Circle of Greats: 1911 Balloting

206 Replies

This post is for voting and discussion in the 75th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds players born in 1911 to the list of eligible candidates. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1911-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Monday, October 27, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Saturday, October 25.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1911 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1911 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1911 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Lou Boudreau (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Joe Gordon (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1911, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Joe Medwick
Hank Greenberg
Frank McCormick
Tuck Stainback
Don Heffner
Harry Danning
Bill Knickerbocker
Hank Leiber

Pitchers (born in 1911, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Denny Galehouse
Al Benton
Van Mungo
Nels Potter

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koma

9 years ago

Whitey Ford, Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley

bells

9 years ago

Here’s the vote according to my statistical methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ – adding the wins above average players (rather than replacement)… Read more »

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to bells

I don’t think Greenberg was undervalued. A one word response to why it took him 8 ballots to get into the HOF: backlog. Greenberg’s first real ballot (not counting his appearance in 1945 when he was still active) had: Gehringer, Ott, Al Simmons, Dean, Foxx, Terry, Paul Waner, Dickey, Heilmann, Maranville, Hartnett, Cronin, Vance … and plenty of others who would eventually be HOFers through one method or another. No player received 75%. Gehringer won the runoff, so he was the only one of those guys who came off the ballot in 1949. It was split again in 1950, but… Read more »

bells

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

you know, I even knew that there was that significant backlog over that period of time, and we had talked about it recently with the DiMaggio vote etc… I blame it on my late-night brain not making the right connections. Yes indeed, it was quite the backlog, appreciate you pointing it out.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to bells

Medwick did have 21 RBAT in 1944, I’m inclined to think most of that was from wartime pitching absences. Too much of his candiacy is on batting average. His OB is pedestrian and he played left field. Lots of doubles and triples but his pop was quite fleeting.

paget

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

@21, I don’t know mosc, a right-handed hitter who has 2500 hits and a .324 BA? That’s pretty tough to argue against, especially when you couple it with all his extra-base power. Unless I counted wrong, there are only five players from the live-ball era with a higher life time BA who hit from the right side. I could see him being at the low end of the COG membership, but he definitely belongs in my opinion. Especially when you consider that virtually all of his production takes place over just the 10 years he played before the US entered… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to paget

Paget @153 – I did a search the other day for players who were similar to Medwick in terms of WAR, WAA and PAs. I came up with 4 players:

Bobby Bonds
Will Clark
Jimmy Wynn
Cesar Cedeno

If you support Medwick, then do you also support the other 4 players? If not, then what difference do you see between them? (this is an honest question).

paget

9 years ago

Reply to David P

@153, David P- I guess my response to your question has to begin with an acknowledgment of the fact that, while I certainly pay attention to WAR/WAA, for me, evaluating players’ value neither begins nor ends with those interpretations of stats. I think WAR has gone a long way toward demonstrating that the four players you list above are probably not thought highly enough of in general. But I wouldn’t put any of them on the same level as Medwick. I value batting average a lot more highly than I believe many HHS readers do. A corollary to this is… Read more »

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to David P

Paget – I’ve always felt that left handed hitters (who are also left handed throwers) have a WAR disadvantage in that they will play either the outfield or first base, no matter how good of a defensive player they are. Unless they are centerfielders, their handedness is a handicap in Rpos. And it is only recently (since the 1980s) that centerfielders have a positive Rpos. Had George Brett been a left-handed thrower, he may well have lost 130 Rpos because he would have had to play first (unless he plays LF), and I don’t think he’s making up for those… Read more »

paget

9 years ago

Reply to David P

@165 Artie Z, That’s a great point, and one which I’ll have to mull over a bit. Let me for the moment then simply confine myself to the observation that WAR doesn’t take righty/lefty split in its Rbat calculation. As I said before, to some extent that makes sense to me. But part of me also thinks that recognizing the added challenges of hitting for high average as a RH hitter is something that should be acknowledged when evaluating, for example, Medwick’s career. @160, Ok, I wasn’t being precise enough. Yes, 2471 is Medwick’s official hit count. 2500 was just… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to paget

Just to keep the numbers accurate Medwick accumulated 2471 hits, not 2500+. Among RH batters with at least 2400 hits Medwick has the 7th highest BA. From the 3 consecutive years from 1935-1937 he accumulated 684 hits. That mark has been bettered by only Ichiro, Sisler, Hornsby and Terry.

Steven

9 years ago

Ford, Greenberg, Medwick.

KalineCountry Ron

9 years ago

Hank Greenberg
Eddie Murray
Minnie Minoso

JEV

9 years ago

Greenberg, Killebrew, Medwick

latefortheparty

9 years ago

Kevin Brown
Lou Boudreau
Joe Gordon

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Hank Greenberg
Joe Gordon
Kevin Brown

Bix

9 years ago

Medwick, Greenberg, Eckersley

Mike L

9 years ago

bells, @2, regarding Greenberg, given the modern focus on whether someone will be first ballot or not, or whether anyone will ever get 100%, it obscures what was customary in the past. Jimmie Foxx took 7 ballots, Pete Alexander 3, Joe D. 3, Mel Ott 4, Lefty Grove 3, Rogers Hornsby 5. Seems nuts–imagine a HOF without those folk, but I think Greenberg’s experience was not exceptional. The NY Times has an interesting bit this morning about Tim Hudson. Hudson’s career line of 213 Wins,.633 winning percentage, and a 3.45 ERA has been bested in all three categories by only… Read more »

Jeff Harris

9 years ago

Greenberg, Boudreau, Brown

Chris C

9 years ago

Greenberg, Eck, Tiant

Francisco

9 years ago

Hank Greenberg, Joe Medwick, Kevin Brown

Mike HBC

9 years ago

Hammerin’ Hank, Flash Gordon, Eck.

9 years ago

Hank Greenberg, Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Brown 43.3
Boudreau 42.3
Reuschel 40.6
Tiant 37.5
Gordon 37.1
Alomar 37.1
Greenberg 37.0
Eckersley 34.3
Murray 33.7
Killebrew 33.0
Winfield 31.1
Minoso 30.6
Medwick 30.2
Ford 29.3
Campanella 19.2

Greenberg probably lost 10 to 20 WAA to war. He’s a no-doubter. Ducky’s got that ’37, but man, was he bad in his thirties.

Greenberg, Brown, Boudreau

Steve

9 years ago

Whitey Ford; Joe Medwick; Hank Greenberg

brp

9 years ago

Greenberg
Winfield
Murray

Brent

9 years ago

Greenberg (he also has the poem with the highest WAR written about him)
Minoso
Alomar

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Brent

In honor of the recently passed High Holidays: The Irish didn’t like it when they heard of Greenberg’s fame For they thought a good first baseman should possess an Irish name; And the Murphys and Mulrooneys said they never dreamed they’d see A Jewish boy from Bronxville out where Casey used to be. In the early days of April not a Dugan tipped his hat Or prayed to see a “double” when Hank Greenberg came to bat. In July the Irish wondered where he’d ever learned to play. “He makes me think of Casey!” Old Man Murphy dared to say;… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Brent

Here’s a post of mine from a few years ago. I was discussing 2-1 games in which one player for the winning team hit 2 solo HRs. “The most famous of those 2 HR 2-1 games was probably the one that occurred on 9/10/34. The Tigers were currently in first place battling the Yankees for the pennant. That day was the Jewish New Year and the Tigers had a scheduled game with the Red Sox. Hank Greenberg, who was religious, was torn over whether or not to play. He consulted with a Detroit rabbi and the ruling was that because… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Just a technical point: I think the Free Press headline was a version of the greeting “l’shana tova”, or “happy new year” in Hebrew. The Yiddish would have been much different, much more like German.

mosc

9 years ago

Greenberg, Gordon, Winfield

9 years ago

Greenberg Ford Reuschel

Bill Johnson

9 years ago

Killebrew, Greenberg, and Eckersley.

David P

9 years ago

I see that we’ve now entered what I consider to be the “Sketchy WAR” era. Obviously, we know the defensive numbers aren’t as accurate due to lack of info. But there’s another issue which I haven’t seen any discussion around. Look at Medwick’s Rdp. It’s 0 for every single year of his career. Then look at his Rbaser. In 1938, it was +1. In 1939, it was -1. Every other year of his career it was 0. Obviously there’s no way those numbers are accurate. You can see a similar pattern with Ernie Lombardi. He was considered one of the… Read more »

Abbott

9 years ago

Medwick, Greenberg, Winfield

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

This year’s tidbits. – Joe Medwick and Albert Pujols are the youngest players to reach the 500 double milestone, doing so on Jul 31, 1944 and Sep 22, 2012, when each was aged exactly 32 years, 250 days. Medwick’s 7 consecutive 40-double seasons (1933-39) is the longest such streak by an NL player. Who is the only AL player to match it? – Denny Galehouse is the only player to pitch 100 games for the Browns and Indians. He also pitched 100 games for the Red Sox, one of 9 starting pitchers (60% of games) since 1901 with 100 games… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Additional tidbits. Frank McCormick is one of 26 players with a PA/SO ratio of more than 30. His mark of PA/SO = 32.84 puts him in 18th place. Of those 26 players, his 128 career HR are the most. His .9992 fielding percentage at 1B in 1946 was the highest for a NL first-baseman until broken by Steve Garvey in 1984. Al Benton is the only pitcher to face both Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle. He faced Ruth in 4 different games in 1934 and faced Mantle once, on 7-2-52. I believe he is one of two pitchers to face… Read more »

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I would have thought that Bobo Newsom had faced the Babe and the Mick. Newsom faced Ruth in 1934 but he managed to miss Mantle despite 41 AL games in 1952-53 (but only one against the Yankees).

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Here’s one for you Richard.

Which player mentioned in my post was a teammate of both Rogers Hornsby and Mickey Mantle?

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

It was Bob Muncrief who was Hornsby’s teammate with the 1937 Browns and the 1951 Yankees. I don’t even remember Muncrief playing for the Yankees. He pitched in two games for them, both in a double-header on April 20.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

You’re forgiven for not knowing that Muncrief had been a Yankee. 🙂 That one day in pinstripes was Muncrief’s last double-header and Mantle’s first.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I do remember that Jack Kramer was a Yankee in 1951 but he missed Hornsby by two years. He (Kramer) played for the Browns in 1939.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I bet there’s a lot of 7 degrees of teammate separations that use that path to get back in time…

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Kramer played for both pennant-winning teams in 1951. There is one other pitcher since 1914 to start a game for both pennant-winning teams. Any guesses?

Are there any others who played for both pennant winners?

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

@57 Doug, I remember very clearly that Bengie Molina played for both the Rangers and the Giants in 2010. I remember thinking, “Well, lucky for him, no matter who wins, he’ll get a World Series ring.” As it turned out, although I’m sure he still got a ring (at least, I assume that baseball teams give a ring to a guy who played 60 games for them in the first half), he didn’t get to be in the celebratory locker room. As Molina was traded for Chris Ray, he, too, has the distinction of playing for both Series teams (and… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

You don’t think anybody was thinking, “You know now that the WS is over, Bengie’s a FA again. Maybe we should invite him to come celebrate since he contributed to our WS season”??

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

@57

In 1952 Johnny Schmitz started 3 games for the Dodgers and 2 for the Yankees.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

@57

I have found only 5 other players who played for both pennant winners in the same year. Lonnie Smith (1985), Bengie Molina (2010),Sid Monge (1984), Arthur Rhodes (2011) and Chris Ray (2010).

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Only other one I could find was Jim Bruske playing for the Yankees and Padres (but mostly for the Dodgers) in 1998.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Answer to the Joe Medwick question: Wade Boggs

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Somehow my response didn’t get listed in Doug’s thread.

Medwick: Boggs, 1985-1991

Stainback: Dwight Smith … dang it, only 8 years.

Knickerbocker: Arky Vaughan, Garry Templeton, A-Rod, Ripken, Travis Jackson … (Jeter and Nomar didn’t play enough to make the list)

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

The other three shortstops were all contemporaries of Knickerbocker. Two of them were teammates to start their careers.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Mungo: Phil Niekro did this in 1979. Just to get an idea of what we’re looking for, he walked 113, but pitched 342 innings, and his BB9 was 2.97.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Correct. The other guy was famous for a particular marathon outing.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Spahn lead the league in ’51 but his BB/9 was slightly over at 3.2.

…Stoney McGlynn 1907, never heard of him

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Looking for a pitcher with such a season since 1920.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Don’t think that counts; Doug asked for “live ball era,” so I don’t think 1907 will cut it.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Oh, well that’s a hint to me then

Joe Oeschger 1921, basically deadball but not legally deadball? Whatever, 97 walks in 299 innings… and all of 68 strikeouts. I have some memory of him because of his 1922 season for most starts with at least as many relief appearances as starts (23)? I might be thinking of some other mediocre 1920s pitcher I can’t remember.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Oeschger is right. His 23 starts with as many relief appearances wasn’t the record, even in 1922. In fact, it wasn’t even the franchise record which belongs to Tom Hughes with 50 appearances and 25 starts for the 1915 Braves.

But, you’re right about the record belonging to a mediocre pitcher (so much so that his nickname bears such testimony). There’s the hanging breaking ball of a clue – can you hit it into the seats?

brp

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

@64, Hugh “Losing Pitcher” Mulcahy in 1937? 26 starts, 56 appearances.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Hugh Mulcahy had 26 in ’37. Anybody beat that?

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

It was indeed Mulcahy.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Potter – The 2011 Phillies were SOOO close to matching the criteria. Vance Worley finished with a 3.27 FIP, and only 131.2 innings. Otherwise, they’d have been on. The 2013 Tigers were also very close to doing it.

Greenberg – I know you didn’t from the .300/.400/.600 part as a question, but here are the other four: Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Babe Ruth. “The Usual Suspects,” I suppose one might call them.

Leiber – The only one I found was Minnie Minoso, 1953. How many am I looking for?

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

It was another Phillies team that is the only one since WWII with four pitchers matching those on the 1944 Browns.

One more player led in GIDP and HBP. He was a teammate of one of the 1911 class the year he did this.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Well, I ASSUMED after your clue that the Phillies team would be the ’50 Whiz Kids… but I was off by a couple. It was the 1952 Phils. The really impressive thing about that team is that the lowest innings total for the four players meeting your criteria is 201.2; so they EASILY clear that bar. Great question!

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Whitey Kurowski, NL, 1947 is the other GIDP/HBP leader. Dang; I don’t know how I missed that the first time around. The teammate on the current ballot whom you mentioned would of course by Joe Medwick of the 1947 Cardinals.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Tuck Stainback question: Johnny Gooch

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Right.

Gooch was twice involved in the WS-clinching play. In 1925, he was catching for the Pirates when Red Oldham struck out Goose Goslin to end that series. In 1927, Gooch was again behind the plate for the Bucs when Johnny Miljus uncorked his second wild pitch of the inning that allowed Earle Combs to score for a walk-off WS sweep by the Yankees.

Luis Gomez

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Do you know any other players, involved at least twice in WS clinching play?
The only one I´m sure of, is Joe Carter. Any others?

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Luis Gomez

Goose Goslin had a walk-off single to clinch the 1934 WS for the Tigers, so that gives him two involvements.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Luis Gomez

Edgar Renteria made the last out of the 2004 WS and ended the 1997 WS with a walk-off single. And, of course, let’s not forget Boss Schmidt who ended the 1907 WS with a pop-fly and the 1908 WS with a groundout.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Luis Gomez

Well, Mariano Rivera got the last out in 3 successive series (1998 to 2000) and also in 2009, and allowed a walk-off hit in 2001. Other pitchers to get the final out twice. – Will McEnaney, 1975 and 1976 – Rollie Fingers, 1972 and 1974 – Bob Gibson, 1964 and 1967 – Sandy Koufax, 1963 and 1965 – Bob Kuzava, 1951 and 1952 – Johnny Murphy, 1936 and 1939 For position players – Stuffy McInnis, made final putout in 1911, hit into final out in 1914 – Everett Scott, fielded final out in 1915 and 1916 – Babe Ruth, caught… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Luis Gomez

Other pitchers who got the last out in the deciding game:
Joe Page, 1947 and 1949
Art Nehf, 1921 and 1922
Christy Mathewson, 1905 and 1912

And of course Ralph Terry gave up a walkoff HR in 1960 and got the last out in 1962.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Interest in the quizzes seems to have died out so here are some more answers.

Al Benton question:
Clemens and Pettitte for the 2005 Astros and Lowe and Martinez for the 2002 Red Sox.

Harry Danning question;
Jason Kendall, Roy Campanella and Mike Scioscia

Mike McCormick question: Dan Driessen

Denny Galehouse question;

With some selective manual random searching I found Bullet Joe Bush, Carl Mays and Lee Meadows. Doug: For the life of me I cannot figure out how you retrieved all of the names. The same statement applies to a recent Ray Scarborough question.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Remaining quiz answers.

Denny Galehouse question – other starting pitchers with 100 games for each of 3 teams in career of less than 500 games: Jeff Suppan, Don Cardwell, Mike Caldwell, Ned Garver, Curt Davis plus Richard’s three

Bill Knickerbocker question – other players to bat .290 and play 500 games at shortstop thru age 24: Alex Rodriguez, Arky Vaughn, Travis Jackson, Cal Ripken, Dick Bartell, Garry Templeton, Vern Stephens, Joe Cronin

Both the Galehouse and Scarborough questions were solved using spreadsheet manipulation of extracts from the FanGraphs database.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Thanks Doug. You have opened up some new avenues for me.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Medwick: Wade Boggs, 1985-1991.

Doug Flynn is not the answer to the Heffner question, but he should at least get an honorable mention. From 1977-1984 he had at least 333 PAs each season and his highest OPS+ was 70. The 1981 strike saved him in one way (didn’t have 400 PAs that year), and his 14 IBB (out of 22 total) likely pushed his OPS+ up to 70 in 1980. And yes I checked Oyler and Mendoza but they didn’t play enough.

brp

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Some other honorable mentions:
Belanger pulled the trick 6 times, but never in four consecutive years. Rey Ordonez did it every year from 1996-2002, but only had 155 PAs in 2000 and 391 in 1997, so it’s not him either.

Looks like it’s Tim Foli from 1972-1975.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to brp

Not Foli. Looking for a longer streak than four years.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

It’s Hal Lanier, who had six consecutive seasons with an OPS+ under 70 and 400+ PA from 1965-1970 for the Giants. Lanier’s highest OPS+ during the streak was 52 and his average for those six years was 46. Wow, a ripe -200 Rbat during that six-year stretch.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

How to measure Greatness with a number? I try with this: _____________ Wins Above Average, expressed as a rate stat, by dividing it into Plate Appearances (PaWaa): 164.8 … (6097) Greenberg 166.4 … (7024) Lou Boudreau 176.2 … (6537) Joe Gordon 287.8 … (7712) Minnie Minoso 289.8 … (8143) Medwick 306.7 … (4815) Roy Campanella 322.0 …(10400) Rob Alomar 350.0 … (9833) Harmon Killebrew 474.8 …(12817) Eddie Murray 521.4 …(12358) Dave! Winfield _________________________ This stat in its raw form favors the career that ended early and abruptly (Gordon, Boudreau) to the player who hung on at league average or below… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Innings Pitched per Win Above Average
IpWaa:

80.3 …. (3256) Brown
93.1 …. (3548) Reuschel
101.0 … (3486) Tiant
107.4 … (3286) Eckersley
109.3 … (3170) Ford
159.9 … (2111) Mungo

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Medwick, Greenberg, Eckersley

oneblankspace

9 years ago

HOF member born in 1911, whose playing career consisted of coming in to play first base after Frankie Frisch had personally pinch hit for Johnny Mize (who was thrown out of the game for arguing balls and strikes) on the last day of the 1936 season against the Cubs:

Walter Alston

My vote for three players:
Ducky Medwick
Minnie Minoso
Eddie Murray

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Alston managed one PA in that game, striking out against Lon Warneke to end the contest.

T-Bone

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I haven’t verified this, but legend has it that Alston hit a long fly that went just foul or it would have been a Home Run, and then struck out in that 1 AB he got. Who knows how his career might have turned out had that ball stayed fair?

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

@45;

Well, at least Alston got an AB in MLB, unlike Moonlight Graham.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Most plate appearances in a season, with less than 20 of both BB and SO: 731 … Woody Jensen 671 … Frank McCormick (1938) 657 … Woody Jensen 640 … Don Mueller 639 … Lave Cross 635 … Emil Verban 624 … Stuffy McInnis 611 … Stuffy McInnis ______________________ Since 1987: 412 … Brian Harper 366 … Scott Bradley 359 … Scott Bradley 337 … Cesar Izturis 311 … Bill Buckner 308 … Luis Sojo 288 … Mackey Sasser 277 … Rafael Bournigal 275 … Rey Sanchez ____________________ Since 2000: 337 … Cesar Izturis 248 … Tike Redman 239 …… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

The 2014 leader in this category, at 116 PAs, was Clint Barmes, who was on the DL much of the season.

David P

9 years ago

Greenberg doesn’t need my support. Meanwhile, Medwick is taking votes away from holdover candidates that I feel are much more deserving.

So…Tiant, Murray, Alomar

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to David P

I really can’t understand why Medwick is getting more support than his former teammate Enos Slaughter and I thought Slaughter was a pretty marginal COG candidate. And personality-wise Medwick was kind of the Dave Kingman of his era so I don’t think that explains it either. He does belong on the All-Time Great Nickname team however, especially since it was actually Ducky Wucky.

Call him that to his face however and you would quickly get a fist in yours.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Four possible explanations, any/all of which may apply: 1. While Ducky Wucky was not known as the nicest of people, Enos Slaughter was a virulent racist, and has been remembered that way. When a guy is a marginal candidate, having a reputation like “least tolerant player in the majors” really destroys a guy’s candidacy. 2. Slaughter missed three years due to the war. Had he not, he likely would’ve wound up around 2900 hits. That would make him a lot harder to ignore. Medwick played through the war.* 3. Black ink; Medwick’s got a lot, Slaughter doesn’t. Plus, Medwick has… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Concerning your point number 4 I am surprised that Bill James made a statement like that. I am a long-time Yankees fan and when I think about the Yankees of the 1950s Slaughter almost never comes to mind. What I remember most about him is that for his second go-around as a Yankee in 1956, via the KC shuttle, the Yankees nastily gave Phil Rizzuto his release to make room for him. Slaughter is probably most famous for his mad dash home to score the winning run in game 7 of the 1946 WS. Also he played alongside Stan the… Read more »

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

How about Jason Giambi?

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

@90
Jason is the second oldest.
When the player who is currently the oldest broke that record, it was held by Babe Ruth.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Is it Reggie Jackson? He did it in his age-40 season (1986).

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Reggie is the third oldest.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Well, not that many guys played past 40, so it wasn’t that hard to find: Stan Musial, on July 8 1962 – at age 41, and in fact most of the way to 42!

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Good work Dr. Doom. That quiz was intended as a fun thing, not a stumper. We all need a break from Doug’s quizzes. Musial, Giambi, Jackson and Ruth are the only 4 40+ players with 3 HR in a game. I remember reading somewhere that Musial was the first, and maybe only, grandfather to hit a HR. Perhaps someone could verify.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Ruth’s degree of difficulty was MUCH higher than Musial’s. His home runs came off of two pitchers who combined for over 50 career WAR. Neither were homer prone and both had decent seasons in 1935.

Musial did it against the ’62 Mets, against two pitchers who were both homer prone and whose combined career WAR is less than 1.0.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

@99;

Also, the 3rd of Ruth’s three HR that day cleared the right field roof of Forbes Field, the first time that was done.

That was the final HR of Ruth’s career; he should’ve quit after that game (May 25th), instead of five days later.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

I agree, Slaughter’s case is better to me as well. Then again, I’m stunned we don’t see more support for Gordon. I see Gordon as far and away better than anyone else save Greenberg on this ballot and didn’t see much difference between him and Arky last round.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

I agree about Gordon but he did get a fair amount of support in his first 3 ballots. Maybe some voters figured he had enough of a cushion that if wasn’t likely to win a ballot they could support someone else or something. And Vaughan is a bit of tough case- he missed out on 3 entire seasons when he was still a very good player not because of segregation or the war but because he felt that Leo Durocher was a world class jerk. I can certainly appreciate his predicament. Back in those days players didn’t have any other… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

It’s not entirely clear to me what Arky’s status vis-a-vis the military would have been had he not gone home to his farm during the war years. I see some indication that his farming production may have been treated as sufficiently important that he could avoid the legal or moral obligation to serve in the military, but that if he had continued to play ball that might not have been similarly sufficient. Perhaps that influenced his decision to remain on the farm as long as he did. I’m just speculating though — I haven’t done enough research on this to… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Here’s a quote from Jackie Robinson. Arky had returned to the game in 1947: “He was one of the fellows who went out of his way to be nice to me when I came in here as a rookie. Believe me, I needed it. He was a fine fellow.” _______ I’d been wondering how he drowned. 40 years old, boat tipped over in a lake in the summer. With a friend. What happened? Well, the lake was at altitude, and chilly. And… The skiff capsized and, according to a witness, Vaughan and Wimer started swimming for shore. The men swam… Read more »

Hub Kid

9 years ago

Greenberg, Tiant, Minoso

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

I’ve been thinking about Bill Buckner. He’s on that study I did on post#37 of guys who didn’t walk or strikeout very much. He has a low WAR for a fella with 2700 hits. Got to wondering just How low. He tallied 183 hits for every unit of WAR. Nobody with that many hits accrued so little value. Here are the players with the most hits and at least 175 hits/WAR (and most of these guys were much worse than BB) 2715 … 14.8 … 183.4 … Buckner 2705 … 8.4 …. 322.0 … Doc Cramer 1931 … 8.9 …… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

I’m with Dave P @ 68 on this one.

I think Greenberg belongs but this time I’m going to use my vote to keep guys that I’m at least reasonably certain belong on the ballot around.

Gordon, Campanella, Minoso

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Ummm…Hartvig…you’re not allowed to agree with me and then vote for Minoso and Campanella. Try again! 🙂 🙂 🙂

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Vote: Greenberg, Murray, and let’s switch it up this time and toss Alomar a vote.

Luis Gomez

9 years ago

Alomar, Miñoso, Winfield.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

It’s a shame we keep voting in the best player every week.
Would love to see Greenberg vs Mize vs Arky.

And we spend a week talking about Hammerin Hank and two years discussing Craig Biggio.
______________

Vote:

Lou Boudreau
Kevin Brown
Dennis Eckeresley

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

And Doug, that rascal, cheated us out of the Mays-Mantle debate back in 1931.1 by using birthrate instead of last name. Yup, a good argument is hard to come by. On the bright side, we’re MUCH better than the BBWAA at electing the people who most obviously belong.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I wonder how we would do if we had the same basic parameters as the initial BBWAA. Starting off fresh with a full slate of candidates and not much but some ideas about statistics and how things should be valued. I’m guessing we would have a lot of the same issues, particularly with “split” votes early on, especially once the voters started voting only once every 3 years – no vote in 1940 and 1941, Hornsby elected in 1942, no vote in 1943 and 1944, then 1945 and 1946 came along and no one was elected. I know we make… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Right; I didn’t really mean the earliest days of voting. I have some sympathy for them, and I understand how (especially 19th century players) who were worse than we would hope would get elected. I totally get it. But WE did not struggle to elect Bert Blyleven; WE did not struggle (as much as they) to elect Tim Raines and Ron Santo, in a MUCH tougher system to get through. We have not elected Jim Rice (though I know there are those here who view Larry Walker as “our” Jim Rice). The overall quality of players in the COG will… Read more »

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

From your point of view the COG will have better players. The BBWAA elected Lou Brock in his first year. And Kirby Puckett. And Stargell. Rollie Fingers in his 2nd. Catfish in his 3rd. Those guys all sailed in pretty easily – so who’s right 🙂 Or is it just different preferences and guidelines – Puckett and Stargell and Catfish and Fingers and Brock are all almost certainly more “famous” than Blyleven, Raines, and Santo, and the guys the BBWAA elected aren’t bad baseball players (they are really, really good baseball players). I’d be okay if Larry Walker ended up… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Well, obviously I’m writing from my point of view – it’s the only one I have. Nonetheless, I think there are many objective ways we could measure whose selections were better. I’m willing to bet that, by just about any measure other than “who the BBWAA elected,” we’re going to come out on top. There are a host of reasons for that; still, I think we, generally speaking, do a better job of getting the “sure-thing” guys in on the first ballot, and taking the time necessary with the other guys. It’s not JUST opinion; Hunter and Puckett and Fingers… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

OK, Voomo at comment 81, I’ll take you up on that: You are starting an expansion franchise and you get one first draft pick (two other franchises are also starting and they will get the next two picks). Who do you choose: Greenberg, Mize or Vaughan?

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Well, knowing what they would eventually produce, if I had Mize I wouldn’t wait six years to call him up. But… using the numbers we have to work with, the answer is easy. I’d take Arky. Shortstop, ready to go after one year in the minors, at age 20. _______ First Year Shortstops, age 20 and under, highest WAR: 3.8 … Arky 3.6 … Elvis 3.2 … Renteria 2.3 … Reyes 1.6 … Starlin 1.5 … Yount 0.9 … Garry Templeton _______ 2nd Year Shortstops, age 21 and under, highest WAR: 7.0 … Arky 6.4 … Donie Bush 4.7 …… Read more »

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I’d take Vaughan for sure, simply because excellent offensive shortstops are a rarer commodity than big-slugging first basemen.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Although WAR already accounts for that, and Mize and Vaughan end up with almost identical WAR totals over careers of very similar length.

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

It doesn’t account for the three peak years Mize lost to WWII. In thses circumstances I’d probably take Vaughan over Mize too, depending on what other talent was available in the imaginary expansion draft, but overall Mize seems to me to be a batter career choice. The years Vaughan lost in his self-imposed retirement came after he’d pretty much moved from SS to 3B. and by age 36 he was done. Mize’s decline lasted longer and was much stronger as a critical role player for Casey’s five year run of championships.

bells

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

I can’t wait for the follow-up phase of the CoG, where we vote off the least good player every week for a few years until we only have the top ten players left for our ultra-inner-circle. That’s what birtelcom said was gonna happen, right?

Shard

9 years ago

Alomar, Gordon, Murray – Greenberg doesn’t need any help.

RonG

9 years ago

Campanella, Minoso, Greenberg

Stubby

9 years ago

Campy, Minoso, Van Lingle Mungo (if only for the great Jazz song from Dave Frishberg)

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Stubby

I believe Johnny Antonelli is the last player named in the Frishberg song who is still alive.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Eddie Basinski is still around.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Here’s a fun little interview with Eddie Basinski where he relates how he went from amateur ball straight to the big leagues. Except for the mention that Reds pitcher Bob Katz had pitched a no-hitter (?) the rest of the account of his debut game is bang on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjQlrceN_bA

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

In the ML there were Johnny Antonelli and John Antonelli, per BR. There may be a question as to which one the song is referring to. John is dead and Johnny is alive. The song’s lyrics mention John.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

SABR published a book entitled “Van Lingle Mungo: The Man, The Song, The Players”, which contains short biographies of all the players mentioned in the song, as well as of Frishberg himself. In it, Frishberg said he meant John the infielder, not Johnny the pitcher.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Thanks for all the interesting corrections to my comment @ 112!

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Stubby

I see that, other than Phil Douglas’s chaotic final season, Mungo’s 121 ERA+ in 1945 is the best qualifying score among Giant pitchers in the final season of a career (7th best overall in the live ball era).

Mungo continued to play in 1946 and 1947 back home in Carolina with the D-level Clinton Blues of the Tobacco State League, mostly in the field with a .393 BA for those two seasons.

T-Bone

9 years ago

Reuschel, Tiant, Minoso

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to T-Bone

Unusual level of early support for Minoso this round. Currently in second place in the voting, appearing on more than 25% of the ballots.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

The continued support of Minoso while Larry Doby languishes in “Redemption Hell” is…troubling, unsettling, bizarre. Not sure which. Maybe all of the above. Doby has the same WAR, and a higher WAA in a much shorter career. Doby was a much more historically significant player. He was also a key member of two World Series teams (vs. 0 for Minoso). I don’t really think that Doby belongs in the COG though you could make a case for him. Minoso, I just don’t get it. I don’t even see him as being anywhere close to the COG. I’d say there are… Read more »

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to David P

Not sure about a *much* shorter career. Basically, it’s 10 seasons as a regular for Doby and 11 for Minoso, with about a season’s worth of PAs for each outside of that prime period. Each had 9 seasons with 3.5 WAR and 6 seasons with 3.0 WAA. Their oWAR is virtually identical at 47.6 and 47.8, as is their overall WAR at 49.5 and 50.1. Minoso has twice the Rfield (26 to 13) but Doby makes up for it in Rdp at 26 to 1, and also loses a lot less (63 Runs less, about 6 WAR) in Rpos. Seems… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Well Minoso does have 22.4% more career PAs than Doby. So in that sense I’d say his career was a lot longer (and Doby’s a lot shorter).

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

True enough. But, should Minoso’s durability relative to Doby (thus driving up Minoso’s PAs) be a negative in evaluating him?

Sure, Doby has better per PA results, but only slightly better per Season results. And, when Doby wasn’t in the lineup (and Minoso was), my hunch is Minoso’s teams were getting the better of that matchup.

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Minoso and Doby played for the same team in 1949 (Cleveland), 1951 (CLE), 1956 (White Sox), 1957 (Sox), and 1958 (CLE).

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Perhaps Doug though Doby was primarily a centerfielder, a position where players tend to get hurt a lot. How much should we hold that against him?

BTW, both Doby (second and short) and Minoso (third) were infielders before being signed by Cleveland. They were both converted to the OF because Cleveland was already set at those positions.

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

For what it’s worth, my recollection is that Minoso was regarded as the third best player in the AL after Williams and Mantle in the 1950s, certainly the player most feared after them to do some kind of damage with his bat—and a devastating fielder. He had a long body and long arms but short legs, and like Jackie Robinson he seemed to make things happen at the plate, on base, and in the field. Doby was a presence, yes, but an adequate fielder at best, feared only when he had a bat in his hands—a slugger basically, whereas Minoso… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Why is Doby a HOFer? As I’m sure you know, he was the first African-American in the AL. Jackie Robinson gets all the credit for breaking the color barrier but he only played in the NL ballparks. Doby is the one who had to “inaugurate” the AL ballparks. And he did so not long after Robinson, dealing with all the same abuse that Robinson did. And from all reports, he handled it with class and dignity, just like Robinson. And unlike Robinson, who got a year of “prep” by playing in the minors, Doby went straight from the Negro Leagues… Read more »

paget

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

@147, nsb, I’m curious about what your recollection tells you about how fans generally ranked the best players of the ’50s in the AL. I would have thought Berra – especially as a power-hitting catcher – would have been perceived as better than Minoso. At the very least we have to say that he was perceived as more “valuable” (whatever that precisely means) given his three MVPs that decade. It’s probably worth noting, too, that Berra sailed into the COG whereas Minoso might not ever make it. Not to question your point of view at all here. I wasn’t around… Read more »

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

David P: You answer my question exactly. Doby is a HOFer because of what he was, not what he did, which was very good for several years but not great. In the year for which he’s most remembered, his WAR was 5.7, Minoso’s was 8.3. This is not to say that I think Minnie belongs in the HOF ahead of Doby. I used to, but now that his date of birth has been put back by six or seven years, his accomplishments seem less impressive. paget: Yogi, for better or worse, was regarded as a player apart, I think, because… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

@157 nsb: As a lifelong Yankees fan the two opposing players I feared the most were Ted Williams and Larry Doby. From my view point Doby made Al Rosen and Luke Easter look like easy outs. Well, I am exaggerating a bit. Pitching wise the ones I feared were Lemon, Pierce and Frank Lary. I agree with you about Berra. His size, looks, mannerisms and nickname made him unique, not to mention that he was far and away the best catcher in the AL and his only competition from the NL was Campanella. With Yogi behind the plate he gave… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

NSB – I think that’s a bit unfair. In Doby’s case, I don’t think you can separate who he was with what he did. Had he broken the AL color barrier but been an average or worse player, would he be in the HOF? I highly doubt it. BTW, Doby led the AL in WAR in the 5 year periods of 1949-1953 and 1950-1954. Granted he’d be second if not for Williams being in the Korean WAR. Either way, there aren’t many players who can claim they were one of the two best players in their league in a 5… Read more »

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Minoso was generally regarded as the first dark-skinned player for the White Sox.

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

David P: I don’t want to prolong this—you like Doby better, I like Minoso better—but as for Doby’s record being HOF worthy on its own, it’s just a stretch for me to believe it. B-ref’s comparable players to Doby are J. D, Drew, Dolph Camilli, Swish Nicholson, and the like. At least Minoso has a close comp to a certified HOFer, Enos Slaughter, even if Slaughter was borderline and slipped in after much lobbying to the VC. The five year stretch thing is a decent point, but Al Rosen’s WAR was quite close to Doby’s for those years—plus he had… Read more »

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Richard C:

Naming Frank Lary as a feared pitcher really does betray your New York-centric world view. Lary was 28-13 against the Yankees—truly remarkable—and 100-103 against everyone else.

As you know, I was a Yankee fan out in the boonies, but maybe I got to see things from a broader perspective.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

NSB – Perhaps I wasn’t clear. For me, Doby’s a HOFer because of his quality play AND breaking the color line. And again, I fully support Minoso for the HOF. I think it’s a travesty that the VC didn’t put him in last time. I sadly think he’s going to be another Ron Santo, a guy who gets in after he dies. Of course my original point had to do with the COG, which is obviously a more select group. I don’t see Minoso as even being close to that level. Doby really isn’t either but I could see a… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I’d say Minoso and Doby are near equals. The small WAA advantage Doby has almost disappears when you exclude their negative-WAA seasons. As for Doby having fewer PAs, I’m kind of with Doug on that one. Given the fact that they played a similar number of seasons, Doby’s advantage in WAR as a rate stat is offset by Minoso’s more impressive durability. We’ve probably been underrating durability on these boards a bit, what with all the impressive short-career guys on the ballot recently–Gordon, Boudreau, Minoso, even Greenberg. I’m just as guilty as anyone as I have heartily championed Lou for… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to David P

I also have Doby ahead of Minoso. Monte Irvin as well.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Due to birtelcom’s post above @113, I realized that maybe some folks would like to see how everyone’s doing. Here ya go, through 34 ballots cast (and T-Bone’s vote @108): 24 (70.59%) – Hank Greenberg 9 (26.47%) – Minnie Minoso 8 (23.53%) – Joe Medwick 7 (20.59%) – Kevin Brown, Dennis Eckersley, Joe Gordon 6 (17.65%) – Eddie Murray 5 (14.71%) – Roberto Alomar, Whitey Ford, Luis Tiant 4 (11.76%) – Lou Boudreau, Rick Reuschel, Dave Winfield 3 (8.82%) – Roy Campanella, Harmon Killebrew 1 (2.94%) – Van Mungo Another “favorite son” vote; this round, it’s Van Mungo. Birtelcom, I… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Perhaps my comment on the possible demise of the “favorite son” was in part intended as a gentle reminder that the option exists. In which case, it was perhaps a success

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Too true!

I was personally thinking that the demise of the “favorite son” had more to do with the fact that we really went through a stretch there for a while where we (the electorate) were trying REALLY hard to build up some cushion for some of the holdovers. I think there were a few rounds in which it seemed there weren’t enough votes to go around.

donburgh

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I think the demise of the “favorite son” is simply that we’ve gotten to the point that the new candidates played too long ago for most of us to have seen them play and have a close emotional attachment.

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Let’s get Minnie a round of cushion. Minoso, Alomar, Greenberg

J.R.

9 years ago

Whitey Ford, Hank Greenberg, Joe Medwick

billh

9 years ago

Murray, Alomar, Winfield

opal611

9 years ago

For the 1911 election, I’m voting for:
-Roberto Alomar
-Eddie Murray
-Dave Winfield

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Eckersley
-Killebrew
-Ford
-Brown
-Boudreau
-Gordon
-Reuschel
-Tiant
-Greenberg
-Medwick

Dave Humbert

9 years ago

Help for some worthy holdovers:

Reuschel, Tiant, Alomar

Andy

9 years ago

Hank Greenberg, Kevin Brown, Lou Boudreau

Stephen

9 years ago

Greenberg, Ford, Killebrew

--bill

9 years ago

Greenberg, Tiant, and McCormick.

One of the first baseball books I bought with my allowance as a kid was “Baseball when the Grass was Real” by Honig. I liked the account of Frank McCormick.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to --bill

@137/bill;

I think that was his follow-up book to “The Glory Of Their Times”, perhaps my favorite baseball book ever. ‘…Grass Was Real’ is also excellent.