Circle of Greats: Redemption Round #6

This Circle of Greats (COG) vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle, but only to select three players who will be restored back on to the main ballot after having been previously been dropped from eligibility.  This sixth “redemption round” (we’ve been holding such redemption votes interspersed among the regular voting rounds every tenth voting round or so) gives voters a chance to reconsider past candidates who have previously fallen off the regular weekly ballot.

In this round you may include on your three-man ballot any major league baseball player who was born between 1915 and 1969 and has neither been elected to the Circle of Greats nor is currently on the 1914 COG ballot.  As usual, you must vote for three and only three to cast a qualifying ballot.  The three players who appear on the most ballots will be restored to eligibility for the next regular, induction round of COG voting.  If your personal favorite doesn’t come in the top three this time, do not despair — he will have other chances in future redemption rounds, which are currently scheduled to be held once after every ten regular induction rounds.

There are many, many players who are eligible for your votes in this redemption round. As an optional aid to your selection process, I’ve put together two spreadsheets, one for pitchers and one for everyday players, that include some stats for a substantial selection of relevant players: Redemption Round 6 Optional Hitter List and Redemption Round 6 Optional Pitcher List. The spreadsheet with everyday players includes the 143 everyday players born between 1915 and 1969 who accumulated at least 36 Wins Above Replacement (baseball-reference version). The list is in order of career regular season plate appearances, from high to low. The pitcher list includes 147 pitchers born between 1915 and 1969 who accumulated at least 25 pitching Wins Above Replacement. That list is ordered by career regular season batters faced, from high to low. Again, these spreadsheets represent entirely discretionary lists — your full options are as stated: all major leaguers born between 1915 and 1969 who have not been inducted into the COG and are not on the 1914 ballot that is also the subject of a vote this week.

The deadline to cast your ballots in this redemption round is Monday night, September 22 at 11:59PM EDT. You can change your votes until 11:59PM EDT on Saturday night, September 20.  You can keep track of the vote tally in this redemption round here: COG Redemption Round 6 Vote Tally, which as a starting point includes all the names of players who received votes in the most recent redemption round, except those who no longer need redemption because they won redemption in that most recent round and are on the current 1914 ballot: Roberto Alomar, Kevin Brown and Dennis Eckersley.

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ajnrules
9 years ago

Don Sutton
Early Wynn
Bret Saberhagen

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago

Rick Reuschel
Graig Nettles
Luis Tiant

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Three pitchers I’d like to see return on my ballot:

Jim Bunning
Luis Tiant
Rick Reuschel

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Nettles, Tiant, Winfield

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Will Clark, Tiant, Ted Simmons

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Here’s my approach to try to hack away at all the options… (note: this is long, but hopefully a handy accesory to the spreadsheet) . Plate Appearances per Wins Above Average. This is WAA, broken down as a rate stat. This stat has to be looked at with an contextual understanding of the length of the player’s career. Guys who hang around for a long time after they were superstars tend to fall off a cliff. On the flip side, players with long careers who maintained a low PaWaa, now that’s good stuff. _____ I’ve broken it down by levels… Read more »

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

this is great. fun to look at, great alternative perspective, plenty to chew on.

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Innings Pitched per Win Above Average (IpWaa) ______ 4000+ IP . 215.1 … Tommy John (4710) 210.5 … Frank Tanana (4188) 225.7 … Don Sutton (5282) _________ 3,000 – 4,000 IP . 93.4 …. Rick Reuschel (3548) 101.0 … Luis Tiant (3486) 111.8 … Chuck Finley (3197) 120.0 … Don Drysdale (3432) 124.7 … Orel Hershiser (3130) 127.7 … Billy Pierce (3307) 132.9 … Jim Bunning (3760) 154.7 … Larry Jackson 155.4 … Milt Pappas 157.0 … David Wells 159.3 … Jerry Koosman 165.2 … Kenny Rogers 209.1 … Mickey Lolich _______ 2,000 – 3,000 IP . 69.6 …. Bret… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Working from the old spreadsheet, I missed a couple of the later dropoffs:

80.0 … (2993) Hal Newhouser
83.8 … (2255) Hoyt Wilhelm

David P
David P
9 years ago

FYI – Alomar and Eckersley are still listed on the redemption candidate spreadsheets.

Danny Boy
Danny Boy
9 years ago

Cone
Koosman
Saberhagen

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago

I remember when the boxscores would indicate DaEvans and DwEvans.

(Also DaMurphy and DwMurphy, LnParrish and LrParrish, and LeSmith and LoSmith.)

I’m not voting yet.

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Rick Reuschel, Reggie Smith, Don Drysdale

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
9 years ago

Birtelcom:

Adding to comment #8, appears Kevin Brown is also on the redemption list and Hal Newhouser is not (who has a fairly high WAR rating to consider)

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

When I click on the vote tally for this redemption round, I get taken to the tally for the last redemption round.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

it also appears that the link is still to the last redemption round, as it is showing 61 votes. Probably birtelcom will update it when he goes to count the first batch of votes.

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Ken Boyer, Ted Simmons, Billy Williams,

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
9 years ago

Redemption vote:
Rick Reuschel
Luis Tiant
Graig Nettles

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
9 years ago

FYI – MJ’s vote at #11 was not tallied.
I now cannot access either the hitter or pitcher lists (puts me at a google login) – is sharing turned off or some other issue?

bells
bells
9 years ago

Here’s the vote according to my statistical methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ – adding the wins above average players (rather than replacement)… Read more »

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I’m seriously considering Hoyt Wilhelm, but think the other two pitchers belong back on the ballot first. But next time… and in case anyone loves lists like I do and is interested (in a separate post in case you’re not and the last one is long enough already), here are some other players in the top 50 according to the above methodology: 21. Keith Hernandez 22. Dave Stieb 23. Sammy Sosa 24. Bobby Bonds 25. Dave Winfield (who I expect to get one of the redemption spots) 26. Gary Sheffield 27. Chuck Finley… Read more »

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

Bells, I like your general idea of composite several different ranking pictures. And especially in redemption rounds where there are so many candidates to consider, it really helps to see your top 20/top 50 lists to know who to focus on. have you considered doing some kind of mean or harmonic mean of the actual ratings, rather than just using the ranks? Having a lot of players crowded close together in some rating, can mean that the difference between 5-10 ranks may be largely noise. In other cases, one or more players may be way ahead of the field in… Read more »

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

bells, Very helpful to have such a stats breakdown in a redemption round, when there are so many candidates to choose from (and limited redemption chances). I agree with your pitcher analysis (Newhouser and Cone were dropped a bit too quickly), but prefer Nettles over Smith. I just feel Nettles stood out a bit more at his position, and third basemen for the COG are hard to come by. Smith definitely deserves consideration, and I may have to accept McGwire and Palmeiro – but not yet. These debates on HHS have brought a spotlight to many non-HOF’s I had not… Read more »

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

I’m glad this is something at least a couple of people can use as a reference point – not in the sense that I think my approach is better than anyone else’s, but rather as a sort of reminder of who is up for consideration – as we go back in time the redemption candidates’ list becomes huge, and so a big listing seems appropriate. Of course, a cutoff of 50 WAR (as I took in my spreadsheet listing) misses guys like Quis and Fingers, but I personally am inclined towards other players first, so I’m fine with that.

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

Forgot to mention – with regards to Smith/Nettles, really with these higher-end redemption candidates it’s kind of a personal preference/coin flip situation. If Nettles were in a position to possibly return to the ballot and Smith was far out of the running, I would certainly consider a strategic vote change.

T-Bone
T-Bone
9 years ago

Thanks Bells. Great list. I have been a fan and proponent for people to look closer at Reuschel’s career and see that he’s much better than he looks at first glance. No brainer for me too.

My other two votes are more sentimental and based on childhood memories that have proven to only be partly true. I did mention irrational right?

Reuschel, Reggie Smith, Dick Allen.

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Don Drysdale, Dave Winfield, Ted Simmons

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Vote:

Wilie Randolph
Reggie Smith
Hoyt Wilhelm
____________

I like Reuschel, and will change my vote for him if he needs it.
But the above three guys have been under-represented.

Darien
9 years ago

Jim Bunning, Rafael Palmeiro, and Bret Saberhagen

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

It appears that my votes at #11 have yet to be tallied, although others that voted after me have?

aweb
aweb
9 years ago

Reuschel
McGwire
Palmeiro

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
9 years ago

Jim Abbott
Curtis Pride
Jim Eisenreich

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

Winfield, Doby, Irvin

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Drysdale, Sutton, Wilhelm

brp
brp
9 years ago

Hoyt Wilhelm
Willie Randolph

And because we shouldn’t pretend that a very high percentage of players in every decade in every era were cheating or attempting to cheat, Rafael Palmeiro.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Hal Newhouser
Rick Reuschel
Mark McGwire

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
9 years ago

Winfield, Randolph, Cone.

Bix
Bix
9 years ago

Ken Boyer, Ted Simmons, Hoyt Wilhelm

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago

Winfield, Drysdale, Puckett.

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
9 years ago

Stargell, Colavito, and Bunning

Abbott
Abbott
9 years ago

Winfield, Simmons, Allen

Paul E
Paul E
9 years ago

Allen, Simmons, Sutton

J.R.
J.R.
9 years ago

Darryl Strawberry, Gil Hodges, Don Sutton

Francisco
Francisco
9 years ago

Dave Winfield, Jeff Kent, Luis Tiant

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago

Ken Boyer, Luis Tiant, and Keith Hernandez

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago

Ralph Kiner, Rick Reuschel, Willie Stargell

Steve
Steve
9 years ago

Early Wynn, Willie Stargell, Hoyt Wilhelm

BillH
BillH
9 years ago

Tiant, Winfield, Palmeiro

Mike G.
Mike G.
9 years ago

Reuschel, Cone, Tiant

RonG
RonG
9 years ago

Lou Brock
Ted Simmons
Ron Guidry

Arsen
Arsen
9 years ago

I’m going to give two Philly guys a push and a pitcher that was not only a great player but extremely entertaining to watch.

Dick Allen, Richie Ashburn and Luis Tiant.

MikeD
MikeD
9 years ago

Nettles, Winfield, Drysdale.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

I strongly considered this ballot as well

MikeD
MikeD
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Honestly, these ballots are the most painful for me to figure out!

koma
koma
9 years ago

Mark McGwire, Jamie Moyer, Omar Vizquel

TJay
TJay
9 years ago

Simmons, McGwire, Allen.

mo
mo
9 years ago

Rueschel Drysdale Ashburn

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago

Larry Doby, Luis Tiant, Reggie Smith

David P
David P
9 years ago

Reuschel, Tiant, Nettles

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

Rick Reuschel, Luis Tiant, Monte Irvin

2 centerfielders- Doby & Ashburn, were choices 4a & 4b

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Boyer, Quisenberry, Ashburn