Circle of Greats 1912 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 74th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round adds players born in 1912 to the list of eligible candidates. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1912-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, October 19, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Friday, October 17.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1912 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1912 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1912 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Lou Boudreau (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Joe Gordon  (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1912, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Augie Galan
Ray Mueller
Birdie Tebbetts
Arky Vaughan
Harlond Clift
Babe Dahlgren
Don Gutteridge
Chet Laabs
Terry Moore
Dick Siebert
Hal Trosky
Vince DiMaggio
Cookie Lavagetto

Pitchers (born in 1912, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Clyde Shoun

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aweb
aweb
9 years ago

Arky Vaughan
Kevin Brown
Lou Boudreau

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Arky Vaughan, Whitey Ford and Harlond Clift, the old Brownie who, in an abbreviated career, was Eddie Mathews before Eddie Mathews.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

This year’s tidbits. – Augie Galan was the first live ball era player with 2500 PA for both the Cubs and Dodgers. Who is the only player since to do the same? – Birdie Tebbetts is the only player to catch 300 games for both the Tigers and Red Sox. Who are the only other players to catch 100 games for both of those franchises? – Clyde Shoun’s 19 starts and 24 decisions in 1940 were then the most by an NL pitcher starting less than 40% of his games. The former mark remains the Cardinal record today, while the… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Some addtitonal tidbits. Augie Galan in 1935 became the first player to participate in 150+ games and not hit into a DP. Since then only Craig Biggio in 1997 and Dick McAuliffe in 1968 have matched that. He was also the first NLer to hit home runs left-handed and right-handed in the same game. In the 1936 All-Star game won by the NL 4-3 at Braves Field he hit a disputed HR. The ball hit the right field foul pole and deflected into the stands on the foul side of the field. It was ruled a HR but the ALers… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago

Trosky is the only person to drive in 140+ runs and not make the All-Star Team (post 1933 obviously). And he did it twice!

Interestingly, the #3 and #4 players on the list both did it in 1936, the same year Trotsky drove in 162 runs. Zeke Bonura drove in 138 runs for the White Sox and Moose Solters drove in 134 for the Browns (while compiling a -11 Rbat no less!).

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

In addition to the difficulty of competing with Gehrig and Foxx, Trosky needed to be a better 1st half performer: 1934 (HR/RBI/AVG/OBP/SLG) 16/58/.309/.368/.574 19/84/.349/.407/.621 Gehrig and Foxx (yes, I realize Foxx started at 3B for the AL in the 1934 AS game – but he’s still Trosky’s competition), 1st half, 1934: 24/91/.367/.456/.706 26/67/.348/.461/.699 In 1936, Trosky 1st half/2nd half: 20/71/.325/.368/.630 22/92/.361/.395/.657 (There’s an RBI discrepancy between his main page, 162, and his splits page, 163.) Gehrig and Foxx, 1st half, 1936: 20/61/.389/.494/.708 22/76/.337/.452/.625 He seemed closer to Gehrig and Foxx in 1936 than in 1934, and if he had reversed… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug: For the Hal Trosky question, does it cover every year from 1901 to 2014?

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Yes, back to 1901.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Is it the Cubs or the A’s?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

It’s the Cubs.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Cubs is right.

Last Chicago first baseman to play the entire season was Cap Anson in 1892.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Chet Laabs question: Without checking Barry, Henry, the Babe, Willie, or Kid Griffey … I’m guessing Sosa (-2.6 WAA in 1989-1990), with his 609 HRs, is the answer to the question.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Sammy’s the one.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Augie Galan question: Bill Buckner. Prior to Galan a guy named Jimmy Sheckard did it.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

It is Buckner. He came within half a season of also having 2500 PA with the Red Sox.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago

I was going to guess Buckner but I did not get here in time.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Vince DiMaggio, second part: I believe that the man they call “Jeter” has the most HRs (260) of anyone who played in 2014 and a SO/HR rate of more than 6.5 (Jeter has 1840 Ks and 260 HRs, for a ratio of 7.08). All of the really big strikeout guys (like Dunn or Carlos Pena or Howard, and, even though he doesn’t have as many HRs as Jeter, Mark Reynolds) have too many HRs.

Doug’s avoidance of the word “active” clued me in a bit there, because, in case someone didn’t hear, Jeter is no longer active.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

I suppose I should say the phrasing of the question rather than his avoidance of the word “active” because he did use active.

I think that Eddie Yost is the pre-expansion player with more career HRs than Vince DiMaggio and SO/HR that is greater than 6.5, though it takes his 1961-1962 seasons to get him over the 6.5 threshold (3 HRs, 80 Ks in those 2 seasons).

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

69 Ks for Yost in 1961-1962, not 80 (added up his walk total).

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Jeter is right, but not Yost.

The player I’m looking for played his entire career prior to 1961.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Well then it must be that strikeout machine who goes by Pee Wee with his 126 HRs.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Reese is right.

Out-homered and out-K’ed Vince, albeit in 5000 more PA.

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

The answer to the Jim Tobin question is not Jimmy Lavender, although he came close. I just wanted to make this note:

Lavender was the 10th Cub to reach 50 wins in the modern era, and the first with a W% below .594. He went 57-68 (.456) with the Cubs from 1912-16. Bad timing.

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

The answer to the Tobin question is Larry Jackson, who went 14-21, 15-15, 13-15, and 13-17 his final four years with the Cubs/Phils.

Mike L
Mike L
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

DiMaggio brothers K/PA ratio: Vince, 19.3/ Dom 8.8/ Joe 4.8
Alou brothers K/PA ratio: Felipe, 8.9/ Matty, 6.1/Jesus, 5.8

KalineCountry Ron
KalineCountry Ron
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

One of the Catchers with the Tigers and Red Sox with 100+ games behind the plate is Matt Batts.
Gene Desautels missed with the Tigers, over 100 with the sox.
I thought of Lou Berberet but he didn’t qualify in his 1 year with the sox.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Batts is one of the catchers.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Hal Wagner is also one.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Babe Dahlgren question. For the first player with XBH for his first three hits I’ll try George Davis in the 1906 WS.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Not quite, Richard.

Right WS, but wrong George.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

In that case how about George Rohe?

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Correct.

George Rohe hit his 3rd consecutive XBH in game 5 of tha 1906 WS. Teammate George Davis followed suit in game 6.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I’m gonna go ahead and assume the answer to the Dick Siebert question is Dave Kingman. Or did someone have more than 35?

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

It is Kingman.

Kingman is the only player to close a career with 3 consecutive 30 HR/90 RBI seasons. Albert Belle is the only other player to end a career with two such seasons.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

The end of Kingman’s career after 1986 bmay be partially due to collusion; also partially due to his being able to do nothing more than hit HR’s, and nothing else, by this point.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

He played in ’87.
Giants’ AAA.

20 games
.203 .342 .356 .698

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

I would attribute the end of Kingman’s career to 1) not being very good, and 2) being a complete a-hole, including repeatedly harassing a female reporter who was assigned to cover the team.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Pete Rose, with no business scoring from 1st.
And Bochy takes one in the mush:

http://youtu.be/vFwMDBceczc?t=3m41s

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Voomo’s link led me to this, the longest sustained baseball argument I have ever seen. Ron Cey hits a pretty obviously foul ball that gets called for a home run. The Reds go nuts, the umps reverse the call, and bedlam ensues. I am only 12 minutes through this 33-minute video. The entire coaching staff of the ’84 Cubs gets involved. Don Zimmer (RIP) has three or four near-cardiac events. He has to take several breaks to keep from hyperventilating. Mel Hall ends up lifting his manager Jim Frey toward the dugout. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAhzFOBKrE8 I have no memory of this one,… Read more »

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Holy crap. A brawl breaks out at the 20-minute mark, and down goes Zim!!!

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Voomo @102 — Great find on that Rose/Bochy clip. Which led me to learn … That was Bochy’s only postseason appearance behind the plate, totaling 3 innings. He came in for the top of the 8th, replacing the legendary Luis Pujols, as the Astros looked to close out a 2-0 lead and advance to the World Series. Welcome to the ballgame, Bruce. Vern Ruhle gave up three straight hits, a run scoring on Jeffrey Leonard’s late throw to the plate. Then Schmidt’s grounder off Dave Smith eludes Joe Morgan and ties the game. Joe Sambito comes in to whiff Bake… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

It sounded like Don Drysdale on the Phillies-Astros broadcast booth.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Remaining quiz answer.

Cookie Lavagetto question: other player to get only hit in a post-season win – Reggie Jackson in game 4 of the 1974 ALCS. Reggie’s 7th inning double drove in Sal Bando for the As second run in a series clinching 2-1 win over the Orioles (Oakland’s first run was scored in the 5th inning via 4 consecutive two-out walks)

Aaron
Aaron
9 years ago

Vaughan, Brown, Killebrew

David P
David P
9 years ago

Vaughan, Tiant, Murray.

Darien
9 years ago

Vaughan, Killebrew, and Eckersley

Darien
9 years ago

Though my Hall of Names ballot could hardly be other than Cookie Lavagetto, Birdie Tebbetts, and Chet Laabs (where all the good Chets are made).

Darien
9 years ago
Reply to  Darien

All-snack team:

P Doughnut Bill Carrick
C Cracker Schalk
1B Napoleon Lajoie
2B Cookie Lavagetto
3B Pie Traynor
SS Candy LaChance
LF Cookie Rojas
CF Felix Pie
RF Babe Ruth

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Darien

DH Reggie Jackson (If I played in New York, they’d name a candy bar after me.) — well, not exactly a bar…

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Darien

Cookie Rojas demands a recount!

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Well, sorry, I can’t read apparently. There he is spot-starting in left.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

So does Peanuts Lowrey.

Darien
9 years ago

Tell you what. He can have an invite to spring training next year, where he can earn his way on to the team.

JasonZ
9 years ago

The recent Columbus Day Holiday put spices on
my mind.

And I just feel that sometimes a little Pepper Martin to go with ones Pie Traynor might be right on schedule.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Darien

Candy Maldonado as DH or reserve outfielder.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Also Taffy Wright, who will just miss eligibility for the 1911 ballot

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Arky Vaughan
Kevin Brown
Joe Gordon

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Army
Killebrew
Kevin brown

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Andy

I’m guessing we’re going to be having the “Army” autocorrect issue all round; I voted on my phone this morning, and it tried to do this to me. I caught it, but I’m assuming that this is going to continue to be an issue. Argh… yes, phone. Sometimes, I type stuff wrong; but sometimes, I know EXACTLY what I want there!

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I wonder if Arky’s nickname would be “Army” were he playing today, for that very reason. What current players might have such autocorrect nicknames, and what would they be?

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

I think this question deserves its own thread.

I put an uncapatalized pujols into my word processor ; it suggested:

Jolson

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Arky Vaughan, Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Killebrew, Vaughan, Campanella

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago

Arky Vaughn
Kevin Brown
Rick Reuschel

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
9 years ago

Gordon, Boudreau, Eck.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago

Arky Vaughan, Eddie Murray, Kevin Brown

bells
bells
9 years ago

Here’s the vote according to my statistical methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ – adding the wins above average players (rather than replacement)… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

How to measure Greatness with a number? I try with this: _____________ Wins Above Average, expressed as a rate stat, by dividing it into Plate Appearances (PaWaa): 163.3 … (7722) Arky Vaughan 166.4 … (7024) Lou Boudreau 176.2 … (6537) Joe Gordon 287.8 … (7712) Minnie Minoso 306.7 … (4815) Roy Campanella 322.0 …(10400) Rob Alomar 350.0 … (9833) Harmon Killebrew 393.5 … (7005) Augie Galan 407.9 … (6894) Harlond Clift 474.8 …(12817) Eddie Murray 521.4 …(12358) Dave! Winfield _________________________ This stat in its raw form favors the career that ended early and abruptly (Gordon, Boudreau, Arky) to the player… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Innings Pitched per Win Above Average
IpWaa:

80.3 …. (3256) Brown
93.1 …. (3548) Reuschel
101.0 … (3486) Tiant
107.4 … (3286) Eckersley
109.3 … (3170) Ford

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Hal Trotsky and poorly valued thumping…

There have been 19 seasons of 160+ RBI
The 5 lowest WAR totals:

7.6 … Foxx
7.4 … Hack
7.3 … Manny
6.5 … Chuck
4.2 … Trotsky
_______________

There have been 29 seasons of 400+ Total Bases.
The 5 lowest WAR totals:

6.9 … Babe (Herman)
6.6 … Chuck
6.4 … Sammy
5.1 … Chuck
4.2 … Trotsky
_______________

To put this in perspective, according to WAR, Trotsky in 1936 was worth less than Marcell Ozuna in 2014

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ozunama01.shtml#batting_standard::none

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

And to put it in 1936 perspective, here is the MVP voting that season.
Some thwacking of the ball…

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1936.shtml#AL_MVP_voting::none

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

In case there is any wonder as to whether or not Trosky was a horrible defensive player and that is bringing down his WAR, he has 38.3 Rbat in his 1936 season. The next lowest Rbat total for anyone with more than 160 RBI is 52.2 by Sam Thompson in 1887 (who I think misses Voomo’s list due to a 1901 cutoff date), though in only 127 games. Manny is the next lowest in 1999 with 58.7. Granted if we drop the threshold to 150 RBI Trosky is not alone any more – JuanGone had 157 RBI in 1998 and… Read more »

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Trotsky’s 36 walks are also contributing to his lower Rbat/WAR for 1936. That’s the lowest BB total for a 160-ribbies guy. Al Simmons (39 BB in 1930) is the only other 160-ribbies guy with fewer than 50 walks.

Trotsky’s 36 walks are also the lowest total for a 400-TB player.

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I wonder if Trotsky didn’t get any support in the HOF voting because it was the era of McCarthyism and they found his communist views even less valuable than his Rbat. Oh wait, his name is Trosky, not Trotsky? Hmm, maybe it was just because he wasn’t a very good ball player.

Don’t mean to be too (ice)picky about the spelling of his name though… sorry, too soon for that joke?

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

bells: yeah, I screwed up his name. I realized it a few minutes before your comment.

Ironically, though, you’re one of six people thus far to misspell Arky’s last name. 🙂

Eddie Mathews got 10 separate Matthews votes the year he won, so Vaughan has a shot to ecplise that mark.

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

Actually his birth last name was “Trojovsky” and according to his SABR bio that’s how he signed his first contract with Cleveland.

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

What might be an all-time misspelled name team? We can have Vaughan and Trosky on there for sure, Steib (Stieb?) would be one of the pitchers, and I suppose some hard-to-spell guys like Yaz or Kluszewski would be automatic ins… that’s just a quick top of my head. Others? And what if they played the all-autocorrect team?

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

Personally I can never remember how to spell “Buehrle”, but maybe that’s just me.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

@141

Here’s a few, hope I spelled them right.. Palmeiro, Lajoie, Trammell, Heilmann, Galarraga, Schoendienst, Cavarretta and Pierzynski.

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

I’ve alwyas struggled with whether or not it’s Rob Nenn or Robb Nen. Honestly…I just guessed wrong. It’s the two b’s in the first name that gets me.

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

Apparently the word ‘always’ is a bit of a problem also.

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

bells: I’m always surprised at how often I see McGwire misspelled (just go to the bottom of his b-ref page to see all the alternatives they accept).

I’m actually fine with Yastrzemski (remember that the nickname is misleading) and Kluszewski; it’s Mazeroski and the baffling lack of a “w” that always trips me up.

Horwich – The trick I use with Buehrle is to remember that the “h” comes out of nowhere and to trust that it comes earlier than seems to make sense. So “B-U-E-there’s no way the H can go here so I guess it must-H-R-L-E”.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

@RJ, I was going to mention McGwire, too! It astounds me how in EVERY article I’ve ever seen online about Mark McGwire, there will be a comments section; and in the comments section, usually within the first two-three posts, someone will have written “Maguire,” or “MacGuire,” or “MaGwire,” or “MacGwire” or some other nonsense. I always think, “But it’s RIGHT THERE in the article! Just scroll up like two inches!” Alas, internet comments (other than the ones in this community) will one day be the death of me.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

For some reason, I struggle every time with Maddux, Maduxx, or Camminiti, Caminniti, Caminitti.

I checked… it´s “Caminiti” (insert embarrassed emoticon here).

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

and then there was Garry Maddox.

paget
paget
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

bells @141,
All-time misspelled team? Can’t believe no one thought to mention Cal Ripken, whose name routinely (even here!) gets spelled Ripkin.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

A lot of people don’t realize that the 1930s were almost as hot as the 90s and early 2000s for run scoring and hitting stats in general. He was in a hitters park in one of the most offense heavy years in the game, so it’s a not a huge surprise. His context is closer to c. 2000 coors than to a typical season. It’s what amuses me so much about one side of the debate about Walker and Helton. People want to devalue anything done in the most bat heavy context since ’93, but nobody *ever* suggests anything similar… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Yes. This. All of this.

Except that, sometimes, the 1930s were MORE extreme than the late-90s and early-2000s. The 1930 NL scoring context was over 5.6 R/T/G, which is more than any other situation. The Baker Bowl in 1930 was (not quite, but ALMOST) Coors in 2000.

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago

I have to disagree a little with your comment here.

Excepting 1930, AL teams averaged from half a run to a full run more per game than NL teams. Most of the ‘heat’ you’re generalizing about took place in the junior circuit.

BryanM
BryanM
9 years ago

Arky Vaughn , Kevin Brown, Robbie Alomar

BryanM
BryanM
9 years ago

Arky Vaughn , Kevin Brown, Robbie Alomar

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
9 years ago

Ford, Vaughn, Campanella.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago

again, no objection to Vaughn.

Eddie C. Murray (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/murraed02.shtml rather than http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/murraedd01.htm )

Minnie O. Minoso

Harmon C. Killebrew

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
9 years ago

Killebrew, Eckersley, and Boudreau

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Vaughn, Tiant, Eck

David W
David W
9 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

Campanella, Winfield, Alomar.

BryanM
BryanM
9 years ago

Sorry for duplicate vote — Unreliable internet and fat thumbs are a bad combo

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago

Alomar, Miñoso, Winfield.

T-Bone
T-Bone
9 years ago

Reuschel, Tiant, Minoso

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Vaughan, Kevin Brown, Boudreau

koma
koma
9 years ago

Whitey Ford, Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley

Steve
Steve
9 years ago

Whitey Ford; Harmon Killebrew; Roy Campanella

Bix
Bix
9 years ago

Vaughan, Campanella, Eckersley

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
9 years ago

Vaughn, Boudreau, Brown

Brent
Brent
9 years ago

Vaughan, Eck, Minoso

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

Gordon, Vaughan, Winfield

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

I was going to write a comment about the number of outstanding first baseman playing during the first few years of Trosky’s career but it was late & I couldn’t make it come out like I wanted & now I don’t have time.

I also wanted to point out that Trosky was also born and grew up in the same small town as his future teammate Bob Feller- Norway, IA.

Vaughan, Gordon, Campanella

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig – Feller’s not from Norway, IA. He’s from Van Meter, 2 hours away.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

His nickname was “The Heater from Van Meter”.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

I was so certain that Feller was from Norway I didn’t even bother to check on B-R. Turns out it was Mike Boddiker (not in Feller’s class, to be sure, but still a 20 game winner in the majors) as well as Bruce Kimm.

Still pretty impressive for a town of 500 people.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Quick voting update, through Hartvig @83: 21 – Arky Vaughan 10 – Kevin Brown 8 – Harmon Killebrew 7 – Dennis Eckersley 6 – Roy Campanella 5 – Lou Boudreau 4 – Whitey Ford, Joe Gordon, Minnie Minoso, Rick Reuschel, Luis Tiant 3 – Roberto Alomar, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield 1 -Harlond Clift Steven single-handedly decided to prove to birtelcom that the “favorite son” vote is alive and well with his vote for Clift. Eckersley has nearly as much support ALREADY as he got all last round. At this point, Vaughan has election sewn up, barring some pretty epic movement… Read more »

Steven
Steven
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I sometimes just vote remembering what my dad and uncles told me about the abilities of players they saw years ago. They were among the few who attended St. Louis Browns games in the 1930s. This “favorite son” vote was a toss-up between Clift and Terry Moore,first of the truly great defensive Cardinal center-fielders.

Steven
Steven
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Well, they were on opposite sides of the family, and not yet in-law related. Dad said he did meet Rogers Hornsby once, and that he lived up to his gruff reputation. That was during Hornsby’s first tenure as Browns’ manager.

JasonZ
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Curiosity caused this:

The St. Louis Browns page for 1935 at Bref shows attendance figures for 13 homes dates all season.

The rest are blank.

The recorded figures are obviously estimates as all
numbers are rounded to the hundreds.

The figures range from 300-9,000 for the “season high”, on the first Sunday of the season against the Chisox.

Clearly most days the numbers must have been comparable to a poorly attended Bar Mitzvah, and therefore far to embarrassing to report.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Vaughan, Clift, Trosky

Stephen
Stephen
9 years ago

Vaughan, Ford, Killebrew

brp
brp
9 years ago

Vaughan
Winfield
Murray

Abbott
Abbott
9 years ago

Vaughan, Killebrew, Murray

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Ford, Vaughan, Killebrew

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Ford, Alomar, Minoso

BillH
BillH
9 years ago

Alomar, Winfield, Murray

J.R.
J.R.
9 years ago

Vaughan, Ford, Killebrew

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Amazing! I guess this means that all that speculation we did a couple rounds ago about which teams had the most inductees is now rendered a bit moot.

I strongly doubt that anyone’s going to be topping the 1965 Giants’ five inductees anytime soon (Mays, Marichal, McCovey, Perry, Spahn). Perhaps, someday, the 2002 Braves (Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, C. Jones, A. Jones, Sheffield) could do it?

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Geez, that ’65 NL pennant race is fascinating: 1) The Giants had two players (Mays and Marichal) with 10+ WAR but they failed to win the pennant. Wonder if any other team has done that? 2) The Giants’ lineup is one the top heaviest I’ve ever seen with Mays and McCovey having monster seasons (plus decent contributions from a few others). Meanwhile the DP combination of Lanier and Schofield had a COMBINED OPS+ of 99!!! 3) The Dodgers won the pennant despite being led by Lou Johnson and Jim Lefebvre with 12 home runs and Ron Fairly with 70 RBIs.… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

The 1903 Giants had McGinnity and Mathewson each with 10+ WAR (pitching and batting combined), but failed to win the pennant.

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

@ David (114),
Another 1965 gem: One of the Dodgers’ more productive hitters was Don Drysdale (140 OPS+ in 138 PA).

Steven
Steven
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

The Braves-in their last season in Milwaukee-had a 24-game winner in Tony Cloninger, and (rare for that era) six players with 20+ home runs: Hank Aaron, Eddie Mathews, Joe Torre, Mack Jones, Felipe Alou and Gene Oliver. The Braves faded in the last few weeks and finished fifth. After Marichal, the pitching for the Giants was rather thin, although Frank Linzy had a good year out of the bullpen. They even used Matty Alou on the mound. Jim O’Toole’s poor year doomed the Reds. Of course, they solved that problem in the off-season by obtaining Milt Pappas for a veteran… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

@114;

Another oddity about the 1965 NL was that while it was a pitcher’s era and scoring was down (4.03 R/G), the Run Scored leader (Tommy Harper) had 126 and the RBI leader had 130 (Deron Johnson), both totals the most in the NL till 1970.

If you expand this from ‘1965 NL’ to ‘1965 MLB’, another oddity is that both the AL and NL Runs Scored leaders had 126 runs. Neither of them came close to those totals again.

JasonZ
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

On the morning of September 16, 1965 the Giants awoke
to find themselves solidly in first place.

4.5 games ahead of the Reds and Dodgers.

From this point forward the Dodgers went
14-1.

The Dodgers pitching allowed 17 runs during those last
15 pressure packed games.

Remarkable.

Pitching won the 1965 NL Pennant.

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I knew you’d be all over this Doc! Thanks to birtelcom for providing another source of COG fun. There’s a lot of great info in there. I wonder if anyone could, without looking, identify the players with:

– The only non-Brett season for the Royals
– The two non-Reggie, non-Rickey Oakland A’s seasons between ’68 and ’98
– The two player-seasons for the Marlins

There are nine seasons listed for Toronto by five players: all were in their age-34 seasons or above.

brp
brp
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Tim Raines and Mike Piazza played for the Marlins.

Was thinking Killebrew for the Royals but we haven’t elected him yet. I took a guess at the Royals question and was right (though this only counts consulting the list of inductees doesn’t count as “looking”).

Will leave other answers out… don’t want to hog all the fun.

Also thanks to Birtelcom for the spreadsheet, interesting stuff.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  brp

I would never have guessed the Royals answer- it’s probably going to take someone who was either a big fan of the player or the Royals or who followed baseball really closely that summer…

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  brp

Piazza hit a triple for the Marlins during the week between trades. Off the wall by Ron Gant of the Cardinals. That trade was delayed because one of the players leaving Florida was negotiating his contract to cover California state income tax.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Got Willie McCovey right away, as one of the A’s (without checking, so I don’t feel bad posting it here). The other one… wow. I had to look that up. Wouldn’t have gotten it. And the Royal? Wow. I had NO IDEA. I’ve looked at that guy’s stats a thousand times, and it’s never jumped out to me (although McCovey’s season with the A’s obviously did enough that I would remember it). Huh. And yes, RJ, I am THAT predictable! OF COURSE I would love this. I just love that you know my tics and interests well enough to know… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Once I looked at the list of COG membership I got the other Royal pretty easily. Part process of elimination, part searching through 1984 Topps cards as a kid.

As for the other A, I immediately thought Billy Williams (1976 Topps), then realized he’s not in the COG. But then Topps cards come through again … 1985 Topps.

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Wow, I figured as a fairly young baseball fan I could guess the 5 Jays (even though it wasn’t a question) and got 3 immediately (Clemens, Molitor and Rickey), remembered the 4th with some looking at inductees (Thomas), and had NO clue the 5th ever played for the Jays.

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

The one that got me was Tom Seaver pitching for the Red Sox. I don’t remember that at all! Nor do I remember him going back to the Mets before his White Sox tour.

And then there’s how he got to the White Sox. From his SABR bio:

“The Chicago White Sox lost pitcher Dennis Lamp to the Toronto Blue Jays as a free agent and were eligible to take an unprotected player from any other club as compensation. On January 20, 1984, they selected Seaver.”

Really? I definitely don’t remember teams being allowed to do that!

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

@David Hruska 158 – Seaver actually had a critical subplot for the 1986 Red Sox. They got him in a trade at the deadline and he was an above average #4 starter for them, solidifying the rotation. He got injured in late September which promoted (the very below average)Al Nipper into the playoff rotation. In the WS the Sox were up 2 games to 1 which brought Nipper into play and the series was tied up. If Seaver pitched that game, maybe, just maybe things would have worked out differently. Nipper actually pitched ok in that game (6 7 3… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

Dennis Lamp led the 1983 White Sox with 15 saves. I could look up how many he games he started that year — 5 (most outside the five-man rotation).

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

My eye was drawn to some of the long lists for certain teams, and to a particular transition. Boston maintained a streak of unbroken years with at least one COG player when Ted Williams retired just the year before Yaz came up. So the Red Sox had a streak of 51 years with at least one COG inductee on their team. I looked to see if that was the longest such streak. Turns out it was close, but not quite. Unless you give war credit for Williams, in which case it’s 58 years and is the longest. 🙂 Cincinatti came… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Pre-congratulations to Arky.
__________

Vote:

Lou Boudreau
Kevin Brown
Dennis Eckersley

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Vaughan 474
Brown 43.3
Boudreau 42.3
Reuschel 40.6
Tiant 37.5
Gordon 37.1
Alomar 37.1
Eckersley 34.3
Murray 33.7
Killebrew 33.0
Winfield 31.1
Minoso 30.6
Ford 29.3
Galan 20.1
Campanella 19.2
Clift 18.8

Vaughan, Brown, Boudreau

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

is there a decimal point missing?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

Either that or Vaughan is the greatest player in the history of the game!

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Good catch, OBS. Perhaps Arky should get his own circle.

Jeff
Jeff
9 years ago

Eckersley, Ford, Winfield

Shard
Shard
9 years ago

Vaughan
Alomar
Gordon

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Alomar, Tiant, Winfield