Circle of Greats: Redemption Round #8, Part 2

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This Circle of Greats (COG) vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle, but only to select two players who will either be: restored back on to the main ballot after having been previously been dropped from eligibility; or made eligible for the COG ballot if previously ineligible. This part two of our eighth “redemption round” (we’ve been holding such redemption rounds interspersed among the regular voting rounds every tenth voting round or so) gives voters a chance to reconsider past candidates who have previously fallen off the regular induction ballots, or to consider candidates who were not previously eligible for that ballot.

In this vote you may include on your three-man ballot any major league baseball player who was born between 1899 and 1945 and has not been elected to the Circle of Greats and is not currently on the 1898 COG ballot (there was a redemption vote last week for players born between 1946 and 1970). As usual, you must vote for three and only three players to cast a qualifying ballot. The two players who appear on the most ballots will be restored to eligibility for the next regular, induction round of COG voting. If your personal favorite doesn’t come in the top two this time, do not despair — he will have other chances in future redemption rounds to be held from time to time.

There are many players who are eligible for your votes in this redemption round. As an optional aid to your selection process, I’ve put together two lists, one for pitchers and one for everyday players, that include some stats for a substantial selection of relevant players: Redemption Round 8 Part 2 Optional Hitter List and Redemption Round 8 Part 2 Optional Pitcher List. Both lists show the players who accumulated at least 25 Wins Above Replacement (baseball-reference version), ordered by WAR. Again, these spreadsheets represent entirely discretionary lists — your full options are as stated: all major leaguers born between 1899 and 1945 who have not been inducted into the COG and are not on the 1898 ballot that is also the subject of a vote this week.

The deadline to cast your ballots in this redemption round is Tuesday night, May 12th at 11:59PM EDT. You can change your votes until 11:59PM EDT on Sunday night, May 10th. You can keep track of the vote tally in this redemption round here: COG Redemption Round 8 Part 2 Vote Tally.

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Voomo Zanzibar

8 years ago

Vote:

Dick Allen
Larry Doby
Hoyt Wilhelm
____________

I would vote for Wilhelm thrice if I could.

Steven

8 years ago

Ken Boyer, Billy Williams, Lou Brock.

David P

8 years ago

Drysdale, Reggie Smith, Boyer

Hartvig

8 years ago

Monte Irvin, Larry Doby, Richie Ashburn

Andy

8 years ago

Ken Boyer, Sal Bando, Don Sutton

8 years ago

Ashburn dick Allen don sutton

Gary Bateman

8 years ago

Ashburn, Boyer, Wilhelm

PaulE

8 years ago

dick allen, billy williams, reggie smith

donburgh

8 years ago

Satchel Paige, Ralph Kiner, Willie Stargell

I am surprised that I am the first to vote for Paige.

JEV

8 years ago

Drysdale, Wilhelm, Sutton

Bill Johnson

8 years ago

Rocky Colavito, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Richie Asburn

mosc

8 years ago

BIG REMINDER!

By great discussion, Satchel Paige is eligible on this ballot! Please remember folks!

Satchel Paige, Monte Irvin, Don Drysdale

Hub Kid

8 years ago

Satchel Paige, Hal Newhouser, Reggie Smith

mosc

8 years ago

Doug, would it be too much of a bias to reference that Satchel Paige is eligible in the top? Special exception for people with double digit WAR in their 40s or something?

David Horwich

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

Thing is, Paige isn’t being made an exception because he meets some statistical criterion, so to pretend there’s some sort of consistent standard being applied would be disingenuous, at best. He’s being made an exception because…well, just because, I guess.

Hartvig

8 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Actually, my understand was that he wasn’t an exception- that in the redemption rounds anyone born during those years could/can be listed on your ballot & eligible. Mike HBC has voted for Jim Abbott, Curtis Pride and Jim Eisenreich in every redemption round where their birthdays qualify and those votes have always counted, even before the subject of Satchel Paige came up.

David Horwich

8 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Well, Abbott, Eisenreich, and Pride all had at least 10 years in MLB, so they were COG-eligible during the regular rounds of voting.

David P

8 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Yeah I still don’t get this Paige thing. The very first line of the instructions say:

“This Circle of Greats (COG) vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle, but only to select two players who will be restored back on to the main ballot after having been previously been dropped from eligibility.”

And the next line includes the phrase:

“gives voters a chance to reconsider past candidates who have previously fallen off the regular induction ballots.”

Paige doesn’t meet that criteria. In my less than humble opinion, votes that include him shouldn’t count.

donburgh

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

@19 David P

The 2nd paragraph states ANY player from the stated time frame and not already elected is eligible. So, at worst, the two paragraphs conflict (or at least seem to do so). IMO, the tie goes to the runner; Paige should be eligible.

David Horwich

8 years ago

Reply to donburgh

@19, @21 – Having gone back and checked…the instructions/rules for the first redemption round explicitly stated that a player had to be otherwise CoG-eligible to be eligible for a redemption round (although that player need not have received any votes in the regular balloting). The instructions for future redemption rounds were less explicit, thus creating a certain ambiguity in the instructions – as David P @19 notes, to be “restored to eligibility” implies that a player was eligible in the first place, but per donburgh @21, the instructions later refer to “any major league player” born between the relevant years.… Read more »

Darien

8 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Your reading comports with mine — I believe that’s precisely what happened. I’m not favorable to it either, but, as you say: it is what it is.

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

I concur with your comment:

… “any major league player” clause did indeed mean any player, including those not otherwise CoG-eligible.

Thus, the most definitive statement in the instructions:

… your full options are as stated: all major leaguers born between 1899 and 1945 who have not been inducted into the COG and are not on the 1898 ballot that is also the subject of a vote this week.

Thus, Paige is eligible to receive votes as a major-leaguer born in the requisite time period who is not in the COG and not currently on the COG ballot.

Hub Kid

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

Here are Birtelcom’s direct quotes from the 1906 round, “I have in the past taken the position that in a redemption round you can vote for anyone who has played in the majors and whose birth year fits within the parameters of a redemption round. That way if there really is strong support among voters to consider an “exception” to the 10 season/20 WAR rule there is an avenue to get such a player on to the main ballot.” and explicitly for Paige, “But again, if Paige gets enough support through the redemption process, we’ll include him on the main… Read more »

Artie Z.

8 years ago

Reply to Hub Kid

I will wait on a ruling from Doug before casting a vote. If in fact we can vote for Paige, and that means we get an extra round of voting as well (BBWAA+1) if he gets elected to the COG, it seems like a no-brainer – Paige on the ballot and the possibility of one more round of voting!

David P

8 years ago

Reply to Hub Kid

Thanks Hub Kid. I remember when Birtelcom wrote that and I found it puzzling and the time and continue to find it puzzling. As David Horwich points out in @24, the original instructions said something differently and made it clear that only players who were previously on the ballot were eligible to be redeemed. The instructions were later revised. Which raises several unanswered questions: Why were they changed? Were voters allowed to provide input prior to the change? (I believe the answer to this is no) Were voters informed of the change? (I believe the answer is no, and that… Read more »

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Hub Kid

I have amended the instructions to conform with birtelcom’s revised view of those eligible to receive Redemption round votes.

Dr. Doom

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

I have no idea what this is worth to any of you, but I think that birtelcom’s more recent comments about this clearly implied that Paige COULD be voted for. Doug is ultimately the person whose opinion matters at the moment, but I WILL be counting ballots that include Paige for the purposes of my unofficial vote tallying.

Dave Humbert

8 years ago

Public service argument for Prince Hal: I know that there is a feeling Hal Newhouser is overrated by his pitching during WWII. He actually pitched 1939-1955 and in only 2993.0 innings (31st for list) managed 207 wins (only 2 less than Drysdale). Low number of IP certainly, but WAA per pitch of 37.4 trounces everyone (Drysdale is a distant second at 28.6). Similar to a Koufax or Ford in that he was used sparingly for great results. Also had a higher winning percentage (.580) than everyone but Freddie Fitzsimmons and Lew Burdette among pitchers with more IP (says something about… Read more »

CursedClevelander

8 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

When I saw this in the “Recent Comments” I only saw the first line, so I thought you were talking about another Prince Hal, Hal Chase. Which definitely piqued my curiosity, because I was *very* interested in how anybody could make a CoG case for such a marginal player, especially one who is permanently ineligible because of throwing games.

Of course, we also haven’t come to his birth year yet, so he’s not even eligible.

no statistician but

8 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

The difficulty in evaluating Newhouser is that his career is unique. He blossomed as a pitcher at the moment when the opposition he faced was at it’s lowest ebb, so that it is impossible to judge how much of that dominance he showed in 1944 and 1945 ought to be credited to his budding maturity and how much to the weakness of the competition he faced. To a lesser extent this is true as well in 1946, a year in which, in my view, at least, hitters returning from the service, with some exceptions, were slower than pitchers to get… Read more »

T-Bone

8 years ago

Dick Allen, Reggie Smith, Hoyt Wilhelm

Darien

8 years ago

Jim Bunning, Don Drysdale, and, sure, I’ll bite on Hal Newhouser. 60+ WAR pitchers all day long, baby.

8 years ago

Reggie Smith, Don Drysdale, Red Ruffing

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

8 years ago

Dick Allen, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Hal Newhouser, owner of one of the 8 sub-2 FIP seasons since 1920

Dr. Doom

8 years ago

My votes:

Ken Boyer – unfairly subjected to the best birth year in baseball history.
Jim Bunning – ditto.
Don Drysdale – I’m not really sure why he fell off last time.

There you go!

Dr. Doom

8 years ago

VERY early returns: 6 – Don Drysdale, Hoyt Wilhelm 5 – Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Reggie Smith 4 – Richie Ashburn 3 – Hal Newhouser, Satchel Paige, Don Sutton 2 – Jim Bunning, Larry Doby, Monte Irvin, Billy Williams 1 – Sal Bando, Lou Brock, Rocky Colavito, Ralph Kiner, Red Ruffing, Willie Stargell This will probably be the last time I list players with only one vote. Also, as a PSA, I would just ask that you please include first AND last names when you write your ballot. I know that’s a little obnoxious, but “Boyer” could actually refer to… Read more »

Joseph

8 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Hack Wilson, Ralph Kiner, Willie Stargell.

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Joseph

Perhaps some partiality for a particular type of player? 🙂

Joseph

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

HAHA–I guess it would seem that way, yes?

mosc

8 years ago

I don’t have the ability but could anybody pull some data on pitching war for all players ages 41+? How high does Paige rate career wise excluding all contributions through age 40?

How many players have 3WAR seasons aged 45 or higher? Paige has 2 of em.

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

Here you go. Rk Player WAR WAA/pitch From To Age G GS IP ERA FIP ERA+ Tm 1 Jack Quinn 20.7 9.1 1925 1933 41-49 298 128 1199.0 3.53 3.66 119 BOS-PHA-BRO-CIN 2 Roger Clemens 18.3 13.1 2004 2007 41-44 102 101 638.0 2.68 3.18 162 HOU-NYY 3 Phil Niekro 18.1 3.8 1980 1987 41-48 256 250 1635.0 3.93 4.20 100 NYY-ATL-TOR-CLE 4 Hoyt Wilhelm 18.0 9.6 1964 1972 41-49 439 0 744.2 2.09 2.74 162 CHW-CAL-CHC-ATL-LAD 5 Nolan Ryan 17.3 7.6 1988 1993 41-46 162 162 1060.0 3.45 2.93 111 HOU-TEX 6 Cy Young 16.1 8.5 1908 1911 41-44… Read more »

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

And the 3 WAR seasons aged 41+. Paige’s age 46 season is technically under 3 WAR even though it rounds up to 3.0 WAR. Rk Name Yrs From To Age 1 Roger Clemens 3 2004 2006 41-43 Ind. Seasons 2 Nolan Ryan 3 1989 1991 42-44 Ind. Seasons 3 Phil Niekro 3 1980 1984 41-45 Ind. Seasons 4 Jack Quinn 3 1926 1928 42-44 Ind. Seasons 5 Randy Johnson 2 2005 2008 41-44 Ind. Seasons 6 Hoyt Wilhelm 2 1965 1968 42-45 Ind. Seasons 7 Warren Spahn 2 1962 1963 41-42 Ind. Seasons 8 Cy Young 2 1908 1909 41-42… Read more »

Hartvig

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Just thought that I should point out that while Lyons is #15 on the second list and #20 on the first, he did miss 3 full seasons to WW2 between his age 41 season and age 45 and I think it’s very feasible that he could have moved up to the top 8 on both had he played.

MikeD

8 years ago

Stargell
Kiner
Drysdale

RonG

8 years ago

Lou Brock, Ken Boyer, Dizzy Dean

J.R.

8 years ago

Stargell, Combs, Kaat

David Horwich

8 years ago

Ashburn, Ken Boyer, Billy Williams

dr. remulak

8 years ago

Allen, Wilhelm, Stargell.

Artie Z.

8 years ago

Don Richard “Whitey” Ashburn, Donald Scott “Big D” Drysdale, and Leroy Robert “Satchel” Paige

Who knew Richie Ashburn’s first name was actually Don?

Dave Humbert

8 years ago

Doug,

The vote tally is prompting for a Google password when I try to view it.

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

Sorry. I’ve fixed it.

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

Results after 27 votes (Brent @51)
9 – Drysdale
8 – Wilhelm
7 – Ashburn, Boyer, Smith
6 – Allen
5 – Stargell
4 – Paige

David P

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug – Looks like you’re missing Andy (comment #5) on the spreadsheet.

Arsen

8 years ago

Dick Allen, Richie Ashburn, Don Drysdale

opal611

8 years ago

For Redemption Round 8-Part 2, I’m voting for:

-Don Sutton
-Sal Bando
-Reggie Smith

Brent

8 years ago

Reggie Smith, Ashburn and Wilhelm

jajacob

8 years ago

Reggie Smith, Billy Williams, and the dry spitballer Don Sutton

Lawrence Azrin

8 years ago

– Ken Boyer
– Richie Ashburn
– Satchel Paige: We’re looking back, and you’re looking mighty good…

Kirk

8 years ago

Reggie Smith, Billy Williams and Larry Doby

David Horwich

8 years ago

I think the count @53 is off – as David P notes @55, it’s missing one ballot, and I think there was at least one other tabulation error. The earlier count @33 looks correct to me.

Having done a recount, here’s what I have through 31 ballots (#58):

9 – Ashburn, Drysdale, R Smith
8 – K Boyer, Wilhelm
7 – Allen
5 – Paige, Stargell, Sutton, Bi Williams
3 – Doby, Kiner, Newhouser
2 – Bando, Brock, Bunning, Irvin
1 – Colavito, Combs, Dean, Kaat, Ruffing, H Wilson

Chris C

8 years ago

Ashburn, Dick Allen, Don Sutton

bstar

8 years ago

Dick Allen, Hoyt Wilhelm, Ken Boyer

paget

8 years ago

This is the most interesting COG related vote I can remember in quite some time; it’s the one, at all events, that I’m most invested in since… I’m not sure actually. I narrowed down my possible candidates to Billy Williams, Richie Ashburn, Ken Boyer, Willie Stargell, Joe Torre, Dick Allen, Joe Medwick, Ralph Kiner, Ernie Lombardi, Jim Bunning, Don Drysdale. Of all of these the only no-brainer is Richie Ashburn, whom I’d take over everyone on the holdover list except for Waner. For the rest? I’ve spent quite a bit of time here defending Ken Boyer’s merits (I certainly think… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

8 years ago

WAR leaders, 500+ Games Finished:

62.5 … Eck
56.6 … Mariano
50.1 … Wilhelm
41.8 … Gossage
29.4 … Lee Smith
__________________

I’m of the opinion that Wilhelm at least belongs on the main ballot.
Otherwise we’re saying that there’s only room for one pure reliever in the circle.

Josh

8 years ago

Richie Ashburn, Don Drysdale, Hoyt Wilhelm

billh

8 years ago

Paige, Dick Allen, Ken Boyer

Dr. Doom

8 years ago

The contenders, through 36 ballots (billh @66):

12 – Richie Ashburn
11 – Dick Allen, Don Drysdale
10 – Ken Boyer, Hoyt Wilhelm
9 – Reggie Smith

oneblankspace

8 years ago

I voted for Hoyt Wilhelm in regular rounds.
I voted for Dick Allen in regular rounds.
I listened to Don Drysdale on telecasts of Sox games.

I vote for all three of these on my redemption round 8.2 ballot.

Mike G.

8 years ago

Newhouser, Drysdale, Reggie Smith

KalineCountry

8 years ago

Bill Freehan
Hal Newhouser
Jim Bunning

Paul E

8 years ago

At the risk of appearing petulant, let me attempt to make a case for Dick Allen. OPS+ 3B age 22-25 (1,000 PA’s) 165 Dick Allen 159 Eddie Mathews 151 Jim Thome 147 M. Cabrera 145 Harmon Killebrew 142 Wade Boggs OPS+ LF age 26 (502 PA’s) 238 Babe Ruth 186 Ralph Kiner 167 Charlie Keller 163 Willie Stargell 160 Dick Allen 160 Barry Bonds OPS+ 1B age 27-32 (3,000 PA’s) 190 Lou Gehrig 174 Willie McCovey 171 M. Cabrera 166 Albert Pujols 166 Dick Allen 165 Jason Giambi OPS+ ages 22-32 (5,000 PA’s) 217 Babe Ruth 198 Ted Williams 192… Read more »

David P

8 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Paul E – Except Cindy Crawford doesn’t have hair growing out of her mole whereas Allen really was an awful fielder.

And even if you focus just on the mole…well the mole is pretty small overall and some say it enhances her beauty. You can’t say the same of Allen’s fielding – that it was a small thing or that it enhanced his value.

Paul E

8 years ago

Reply to David P

NO mole enhances a woman’s beauty unless she is naked on a yacht – which, I’m sure Cindy has been known to have been a time or two.
As for Allen’s fielding, or McCovey’s, or Jeter’s, or Sheffield’s, let’s see how far Doug Mientkiewicz batting clean-up (and fielding flawlessly) takes his teams.

David P

8 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Except we’re not deciding between Dick Allen and Doug Mientkiewicz. We’re deciding between Allen and lots of other great but flawed players. If they didn’t have their flaws they’d already be in the COG. Allen’s just happens to be defense. Nothing wrong with acknowledging that. And Allen, by the way, wasn’t able to take his teams very far. Only one of them made the playoffs and that near the end of his career when he didn’t contribute much. Of course, Allen did play on two teams (`66 Phillies and `71 Dodgers) who missed the playoffs by one game. Allen cost… Read more »

Paul E

8 years ago

Reply to David P

I believe you mean the ’64 Phillies….The 1964 Phillies with Don Hoak playing 3B and the 1971 Dodgers retaining Ted Sizemore probably would have each finished about 5 – 10 games behind (in lieu of a single game). The 1972 White Sox might have been .500 without Allen.

If you check the lists above, he hit like Greenberg, McGwire on ‘roids, and Mathews and Schmidt….Stargell, McCovey, etc…

R-Baser 1B 1920 – 2015 (33% games played)
31.1 Bagwell
28.5 Erstad
26.5 Carew
15.8 Allen
15.3 Torgeson
13.2 Pujols
10.5 Driessan
9.4 Runnells

Paul E

8 years ago

Reply to David P

One last one:
O-WAR 1964 – 1974
1 Dick Allen 68.3
2 Hank Aaron 63.7
3 Frank Robinson 58.8
4 Carl Yastrzemski 56.1
5 Joe Morgan 55.2
6 Ron Santo 54.5
7 Billy Williams 53.2
8 Pete Rose 52.1
9 Willie Mays 51.6
10 Willie McCovey 51.4

…a lot of bums on that list

Dave Humbert

8 years ago

Newhouser, Ashburn, Wilhelm

Feel the 20’s birth years are a bit underrepresented, and these guys should get another look. A fine lefty, a speedy centerfielder, and a key reliever as well to help spice up the backlog.

Brendan Bingham

8 years ago

Richie Ashburn, Dick Allen, Reggie Smith

Voomo Zanzibar

8 years ago

Live ball era (since 1920) Minimum 2000 IP Best Earned Run Average: 2.52 … Hoyt Wilhelm 2.75 … Whitey Ford 2.76 … Sandy Koufax 2.86 … Jim Palmer 2.86 … Andy Messersmith 2.86 … Tom Seaver 2.89 … Juan Marichal 2.91 … Bob Gibson 2.92 … Dean Chance 2.93 … Pedro Martinez 2.95 … Don Drysdale 2.97 … Mel Stottlemyre 2.98 … Carl Hubbell 3.05 … Felix Hernandez* __________________________ That 2000 IP minimum points out Wilhelm’s length of career, but is mostly unnecessary for the above exercise. Lower the bar to 500 IP and 3 guys best him: 2.21 …… Read more »