Circle of Greats: 1916 Part 1 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 68th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round begins to add to the ballot those players born in 1916. Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1916 will be brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — the top half by alphabetical order this round and the bottom half next round. This round’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

The new group of 1916-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Saturday, August 23, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Thursday, August 21.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1916 Part 1 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1916 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1916 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played. In total there were 26 players born in 1916 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement. Thirteen of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Jim Bagby to Ken Keltner). The thirteen players further down in the alphabet will be added next round.

Holdovers:

Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Pee Wee Reese (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Lou Boudreau ( (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1916, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Phil Cavarretta
Eddie Joost
Bob Elliott
Johnny Hopp
Floyd Baker
Charlie Keller
Ken Keltner
Al Evans
Elbie Fletcher
Sam Chapman

Pitchers (born in 1916, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Murry Dickson
Jim Bagby
Hank Borowy

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Hartvig

9 years ago

Sandberg, Reese, Campanella

I’ll be keeping an eye on Minoso as well.

Andy

9 years ago

Biggio
Killebrew
Alomar

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

After some re-thinking (I think it was comment 187 on the last round), I’m making a change to my ballot, by dropping Lou Boudreau. After some careful consideration, I think his wartime stats are just a little too inflated. I have NO PROBLEM with counting what he did. We should act as if those things DIDN’T happen; instead, we should be realistic about the level of competition he faced. In my opinion, Boudreau benefits greatly from having played against the same competition Hal Newhouser was beating up on. Newhouser fell off the ballot. Boudreau was a better player, but TOO… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Also want to make a shout-out to my fellow Milwaukean, Ken Keltner. He’s now most famous in these parts because of Bill James’s famous “Keltner Test.” But he WAS a good player. Bud Selig supported his Hall of Fame case, which proves that a) Bud Selig has a pro-Milwaukee bias (which I consider a positive trait, and everyone knows already), and b) that it’s a good thing that Bud Selig doesn’t get to choose who goes into the Hall of Fame.

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Milwaukee’s best player Aloys Szymanski doesn’t come up for a vote until 1902. Will he be the first elected to the COG?

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Dr. Doom: regarding Boudreau. If you have the time, will you consider reading this? It offers a different view about wartime years in baseball:

http://research.sabr.org/journals/wartime-baseball-not-that-bad

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

I enjoyed (and agreed with) the article. Thanks for sharing, bstar. It’s a good read for anyone who’s interested. The quote that stuck out at me, though, was the final sentence of the piece: “We maintain that a good brand of baseball was played in the major leagues during World War II without pretending to imply that it was the same without PEE WEE, THE YANKEE CLIPPER, RAPID ROBERT and THE KID.” It WAS good baseball. I would venture to say that it was almost certainly the best baseball being played in those years (although I don’t actually know what… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Another Boudreau issue is how defensive and offensive WAR accumulate. For players with significantly positive RFIELD, the batting requirements are quite light to accumulate WAA. This can be said in reverse too but the point is that a player adding value in multiple areas shoots up the WAA chart often without an exceptional bat. This is not shocking information but I think it’s important in Boudreau’s case when you look at the amount of RBAT he accumulated during the war and how directly that relates to his WAA.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Boudreau (with 10% off his wartime years): 40 WAA, 61 WAR.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Well, I wasn’t done, sorry. Boudreau has 40 WAA and 61 WAR. Let’s see what we would estimate Boudreau’s value to be if he hadn’t played during the war. I think a reasonable way to do this would be look at his three prior years to the war, his three years after the war, and then take the average of those for a decent estimate of what a player would have produced in the three wartime years. Boudreau 1940-42: 9 WAA, 15 WAR Boudreau 1946-48: 16.5 WAA, 22 WAR Taking the average of those two groups of years, we get… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

This study suggests that something like a 10% discount applied to the win value of guys who played during WWII might be the appropriate adjustment:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1817

J.R.

9 years ago

Ford, Biggio, Killebrew

JEV

9 years ago

Killebrew, Campanella, Murray

donburgh

9 years ago

Biggio, Lofton, Murray

Andy

9 years ago

Lou Boudreau, Kevin Brown, Craig Biggio

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Andy

B is for Ballot.

KalineCountry Ron

9 years ago

Whitey
Campy
Killebrew

Doug

9 years ago

This year’s tidbits. – Phil Cavarretta leads all players in career Games and PA before the age 20 season. Who are the only other players with 200 games in their teenage seasons? – Eddie Joost was the first player with 3 seasons batting under .250 while walking 100 times. He was also the only player with a season (1947) of 100 walks, 100 strikeouts and fewer than 15 home runs, until Tony Phillips matched that feat in 1993. – Bob Elliott played 600 games at third base for both the Pirates and Braves. Who are the only other pre-expansion players… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Elbie Fletcher – Mike Schmidt and Eddie Yost. Couldn’t find others, but I’m working without a PI subscription here, so that means manual checking and a high probability of missing one.

Jim Bagby – Jim Perry in 1960.

I gave one guess at Murry Dickson: Phil Niekro. It was wrong – he didn’t lose 19 three times, but he DID lose 18 four times (and in a row at that, to lead the league each time). I feel like that’s partial credit. 🙂

I might try some of the others later, but that’s a start.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Bonds did it in his last two seasons, though he needed ghost PAs to win the OBP title (he didn’t quite qualify but still won assuming 0 times reaching base for all PAs needed to get to 502).

Bonds also almost did it twice early in his career, in ’91 (.292 BA, .410 OBP) and ’95 (.294, .431).

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Correct, bstar.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Partial credit is definitely in order on the Murry Dickson question, Dr. Doom. Another knucker, Wilbur Wood, lost at least 19 games in 1973, 1974, and 1975 (after losing 17 in 1972).

Pedro Ramos matched Phil Niekro in losing 18 games in four consecutive seasons (1958-61). Unlike Niekro or Wood, though, his losses surpassed his win total in each of those years.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Good manual checking, Dr. Doom. Those are the only two to do so in a qualifying season (Topsy Hartsel and Gavvy Cravath each did it twice before the live ball era).

Possibly there are others like the case of Barry Bonds who led in OBP despite falling short of qualifying PAs.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug, Bonds still won the OBP title both those years because of the ghost PAs rule. He’s got the black ink, not second-place Pujols in ’06 or Helton in ’07.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Oops, sorry, missed your confirmation @20.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

What the hey. I’ll get the ball rolling on the Cavaretta question, as well. I know Mel Ott and Robin Yount to be two of the players, but I’m not sure if that’s all. I’ll let someone else finish the work on that one.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

There’s one more.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Ed Kranepool is the other.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Hank Borowy question: I thought Big Unit did it in ’98, but he only won 9 games for Seattle before going 10-1 in Houston.

It’s Bartolo Colon, with matching 10-4 slates for CLE and MON in 2002.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Oh, I’ve got a doozy of a question:

Who are the only two pitchers since 1901 to win 20 more games after switching teams mid-season?

You’re welcome to this one, Doug.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Red Barrett is the only one to do this in the live ball era. Went 2-3 for the Braves and 21-9 for the Cardinals in 1945.

Going back to 1901, Bob Wicker was 0-0 in one appearance for the 1903 Cardinals, then went 20-9 for the Cubs. Patsy Flaherty almost matched him the next season with 1-2 for the White Sox followed by 19-9 for the Pirates.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

You got it, Doug.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Other tidbits: Bob Elliott led the majors with 903 RBI in the decade of the 1940s. I believe that Murry Dickson is the oldest pitcher to hit a walk-off HR. He did so on 5-26-58 giving the A’s a 5-4 win over the Orioles. For Charlie Keller’s first five seasons 1939-1943: 1st in BB 3rd in OBP 5th in SLG 5th in OPS 4th in OPS+ 3rd in R 2nd in 3B 3rd in HR 5th in RBI Johnny Hopp was sold by the Pirates to the Yankees on Sept. 5,1950 while he was currently second in the NL in… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Those RBIs by Bob Elliott weren’t necessarily a product of ample opportunities alone.

Elliott career tOPS+

ducks on the pond: 112
DISP: 109 (ducks in scoring position?)

Elliott was a true-talent Circle of Very Good player. And a team leader to boot.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

The career leader in WAR for Cleveland Indians third basemen is Bill Bradley (1901-10).

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Bob Elliott question:

So far I have found two such players, Larry Gardner (Red Sox and Indians) and Home Run Baker (A’s and Yankees).

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

If we can include the 1900 season, Harry Steinfeldt also has 600 games for two franchises (Cincinatti and Chicago).

Jimmy Dykes and Pinky Higgins were both within 25 games of doing so.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Sam Chapman question:

George Hendrick and Vada Pinson

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Good find. I overlooked Pinson – and apparently I wasn’t breaking any news when I reported finding Hendrick. ;o)

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

For the Sam Chapman question, one of the players is George Hendrick.

David W

9 years ago

Murray, Campanella, and Alomar.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Killebrew (for the early lead), Alomar, and Murray.

Jeff

9 years ago

Biggio, Ford, Sandberg

Francisco

9 years ago

Kevin Brown, Craig Biggio, Pee Wee Reese

Chris C

9 years ago

Craig Biggio, Ryne Sandberg, Dennis Eckersley

jajacob

9 years ago

Lofton, Brown ,Alomar

Steven

9 years ago

Whitey Ford, Harmon Killebrew, Ryne Sandberg.

Jeff Hill

9 years ago

Lofton, Brown, Biggio

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

I posted this last week.
One way of looking at the Boudreau question.
How to value his shorter career.

This is Plate Appearances, divided by Wins Above Average.
Calculated through the season in which each player passed 7300 PA
(Boudreau’s total)

158.8 … Keller (4604)
166.4 … Boudreau
207.7 … Lofton
209.9 … Sandberg
218.1 … Biggio
245.5 … Pee Wee
246.7 … Minoso
250.5 … Eddie Murray
255.3 … Killer
262.4 … Alomar
334.5 … Bob Elliot
435.3 … Keltner (6312)
497.9 … Fletcher (5826)
665.6 … Joost (6789)
988.0 … Cavaretta

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

For Pitchers.
IP divided by WAA:

80.3 …. (3256) Kevin Brown
107.4 … (3286) Dennis Eckersley
109.3 … (3170) Whitey Ford
112.2 … (3827) Bob Feller
218.0 … (3052) Murray Dickson

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Vote:

Lou Boudreau
Kevin Brown
Kenny Lofton

David Horwich

9 years ago

This should be a very interesting round, especially compared to the last few, which haven’t had much suspense. I won’t be able to watch it unfold, as I’ll be on vacation and offline the next week, but at least I have time to get my vote in:

Alomar, Campanella, Murray

Darien

9 years ago

Lofton, Sandberg, and Killebrew. Also a shout-out to Eddie Joost, the player so awesome they couldn’t decide whether to name an energy drink or a malt beverage after him.

koma

9 years ago

Whitey Ford, Craig Biggio, Dennis Eckersley

RonG

9 years ago

Ford, Campanella, Minoso

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Okay… I double-checked all the votes so far (through RonG at 47) and, through 21 ballots cast, we have a leader. And it’s… Craig Biggio! Whoa… the all-time COG vote-getting champ is, for once, leading his round (with 9 votes). Harmon Killebrew is a surprising second with 7. Sandberg, Ford, Campanella, and Brown have 6 each; Alomar, Lofton, and Murray are at 5 apiece; Pee Wee Reese is (surprisingly, in my estimation) at 3, Eckersley and Boudreau are at 2, and Minnie Minoso got his first (and thus far only) vote courtesy of RonG.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

New standings: 12 – Biggio 10 – Sandberg & Ford 9 – Brown 8 – Killebrew, Campanella, Alomar, Lofton, Murray 7 – Reese 5 – Boudreau 3 – Eckersley, Minoso I guess I spoke too soon in regards to Killebrew’s and Reese’s support. As soon as I mentioned Reese’s surprisingly low support through the first 21 ballots, he immediately picked up 4 votes. Meanwhile, Killebrew has stalled over the last 11 ballots cast. This round is going to be fascinating. If Biggio manages to hold on for the win, the next round would be our first round sans Biggio since… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

A couple of things I noticed about Biggio: In his first ballot he got a very respectable 32 votes and was on over 40% of the total. The following year Barry Larkin came on the ballot and for the next 5 ballots Biggio’s vote totals were identical to or slightly more than Larkin’s. Then for the next 5 years Larkin pulled ahead for a couple before Biggio rebounded for a single ballot and then fell back again for the next 2, finally being outvoted 32 to 6 in the round that Larkin was elected. By that point Sandberg and Whitaker… Read more »

Bix

9 years ago

Killebrew, Campanella, Eckersley

aweb

9 years ago

Brown, Biggio, Reese

T-Bone

9 years ago

Sandberg, Reese, Campy.

Doug

9 years ago

Lofton, Ford, Reese

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

(at least 45% of games at SS) Wins Above Average Leaders, Shortstops: 82.2 … Honus 58.7 … Alex Rodriguez 53.1 … Ripken 47.3 … Arky Vaughan 42.2 … Boudreau 42.2 … Larkin 41.6 … Ozzie Smith 41.5 … Appling 40.2 … Trammell 37.0 … Yount 35.9 … Cronin 31.7 … Pee Wee 31.4 … Jeter _____________________ Okay, same guys… Plate Appearances divided by Wins Above Average. Calculated through the season in which they passed 7300 PA (Boudreau’s total) 105.2 … Honus 132.4 … Alex Rodriguez 160.0 … Arky 161.6 … Ripken 166.4 … Boudreau 171.6 … Larkin 200.9 … Trammell… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo: Boudreau, with 10% off his wartime years*, is around 40 WAA/61 WAR. I found two other careers with a similar ratio:

39.4 WAA/61.5 WAR
40.3 WAA/62.3 WAR

Those two players are Jackie Robinson and Shoeless Joe. To be fair, though, I don’t want to put Lou in that class because each of these two did it in fewer than 6000 PAs. But, still…

*http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1817

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

oops, Boudreau actually had 7024 PA.

PaulE

9 years ago

Alomar Reese Sandberg

robbs

9 years ago

Lofton Sandberg Boudreau

BillH

9 years ago

Ford, Murray, Alomar

This round will be a real dog fight- polar opposite of the last 2 rounds.

latefortheparty

9 years ago

Kevin Brown
Ryne Sandberg
Lou Boudreau

dr. remulak

9 years ago

Biggio, Ford, Murray.

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Biggio, who played in a World Series on the south side of Chicago
Minoso, who was in Cleveland when the White Sox went to the Series in 1959
Murray, who won the ALCS in Chicago to advance to the Series

9 years ago

Lofton, Brown, Boudreau.

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Ford, Alomar, Minoso

bells

9 years ago

ere’s the vote according to my methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ – adding the wins above average players (rather than replacement) for… Read more »

MikeD

9 years ago

Ford, Alomar and Campanella.

Mike G.

9 years ago

Brown, Eckersley, Lofton

Hub Kid

9 years ago

Sandberg, Boudreau, Minoso

Steve

9 years ago

Whitey Ford; Roy Campanella ; Harmon Killebrew

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

With presumably more than half the votes in, this is a completely wide open ballot. Three-way tie at the top. One candidate is one vote back, another is two votes back, three more candidates three votes back and another two are just four votes back. That’s ten guys who are well within reach at the moment — and that’s not even including the guy on this ballot who got the most votes last round!

9 years ago

Lofton ford biggio

brp

9 years ago

There’s not a clear-cut “Best” player to me in this ballot, so I’m voting for 3 bubble boys whom I wouldn’t mind being inducted.

Murray
Killebrew
Boudreau

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

I lost a long screed when my internet connection timed out. In short…

Charlie Keller was probably better than Hall of Famers named Kell, Kelly (x2), and Kelley. I like him for the HoF, but not the CoG. Lofton and Campanella are close enough that I could be convinced to vote for them this round, but I’m going with…

Brown, Boudreau, Reese

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

Bryan, you and I agree on most of these votes. I understand the Boudreau support he’s a very peak oriented short career case of a complete player. I think WAA gets a particular boost from his inflated wartime batting stats and his total value is hardly more than borderline but I get it. What do you make of Campanella? Think you’d ever vote for him? Sorry if that’s in your long post that got lost. I know how much that sucks. Consider this a prod for some of that information though because there are those here like me that appreciate… Read more »

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

I may vote for Campanella someday. Before this exercise, I considered Campanella somewhere between the third and fifth-best Major League catcher, behind Bench and Berra and grouped with Rodriguez and Piazza. I always thought of him as the ultimate high-peak, short-career guy. WAA certainly disagrees. In his three MVP years, he was worth 3.3 to 4.9 WAA (5.2 to 7.1 WAR). He didn’t have another year worth more than 2.4 WAA (4.4 WAR). Gary Carter had eight 3-WAA seasons, including three in a row over 5. Ted Simmons had four 3-WAA seasons. Bill Freehan had three. Three of Joe Torre’s… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Gah

Reese, Ford, Campanella

The thought of Biggio winning is appealing, I think he’s above the bar. If my not voting for him makes him loose out to lofton or boudreau I will be upset but I think Reese or Ford has a real shot to win too so I’ll stick with this vote.

I am never voting for Kevin Brown, just not going to do it.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

The egg creams and Spaldeens ballot: 1950s NYC.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

My personal bias for baseball in that time and place is clearly not coloring anything. Sigh.

Low T

9 years ago

Lofton, Reese, Sandberg.

Combined 53 defensive wins above replacement up the middle, and all three in the top 20 all-time for dWAR at their positions (Lofton and Reese are top 10).

And I agree with mosc. I don’t care what the numbers say, I will never log a vote for Kevin Brown.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Ford, Murray, Killebrew