Circle of Greats: 1916 Part 2 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 69th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round completes the addition to the ballot those players born in 1916. Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1916 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — the top half by alphabetical order last round and the bottom half this round. This round’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

The new group of 1916-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, September 2, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, August 31.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1916 Part 2 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1916 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The twelve current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1916 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played. In total there were 26 players born in 1916 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement. Thirteen of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Eddie Lake to Harry “the Hat” Walker). The thirteen players higher up in alphabetical order were added in the previous round.

Holdovers:
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Pee Wee Reese (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Lou Boudreau ( (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1916, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Enos Slaughter
Phil Masi
Eddie Miller
Hank Majeski
Mickey Owen
Pete Suder
Johnny Lindell
Eddie Lake
Buddy Lewis
Danny Litwhiler
Harry Walker

Pitchers (born in 1916, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Bob Muncrief
Preacher Roe

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Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Woo-hoo! Typing my comment in the results post means I’m here to vote. New ballot for me with Sandberg finally elected. Here’s what I’ve got:

Pee Wee Reese
Kevin Brown
Kenny Lofton (welcome back to my ballot!)

Can’t wait for (what I anticipate to be) another hotly-contested round!

JEV

9 years ago

Killebrew, Campanella, Murray.

bells

9 years ago

Here’s the vote according to my statistical methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ – adding the wins above average players (rather than replacement)… Read more »

Michael Sullivan

9 years ago

Reply to bells

You’re right that Slaughter is worth consideration when you take into account the war years. Looking straight at WAR/WAA, if you take the 3 years before and 4 years after WWI, he averaged 4.6 WAR and 2 WAA per year. (using 4 years after picks up a 6.2 WAR year and helps him over 3 and 3 — I tried to get the best possible surround that wasn’t pure cherry picking). So let’s give him that for three years. That gets him 68.2 WAR, certainly a number that would merit CoG consideration, but only 28.2 WAA Eliminating negative WAA, he… Read more »

latefortheparty

9 years ago

Kevin Brown
Lou Boudreau
Kenny Lofton

Doug

9 years ago

This round’s tidbits. – Enos Slaughter’s long career includes being the answer to the trivia questions “Who hit the last home run in the Baker Bowl?” and “Who is the only player to play against Kiki Cuyler and Willie McCovey?”. Who is the only pitcher to face Slaughter who played with Jim Thorpe? – Phil Masi retired in 1952 as the career leader in games played as a Braves catcher. He was succeeded by Del Crandall who is still today the franchise leader in games caught. – Eddie Miller was a 7-time NL All-Star shortstop, including 3 times in seasons… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Additional tidbits:

Hank Majeski is the only player to have a season of 120+ RBI and not have another one with more than 72.

Buddy Lewis is one of 6 players to accumulate 1000 hits prior to his 25th birthday. The other 5 are Cobb, Ott, Kaline, Lindstrom and Yount.

Preacher Roe is one of 3 pitchers to have 2 consecutive qualifying seasons, 1951-1952, of .800+ winning percentage. The other 2 are Ed Reulbach, 1906-1907, and Lefty Grove, 1930-1931.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Eddie Lake is one of two SS with 3+ consecutive seasons of 100+ BB. He did it from 1945-1947. Eddie Joost is the other, who did in for 6 consecutive years, 1947-1952.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

@7/RC:

Not as dramatic, but Willie Davis had 153 RBI (1962), with his next-highest total being 89 (twice). He also scored 120 runs that year, with a his next-highest total being 72 runs.

Ellis Burks had a similar RBI/Runs year in 1996.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Randy Johnson probably deserves a mention here with the 3 pitchers to have consecutive qualifying seasons with an .800+ winning percentage. RJ 1995: 18-2, .900 RJ 1996: 5-0, 1.000 but nowhere near qualified RJ 1997: 20-4, .833 Including his last two decisions in 1994, RJ went 45-6 (.882) from there ’til the end of ’97. Lefty Grove won 15 of his last 16 decisions in 1930, then went 31-4 in 1931, then won his first decision in 1932. So that’s a 47-5 streak for Grove, which is .904. Yeah. I guess I’m looking for best possible winning %, 50 or… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

I guess could re-word my statement to Roe, Reulbach and Grove are the only pitchers to have 2 consecutive seasons of qualifying and having an .800 winning percentage.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

No, you worded it right the first time, Richard. I was just bringing up RJ as a guy who likely would have done the same were it not for his injury in ’97.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Johnny Allen had a streak of 42-5 (.893) from 1936-38, 15-3 to close out 1936, 15-1 in 1937 and 12-1 to start 1938. Extending it to 50 decisions, it becomes 43-7 (.860), just shy of Roe.

The flip side of worst W-L% over a 50-decision span may belong to a HOFer. Red Ruffing went 8-41 (.163) with 5-20 and 3-21 in 1928-29. Call it 9-41 (.180) for 50 decisions.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Partial answer to the Bob Muncrief question:

Greg Maddux had 19 wins with the Braves 4 times (also once for the Cubs).

Warren Spahn had 21 wins with the Braves 8 (!) times, but I’m not sure if the question was “4 seasons exactly” or “4 or more seasons”.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

It was 4 or more.

You’ve got half the answer.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

John Smoltz (14 for the Braves 4 times) is the 3rd. Could the 4th be a Brave, too? (It’s neither Glavine nor Burdette, although Glavine came close, winning 14 3 times, and 20 3 times.)

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

The fourth is not a Brave. Richard has it below with Sunday Teddy.

brp

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Mark Buehrle was one of my first thoughts; he won 13 games exactly four years in a row, but the last was in Miami, so he’s not the answer.

I think it’s surprising this hasn’t happened more often and am also thinking it’s more likely to be a recent pitcher with something in the realm of 12-15 wins. But I could be wrong.

I’ve checked a bunch of guys I thought might be – Palmer, Mathewson, Gibson, Roberts, Carlton, Halladay, just haven’t hit on it.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to brp

I can see it being a recent pitcher because win totals would be less extreme in their range.

But, with players changing teams so much, would be unlikely to happen all with the same team.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Ted Lyons had 4 winning seasons with 12 wins for the White Sox.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Enos Slaughter question: Waite Hoyt

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Correct. The one game that Hoyt played with Thorpe was for the Giants against the Cardinals in 1918. If Bobby Wallace had appeared in that game for the Cards, Hoyt would have faced players who played over a 65 year period, from 1894 to 1959. The longest span I’m aware is 70 years for Tony Perez and Steve Carlton, who both appeared against Warren Spahn (1942-65) and Jamie Moyer (1986-2012). But for the schedule maker, Tommy John might also have had a 70 year span with Early Wynn (1939-63) and Gary Sheffield (1988-2009). Wynn and John were teammates and active… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Stan Musial played against Pete Rose in 1963. Rose and Moyer had one overlapping year, 1986. That year Moyer played for one game for the Cubs versus the Reds and Rose played in 4 games for the Reds versus the Cubs but they never played in the same game together. If they did there would have been a span of 71 years, from 1941 to 2012.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Harry the Hat: Dean Alexander in 1932 played for Detroit and Boston. In 23 games with the Tigers, though, he hit .250; in Boston, he hit .375, and won the title with a .367 AVG. He hit .281 the next year, and then never played again after burning his leg in an accident attempting to heal his injury. Nap Lajoie is the other, leading the AL in 1902. That’s a little cheap, though, since he only played one game for the A’s before moving on to Cleveland. An honorable mention goes out to Willie McGee, who in 1990 won the… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Dale Alexander, in 1932, is one of 7 players to win a batting title with fewer than 400 AB in a non-shortened season. The others are Lajoie (1902), Cobb (1914), Hargrave (1926), Garms (1940), Lombardi (1942) and Bonds (2004).

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

@34/RC:

I’ve sometime seen other players listed as league leaders for those years; Ed Delahanty in 1902, Eddie Collins in 1914. In 1926 the top _four_ NL BA leaders had less than 400 PA. Two were catchers; I think there were lower numbers of AB for catchers to qualify for the batting title, right?

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@48

I got my data from the PI.

I don’t know about the lower number for catchers.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@49/RC;

From wikipedia, under “Qualifications for the batting title”:

“1920–1949 – A player had to appear in 100 games to qualify in the National League; the AL used 100 games from 1920–1935, and 400 at-bats from 1936–1949. The NL was advised to adopt 400 at-bats for the 1945 season, but League President Ford Frick refused, feeling that 100 games should stand for the benefit of CATCHERS and injured players.”

Not quite the same, but it looks like they were trying to give catchers a better chance.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@51, LA: That’s interesting.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Wow. If the AL rule had been 400 AB in 1932, Alexander loses the BA title to Jimmie Foxx, who then wins the Triple Crown that year.

Even if there was a ghost AB rule in effect for 1932, giving Alexander an 0 for 8 to get him to 400 AB would lower his BA to exactly .360, which would lose to Beast’s .364 mark.

That would have given Foxx two consecutive Triple Crowns (’32 and ’33), a feat never seen in baseball history. Again: wow.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Isn’t there some “dispute” about Ernie Lombardi’s batting title in 1942? Lombardi hit .330 – in 105 games, 347 PAs, 309 ABs. Slaughter finished 2nd at .318 (it’s safe to say Lombardi wouldn’t hit higher than .318 with phantom ABs) in 687 PAs. He would never win a batting title. And then something similar with Ted Williams – he hit .345 in 526 PAs in 1954 (should be good to beat out Bobby Avila’s .341, right?). But he didn’t have 400 ABs (only 386) because he walked 136 times (and had a HBP and 3 SFs). Well, rules are rules.… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Artie: no dispute in Lombardi’s case because 100 games was the qualification in the NL, per comment #51.

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Re Harry the Hat:

Don’t know the answer, but his absence was hardly a factor in the decline of the Cards. He was a poor fielding, singles hitting, journeyman outfielder who happened to have a career year after the trade.

His brother Dixie, now he was a player.

brp

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Lindell question: Lou Gehrig, 1926. Never, ever would have guessed this without the PI.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to brp

No way! As a manual checker, I don’t think I EVER would’ve figured that out. Crazy.

Luis Gomez

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I will take a guess at the Danny Litwhiler question: One of them is Yasiel Puig.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Luis Gomez

I can tell you that Hurricane Hazle is NOT one of them. He had 4 3-hit games (technically one was a 4 hit game) in the first 17 games of his career. If only he didn’t play 6 games in 1955. Fred Lynn, while he hit .419 in 15 games in 1974, only had one 3 (actually 4) hit game. I thought Luis was correct with Puig because he had 4 3-hit games in his first 13 games (so he did it faster), but then I saw that DiMaggio had 4 3-hit games in his first 11 games – and… Read more »

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Elmer Valo played against Aloysius Szymanski when Simmons was a Red So> in 1943, and played for KC in 1955 and 1956.

You may remember Valo from a few COG posts back because he played for PHI/KC Athletics, BKN/LA Dodgers, WAS/MN Senatwins. He also played for the Phillies, Yankees, and Indians, who did not move during his tenure.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Valo is one of three players to hit two bases loaded triples in one game. Bill Bruton and Duane Kuiper are the others.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Valo is the answer.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Answers to the remaining questions:

Miller question: non-shortstop with 3 seasons below 65 OPS+ in 300+ PA, AND 2 seasons with 3.5 oWAR – Tony Pena

Roe question: pitchers having 20+ start seasons with both an .800 W-L% and a W-L% below .250 – Chief Bender, Juan Guzman, David Cone

Litwhiler question: Players with 5+ games of 3 hits among first 15 in career – Terry Pendleton, Bo Hart

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I was positive the Miller question was Frank White but he missed on all 5 counts: his worst OPS+ in 300 PA season were 66,66 & 69 and his highs in oWAR were 3.3 & 2.8.

J.R.

9 years ago

Ford, Biggio, Killebrew

BillH

9 years ago

Ford, Murray, Alomar

koma

9 years ago

Craig Biggio, Dennis Eckersley, Harmon Killebrew

Mike G.

9 years ago

Brown, Eckersley, Lofton

aweb

9 years ago

Lofton, Reese, and back to Killebrew for me.

RonG

9 years ago

Ford, Campanella, Minoso

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

–I’m not sure why the voting post for this round published before the Sandberg results post from the last round, but these things happen.

–Which is I guess what Mickey Owen would say. Several guys associated with particular World Series moments are on this ballot. In addition to Owen ), there’s Slaughter and Harry Walker, who appear in this film clip as and base runner and hitter: http://www.stltoday.com/enos-slaughter-s-mad-dash-mov/youtube_447c7d95-9f2a-5903-b31d-392ca69653fe.html

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Weirdly, my RSS feeder picked this one up first, too. When I clicked it, I got the error page. Then I went over to the OTHER post, which somehow was up, but my RSS HADN’T yet found. Then a few minutes later, both were up. Dunno what happened, but it sure was weird.

Bix

9 years ago

Campanella, Eckersley, Killebrew

Steven

9 years ago

Pee Wee Reese, Harmon Killebrew, and Enos Slaughter.

Jeff Harris

9 years ago

Lofton, Brown, Murray

9 years ago

Lofton, Boudreau and Brown.

9 years ago

Slaughter ford lofton

mosc

9 years ago

Ford, Reese, Campanella

donburgh

9 years ago

Craig Biggio, Kenny Lofton, Eddie Murray

bells

9 years ago

Anybody know much about Buddy Lewis? I found it interesting in Doug’s tidbits that he was such a prolific hitter at an early age, yet I’d never heard of him. Looking at his b-r page, it seems like he was on pace to be a solid player by age 24, but after a few missed years (presumably due to the war although it doesn’t explicitly say), he came back, had a couple of okay years, and was essentially done by 30. That seems curious.

Chris C

9 years ago

Reply to bells

Bill James wrote a little about him in the BJHBA (page 211 and 564). He listed Lewis as one of his 12 candidates who potentially missed out on the HOF because of the war.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to bells

B-ref’s Bullpen page for Lewis has a rather detailed and interesting bio. Seems a combination of an injury and a preference for managing his auto dealership back home led him to an early retirement from baseball. Sounds like a real war hero, too; that may have helped put baseball in perspective. John G. Rossi interviewed Lewis for his book “A Whole New Game” about baseball after World War II. Rossi reports that Lewis “came back to baseball [after the war] prematurely gray-haired at 29 and was out of baseball after two and half years…. Lewis just lost the taste for… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to bells

Most triples through age 24:

86 Cobb
79 Crawford
79 Sherry Magee
72 Rajah
65 Buddy Lewis
65 Carl Crawford
63 Goose Goslin
61 Arky Vaughan
61 Garry Templeton
___________________

Most Runs, through age 24:

680 Ott
642 Mantle
627 Alex Rod
618 Cobb
614 Buddy Lewis
612 Foxx
________________

2nd in Plate Appearances (Yount)
4th in Games
11th in Doubles
11th in Total Bases

Chris C

9 years ago

Biggio, Reese, Eckersley

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reese, Campanella, Minoso Feels weird not voting for Sandberg. Looked closely at Slaughter but the only way he makes it even to the grey area where he might would be if he had 3 seasons as good as or better than the 3 best of his career. While I don’t think it’s totally unreasonable to give him credit for that I’m not willing to go that far. Definitely a Hall of Famer but not quite in the Circle of Greats. That also means we’re now entirely into players whose careers ended before I started following baseball. Spahn, Musial & Williams… Read more »

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Before Pete Rose made it a trademark, Enos Slaughter was known as the player who ran to and from the dugout to his outfield position. At age forty, his last fairly full-time season, he was picked up by the Yankees from KC late in the year and played in six games in the WS against the Dodgers, batting .350 with six runs scored, mostly futilely in the two opening games, which the Dodgers won.

After leaving baseball he was just as tireless as on the field in promoting himself for the HOF.

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Brown 43.3
Boudreau 42.3
Lofton 39.3
Alomar 37.1
Biggio 36.3
Eckersley 34.3
Murray 33.7
Reese 33.4
Killebrew 33.0
Minoso 30.6
Ford 29.3
Slaughter 24.4
Campanella 19.2

Brown, Boudreau, Reese

Andy

9 years ago

Whitey Ford, Craig Biggio, Kevin Brown

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Biggio, Minoso, and Enos…. — Mister, do you have any bats? — Oh, certainly, here’s a fine bat. Autographed by Slaughter of the Cardinals. This bat was made for Slaughter. — Haven’t you got any that were made for baseball? — When he says Slaughter, he means Slaughter, the baseball player. — Slaughter the baseball player? With that bat, you could slaughter anybody. — No, no, I’m talking about Slaughter. Everybody knows Slaughter. Enos Slaughter. — Well, maybe he knows Slaughter, but I don’t know him. — You idiot, everybody knows Slaughter the baseball player, Slaughter is the man’s last… Read more »

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

recall from the Ryne Gold post:

Highest Power-Speed Number For A Single Franchise, MLB History
1. Willie Mays 442.1 for the Giants
2. Barry Bonds 363.1 for the Giants
3. Hank Aaron 361.6 for the Braves
4. Craig Biggio 341.8 for the Astros
5. Ryne Sandberg 309.9 for the Cubs

(Power-Speed Number is the harmonic mean of the hitter’s home runs and his stolen bases)

Artie Z

9 years ago

Pee Wee, Kevin Brown, and off-the-bubble Murray

9 years ago

Considering his missed 3 prime years to WWII I’m surprised Slaughter had to get in the Hall via the VC. I give him another 15.9 WAR (6.2 before the service, 4.4 after = 10.6 / 2 = 5.3 which bumps him up to 70.9 or so. His counting stats, if you still like those, and I do, also take a jump to 1500 to 1600 RS and RBIs, 2750 to 2850 hits, 500 2Bs, etc., and his Hall of Fame stats would also jump. He’s close, though as a RF I’m still not sure he’s a COG. Gwynn got in… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to PP

I wonder if it’s possible that Slaughter’s reputation as being a Jackie Robinson antagonist hurt his HOF reception.

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Could be. The taunting and foot spike at 1B might have tipped the vote the south for him.

Artie Z

9 years ago

Reply to PP

Part of it may be due to him not getting 15 years on the ballot. He was at 68.8% in his 14th ballot (1979). Then he’s not on the ballot in 1980. He was a tad behind Snider in 1979 (Snider was at 71.3% in his 10th ballot). Then the next year Snider jumped to 86.5%, even though Kaline came on the ballot. Perhaps Slaughter was technically “on” the phantom 1965 ballot – remember, there were alternating votes by the BBWAA and the VC in the 1960s. Maybe 1965 counted as a year for him, so while he was only… Read more »

Artie Z

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z

Let me correct one statement – it was 15 years after Slaughter’s 5 year waiting period, not after he retired.

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z

Possibly. I actually wasn’t aware voting was skipped in ’57, ’59. ’61, ’63, and ’65.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to PP

@47/PP;

WWII credit – apparently many BBWAA voters didn’t give any war credit at all back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

So, overwhelmingly qualified candidates such as Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio and Bob Feller still got in easily, but less than slam-dunk players such as Greenberg, Slaughter, and Mize really took a hit on the impressiveness of their career totals.

I can’t point to a specific source, that’s just what I’ve read.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

It makes sense, in a way. Prior to the MacMillan Encyclopedia in 1969, access to stats was hard enough, which meant that people were voting based on memories. Having your career chopped up into two “phases” (which the war did for many of these players) might have made it more difficult to remember how good they were, since their careers were split up. I mean, when you spend four years NOT thinking about Hank Greenberg, maybe you’re not sure about whether or not he deserves the Hall 25 years later. That makes sense to me.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

The MacMillan Encyclopedia was an enormous event in baseball statistics. I work with people who grew up during the time it first came out – some still have it on a shelf in the office. Others I’ve converted to looking at stats online. They really like converting Babe Ruth stats to the 2000 Rockies (or whatever year they have as the high run scoring environment). Also, I guess it was just the BBWAA that voted every other year as the VC voted in a lot of people. There’s one more complicating factor – the ballots were huge back then. I’m… Read more »

Abbott

9 years ago

boudreau, murray, biggio

bstar

9 years ago

“… and they were all elected while living so they could enjoy it.”

Artie: What a shame that we can’t say the same for Ron Santo.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Well, as of right now, bells and I are right. Not because we agree with one another, but because our ballots reflect the current 3-way tie at the top. Here’s an update:

9 – Brown, Lofton, Reese
7 – Biggio
6 – Ford, Killebrew, Murray
5 – Campanella
4 – Boudreau, Eckersley
3 – Minoso, Slaughter
1 – Alomar

Luis Gomez

9 years ago

Alomar, Killebrew, Miñoso.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Vote:

Kevin Brown
Lou Boudreau
Kenny Lofton

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

I’ll vote for Pee Wee at some point. _________ Reese and Boudreau through age 34 had roughly the same PA, even though Reese lost three prime years to the WAR. 34 was the end of Lou’s career. Reese went on to have three more productive years and two at replacement level. Lou was a WS winning player manager. All that other resume stuff aside, here are some of their numbers through those first 7000 PA: Old Shufflefoot: 63.0 WAR 42.2 WAA 193 Rbat -7 Rbaser 118 Rfield __________ The Little Colonel: 52.8 WAR 27.3 WAA 40 Rbat 31 Rbaser 93… Read more »

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Shortstops with 100 Rbat and 100 Rfield:

-Cal Ripken
-Lou Boudreau

Insert Name Here

9 years ago

Well, after missing a ballot due to a particularly large change in my real life, I’m back for 1916-Part 2: 1. Lou Boudreau (7.1 WAR/162 during 1940-48) – still not entirely comfortable with this, as discussion from the 1917 ballot showed, but I feel like he would still be ranked 3rd (most likely) if his war-year greatness were reduced in some way. 2. Kenny Lofton (6.8 WAR/162 during 1992-99) 3. Pee Wee Reese (5.8 WAR/162 during 11-yr peak of 1942-55) Ranking of others: 4. Craig Biggio (5.8 WAR/162 during 1991-99) 5. Kevin Brown (5.7 WAR/season during 1992-2000) 6. Harmon Killebrew… Read more »

dr. remulak

9 years ago

Biggio, Ford, Campanella.

Mike HBC

9 years ago

Reese, Eck, Biggio

I personally feel that it would be somewhat bonkers if Pee Wee doesn’t make it in soon, especially with only (in my eyes) two locks and one other candidate entering over the next four rounds.

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Ford, Alomar, Minoso

9 years ago

Reese, Killer, Minoso

I still can’t pull the trigger on Ford. It’s possible Campanella might not have deserved any of his 3 MVPs. Sorry Enos, it’s no country for racial taunters. Tough to pass on a guy with 1917 RBIs and another guy with 1844 runs. I’m tempted to give Lofton a Final Four bump. Not a fan of Alomar or Brown. Boudreau played through the war which diminishes his impact IMO. So why not Eck?

brp

9 years ago

Lofton
Murray
Slaughter

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Same approach as last time:

– for the win:
Pee Wee Reese
– extra round (‘cushion’):
Harmon Killebrew
– stay on the ballot:
Roberto Alomar

This may be the most wide-open round yet.

Editor

John Autin

9 years ago

Boudreau, Reese, Minoso.

robbs

9 years ago

boudreau reese lofton

9 years ago

Pee Wee Reese, Kevin Brown, Kenny Lofton

David Horwich

9 years ago

Alomar, Murray, Reese

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Ford, Murray, Killebrew

Darien

9 years ago

Lofton, Killebrew, and Biggio. Plus a shout-out to Preacher Roe, for no better reason than because I like the guy.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Darien

I’m looking at the trade that brought Preacher Roe to Brooklyn and trying to figure out how on earth it ever got made in the first place. Yes Brooklyn had to move Dixie Walker and yes he was 36 years old but he was still worthy of being on the All-Star team and had played about as well as he had the year before when he finished 2nd in MVP voting. Roe had some success during the war but had pitched abysmally since then. Cox had a couple of fairly decent post-war seasons for the Bucs and Mauch was young… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Interesting analysis. By my count, the Dodgers ended up with 27 or 28 b-ref WAR out of that deal and Pittsburgh with about 6 WAR. Not a bad day’s work for Branch Rickey. Wikipedia points out that it was Rickey, with the Cardinals, who had signed Roe to his first pro contract back in 1938, nine years before he brought Roe to the Dodgers.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Assuming everything is logged correctly, here’s a leader update through Darien’s vote @90: 17 – Pee Wee Reese 15 – Kenny Lofton 11 – Kevin Brown, Harmon Killebrew 10 – Craig Biggio 9 – Whitey Ford, Eddie Murray 8 – Lou Boudreau 7 – Minnie Minoso 6 – Roy Campanella 5 – Roberto Alomar, Dennis Eckersley 4 – Enos Slaughter Everyone from Boudreau on up should ALREADY be safe for the next round, regardless of outcome, though I imagine there will be a push to get a few of them to 25%. Slaughter has an outside shot at being added… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Dr. Doom – I was curious about the Lofton jump as well and did some checking yesterday. The Lofton voters were about evenly split into the following 4 groups: 1) People who voted for him last time. 2) People who didn’t vote at all in the last election. 3) People who voted for Sandberg last time and now had an open slot. 4) People who voted for 3 non-Lofton players last time, all of whom are still on the ballot, but this time chose to vote for Lofton. There have been a few more Lofton votes since I checked so… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to David P

I’ve been playing with this for the past month. We’re looking at who was Great. For this, I like the utility of WAA. Here is Wins Above Average, expressed as a rate stat, by dividing it into Plate Appearances (PaWaa). With Sandberg off the ballot, Lofton looks even stronger. 166.4 … (7304) Lou Boudreau 241.8 … (9235) Lofton 243.6 … (9282) Ryno 287.8 … (7712) Minoso 298.7 … (9470) Pee Wee Reese 306.7 … (4815) Campanella 322.0 … (10400)Alomar 350.0 … (9833) Killer 409.3 … (9086) Enos Slaughter 435.7 … (12504) Biggio 474.8 … (12817) Steady Eddie ____________________________ IP per… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo, a suggestion for PaWaa: If you express it instead as WAA per 650 PAs, you’d get a stat that (a) meets our gut sense that “bigger is better,” and (b) expresses a typical full year for that player.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Here’s what that looks like: 3.76 … Boudreau 2.69 … Lofton 2.17 … Pee Wee 1.37 … Steady Eddie ________ This standardizes something that is far from standard. Who averages 650 PA per year over the course of a career? Nobody. Not even Steady Eddie. I like to visualize game in, game out, who contributed to their team’s wins over the course of the marathon baseball season. Seeing that it took Slaughter 410 PA to contribute a win above average while Minoso did the same in 288 PA – that’s (roughly) 40 extra games. This helps me assign a more… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Pee Wee vs. Lofton is interesting, and closer than people might think. There was an initial criticism of Lofton when he first got on these boards: too much of his value came from his defense. Let’s look at how much that is true, and then compare it to Reese’s numbers: Lofton dWAR: 14.7, 21.5% of his total WAR Pee Wee dWAR: 25.6, 38.6% of his total WAR This percentage wouldn’t really change when we add credit for missed wartime years for Reese. The other criticism of Lofton was that the other metric available for measuring defense from earlier days, DRA,… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

So much to speculate about with Pee Wee. If he plays those 3 war years, does he still play until he’s 39? He was at 3.5 WAA the year before the war and the year after. Both with about 650 PA. Simply adding 1950 PA and 10.5 WAA to his total puts him at 11420 PA 42.2 WAA That 42.2 is precisely the number Boudreau got in 7000 PA. And while Pee Wee was “The Little Colonel”, Old Shufflefoot was actually the Field General. But, in comparing Pee Wee and Kenny, here’s how those imaginary three years stack him up… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Further speculation… Give Reese those 10.5 WAA for the missing war years. Including those 1950 PA, calculate his first 7000 PA, to match Boudreau: That would have put Pee Wee at 29.9 WAA through age 31. Pretty great, but: PaWAA: 166.4 … (7024) Lou Boudreau 199.6 … (6825) Lofton 230.9 … (6904) Pee Wee (his real number through 7000 was 254.6) _____________________________ Looking at it in the opposite direction, what if Boudreau played for five more years, at the same quality of play as Pee Wee’s last five years? Pee Wee racked up 2520 PA 4.4 WAA That would give… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Good point. Maybe just 80% for wartime credit? I don’t know. If we give Reese full credit for 3 years, should we give Lofton his time missed to the strike in ’94-’95? I get an extra 3.1 WAR for ’94 alone, which would be another 2.5 WAA (the rest would be extra replacement runs). That *could* have been baseball’s first 10+ WAR season for a centerfielder since some dude named Mays in ’65 (looking between Mays and Mike Trout).* 0.5 extra WAR and maybe 0.3 WAA for ’95 time missed, using a ratio of Lofton’s games played divided by team… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Sure, he got screwed in ’94, but so did everybody else, including us.

Though of course, a 10 WAR season would have changed the conversation
(it would have HERE, at least. He likely still would have been overshadowed by Griffey and Gwynn in ’94)

WAA Leaders, 1994:

6.7 … Bagwell
5.6 … Lofton
5.2 … Griffey
4.8 … Bonds
4.7 … Frank Thomas

9 years ago

Whitey Ford, Lou Boudreau, Kenny Lofton

Bill Johnson

9 years ago

Killebrew, Boudreau, and Eckersley

Jeff

9 years ago

Biggio, Ford, Reese