Circle of Greats 1889 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 101st round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1889. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1889-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1889-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, July 26th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Friday, July 24th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1889 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1889 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The seventeen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1889 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
George Sisler (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Don Drysdale (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ted Lyons (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Satchel Paige (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Urban Shocker (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1889, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Wally Schang
Hank Gowdy
Amos Strunk
Heinie Groh
George Burns
Jack Fournier
Hi Myers
Tommy Griffith
Jimmy Johnston
Otto Miller
Les Nunamaker

Pitchers (born in 1889, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Hooks Dauss
George Mogridge
Stan Coveleski
Smoky Joe Wood
Lefty Tyler
Willie Mitchell
Claude Hendrix
Jim Bagby
Carl Weilman
Reb Russell

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Gary Bateman

8 years ago

Sisler, Goslin, Ashburn

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

8 years ago

Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals: Brown 43.3 Reuschel 40.6 Tiant 37.5 Coveleski 37.2 Lyons 36.7 Allen 35.8 Nettles 35.7 Dawson 35.4 Drysdale 35.3 Evans 34.9 Eckersley 34.6 Ashburn 33.9 Shocker 33.2 Sisler 32.0 Goslin 31.7 Winfield 31.1 Hartnett 30.3 Wilhelm 28.7 Schang 22.8 Wood 22.6 Paige 5.7 Tough vote. The top 5 by this metric are all pitchers, ranked in nearly reverse chronological order, which is influenced to some extent by the 162-game schedule and advancements in medicine, though Lyons pitched the most innings among them. Allen was the best hitter, Nettles the best fielder, Ashburn the best… Read more »

mosc

8 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

Been meaning to ask you. Your Steroids correction between Brown and Reuschel is… zero?

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

Yes. That’s also my knowledge of whether either used steroids and which of their opponents was using. My knowledge of their effectiveness at helping pitchers pitch is pretty close to zero too.

oneblankspace

8 years ago

This year’s George Burns is the one who hit for the cycle, not the one who turned an unassisted Triple Play.

Steven

8 years ago

Sisler. Goslin. Hartnett.

oneblankspace

8 years ago

Wood pitched for Boston, then played outfield for another team in the American League. Where else have we heard that story….

8 years ago

Wally Schang, George Burns and Heine Groh

8 years ago

Oops, I meant Heinie, not Heine.

Doug

8 years ago

This round’s tidbits. Answers in red. 1. Wally Schang caught 200 games for four franchises (A’s, Red Sox, Yankees, Browns). Which catcher did this most recently? Ramon Hernandez 2. Hank Gowdy posted 3 consecutive seasons (1914-16) with 100 games caught and 2.0 WAR in fewer than 450 PA. Which active player could become the first catcher since to match that feat? Chris Iannetta 3. Amos Strunk is the only known player since 1901 with multiple seasons of 40 extra-base hits while stealing 15 bases with less than a 50% success rate. Who is the only player with an MVP selection… Read more »

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Additional tidbits:

Wally Schang, on 9/8/16, became the first player to hit HRs from both sides of the plate in a game. The second was a bounce HR.

Reb Russell, in 1922, had 75 RBI in 60 games. That ratio of 1.25 RBI/game is the highest for players with at least 25 RBI.

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Question 7 (George Mogridge): Bob Knepper

bstar

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

8. George Burns question: answer is Rogers Hornsby, who led the NL in both runs and walks in 1924 and 1927.

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

#18 (Claude Hendrix)is Larry Jackson, who finished his career with 11 such seasons.

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

#17 (Willie Mitchell). I didn’t check everyone but my guess would be last years Cy Young award winner Cory Kluber with 7.4 WAR, an ERA+ of 157 and only pitched 235.2 innings.

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Question 10 (Hi Myers): Max Carey

1925: 126 OPS+, 4.2 WAR
1926: 58 OPS+, -1.3 WAR

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Carey is one. There is another.

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

I came up with Clyde Milan.

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Not Milan.

He had the requisite WAR and OPS+ in 1909-10, but was just shy of the modern qualifying PA in 1909.

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

How about Alex Rios?

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Not Rios. He played centerfield and right field in the consecutive seasons (2011-12) he met the OPS+ criterion.

Looking for someone who did this is consecutive seasons playing centerfield.

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

OK, I think maybe it could be Richie Ashburn.

1958: 136 OPS+, 7.1 WAR
1959: 80 OPS+ (but I think this is a roundup from 79.5+), -0.9 WAR

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Brent

I think you’re right. In 1959 Ashburn’s OPS+ was 79.58. When I set up my PI run I set OPS+ equal to or less than 79.49 which cut off Ashburn.

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Brent

Ashburn is the one.

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

#16 (Tyler). It was the year before in 1917. The Giants three starting pitchers for the WS were all lefties, Slim Sallee, Ferdie Schupp and Rube Benton. In 1981, the Yankees could have done it. They started Guidry in Games 1 and 5, John in Games 2 and 6 and Righetti in Game 3. For Game 4, their choices were lefty Rudy May or righty Rick Reuschel. They chose Reuschel, who had a 4-2 lead after 3 innings, but the first two batters reached in the 4th and Bob Lemon came out and yanked him in favor of . .… Read more »

brent

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

#11 (smoky joe Wood), is Hank Borowy for the Cubs in 1945, who is the answer to a great trivia question: Who are the last men to win and lose a WS game for the Cubs. And of course, they are the same person, Hank Borowy, who won Game 6 and lost Game 7 in 1945

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to brent

Borowy is also the answer to the question “Who was the first pitcher, since 1901, to win at least 10 games in each league in the same season?”.
In 1945 he had 11 with the Cubs and 10 with the Yankees.

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to brent

Speaking of the 1945 World Series, Lennie Merullo died a couple of months ago at age 98. He was the last living Cub to have played in the ’45 series (no players are living who appeared in any earlier World Series).

That leaves 91 year-old Ed Mierkowicz as the last living player to have appeared in the ’45 WS (Mierkowicz, who had 67 career PA, was a 9th inning defensive replacement for Hank Greenberg in game 7).

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Still living players:
1946 WS: Bobby Doerr,Dave Ferriss and Red Schoendienst
1947 WS: Yogi Berra, Bobby Brown and Ralph Branca.

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Whoops, left out Joe Garagiola from the 1946 WS.

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Red, at least, is still very active in baseball. He remains an employee of the Cardinals organization with the title of Special Assistant Coach. I believe he does come to spring training every year and at the very least, imparts a little wisdom, though I doubt his fungo hitting days are probably over.

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I mean, I expect his fungo hitting days are over

Hartvig

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

I don’t think anyone has answered #19 (Jim Bagby) yet so let me say Hal Newhouser with 29 in 1944 for the Detroit Tigers, who finished 2nd, one game behind the St. Louis Browns in their only pennant winning season in franchise history.

Scary Tuna

8 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

In @17 (below), JS answered questions #8, 9, 13, 19 and 21.

JS, could you repost them as a reply to Doug’s quiz @8 so they don’t get overlooked?

Artie Z.

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

3. Amos Strunk – the Babe in 1923 had 17 SB and 21 CS. I’m pretty certain he makes the 40 XBH mark.

The Goof

8 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Just saw your reply. Beaten to the punch because I did a search for “Ruth” on the page and not “Babe.” Sigh.

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

#4 (Groh) is Dick Allen who started his career with 4 such seasons.

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

#5 (Fournier) is Carlos Delgado in 2000 with 15 HBP leading the league and an 181 OPS+

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Question 20 (Carl Weilman): Jim Scott

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

#6 (Dauss) is Lefty Gomez in 1932 Pitching for the Bombers, as Lefty well knew, was good, very, very good. He went 23-7 (.774 winning percentage) while compiling a 4.21 ERA, good enough for a 97 ERA+. Of course the Yankees went 107-47 (.695), so that helped his cause. I am sure Lefty would tell you, though, that he was pitching to the score.

Kahuna Tuna

8 years ago

Reply to Brent

215 runs scored by the 1932 Yankees in Gomez’ 31 starts (6.94 RS per start)—very, very good. Yet that was only half a run per game more than the 6.42 runs that Yankees averaged in all their games. Let’s give Lefty some credit. He was 7-0 with one no-decision against the second-place A’s. In fact, Gomez started 19 games against the second- through fourth-place AL teams and went 14-3, 4.27 ERA, receiving an average of 6.6 runs of support. He started only 12 games against the four second-division teams and went 9-2, 3.83 ERA, receiving an average of 7.5 runs… Read more »

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Kahuna Tuna

And to give Lefty some more credit, 1932 was really the only year that he won more because of his team and not because of his talent. I would hate to leave the impression that his career success was due to the Yankee’s offense, in 1931 and 1933-1939, his ERA+ was 150, 123, 176 (led the league), 128, 106, 193 (led the league), 136, 128. In 1932, he didn’t really measure up to his career standards, but he was on a team that hid the blemishes quite well.

Thanks for the correction on the win total.

The Goof

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

No. 3 — Appropriately, enough, No. 3. Babe Ruth in 1923. I had a feeling right off the bat Ruth or Gehrig.

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Question 2 (Hank Gowdy): Chris Ianetta

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

It is Iannetta, though he will need a much better second half to this season to reach the Games and WAR requirement to match Gowdy.

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

I think #12 is Daryl Strawberry, who had 6 such seasons with the Mets and 1 with the Dodgers.

brp

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

#14 Otto Miller – provided he doesn’t come back and play this year, Jose Molina has 12 straight seasons of 50+ G and <350 PAs going from 2003-2014.

brp

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

#14 Otto Miller – provided he doesn’t come back and play this year, Jose Molina has 12 straight seasons of 50+ G and <350 PAs going from 2003-2014.

Brent

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

#15 is Bill Dickey in 1943.

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Question 1 (Wally Schang): Ramon Hernandez. Others who did it are Don Slaught, Milt May, Smoky Burgess and, of course, Schang.

Shard

8 years ago

Richie Ashburn – Stan Coveleski – George Sisler

koma

8 years ago

George Sisler, Dennis Eckersley, Satchel Paige

David Horwich

8 years ago

Through 100 rounds of voting, here’s the breakdown of CoG members by position: C – 8 (Bench, Berra, Campanella, G Carter, Cochrane, Dickey, Fisk, Piazza) 1B/DH – 12 (Bagwell, Foxx, Gehrig, Greenberg, Killebrew, E Martinez, McCovey, Mize, Molitor, Murray, Thomas, Thome) 2B – 12 (Alomar, Biggio, Carew, Frisch, Gehringer, Gordon, Grich, Hornsby, Morgan, J Robinson, Sandberg, Whitaker) SS – 11 (Appling, Banks, Boudreau, Cronin, Larkin, Reese, Ripken, O Smith, Trammell, Vaughan, Yount) 3B – 6 (Boggs, Brett, Mathews, B Robinson, Santo, Schmidt) LF – 7 (Bonds, Henderson, Musial, Raines, Simmons, T Williams, Yaz) CF – 6 (DiMaggio, Griffey, Lofton, Mantle,… Read more »

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Evidently, we have the same challenges as the BBWAA in having under-representation of third basemen.

brp

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Perhaps it’s not super-represented as a primary position, but Pete Rose, Edgar Martinez, Jim Thome, Paul Molitor, and Harmon Killebrew all logged reasonable amounts of time at 3B (more than 400 games apiece and more than 500 for all but Thome).

Joseph

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

That’s another reason people should vote for Nettles.

Hub Kid

8 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

I keep wondering about center field- we only have 6 in the COG, which is the same as 3B. Looking ahead, I see that number is pretty sure to get to 8, with Tris Speaker in 1888, and Ty Cobb in 1886.

David Horwich

8 years ago

By the by, now that we’re through 100 rounds, is there anyone out there who’s 100% satisfied with all 100 of our selections so far? For myself, there are around 1/2 dozen electees about whom I have at least some reservations – Boudreau, Grich, Ryan, Walker, Whitaker, and I suppose Koufax. I’m not saying I firmly believe all of them don’t belong, but I wouldn’t feel a great injustice had been done were any or all of them not among the elect. I expect there will be another selection or two I don’t entirely agree with by the time we’ve… Read more »

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

I might be inclined to add a few more names to your list of doubtfuls, including Gordon, Killebrew, Cochrane, Campy and Greenberg.

But, having said that, you have to ask yourself, if not them then which of the those on the outside would be a better choice. I suspect the number of doubtfuls would then shrink quite a bit, which probably just indicates that the 119 spots we are trying to fill may be a few more than are actually necessary to capture the truly great that, in whatever manner, separate themselves from the next tier.

David P

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

I would add Ford and Rivera to the list of doubtfuls. And even some players that I voted for like Murray, Biggio and Alomar.

Sure Murray and Biggio have 65+ WAR but they both had 12,000+ PAs. Why is that necessarily better/greater than, for example. Bobby Bonds and Jimmy Wynn, who both had 55+ WAR in 4,000 fewer PAs?

Hartvig

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Of course if you remove Cochrane & Campanella then we are left with only Hartnett & presumably Pudge Rodriguez as viable COG candidates (I’d say outside of those 2 our best options on the horizon are Wally Schang in this round & Roger Bresnahan in 1879) at catcher. Plus, with out the 2 you mentioned- and I would assume Hartnett as well- we would only have a single catcher who played prior to the end of WW2 and only 2 that played prior to 1968. You are right about 3rd base- with probably only 2 viable candidates remaining in Nettles… Read more »

mosc

8 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

My bottom would be:
1) Waner
2) Killebrew
3) Walker
Followed by god help you trying to sort out:
4) Alomar
5) Whitaker
6) Grich
7) Sandberg
8) Biggio

8 years ago

Answers to trivia questions:

#8: Rogers Hornsby

#9: Steve Carlton in 1980

#13: Junior Gilliam

#19: Hal Newhouser in 1944

#21: Grover Cleveland “Pete” Alexander in 1911

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to JS

All correct.

8 years ago

Ashburn Reuschel Nettles

Andy

8 years ago

Goose Goslin, Kevin Brown, Hoyt Wilhelm

Paul E

8 years ago

Winfield, Allen, Coveleski.
Pitching WAR, ages 27 – 32:
50.8 Johnson
49.2 Mathewson
49.1 Ed Walsh
48.0 Grove
47.4 Alexander
46.6 Pedro J. Martinez
46.4 Coveleski
45.5 Maddux
43.3 Seaver
1964 – 1974 Allen:
1st OPS+ (165)
1st oWAR (68.3)
1st BtRuns (469.82)
1st BtWins (48.54)
2nd OPS (Aaron .941; Allen .940)
4th Runs Created
5th BABIP (.343)
5th WAA (35.9)
6th WAR (58.3)

Paul E

8 years ago

Chris C

8 years ago

Eckersley, Ashburn, Dick Allen

BryanM

8 years ago

brown , winfield, sisler

T-Bone

8 years ago

Reuschel, D. Allen, Paige

Darien

8 years ago

Drysdale, Wilhelm, and Eckersley

Dr. Doom

8 years ago

Hey everyone!

I’m going to be on vacation for the next ten or so days, starting tomorrow. I don’t know what my availability will be for posting updates, so just be aware of that. Anyway, here’s my ballot – all pitchers:

Kevin Brown
Luis Tiant
Don Drysdale

KalineCountry

8 years ago

Goose Goslin
George Sisler
Satchel Paige

J.R.

8 years ago

Sisler, Paige, Winfield.

aweb

8 years ago

Kevin Brown
Nettles
Sisler

Voomo Zanzibar

8 years ago

I know I want Wilhelm in. Beyond that this is a delightful jumble. Here’s a fairly arbitrary stab at sorting it out… ____________________________________________________ Seasons above 5 WAR (not including batting for Pitchers): 7 … Ashburn 7 … Covelski 6 … Sisler 6 … Goslin 6 … Drysdale 6 … Nettles 6 … Dick Allen 6 … Big Daddy 6 … Tiant 5 … Shocker 5 … Winfield 5 … Lyons 5 … Brown 4 … Groh 4 … Eck 4 … Dawson 3 … Burns 3 … Smokey Joe 2 … Dauss 2 … Hartnett 1 … Wilhelm 1 …… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

8 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Seasons above 6 WAR:

7 … Coveleski

5 … Ashburn
5 … Kevin Brown

4 … Shocker
4 … Goslin
4 … Sisler
4 … Dick Allen
4 … Tiant
4 … Dawson

3 … Drysdale

2 … Big Daddy
2 … Nettles
2 … Eck

1 … Lyons
1 … Wilhelm
1 … Winfield

0 … Hartnett

Voomo Zanzibar

8 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Well, while I’m here…
____

Seasons above 7 WAR:

4 … Stanislaus Kowalewski
4 … Kevin (no nickname) Brown

3 … Wampum Walloper

2 … Urbain Jacques Shockcor
2 … Gorgeous George
2 … Put Put
2 … El Tiante
2 … Puff
2 … Eck
2 … The Hawk

1 … Leon Goslin
1 … Sunday Teddy
1 … Big D
1 … Old Sarge
1 … Big Daddy
1 … Winny

Voomo Zanzibar

8 years ago

Vote:

Richie Ashburn
Stan Coveleski
Hoyt Wilhelm

David W

8 years ago

Satchel Paige, Andre Dawson, Stan Coveleskie.

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Goslin, Sisler, Hartnett

brent

8 years ago

Goslin, Brown, Coveleski

David Horwich

8 years ago

Through 21 ballots (#44):

9 – Sisler
6 – Brown, Goslin, Paige*
====================25% (6)
5 – Ashburn*, Coveleski*
3 – Allen*, Eckersley, Hartnett, Wilhelm, Winfield*
====================10% (3)
2 – Dawson*, Nettles, Reuschel*
1 – Burns*, Drysdale*, Groh*, Schang*, Tiant*
0 – Lyons*, Shocker*

Dr. Doom

8 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

David, you might want to re-tabulate. Drysdale has two votes, that much I know for sure. Darien and I voted for him on consecutive ballots. I don’t have time to do a full audit, but I know that’s something that needs correcting. Perhaps there are other issues, too?

David Horwich

8 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Ah, yes – 2 votes for Drysdale, 1 for Dawson. Simple transposition error on my part.

Hartvig

8 years ago

I think both Groh & Wood were profiled in the Glory of Their Times and Bill James wrote some interesting stuff about Jack Fournier and Hank Gowdy in the HBA. I could be sold on Coveleski but I think it best if he have to fight it out in the trenches with Brown & Tiant & everyone else for a few rounds. He has an advantage in peak seasons but they were also from a different time & any extenuating factors work against him. Since I voted for him in the Redemption round it would be impossible for me to… Read more »

e pluribus munu

8 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

If “Glory of Their Times” is a benchmark for you, Hartvig (good taste), you’ll find Coveleski in there too. He seems a taciturn man, the opposite of Groh. I’m having some trouble with this ballot, and Coveleski is an indication why. Although I’ve always liked him (historically – I’m not that old), I never think of him as among the greatest pitchers. In BBWAA votes, Coveleski peaked at around 15% – even Smoky Joe got higher. Yet I think Coveleski is about in a class with Sisler, Hartnett, Goslin, and Lyons, all of whom seem to me among the most… Read more »

David P

8 years ago

Reply to e pluribus munu

EPM: “Their candidacy is an accident of the way Birtelcom conceived the CoG election process.” This is why I’ve decided to stop voting. The process never made sense to begin with and it get worse as we go along. It’s not just the Paige thing, which I strongly disagree with (sorry!). It’s also that I have no idea how to discriminate between the players on the ballot. They’re from all eras of baseball and all positions. I don’t know how to have that discussion. I want to discuss Nettles vs Bell vs Boyer vs Bando. I want to discuss Edmonds… Read more »

mosc

8 years ago

Reply to David P

the HOF vote has ALWAYS been a complete mismash with rules that have exceptions and are so vague that they’re near meaningless anyway. This is not unusual compared to how any long standing league has considered it’s all time greats.

David P

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

And the point of this exercise was to IMPROVE upon the process, NOT to run through another mishmash process that leads to convoluted decisions and results.

mosc

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

I suppose we could do one where we had agreed upon targets per position and then had like SS round 3 where you voted in Cal or something and then round 4 would proceed without regards to birth year.

David P

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

Honestly, I think the biggest problem was deciding how many inductees there should be ahead of time.

We all know the HOF process has been flawed. So why bind ourselves by their number of inductees? We should have simply voted in however many people we wanted to, whether that was 50 or 150.

What I see going on right now are guys getting elected with limited support/passion simply because someone has to get elected.

e pluribus munu

8 years ago

Reply to David P

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, David. No need to apologize about Paige – I recognize the counter-argument. Birtelcom’s plan (and I wish he were online to explain it) was an experiment – to see what would result if the historical forces that generated today’s HoF BBWAA were reversed, viewing the direction of historical chronology as an accident. The idea was to do our best and see what happened, not to create an ideal Counter-Hall. The stipulation that we vote for three players – no more, no less – was, if I recall, a vehicle for ensuring a robust pool of… Read more »

David P

8 years ago

Reply to e pluribus munu

Thanks for the response EPM! Appreciate the well thought out reply.

Obviously there’s no perfect way to determine baseball’s greats. I just think this particular way hasn’t worked out the way it was envisioned and has left at least some people feeling quite frustrated with the process. I’m not sure there’s any way to fix/change things at this point. Obviously some people will continue to vote but personally I’ve lost interest and have 0 desire for future participation.

Hartvig

8 years ago

Reply to e pluribus munu

epm- I’ve already posted one long response that just disappeared into the ether but your thoughtful post deserves a response. First, thanks for reminding me that Coveleski was in The Glory… The moment I saw what you had written the story of his brother & the boloney came back to mind. That chapter will be part of my bedtime reading tonight. And I agree with you about Smokey Joe. Without his injury it’s not out of the question that in 1912 & 13 that 4 of the 10 greatest pitchers in the history of the game (Johnson, Alexander & Mathewson… Read more »

Dave Humbert

8 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Hartvig, You hit it on the head mentioning that when the ballot is wide open (no obvious candidate) that the fun choices and arguments arise. I see David P’s point that he’d like to compare Nettles/Bell/Boyer/Bando together, but voting patterns and backlog limits tend to prevent such matchups (though during redemption rounds these points could be brought up). Some voters go with 3 they believe are COG, others go with 1 to get in and 2 to stick around, and some go all strategic to keep up backlog competition. I know I’ve had rounds where I did not feel good… Read more »

8 years ago

Goslin, Tiant, Eck

David Horwich

8 years ago

Goslin, Hartnett, Nettles

JEV

8 years ago

Goslin, Hartnett, Drysdale

Steve

8 years ago

Hoyt Wilhelm, Smoky Joe Wood, George Sisler

mosc

8 years ago

I don’t understand why people love Goslin, vote for Ashburn, and Dawson gets no love. They all have similar career arcs except for the generational differences. It’s not like If Dawson was born in Goslin’s era people would have ever heard of him. I actually like Dawson the best of the three but they’re all so similar statistically that the strong voting differences baffle me. NYEAR 1 (best season): 7.9, 7.5, 7.1 (D,G,A) Dawson by 5% NYEAR 2: 15.3, 13.3, 13.2 (D,A,G) Dawson by 15% NYEAR 3: 22.1, 19.6, 19.4 (D,G,A) Dawson by 13% NYEAR 4: 29.0, 26.0. 25.0 (D,G,A)… Read more »

mosc

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

COG outfielders who couldn’t match all 3 guys in a peak 7 year period:
Larry Walker (40.5)
Tim Raines (39.4)
Paul Waner (38.5) <- nudge nudge
Tony Gwynn (35.4)

I also like Dawson better than Winfield even giving him a healthy dose of RFIELD he comes up short. Lofton though, very surprisingly to me clears all mentioned names.

David P

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

Well here I agree with you Mosc. I don’t understand it either. It’s another reason why I’ve given up on voting. Why Goslin and Ashburn and not Dawson and Winfield? Or Reggie Smith and Edmonds who aren’t even on the ballot? Hard for me to see any difference between these guys. I’d at least like to discuss these guys together (as well as several others) but instead we’re going to rush to elect one of them. Granted someone has to be elected but the vote at least should be a lot closer.

mosc

8 years ago

Reply to David P

Reggie Smith falls well short of these guys to me. His 7 year peak is 36.5 WAR beating out only the much more hit focused Gwynn. Gwynn’s only here because of his historic BA, AB’s, and historical significance. Edmonds isn’t helped by the fact that his stats baloon after turning 30 in the heart of the steroids era then drop off the cliff right when testing starts. His also lower 7-year peak (37.6) comes ages 30-36 which is a lot older than anybody else we’ve mentioned save Mr Walker (hmm?) 7-year peak starting ages: 30: Edmonds, Walker …some syringe room…… Read more »

David P

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

That’s fine Mosc. I just threw them all out there because there fairly similar in total WAR and yet are being treated very differently in the voting process for no apparent reason. I`d like to discuss why BEFORE we start voting any of them in. But I realize that’s not going to happen.

brp

8 years ago

Reply to David P

So because you don’t like how other people vote, you’re not going to vote? You do realize that defeats the entire purpose of voting, right?

Voomo Zanzibar

8 years ago

Reply to brp

There’s only 50 or 60 of us here. The voting portion of the project is going to be imperfect. What we are accomplishing is to have intelligent and respectful discussions.

mosc

8 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Be nice if somebody could discuss why they think Goslin belongs over the other outfielders on this list let alone the rest of the crowd. I can’t fathom it. Especially when you consider he played his entire career pre-integration and the level of competition wasn’t exactly at it’s peak I don’t think he stands out.

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

@135

Goslin is the only player with a career of fewer than 10000 PA to accumulate the following:

2700+ H
1800+ 1B
500+ 2B
170+ 3B
200+ HR
1400+ R
1600+ RBI
.300+ BA
.400+ wOBA
125+ RC+

mosc

8 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

and I’ll be damned if there aren’t 500 such individual records adjusting the numbers of career AB’s and the other stats to cherry pick one guy.

David P

8 years ago

Reply to brp

Brp – Might have been worth your while to read my comment above (#64) before responding. As for “purpose”, I’m not trying to create any purpose here. There’s certainly no obligation to vote. Some people do, others don’t. I voted for a while but I’ve lost interest in doing so for a variety of reasons.

mosc

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

Here’s the full NYEAR25 averaged consecutively and non-consecutively for all the mentioned outfielders:

Walker: 5.17
Lofton: 4.90
Waner: 4.88
Dawson: 4.85
Raines: 4.80
Goslin: 4.80
Gwynn: 4.78
Ashburn: 4.78
Edmonds: 4.58
Smith: 4.47
Winfield: 4.41
Dwight Evans: 4.34

I’d take Lofton, Dawson, and Raines as my starting outfield (and COG worthy threesome) out of that range. I’m glad Dawson got on the ballot but while Goose Goslin is in serious contention he can’t make the 10% cut!

mosc

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

I didn’t include other positions but it’s worth noting these guys:
Sisler 4.83
and
Nettles 4.85

Kirk

8 years ago

Wilhelm, Reuschel and Sisler

mosc

8 years ago

VOTE!

Hartnett apparently has no chance of winning or losing a round so:

Paige, Nettles, Dawson

Mike L

8 years ago

I hate to ask an obvious question, but since John Autin posted a piece on March 19th, every single post except for one (Brian O’Connor in April) has come from the surely brilliant but certainly exhausted Doug. Realistically, is this going to be the content going forward?

e pluribus munu

8 years ago

Reply to Mike L

I’d like to second Mike’s question. I can’t imagine Doug keeping this up alone. He’s obviously had to give up pinch hitting for John when it comes to Game Notes, and managing the CoG process has really reduced the research pieces he’s so good at. The CoG was a great addition to a lively research and discussion page, but it isn’t of the caliber or frequency required for a central theme, and without Game Notes, or the equivalent (if there can be one), the actual baseball season is passing almost unnoticed here. Moreover, John’s abrupt disappearance is, I’m sure, a… Read more »

David P

8 years ago

Reply to e pluribus munu

Mike L and EPM – I think the bigger issue is the disappearance of the site owner. That means no new/replacement authors. And of course ongoing site problems. I also think it would work better if there were forums in addition to authors. That way, we wouldn’t be relegated to being passive consumers of information. Anyone who had anything interesting to share could start a thread on that topic. I know there’s been some discussion of perhaps moving to a new website. And I found a great name and thought about buying it. But honestly, I don’t think I have… Read more »

e pluribus munu

8 years ago

Reply to David P

Perhaps Andy (if he’s still monitoring) or Doug could post a string devoted to discussion of the site itself, filling us all in on any information concerning the current situation we may not have, and giving us all a shot at indicating what we’d like to see happen, and whether we’d like to play some role in a realignment of the site.

Mike L

8 years ago

Reply to e pluribus munu

EPM and David, I don’t want to be overly critical–I was more expressing concern. The site belongs to the owner, and we are consumers of it, but it’s the owner’s choice as to how and what to present. It’s very hard to produce high quality content, and even harder to put out a steady stream of it to attract new readers and retain old ones. I have a similar problem on my own blog (not baseball, politics)–three of my original co-authors are now just readers and behind the scenes editors/critics. A blank screen is a scary thing, and research and… Read more »

David P

8 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Mike L: I hear what you’re saying. I just wonder what happens when the site owner no longer participates in the site. Yes, it’s nice that the site is still made available but I think it severely limits what can happen with the site.

As I mentioned, I think having a forum could be helpful. That way people can start new discussions without having to write an entire article.

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to e pluribus munu

John was working on a piece earlier this month (I saw a preview). Hopefully he will return at some point. As for other authors, I’ll see if Andy wants to create new id’s for contributors. Failing that, I’m happy to post “guest” pieces that anyone would like to contribute. These can be sent to doughhs@hotmail.ca. The Twitter (https://twitter.com/HighHeatStats) site is available for chat but, of course, is not conducive (because of comment length limits) to the elaborate or well-reasoned arguments that we often get into. There used to be a Live Chat feature on this site, but was removed because… Read more »

e pluribus munu

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug, Thanks for the update on John. It’s very good to know he’s still engaged at some level, and that he’s ok (the abruptness of his disappearance was unsettling). I think that what you propose – offering others a chance to post guest pieces and a chat area, perhaps specifically focusing on the events of the current season – would be a good start. I do think a string dedicated to discussion of what sorts of items this community most wants to see would be a good idea. Among the types of items I can call to mind that HHS… Read more »

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to e pluribus munu

The game notes are fun to do, but it takes soooo much time to unearth and verify quirky things about the games (that, hopefully, are also somewhat germane to the outcome of the game). I have no idea how John did them regularly on a nightly basis. I struggled just to do them twice a week. Just not something I can manage on a regular basis.

I was thinking about maybe a series (or two) of the week. Perhaps readers could suggest matchups each week ahead to focus on?

e pluribus munu

8 years ago

Reply to e pluribus munu

John’s Game Notes were a new genre of art form, Doug. It was a gift, but a relentless task. I worried he’d burn out, and I suppose he did. It was gallant of you to keep the flame alive as long as you did.

mosc

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

I think a weekly chat thread during the season would be ideal. Just some place to go to for more day to day basis.

I’ll try to put together some content. I don’t have access to the paid services to fully do my homework though. Maybe I should pay up!

CursedClevelander

8 years ago

Reply to mosc

I’m just about to re-up my BB P-I subscription, so if I change my password to something I don’t use on any other sites, I’d be glad to lend the account to anybody on HHS that needs it to do research for new content.

dr-remulak

8 years ago

Nettles, Goslin, Winfield.

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Allen, Dawson, Tiant

David Horwich

8 years ago

Here’s what I have through 31 ballots (#106):

11 – Sisler
10 – Goslin
9 – Paige*
====================25% (8)
6 – Brown, Nettles
5 – Ashburn*, Coveleski*, Hartnett, Wilhelm
4 – Allen*, Eckersley, Winfield*
====================10% (4)
3 – Dawson*, Drysdale*, Reuschel*, Tiant*
2 – Lyons*, Wood*
1 – Burns*, Groh*, Schang*
0 – Shocker*

Artie Z.

8 years ago

Paige, Drysdale, and Sisler

brp

8 years ago

Keeping guys on ballot. Vote for:

Ashburn
Dawson
Reuschel

Joseph

8 years ago

Nettles, Sisler, Winfield

Josh

8 years ago

George Sisler, Gabby Hartnett, Dave Winfield

Mike HBC

8 years ago

Paige, Eck, Shocker

Luis G

8 years ago

Luis Tiant, Dave Winfield, Graig Nettles.