Circle of Greats 1897 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 94th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1897. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1897-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1897-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Thursday, May 21st, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, May 19th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1897 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1897 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The nineteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1897 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
David Cone (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Jim Edmonds (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dwight Evans (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ted Lyons (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Bill Terry (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1897, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Frankie Frisch
Glenn Myatt
Hod Ford
Joe Dugan
Lu Blue
Andy High
Bob Fothergill
Earl Smith
Johnny Gooch
Harvey Hendrick
Lefty O’Doul
Freddy Leach
Ross Youngs

Pitchers (born in 1897, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Larry Benton
Eddie Rommel
Huck Betts
Alex Ferguson
Sam Gray

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CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

My initial guess for Question 1 without doing any real research legwork would be Jeff Kent and Carlos Baerga, who combine for 74.7 bWAR.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 12 is Jason Kendall, with a 107 OPS+, .399 OBP and .390 SLG in 2004.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

13. Lefty O’Doul – Dan Brouthers.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

15. Freddy Leach – 2008 Phillies, with Pat Burrell, Shane Victorino, and Jayson Werth.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I see; I was only looking for the 3 straight OPS+ years; I didn’t check the other columns. Whoops.

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Are there a minimum number of at bats for this feat, because the 1929 Phillies did it as well, with Lefty O’Doul replacing Leach, but by that time Cy Williams was only a part timer

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Brent

I knew it had to be the 1890s and just couldn’t find the year. It is 1898. Flick, Delahanty and Thompson.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  Brent

Was reading a funny anecdote today about Delahanty. In a game that the Phillies were losing and that had apparently been delayed as darkness was looming, Delahanty, as team captain (not Manager), ordered a young pitcher to intentionally walk one batter after another in the hope that the game would be called on account of darkness before it became an official contest. When an opposing batter attempted to foil this strategy by deliberately striking out, the catcher intentionally dropped the third strike and then threw the ball “towards” first base, but really into right field. Those shenanigans were enough for… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

9. Eddie Rommel – I’m pretty sure it’s Phil Niekro, 1977-1979.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

6. Larry Benton – Bob Welch

koma
koma
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

2. Buck Martinez 1008

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

The answer to #18 is the incomparable Willard Marshall, who was a pretty decent ballplayer for the Giants in the late 40s.

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Pretty sure #11 is Jackie Robinson

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Additional tidbit: Players other than Fothergill who had a lifetime BA of .300+ after every game of their careers (3000 PA min.):
Earle Combs
Jimmie Foxx
Joe DiMaggio
Riggs Stephenson
Dale Mitchell
Barney NcCosky

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

More additional tidbts.

Frankie Frisch’s career BA of .316 is the highest for switch-hitters with at least 1000 PA. He is the only player to appear in 4 or more WS for two different teams, Giants and Cards.

Glenn Myatt is one of 12 players with 16+ seasons in the majors to have never accumulated as many as 400 PA in any one season.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Ozzie Guillen is one answer to the Hod Ford question.

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

That would be White Sox player/manager Don Kessinger

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Bob Fothergill: I started with Tony Gwynn, who met different parts of the criteria in different years. Then I moved to Bonds, but he hit too many HRs the years he had really high AVG.

Chipper Jones was 36 in 2008 and went .364/.470/.574 with 160 hits and 47 XBHs in 534 PAs.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

If Alex Gonzalez doesn’t make that error (I mean Bartman doesn’t go for the foul ball), then Eric Karros probably plays in a World Series and Doug would have had to come up with another Lu Blue question. But alas …

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

16. Huck Betts. According to B-Ref, there are 3 Delaware natives with more career IP than Betts´ 1366. Bert Cunningham – 2734, Sadie McMahon – 2634, and Chris Short with 2325 career IP.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Joe Dugan question–Is it Enos Cabell?

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I would have bet heavily that Ozzie Guillen or Damaso Garcia was the answer but Ozzie only had about 5 seasons as a base stealing threat (I assume it was the broken leg that put an end to that) and Damaso was just a little too prolific a base stealer for one season right in the middle of his career.

Love these brain teasers.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug: On 6-2-26 Lu Blue played CF, replacing Bob Fothergill.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Sorry, I only read the question and not anything else.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 3, Earl Smith–Wally Schang

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question #7, Andy High–Ed Konetchy

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 17, Alex Ferguson–Doc Medich in 1982.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Wow – those got answered quickly. Assuming Richard’s answer to #17 is correct, it looks like the only question remaining is #14. Sam Gray. I think the answer is Sal Maglie (1950).

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Bring it on. ;o)

PaulE
PaulE
8 years ago

Winfield, Edmonds, Frisch

brent
brent
8 years ago

Frisch, Goslin and Campy.

And the answer to #8 sure sounds like the Big Hurt to me.

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

OK, how about Eric Karros. And I am pretty sure Andres Galarraga is only disqualified because of one inning at 3rd base in 1996.

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
8 years ago

Brown, Killebrew, Evans

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

A pitch for Hoyt Wilhelm:

Leaders in era+, minimum 2000 IP:

154 … Pedro
148 … Lefty Grove
147 … Hoyt Wilhelm
147 … Walter Johnson

145 … Ed Walsh
143 … Roger Clemens
142 … Addie Joss
140 … Kid Nichols

139 … Mordecai Brown
138 … Cy Young
136 … Johan Santana*?
135 … Christy Mathewson
135 … Pete Alexander
135 … Rube Waddell
135 … Randy Johnson

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Also (pardon if I repeat information from the Redemption Round ballot)… Hoyt is dismissed as a reliever. But he threw more innings than any other reliever. More than many starters. Most IP, 90 percent of games in relief: 2254 … Wilhelm 2139 … Lindy McDaniel 1809 … Gossage 1701 … Fingers ________________ And there is this preposterousness: Wilhelm is credited with 20.4 WAR after the age of 40. Here is the list of relievers (80 percent+ of games in relief) top WAR totals after the age of 30. Not 40, 30 : 47.4 … Wilhelm 41.4 … Mariano 24.3 …… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

Campanella, Hartnett, Lyons

I may revisit this at some point depending on how the voting is going. These are the 3 holdovers that I’m certain belong and there are 3 others on the bubble that I’m pretty certain do. There are others that I think that might but with the vote being split by this large a group I just can concern myself with them by now.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
8 years ago

Frisch, Ashburn, Wilhelm

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
8 years ago
Reply to  Gary Bateman

The first 18 votes (6 ballots) went to 13 different players. I’d guess that’s never happened before.

In fact, before this ballot, the first 15 votes went to 12 different players. Almost seems impossible. Who wants to vote Ferrell-Reuschel-Nettles next?

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

We’ve had 19 ballots now, and still Cone, Eckersley, and Nettles have not received any votes. 57 votes, and no mentions of those players. Perhaps that’s not a surprise with Cone, who has been redeemed before but struggles on the main ballot, but it certainly IS a surprise with regard to Eck and Nettles, both of whom often are among the leaders. It would be easy to dismiss 19 ballots as “early days,” but now that we’re more like 50 voters per round, we might be about 40% of the way through this round!

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
8 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Brown 43.3
Frisch 41.1
Reuschel 40.6
FerrellW 40.1
Cone 39.1
Edmonds 38.0
Tiant 37.5
Nettles 35.7
Evans 34.9
Eckersley 34.3
Ashburn 33.9
Lyons 33.3
Killebrew 33.0
Terry 32.4
Goslin 31.7
Winfield 31.1
Minoso 30.6
Hartnett 30.3
Wilhelm 28.7
Rommel 26.0
Campanella 19.2
Hall of Famer Ross Youngs 17.6

Brown, Frisch, Wilhelm

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Just a word about Ross Youngs. In 1924, presumably after the season, which was a very good one for him, he began suffering from Bright’s disease, a kidney ailment, and his last two seasons were struggles that ended when he couldn’t play anymore. His stats show this sudden drop-off quite clearly, e.g., going from an OPS+ of 159 in 1924 to 89 in 1925. He died in October of 1927. Given that his last healthy season was played at age 27, at which time he had accumulated 30.8 WAR and 17.6 WAA, it is conceivable and possibly even probable that… Read more »

Brent
Brent
8 years ago

Channeling Frankie Frisch, are we? Pretty sure that is the substance of his pitch for Youngs in the Veterans Committee (he might not have used WAR and WAA)

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Brent: If I’m channeling anyone it’s Bill James, who points to Pete Rose as a a modern player comparable to Youngs. Here are some stats for the two through their respective age 28 seasons, Youngs listed first: PA: 4915; 4785 R: 750; 679 H: 1377; 1327 2B: 224; 218 3B: 88; 52 HR: 38; 75 RBI: 549; 433 SB: 132; 50 CS: 83; 60 BB: 513; 397 SO: 371; 467 BA: .324; .309 OBP: .401; .369 SLG: .444; .436 OPS+: 131; 123 WAR: 30.6; 30.2 Youngs, you will note, has the advantage in every category except HRs. Here’s where the… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

A newbie and my two stand-bys:

Kevin Brown
Frankie Frisch
Luis Tiant

Shard
Shard
8 years ago

Ashburn – Frisch – Ferrell

David P
David P
8 years ago

I’m finding myself completely indifferent to the outcome of this election. So…helping keep three players on the ballot: Lyons, Edmonds, Tiant.

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

You’re far from the only one who’s indifferent- have you seen how the vote totals have been dropping? Personally, I couldn’t possibly care less any longer- the majority of the ballots at this point are just people who want to keep their pet cause on the ballot instead of actually debating who was the best.

You know, like your ballot.

There’s just no point in paying attention anymore.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
8 years ago
Reply to  Mike HBC

Which is a shame, because this should be a relatively close election. With the 1903 holdovers finally elected, we’re left with a good list of holdovers that lacks a clear standout, and one newbie that probably tops them all, though it’s not an open-and-shut case. I could probably be persuaded that Nettles, Edmonds or even Ashburn or Evans are superior choices to Frisch.

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Mike HBC

Mike HBC – Well some of these people who are being kept on the ballot will get elected. So there is value in keeping them on.

Steven
Steven
8 years ago

Frisch, Hartnett, Goslin.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
8 years ago

When I was in my early teens, baseball was an important part of my life, as it is right now. I had practice during weekdays, and games on the weekends. Listening to games on the radio every day was part of our summer AND winter days too. Being a Southern California neighbor, I could hear either the Dodgers or the Padres. Jaime Jarrin was a familiar voice (he´s till going strong) during Dodgers broadcasts in Spanish. On the Padres side, it was the late Mario Thomas´ voice that made us love the game, he called games for the Aguilas during… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

I knew that O’Doul was a major driving force in the popularity of baseball in Japan but I doubt that even he was aware that he had the same effect on a young Mexican boy.

Great, great story.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
8 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Luis, thank you for the post – a great story of baseball and languages. The next time I am in Southern California (or northern Mexico) during the MLB season, I will listen on the airwaves for Jaime Jarrin (as well as Vin Scully).

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

I’m with Hartvig and Hub Kid, Luis: Terrific post.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

Terry, Goslin, Frisch

JEV
JEV
8 years ago

Frisch, Campanella, Hartnett

Mike L
Mike L
8 years ago

Mike HBC @48, and in general. The functionality issues that we are having, plus the (hopefully temporary) respite that Birtelcom and John Autin are on do have an impact on the site. We’ve long had very good and detailed debates about a number of players, and issues like the use of WAR, steroids, the impact of wartime stats, fielding metrics, etc. during the last few years, which really lift HHS into a true community. But the technical problems with comment/display of comments really have a chilling effect, because it’s difficult to begin or participate in a conversation that you can’t… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

I agree with everything you said. First, I also want to add my thanks to Doug for stepping up and carrying the load these past couple of months. He has done an amazing job and the only way that I can see to pay the debt of gratitude that he is owned is by continuing to stick with the site until better days are here. I understand the frustration but I think that the great discussions and unique undertakings (like the COG and Mt. Rushmore projects) coupled with a high level of civility and camaraderie make this too valuable a… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I would be more than willing to contribute.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago

Ditto. Thanks for asking the question, Hartvig.

When I check the site each day, sometimes my first thought is, “Thank goodness, Doug is still posting material.”

MJ
MJ
8 years ago

Rick Reuschel, Frankie Frisch, Kevin Brown

mosc
mosc
8 years ago

Frisch, Ferrell, Campanella

brp
brp
8 years ago

K. Brown
Reuschel
Wilhelm

JamesS
JamesS
8 years ago

Hartnett, Campanella, Lyons

Kirk
Kirk
8 years ago

Minoso, Reuschel and Wilhelm

Paul E
Paul E
8 years ago

FWIW, I voted for Frisch, but his peak seasons (age 23-32) OPS+ of 119 has been exceed by 20 other second basemen with at least 3,000 PA’s in that same age-frame. Amongst those twenty are his contemporaries Rogers Hornsby and the, apparently, under rated George Grantham. For those that don’t trust dWAR, does this create a change of mind?

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Longevity, 4 years of true excellence, 8 World Series (including one as Player/Manager).

I wouldn’t rate him above and beyond our 20 other candidates, but still a fine selection.

As long as we don’t elect Jesse Haines, Dave Bancroft, Chick Hafey, Rube Marquard, Ross Youngs and George Kelly.

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Looking at oWAR, Frisch comes in 10th among second baseman. All the men below him were passed over for COG election. All the men above him have or will be elected to the COG, except for the guy right above Frisch – Jeff Kent. I’d certainly put Frisch above Kent and it seems like most voters agree.

Paul E
Paul E
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

So, I guess it safe to assume you trust dWAR? Or, it’s better than anything else we have?

mosc
mosc
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

DWAR may be flawed and may also be the best we have but that doesn’t mean ignoring it leaves us with the absence of information. Frisch had a great defensive reputation, better than hornsby for example, and has a career .974 fielding percentage and a well above league average range factor.

Frisch was a hell of a defender and you shouldn’t need DWAR to tell you that.

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Paul E – I guess I wasn’t clear in my #74. Kent has a small (2.5) oWAR laed over Frisch. Meanwhile we have two pieces of information (Rfield and reputation) that tell us that Kent wasn’t a good fielder and those same two that tell us that Frisch was a good fielder. So it’s hardly a stretch to sat that Frisch should be rated higher than Kent. Or look at it this way. Rfield says Frisch was +140 runs defensively and Kent was -42. Let’s just halve those numbers and make them +70 and -21. Guess what? Frisch would still… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Well now Voomo, you just didn’t see those guys in person. I’m telling you, well, Jesse Haines, he wasn’t a thrower like these fellas coming out of the bullpen in today’s game, he was a PITCHER. He knew all the batters and their weaknesses. Perhaps the only one better was Rube Marquard. Chick Hafey – well, he didn’t need steroids to average over 20 HRs and 100 RBI at his best. And how many guys today hit .317 for their career? Guys who started their careers after 1950 – I count 7 of them, and most of these guys (Gwynn,… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

I think you nailed him, Artie.

RonG
RonG
8 years ago

Hartnett, Campanella, Evans

Chris C
Chris C
8 years ago

Eck, Lyons, Ashburn

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

Early returns, through 21 ballots (#78):

12 – Frisch
================= 50% (11)
6 – Campanella
================= 25% (6)
5 – Brown, Hartnett, Wilhelm
4 – Lyons, Tiant
3 – Ashburn, Goslin, Reuschel
================= 10% (3)
2 – Edmonds, Dw Evans, Ferrell, Minoso
1 – Eckersley, Killebrew, O’Doul, Terry, Winfield
0 – Cone, Nettles

koma
koma
8 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Minnie Minoso

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
8 years ago

Tiant, Nettles, Evans

These back-to-back redemption rounds are exhausting- there’s now a lot more ‘work’ for a voter at the bottom of the ballot than at the top, at least in a round like this and the last one…

I think Frankie Frisch is a bit like Joe Morgan- a player that has a good case on the stats, but wrought much saber-mayhem later on. Maybe there’s something about second basemen… I wonder what, say, Charlie Gehringer, would think of baseball statistical analysis.

mosc
mosc
8 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

Frisch’s case is based on his batting average, stolen bases, and defensive reputation. I don’t think those are three particularly controversial categories between sabermetrics and traditional stats people. If anything, those categories tend to be overrated by the traditional crowd and it’s not like Frisch is a borderline candidate for the COG (at least IMHO) Morgan hit 45 pts lower than Frisch and managed fewer hits despite playing 10% longer. Morgan walked at twice the clip of Frisch, something a lot of traditional guys ignore. Still, it’s not like traditional voters are down on morgan getting in, they just don’t… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  mosc

mosc, I think you’re misunderstanding his point. Frisch allowed for the worst candidates ever to be elected into the Hall of Fame, which has earned him the ire of saberists; likewise, Morgan, in spite of being a sabermetric darling, has been outspokenly hostile to advanced stats. Hub Kid wasn’t arguing about their cases as measured by traditional or advanced stats; he was pointing out that these two people have caused a great deal of upset among sabermetrically-minded people.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
8 years ago
Reply to  mosc

thank you, Dr. Doom- that is what I meant. What I was really thinking about is if I think is if what I would call the ‘anti-stats’ post-baseball careers they both had would have any effect on my (and other statistically receptive voters’) voting. I did vote for Morgan, but there are so many ‘down-ballot’ players that I like on the 1897 ballot that I didn’t vote for Frisch – even with his alliterative name and alliterative nickname.

JasonZ
8 years ago

The best thing about baseball is how it links us through generations. The bond that it builds within families as been wonderfully described here by Luis Gomez. Luis is creating memories that his descendants will enjoy long after everyone reading this today is gone. My dads mom was born in the Bronx in 1910. 12 or 13 years after the Fordham Flash (sources vary). She was a big Yankee fan who loved to tell me about the day she saw the Sultan of Swat in Yankee Stadium hit a home run and make a diving catch in right field. But… Read more »

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
8 years ago
Reply to  JasonZ

Thanks for sharing that story, Jason.

Stories like that, is what makes us love this game so much.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago

Campanella, Wilhelm, Frisch

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago

Frisch, Nettles, Ferrell

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Vote:

Dennis Eckersley
Wes Ferrell
Hoyt Wilhelm

J.R.
J.R.
8 years ago

Killebrew, Winfield, Terry.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Very quick update, through J.R.’s vote (the 27th):

14 – Frankie Frisch
=========50% (14)
7 – Roy Campanella, Hoyt Wilhelm
=========25% (7)
3,4,5 – Pretty much everyone
=========10% (3)
2 – Jim Edmonds, Graig Nettles, Bill Terry, Dave Winfield
1 – Lefty O’Doul
0 – David Cone

T-Bone
T-Bone
8 years ago

Reuschel, Wilhelm, Hartnett

Andy
Andy
8 years ago

Frankie Frisch, Kevin Brown, Jim Edmonds

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
8 years ago

Frankie Frisch
Goose Goslin
Graig Nettles

Joseph
Joseph
8 years ago

Nettles, Frisch, Tiant

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

I remain mystified by the lack of support for Ted Lyons He ranks right in there with our current crop of pitchers in both JAWS & the Hall of Stats Hall of Stats Jaws Brown 137 Ferrell 58.3 Reuschel 135 Reuschel 56.9 Tiant 128 Brown 56..9 Cone 128 Lyons 56.2 Lyons 125 Tiant 55.6 Eckersley 123 Cone 53.0 Ferrell 110 Eckersley 50.5 Wilhelm 107 Wilhelm 37.1 Both numbers are either right at (HOS) or slightly above (JAWS) the “cutoff” mark for the top 115 or so players eligible for the COG. I understand being hesitant to select players right on… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Rightly or wrongly, Lyons, I think, may be getting lumped with other pitchers like Don Sutton and Tommy John as having a career the strength of which rests on its longevity alone without any true peak—good but not great, in other words, and not nearly so good overall as, say, Glavine’s. His best pitching was done early and late, too, while the middle of his career was erratic, a couple of good years and the rest mediocre or even worse. Every player has his own career—a truism, no doubt, but some careers are so out of the ordinary that they… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

I’m not so sure about how many pitchers would flourish in the Sunday starter role, at least if they were used like Lyons was. For those who don’t know already, in that era major league teams played double headers on almost every Sunday. Which meant of course they needed 2 starters. And since virtually every team went with a 4 man rotation they either had to use one of their starters on only 2 days rest or have a swingman start. This also put a strain on their bullpens since most teams only carried 8 to 10 pitchers on their… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig:

As a point of interest, not to argue, in 1940 Freddie Fitzsimmons went 16-2 for the Dodgers in 22 starts, 12 of them in double headers, although only sporadically on Sundays. He was 38 years old. Maybe the idea was in the air.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

I think it still might be a good idea. Double headers are a thing of the past of course but I do think that the early 1970’s showed that- with a little common sense regarding pitch counts & a few other things thrown in- most pitchers can handle a 4 man rotation work load. Throw in the “crafty veteran” who maybe can not longer give you 200+ innings as a swingman/spot starter and… Is my memory playing tricks or didn’t someone try going with a 4-man rotation (other than then first few weeks at the beginning of the season) just… Read more »

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago

Hartvig,

The Rockies tried going with a four-man rotation in the middle of the 2012 season, also using a 75-pitch limit with their starters. Within a couple months or so they were back to using five starters but continued trying to keep pitch counts at seventy-five.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

That doesn’t look like it worked out so well for the Rockies but that probably has as much to do with the quality of the pitchers as anything.

Nine guys who started 10 or more games.

I wonder what the record is?

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago

The Rockies certainly didn’t start a revolution back to the four-man rotation, but their experiment did yield a modicum of success – it stopped the hemorrhage from their almost historically bad 2012 starting rotation. On August 30th that year, Troy E. Renck of the Denver Post wrote: “Since the switch, the Rockies have pitched better. In the first 65 games, the starters were 13-20 with a 6.28 ERA, threatening the 1996 Tigers’ 6.64 ERA as the worst ever. In the last 64 games, they are 11-26 with a 5.61 ERA. The relievers have morphed into part piggybackers, part vultures, increasingly… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

@119

Nine pitchers with 10+ starts is the record. It has been accomplished by the following teams shown below with their W-L records.

1910 Indians, 71-81
1966 A’s, 74-86
1966 Red Sox,72-90
1992 Tigers,75-87
1996 A’s, 78-84
1997 A’s, 65-97
2001 White Sox,83-79
2002 Cards,97-65
2009 Mariners,85-77
2012 Twins,66-96
2012 Rockies,64-98
2014 Yankees, 84-78
2014 Red Sox,71-91

The 2002 Cards were the only first place finishers.

Captain Tenneal
Captain Tenneal
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig, your math is a little off. 3 pitchers for every 8 position players means 3 pitchers for every 11 total spots, which is 27.3%. So pitchers have been elected at almost the exact rate that you would expect to match the HOF. You should expect to wind up with about 33 pitchers, so expect only another 8 or so to be elected along the way.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

Major brain fart on my part- thanks for pointing out where my mistake was.

That means my original guess- the big 5 that I mentioned plus maybe 3 or 4 others- was pretty close.

How does it go?

I was wrong once- I thought I was wrong but I wasn’t.

If only this were the only time.

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig – I attribute Lyons lack of support to the following factors:

1) Traditional stats are only so-s0. 260-230 with a 3.67 ERA.
2) Lack of name recognition which means people don’t bother looking at his WAR or other factors.
3) Low peak (only one season above 6.0 WAR) which means that his WAA is below 30.
4) Voters not taking into account his hitting (+4.4 WAR)
5) Voters not giving him credit for missed time for WWII.
6) I remember Doug saying he felt that Lyons was too inconsistent.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

I did mention that Lyons’ lack of consistency from one season to the next was one reason I hesitated about supporting him. This can be seen in his ERA which, in consecutive qualifying seasons all played in the same ballpark, moves up or down by 0.9 runs or more on 7 different occasions. Be that as it may, there are other factors that work against Lyons, including: – brief and not very high peak: 18.6 WAR age 24-26. He averaged 285 IP for those years, so he was certainly getting enough innings to compile heftier WAR numbers. – for the… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

All reasonable points and while I may have some quibbles with some of them I will forgo spelling out my reasons because: a) I’m leaving town for a week tomorrow and have to get ready and b) I suspect most readers are sick to death of my going on about Lyons.

Where I’m headed we’ll mostly have extremely limited internet access so I’ll probably won’t be saying much for a while- which I’m sure will be a relief to some people.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Safe travels, Hartvig. I enjoy your contributions; you always seem to make good points for us to consider.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I’ve always liked Lyons, Hartvig. Since Frisch does not need my vote (and I voted for him out of duty rather than appreciation), I’m going to switch my vote to help Lyons be assured of another round and to acknowledge your arguments. People tend to recall Lyons as the Sunday pitcher (if they recall him at all), and his final years really were exceptional. But it’s also good to bear in mind that he achieved his 260-230 record for a team that was perpetually in – often deep in – the second division (they finished closer than 15 games out… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig, I don’t buy the premise of your post. You said, “He ranks right in there with our current crop of pitchers in both JAWS & the Hall of Stats.” I would agree. And, in fact, the results bear out that the electorate feels the same way. This is Lyons’ fourth round of COG voting. Here are the total numbers of votes for all pitchers in those four rounds (including this one, through e pluribus munu’s vote change @116): Kevin Brown – 38 Luis Tiant – 29 Dennis Eckersley – 26 Ted Lyons – 25 Rick Reuschel – 24 Wes… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

You’re missing the “BUT” part of my comment however- he IS roughly equal to the other pitchers BUT he also lost 3 years to WW2. No doubt some of our voters don’t give any kind of credit for “what if” scenarios like that & that’s OK. I normally don’t for thing like injuries myself altho I can see where there might be cases where it would be reasonable to do so. I don’t have a hard and fast rule that I follow. I can also understand why some might question how much his final numbers were hurt by the time… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
8 years ago

Minoso
Lyons
Wilhelm

(and yes, I did grow up as a Sox fan)

Mike G.
Mike G.
8 years ago

Brown, Cone, Eckersley

Josh
Josh
8 years ago

Frankie Frisch, Bill Terry, Gabby Hartnett wanted to vote for Cone, Winfield, and Ross Youngs……..but just not enough votes allowed. Not looking like Frisch needs my vote but i’ve always felt that I needed to vote for whoever I feel most deserves the nod on my ballot. Ross Youngs was an amazing player whose life was cut short in his prime. I’m surprised to see that his WAR wasn’t as good as his numbers: quality AVG with quality OBP, good extra base talent with speed, and an amazing fielder on pennant winning teams. Had Youngs lived longer and played longer,… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

Through 33 votes (#111):

17 – Frisch
===================50% (17)
9 – Wilhelm
===================25% (9)
7 – Brown, Campanella
6 – Hartnett, Tiant
5 – Lyons
4 – Eckersley, Ferrell, Goslin, Minoso, Nettles, Reuschel
===================10% (4)
3 – Ashburn, Edmonds, Dw Evans, Killebrew
2 – Terry, Winfield
1 – Cone, O’Doul

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago

In deference to Hartvig’s defense of Ted Lyons, I’m switching my vote to Lyons, along with Campy and Wilhelm. The Flash can fend for himself. But I do want to note a little regret at switching after reading Jason Z’s nice comment on his grandmother. I’m a generation up, and my father, also Bronx-born, was a rabid Giants fan in the ’20s, Frisch’s day – he always referred to him by his nickname, but he never expressed the type of deep admiration that he felt for Ott and Hubbell, even though Frisch was a Giant when my father was at… Read more »

aweb
aweb
8 years ago

Brown
Campanella
Ferrell

Mo
Mo
8 years ago

Ashburn Reuschel Dwight Evans

Mike L
Mike L
8 years ago

Regarding Ted Lyons, I have to admit I have a lot of trouble with all but the elite pitchers. The new metrics make it harder for me, not less hard, to distinguish value. Applied to hitters, I like them. Applied to pitchers, with their reliance on fielding stats and normalizing for stadiums, they have an odd way of erasing chalk-lines between what I used to think of as excellence, and just good. Here are three sets of numbers: ERA+ of 114, FIP of 3.22, bWAR of 68.2, over 3548 innings. ERA+ of 118, FIP of 4:01, bWAR of 67.2, over… Read more »

BillH
BillH
8 years ago

Rrisch, Winfield, Campanella

Darien
8 years ago

Frisch, Killebrew, and Eckersley