAA? I think my initial suspicion was wrong: differing strengths of league are embedded in replacement runs, not WAA, so the downward adjustment isn’t there. And Lemon only has two pitching seasons and three batting seasons of negative WAA, amounting to only about 2 of his 26 total. That’s not it, either. And if there was an adjustment to be made for Lemon’s 154-game seasons instead of 162, it would be upward, but… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

I just commented on Adam’s site now to see if we can get an explanation (he’s usually REALLY fast to reply to stuff, but maybe not with the holiday weekend – we’ll see), but I have a guess: I’m wondering if, somehow, only PITCHING WAA was included in the HOS formula. Lemon’s career pitching WAA, ignoring negative seasons, is 16.7, which is close to the adjusted 17. I’m THINKING that’s the reason, in which case it’d just be a glitch to get fixed, or perhaps Adam doesn’t feel it’s appropriate to include pitchers-as-hitters, for some reason. Hoping to get a… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

bstar: I got an official reason.

In the HOS, Adam doesn’t count pitchers’ hitting towards WAA. This is because he doesn’t count WAA in situations where WAR and WAA are ~=. For example, pitchers’ hitting, in which Replacement=Average. So, since Lemon has 11.3 WAA hitting, AND 11.3 WAR hitting, it ONLY gets counted toward the adjWAR component.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Aha! Thanks, Doom! Doug’s suspicion was right, then, at least to some extent.

Thinking a tad about this, I think Adam made the right call.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Thanks bstar and Dr. Doom for clarifying this (at least, for you 🙂 ) What I was remarking on was that the HoS page for each player shows values (are they runs above average?) for each of Batting, Baserunning, Turning DPs, Fielding, Position (?) and Pitching. Those numbers are (-34,0,4,0,142,149) for Lemon and (0,0,0,0,3,79) for Morris. So, I noted the negative Batting number for Lemon and zero for Morris. Just looking at those two sets of numbers (whatever they are), seems hard to understand how they end up at the same rating. Incidentally, the other notable pitcher on this ballot… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Doug, I don’t buy the Wynn was a compiler argument. One of the components in the HOS is WAA+. Wynn’s is 11 (adj)WAA higher. Then THAT gets multiplied by 1.8. That makes for a 20-point difference in WAA in Wynn’s favor. Between that and the WAR difference, I would say it makes sense, by Adam’s method.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

I don’t see that 11 WAAadj difference. On their B-R pages, Lemon is 15.1 WAA with a -1.2 adjustment for 13.9 WAAadj. For Wynn, it’s 16.6 and -2.6 for 14.0 WAAadj. Seems like a wash. But, I’m sure Adam has his math right. Still, I look at Lemon vs Wynn and the difference is all about value outside of their peak. Below is their WAR/WAA for 1947-56 and for the rest of their careers. Lemon – 36.8/16.4, 0.7/-1.3 Wynn – 35.4/16.6, 16.2/0.0 I look at that and the difference is the outside peak WAR for Wynn which was purchased with… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Doug, I see what you’re saying! Hall of Stats is listing Wynn’s pre-adjustment, straight-from-BRef career WAA as 26.3. The only way you can get this number is if you add his pitching WAA (16.6) to his hitting WAA (9.7). So we’d have to find out why Wynn is getting hitting WAA credit but Bob Lemon isn’t. This could actually be an error, but I’d be pretty surprised with Adam’s tech skills. Um….Doom? ________ P.S. Doug, the WAAadj you quoted in your first paragraph @127 doesn’t need to be subtracted from career WAA. WAAadj is a minor re-centering adjustment to get… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Sorry if that was confusing.

What I meant to say is that Wynn’s adjWAA on Adam’s site seems to include his hitting WAA, while Lemon’s doesn’t.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Early Wynn is NOT getting his batting added in. Remember, WAA, for the purposes of the HOS, DOES NOT include negative seasons. Go to Wynn’s page and add it up yourself. You’ll see that the reason b-ref shows ‘only’ 16 WAA and HOS sows 26 is because Wynn was REALLY below average for enough years that his WAA got dragged down by 10! That’s an insanely large amount, but HOS is very consistent in how it’s handling these two pitchers.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

A few more comments, just to clarify all of the things that have been said above: First off, Doug, I just want to clarify that Lemon doesn’t get “dinged” for not hitting like a position player; he gets 0, just like Morris (who never batted). Second of all, bstar, I’m pretty sure you’re right that the -1.2 that Lemon’s getting has to do with the weaker AL of the ’50s. That said, his WAA+ is 27.2, minus 1.2 = 26 adjWAA. I hope that makes sense Third of all Doug, I think some of this confusion comes from an initial… Read more »

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Thanks for the comments bstar and Dr. Doom, As to why I chose 1947-56 as the comparison period, it was only because those were Lemon’s prime years (which in his case were pretty much his whole career). Since these two are the same age and played in the same league (and were teammates for most of the period), looking at that period for both seemed like an ideal apples-to-apples comparison. Whether or not those years were Wynn’s peak, the fact remains that he and Lemon had almost identical pitching value during those years, and outside those years Wynn had pitching… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Dr. Doom: D’OH! I get it now, Wynn was like Jack Morris, lots of negative WAA seasons throughout his career. That’s what I get for commenting in the middle of the night. Thanks for the reply.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Ironically, those negative WAA seasons seem to have been Wynn’s ticket to the HoS. Looking again at Lemon and Wynn. WAR(raw/adjusted) Lemon: 49.0/50.2 Wynn: 61.6/62.5 WAA (raw/adjusted) Lemon: 26.5/17.2 Wynn: 26.5/28.1 So, despite Lemon having identical raw WAA to Wynn in 38% fewer IP, he loses a third of his total to “adjustments” while Wynn’s total goes up. The major adjustment seems to be ignoring negative WAA seasons which adds 8.5 WAA to Wynn’s total but only 1.9 to Lemon’s. The remaining “adjustments” are a whopping 11.2 reduction for Lemon but only 6.8 for Wynn. I’m not lobbying for Lemon… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug – I’m glad you mentioned Lemon. I was going to write something about him but you beat me too it! I think he get unfairly criticized as poor HOF choice. Not that he’s a great choice but he’s not that bad as you and others have noted. Most of his WAR came during a 9 year peak. Also, what I find amazing is that three years after becoming a pitcher, he lead the AL in innings pitched, something he did for 4 of the next 6 years. He was also the CFer for Bob Feller’s opening day no-hitter. Feller… Read more »

Insert Name Here

9 years ago

Here’s my ballot:

1. Stan Musial (7.7 WAR/162 during 1942-58)
2. Kenny Lofton (6.8 WAR/162 during 1992-99)
3. Ryne Sandberg (6.2 WAR/162 during 1984-92)

Ranking of other candidates:
4. Craig Biggio (5.8 WAR/162 during 1991-99)
5. Kevin Brown (5.7 WAR/season during 1992-2000)
6. Willie McCovey (6.7 WAR/162 during 1963-70)
7. Ralph Kiner (7.1 WAR/162 during 1947-52)
8. Harmon Killebrew (5.3 WAR/162 during 1959-70)
9. Minnie Miñoso (5.7 WAR/162 during 1951-59)
10. Eddie Murray (5.7 WAR/162 during 1978-86)
11. Roy Campanella (6.1 WAR/162 during 1949-55)
12. Roberto Alomar (6.0 WAR/162 during 1996-2001)
13. Dennis Eckersley (5.6 WAR/season during 1975-79)

Bill Johnson

9 years ago

Killebrew, Wilhelm, and Musial

JEV

9 years ago

Musial, McCovey, Killebrew

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Musial, Ford, McCovey

Chris C

9 years ago

Musial, Biggio, Sandberg

Jeff

9 years ago

Musial, Sandberg, Biggio

Chris C

9 years ago

Reply to Jeff

Nice choices. Just fyi, this isn’t me voting under an alias. 🙂

Andy

9 years ago

Musial, Kevin Brown, Eckersley

KalineCountry Ron

9 years ago

Stan Musial
Campy
Whitey

Mike HBC

9 years ago

Eckersley, Kiner, and Sibby Sisti.

Just kidding on that last one. Stan Friggin’ Musial.

Phil

9 years ago

Reply to Mike HBC

Sibby’s line on the father-kids game in Ball Four is one of my favourite in the book: ““Forty runs, for crissakes, and nobody gets knocked down.” Otherwise, I think he was just a general nuisance in Bouton’s eyes, hanging around for his pension.

Francisco

9 years ago

Stan Musial, Ralph Kiner, Kevin Brown

ATarwerdi96

9 years ago

Stan Musial, Dennis Eckersley, Hoyt Wilhelm

PaulE

9 years ago

Musial McCovey Sandberg

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Musial, Killebrew, Lemon

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Pitching Wins, age 30-39:

202… Spahn
199… Grove
195… Plank
191… Gaylord
190… McGinity
188… EARLY WYNN
180… Carlton
171… Hubbell
170… Mordecai

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

I’m curious to see if this group thinks Wynn is a COG?

9 years ago

Reply to PP

I guess my question being answered–two votes so far.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to PP

PP – Looking at past voting patterns of this group I don’t think that Wynn will fare well. While there are things I don’t like about similarity scores, it is a place to start when making comparisons (basically because it’s on the player page). Of Wynn’s 10 best career comps, we’ve had 7 pitchers come through the voting process so far: Glavine, Tommy John, Robin Roberts, Phil Niekro, Kaat, Blyleven, and Jenkins. Glavine, Roberts, Niekro, Blyleven, and Jenkins are in; John and Kaat are not (and I don’t think they are likely to be voted in). While Wynn won 300… Read more »

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

So you’re saying Early Wynn had a lot of Late Wins?

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Looking at Steve Gromek…
discovered that he was on the ugly end of the worst inning in modern history:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS195306180.shtml

(Boston won 17-1 the day before)

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

The thing I like best about that inning is that after scoring 17 runs the Red Sox left the bases loaded.

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

How about George Kell making two of the outs in the inning (leaving five men on in the process) and, despite hitting a double, not getting an RBI when eight of teammates did.

I was wondering the other day whether any player had made all three outs in an inning, but dismissed it as ridiculous. But then you see innings like this… (a quick google search suggests it hasn’t happened… yet.)

David Horwich

9 years ago

Alomar, Campanella, Murray

OK, I’ll be the first to leave Musial off my ballot.

Mike G.

9 years ago

Musial, Brown, Eckersley

Hartvig

9 years ago

Sandberg, Minoso, Musial

RonG

9 years ago

Musial, Wynn, Campanella

bstar

9 years ago

Musial, Lofton, Biggio

oneblankspace

9 years ago

voting for:

Biggio and his elbow guard
Wilhelm and his knuckleball
that man Stan and his harmonica

(subject to change by Thursday night)

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Changes allowed through Tuesday night, balloting ends Thursday night.

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I read that wrong just before I typed it.

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

One vote updated at #176

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Career relief pitchers (at least 80% of games), WAR leaders: 56.6 … Mariano 50.1 … Wilhelm 41.8 … Gossage 31.2 … Hiller 29.4 … Lee Smith 28.7 … Lindy McDaniel 28.0 … Hoffman 27.7 … Wagner _______________________ WAR Leaders, age 40+ 20.4 … Wilhelm 10.3 … Satchel Paige 8.8 …. Dutch Leonard 8.5 …. Mariano 6.9 …. Doug Jones 5.0 …. Mike Ryba 4.8 …. Don McMahon 4.7 …. Joe Heving Nobody in the 20th century touches what Wilhelm accomplished at his “position.” Passed balls? Knuckleballer anxieties? Let’s not overthink it. The simple truth is that Wilhelm did not give… Read more »

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

As I said in 1922 Part 2, Wilhelm retired with the career lead in saves

http://www.highheatstats.com/2014/06/circle-of-greats-1922-part-2-balloting/#comment-82284

opal611

9 years ago

For the 1920 election, I’m voting for:
-Stan Musial
-Craig Biggio
-Roberto Alomar

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Sandberg
-Murray
-Eckersley
-Lofton
-McCovey
-Killebrew
-Ford
-Wilhelm
-Brown

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Vote:

Eckersley
Lofton
Wilhelm

(I do plan to vote for the best guy in 1895)

bells

9 years ago

Here’s the vote according to my methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ – adding the wins above average players (rather than replacement) for… Read more »

Josh

9 years ago

Stan Musial, Whitey Ford, Ralph Kiner

9 years ago

Not that it matters these past few rounds, but I’m finding it hard to pick between the non-McCovey non-pitchers (the 60s WAR guys I think of them as): Murray, Killebrew. Sandberg, Alomar, Biggio, Lofton. Seems 60-something might be the borderline here?

Also, even as I understand more of the advanced stats I’m still in awe of black ink, especially those careers like Musial, and Spahn, that have a ton of it.

Musial, McCovey, Minoso

latefortheparty

9 years ago

Stan Musial
Kevin Brown
Ryne Sandberg

David P

9 years ago

Musial, Murray, Alomar

Owen

9 years ago

Musial
Lofton
Killebrew