Baseball Mount Rushmores

A tweet by ESPN baseball writer Buster Olney has me thinking. Buster tweeted a little earlier:

It’s an easy time to offer sympathy for the longtime Yankees closer, who injured himself this evening shagging balls in the outfield before a game, though I think Olney is going a little far here. I don’t see how anyone other than Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, and Mickey Mantle are the Bronx Bombers’ equivalent of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Teddy Roosevelt, and Abe Lincoln. At most, Mariano Rivera is Harry Truman, the best relief president in American history, but no one who deserved to have his visage retroactively chiseled into a mountain.

I think Olney’s idea could be extended throughout the majors. For my favorite team, the Giants, I go Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Willie Mays, and Barry Bonds, and if I’m being a homer, I also find a spot on that mountain for Will Clark. He’s my all-time favorite player and one of my childhood heroes, though I’ll concede that for purposes of presidential metaphors, Clark might be Woodrow Wilson, another man whose talent and potential exceeded his accomplishments and who some say was a racist.

To anyone reading: Which four players are on your team’s Baseball Mount Rushmore?

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nightfly
11 years ago

Love this concept. For the Mets, I think that I would go Seaver, Strawberry, Gooden, and … that fourth one is the tough spot, isn’t it. HoJo? Alfonzo? Carter? Hernandez? Piazza? I hope that Wright will eventually make the discussion moot, but until then, I’ve got a Rushmore with only three guys on it.

nightfly
11 years ago
Reply to  nightfly

On second thought, I think Carlos Beltran has a claim in there also. I can’t believe I overlooked him.

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago
Reply to  nightfly

Nightfly, I await, with bated breath, John Autin’s weigh-in on the Mets’ mountaintop sculptures.

nightfly
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

Absolutely, Neil. He’ll have a good case for the candidates as well. I’d love to see it.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

Exhale, Neil! I’m picking my Mets not strictly by WAR, but also by iconic stature. By both standards, one peak of this mountain looms far above the rest, and therefore I’m blatantly cheating and picking 5 guys: Seaver Gooden Strawberry Hernandez Piazza I’ve elevated Piazza and Keith over a couple of others because each represented light at the end of a tunnel. Koos had a longer peak than Gooden and slightly more WAR, but — while this is not his fault — I think a lot of Mets fans wouldn’t even know him if they saw him, so bright was… Read more »

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

No fair picking five, John. πŸ™‚

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Gooden, Straw, Keith & Piazza are the Mount Rushmore. Seaver is the Crazy Horse Memorial.

http://crazyhorsememorial.org/

Steven
Steven
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

How about Ed Kranepool? 18 years with the Mets. At the very least, a Lifetime Achievement Award.

birtelcom
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  nightfly

For the Mets’ fourth, I would give serious consideration to Jerry Koosman, on the theory that a World Series championship is an important consideration (doesn’t totally trump all other considerations but is an important factor), so I’d be tempted to take the two best from the two championship clubs: Straw and Doc, and Seaver and Koos. Conveniently, those are also four top WAR generators for the Mets as well. Wright is competitive with all but Seaver when he adds (a) a few more all-star type seasons, and/or (b)a ring.

John Sharp
11 years ago
Reply to  nightfly

I say for the Mets, David Wright will one day be right there in the 4th spot.

vivaeljason
vivaeljason
11 years ago
Reply to  John Sharp

That’s all dependent on whether or not the Mets re-sign him after this year, though. God willing, they will.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  nightfly

My suggestion for the Mets (and with a nod of appreciation to E Pluribus Munu for suggesting my avatar for the Tigers memorial because of his unique appearance) would be Casey Stengel. Having followed baseball since the franchise was created I can attest that no one was more associated with the magical early days of the franchise than he.

Shping
Shping
11 years ago
Reply to  Graham

Good a place as any to make my Dodger picks, since no one else has: Robinson and Reese for sure, then Scully, and… dang that 4th pick IS tough… i’ll take LaSorda over Koufax, just barely. Sandy gets a statue of himself somewhere else, preserving that unique mystique. Tommy was Dodger Blue all the way. So:

Robinson
Reese
LaSorda
Scully
*Koufax

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Shping

I would split the Dodgers into Brooklyn and Los Angeles and even then you would have to leave off so many well qualified candidates

Brooklyn- Duke Snider, Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, Gil Hodges, PeeWee Reese, Zach Wheat, Dazzy Vance, Uncle Robbie (Wilbert Robinson) not to mention the imortal Babe Herman

Los Angeles- Koufax & Drysdale of course or maybe Garvey, Lopes, Russell & Cey and Don Sutton, Fernando Valenzuela & the Bulldog, Piazza, maybe even Matt Kemp and Clayton Kershaw plus an old favorite of mine, Junior Gilliam, Plus you’ve got both Tommy LaSorda and Walter Alston.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
11 years ago
Reply to  Shping

I’m with Hartvig that the two Dodger identities can’t be fused into one mountain. And Brooklyn – although like many old franchises having great players spread out in different eras – has an unusual isolateed center of gravity in the post-War era and the core players of the 1947-56 teams that were integrated in more ways than one. So if a Mt. Brookmore were carved, I think it wouldn’t include even great players like Wheat and Vance (a prefiguring of Koufax in some ways). You’d need Robinson, Reese, and Campanella. Snider was their big power (and Furillo my personal favorite),… Read more »

MikeD
MikeD
11 years ago
Reply to  nightfly

No, no, no. For those of us who go back far enough, one of the Mets has to be Eddie Kranepool. No fly-by-nighters like Piazza need apply. πŸ™‚

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
11 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

Eddie has my vote, Mike. All those years, it felt as though the spirit of Marvelous Marv had never really left and was somehow there in Eddie, guzzling champaign with real ballplayers (did that really happen?). First-year Mets, Eddie at 17 and Casey at 71: a perfect couple. Put them between Tom and Doc and you’ve got the cognitive dissonance that is the essence of Mets.

Howard
Howard
11 years ago
Reply to  nightfly

Teams like the Mets should wait until they have enough true superstars before they carve out their Mt Rushmore. For now they can build one with a bust of Tom Seaver with enough room left to add four current or future players.

Adam
Adam
11 years ago

For the Brew Crew I think it has to be Yount, Molitor, Gantner, and probably Fielder. Though Braun would most likely take Fielder’s spot after another year or two.

Shping
Shping
11 years ago
Reply to  Adam

Geez, after 1-2, they really don’t yet have a wealth of great names to choose from, esp. pitchers; just a lot of “good” or “not yet”. It’s tempting to put Aaron up there on largely ceremonial grounds (incl. 2 yrs as a Brewer), but i think i’d add the amazing Uecker instead!

Brian
11 years ago
Reply to  Shping

I have to think Cecil Cooper deserves some consideration.

Dan McCloskey
11 years ago
Reply to  Brian

I agree. Cooper ahead of Gantner and Fielder, no doubt. I’d go with Yount, Molitor, Cooper and Higuera.

John Sharp
11 years ago
Reply to  Shping

I agree, Bob Uecker, for all he did for the Brewers, like Ernie Harwell of the Tigers, would be a Brewers immortal.

Adam
Adam
11 years ago
Reply to  John Sharp

Uecker is def. on there for an organization standpoint and I must admit I did not put him on there as I was thinking of just “players” as it was the original question.

Shping
Shping
11 years ago
Reply to  John Sharp

So Graham, since you started this wonderful thread, what’s your ruling on non-players? Seems like in some cases, they’re very appropriate: Uecker, maybe Harwell, Veeck (Browns, Indians, ChiSox?), McGraw, C.Mack, C.Finley, H.Caray, maybe even Scully should crack the tough Dodger lineup?

And wow, no Dodger fans out there? If no one else does, i’ll take a crack at it soon.

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago

Graham, you are only allowed four sculptures, not five! πŸ™‚

Will Clark has to go. πŸ™‚

In the long history of the Giants you have no one on your Mt. Rushmore before the 1960’s except Mel Ott?

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago
Reply to  Graham

Nice call, Graham. It is tough to pick your top four when your team’s history extends back well over a century

Drew
Drew
11 years ago
Reply to  Graham

I would agree completely with Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Willie Mays, and Barry Bonds but not will clark as my fifth(if you are to add a fifth) . My choice for the fifth giant would probably have to be willie mccovey he had 19 great seasons for the giants and contributed to some great team. Never got that elusive ring was his only downfall.

Lukehart80
11 years ago
Reply to  Graham

You could fudge things a bit on your Giants choices by saying you’re building a Mount Rushmore for just the San Francisco version.

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago
Reply to  Lukehart80

But Lukehart80, that ducks all the difficult choices. πŸ™‚

That’s like saying there should be separate Expos and Nationals Mt Rushmores!

Lukehart80
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

I hear you, but if you want Will Clark, you’ve got to duck something. Besides, separate NY/SF Rushmore’s would each still be more impressive than many other franchises could build.

John Sharp
11 years ago
Reply to  Graham

Good call on Bill Terry. He is a great old NY Giant, and I had the pleasure of meeting him some 30 years ago.

John Sharp
11 years ago
Reply to  Graham

When I see teams like the Giants, and the Braves, I think you almost have to separate the city’s. For the NY Giants, until 1957, then SF after. Mays makes both squads, like Aaron does for Milwaukee/Atlanta. To choose only 4 for N.L. teams that go back into the 1800’s, is almost impossible. Also, Eddie Matthews would be on both the Boston and the Milwaukee Braves.

dayf
11 years ago

First three are easy – Aaron, Maddux, Spahn. The last one is tough. Mathews, Niekro, Murphy, Glavine and Smoltz are all worthy. I think I’ll give the last spot on the mountain to Chipper since he’ll be the only one out of the crew to spend his entire career with the Braves.

Baseballs Deep
11 years ago
Reply to  dayf

Aaron, Chipper, Spahn and Niekro. Hard to leave off Dale Murphy and Eddie Mathews though. I picked Niekro over Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz because he had the highest WAR, made more starts and won more games than any of them in a Braves uniform.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  Baseballs Deep

If I were to pick an all-Atlanta-Brave four, Niekro would have made the cut for me over Glavine and Smoltz for the same reasons you listed, along with Aaron, Chipper, and Maddux. But I think for the Braves team overall Maddux’ 3 Cy Young years and two of the most dominant ERA+ years in the history of baseball(’94 and ’95) and a World Series ring trump Niekro’s phenomenal longevity by a nose.

bstar
11 years ago

Great call, dayf! Hard to argue with your personal four-I think I would pick the same. Graham, once again another thought-provoking article, one which I predict will eventually pass the 100-comment threshold that has become the norm with your writings.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Oops, it seems once again, like many others, I’ve completely forgotten about Eddie Mathews. It’s weird but almost every time I try to list all the guys in the 500+ HR club by rote, I invariably forget Mathews. His 98+ WAR is a mark Chipper won’t reach, but Jones’ awesome .300/.400/.500 slash line is hard to ignore.

John Sharp
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Matthews only guy would could be on Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta. He’s the only one to play in all 3 cities.

Kevin
Kevin
11 years ago

For my beloved Blue Jays, the first two spots are automatic: Alomar, the Jays’ only HOF member, and Stieb, (arguably)the best pitcher in franchise history, leading the team in many categories. The next two slots aren’t as easy to fill. Roy Halladay, you would think would be one, but you could make a case for Tom Henke. Carlos Delgado was very good for a long time for the Jays, but Vernon Wells is up there in the franchise leaders in many offensive categories.

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

Don’t know your age, Kevin, but, with respect, you can’t put Vernon up with Moseby.

Graham, do you figure post-season success should factor into the chiselled sculptures for our team?

Shping
Shping
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

If postseason counts, i would think the Jays fans would want to add…….. Joe Carter?

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago
Reply to  Shping

Now, Shping, you are just being a dirt-disturber.

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

Shping, forgot the smiley faces with #38. πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚

See my #38 below.

Shping
Shping
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

Ha ha, no, really didnt mean to unearth the Carter stone. And actually, Graham, beat me to it. But i am curious to see if Jays fans would agree. Otherwise, how about Garth Iorg? He just sounds like a guy who should be carved in stone.

nightfly
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

If the postseason counts for that much, then the Jays have to have Mitch Williams on their Rushmore.

(How’s that for disturbing the dirt, Neil? πŸ™‚ )

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

I’ll put kelly Gruber on the Blue Jays’Rushmore, but only because he was one of my all time favorite players.

Jimbo
Jimbo
11 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

Been a Blue Jays fan since 1985

Stieb
Halladay
Alomar
Delgado

Hard not putting Carter on there, even though ten years later I realized he was nowhere near as good as baseball told us he was. The home run is just so iconic.

Jimbo
Jimbo
11 years ago
Reply to  Jimbo

Honourable mention – Tony Fernandez (he’d be my 5th place for the Jays)

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago

We all wear our baseball caps on our sleeve in this blog.

OK, I’ll take a shot….. Dave Steib, Tony Fernandez, Carlos Delgado, Lloyd Moseby.

Kevin
Kevin
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

I’m 38. I can’t believe that I forgot Tony Fernandez. I was thinking about the Shaker too, but I wasn’t sure how to account for team success in my mind. Carter did cross my mind, but given the advances in sabermetrics, I decided to leave him off. Sustained excellence for the team would qualify yyou for consideration, I think.

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

Kevin, as an aside, have you posted frequently in HHS under your current display name? I don’t recall your previous comments but maybe I missed them.

Anyway, welcome aboard.

It’s hard to include the much-maligned Joe Carter on any top four list, even for a young franchise like the Blue Jays.

Kevin
Kevin
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

Thanks for the welcome! I got to this site through GB, and I tend to reply more often on Twitter. Funny, I ended up solving a few of the baseball anagrams that were put up, and checked on the site ever since. ( I’ve basted= Dave Stieb) Hopefully you can fill in my Expos starting post. I’m not old enough to remember Rick Monday or Ellis Valentine.

bluejaysstatsgeek
bluejaysstatsgeek
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

I’d say Alomar over Moseby. Steib, Fernandez, Delgado and Alomar. It’s hard not to put Hentgen and Halliday up there, and as suggested, Carter, for the “Touch ’em all, Joe!” moment, not for his entire body of work.

There are probably some that might argue that the four greatest Jays of all time are Gillick, Beeston, Cheek and Gaston.

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago

But, bjstatsgeek, are you putiing Alomar on the Blue Jays’ mountain based on post-season exploits and peak value or based on longevity?

It’s hard for me not to penalize Alomar for his spitting incident even though he and Hirschbeck have long since reconciled about it.

Also, it’s hard not to award rock sculptures to Toronto franchise players who brought the team from expansion status to playoff contender….. the players from the ’80’s. The 1980’s were the greatest decade in franchise history, were they not?

bluejaysstatsgeek
bluejaysstatsgeek
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

He’s the only Jay in Cooperstown wearing the cap. Only Molitor, Rolen and Thomas have higher career totals for WAR among position players and none of them played for the Jays long enough to be considered for a Rushmore honour. (Halladay and Clemens are also ahead of him and Halladay is part of my selection of four.) As for the Hirshbeck incident, it was a mistake, a huge mistake. Why I am willing to not penalize him for the mistake is because of the way Robbie and John have dealt with it since. All of us make mistakes; its what… Read more »

bluejaysstatsgeek
bluejaysstatsgeek
11 years ago

Sorry, Hallady is not on my list. My mistake. Halladay’s career WAR is about 10 ahead of Stieb’s, so it’s hard not to put Halladay there.

Lukehart80
11 years ago

For the Indians, I’d go with Bob Feller, Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, and Jim Thome, but Larry Doby would be a hell of a pick too.

Pat Mackin
Pat Mackin
11 years ago
Reply to  Graham

For the true flavor of the Indians’ futility though I’d have to go with Charlie Spikes, Sam McDowell, Jhonny Peralta and Matt LaPorta. πŸ™‚

Lukehart80
11 years ago
Reply to  Pat Mackin

The futility monument MUST include Cory Snyder.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
11 years ago
Reply to  Lukehart80

Ugh, I once traded my Donruss Canseco rookie for 8 of those Cory Snyder ’85 Topps Olympic cards. Was sure he was the real deal.

Lukehart80
11 years ago
Reply to  Graham

I can see the case for Boudreau too. For me though, Feller represents the 1948 team, allowing the great 90’s teams to also be represented with Thome involved.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Lukehart80

What?

No love for Rick Vaughn or Willie Mays Hays?

Lukehart80
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Much love for them both, and for Jake Taylor too. He was the heart and soul of those teams.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  Lukehart80

No Pedro Cerrano? Let’s try and not offend Jobu here, people. I may have to do a shot of rum to restore his honor. πŸ™‚

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

It’s very bad to disrespect Jobu, it’s very bad.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Yo, barkeep, Jobu needs a refill.

Jason Z
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

“I like Jesus very much, but he no help
me hit curveball.”

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

“Are you sayin Jesus Christ can’t hit a curveball?”

donburgh
donburgh
11 years ago

For the Pirates – Wagner, Clemente, Stargell, and Mazeroski. However, without 1960 game 7, Big Poison could get in ahead of Maz. No pitchers anywhere on the radar.

Jason C
Jason C
11 years ago

The Reds, I think I will go with Frank Robinson, Pete Rose, Johnny Bench, and Barry Larkin. I would love to add Joe Morgan. Its tough, but I went with players who came up with team.

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason C

Jason, no Tony Perez ahead of Frank Robinson? Just based on years with the Reds and statistics.

Jason Z
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason C

Old timers would want a nod to Ed Roush. He was the most popular Reds player for over fifty years. Probably until Johnny Bench.

When Christy Mathewson went to the Reds as manager in 1916, he convinced
John McGraw to part with Ed Roush too. McGraw did it so reluctantly that
he would go on to reacquire Roush ten years later.

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago
Reply to  Jason Z

Jason, you are late to the party in this blog but it is still attracting hits.

Why do so few people think of Ed Roush on the Reds’ mountain face?

John Sharp
11 years ago

This is a great subject, people will always have their guys.

AS a Detroit Tigers fan, my Tigers Mt. Rushmore is Ty Cobb, Charlie Gehringer, Hank Greenberg, and Al Kaline. They are all in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

My 5th choice, as others have done, would be for my favorite Tigers ball player, and my boyhood hero, Bill Freehan, the 1st catcher to win 5 consecutive Gold Gloves, 1965-69.

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago
Reply to  John Sharp

Looking at your list, John, reminds me afresh of what a long and storied history your Tig’s have had.

Alan Trammell couldn’t even get his face etched in stone on your mountain.

John Sharp
11 years ago
Reply to  Neil L.

Hey, Tram was great, but there are also guys like Wahoo Sam Crawford, Harry Heilmann, Mickey Lolich, Hooks Dauss, Goose Goslin, Lou Whittaker, and now Justin Verlander.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
11 years ago
Reply to  John Sharp

The Tigers were always my AL team – the Yankee Killer was a Tiger; I rooted for the home team more often in Tiger Stadium than anywhere else – and I think John’s list is near perfect. But if I had to choose a single 100-foot face for a mountain monument, the Tiger I’d choose wouldn’t be any of them: it would be Hartvig’s avatar. Don’t forget, this is art!

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago

I am both honored and humbled to accept this award on behalf of Don Mossi….

My picks would be Cobb, Greenberg, Kaline and Trammell with profound apologies to so many past and current favorites, especially the late, great Ernie Harwell.

If someone actually does decide to do this, I intend to sell my house and go live in a tent at the site and volunteer my services free of charge just so I can say I had a hand in it.

Brian
11 years ago

I’m a Red Sox fan. I think I’d go with Williams, Yastrzemski, Clemens, and Pedro. Young, Speaker, Foxx, and Boggs were some of the other names I tossed around in my head.

Paul E
Paul E
11 years ago
Reply to  Brian

Malzone
Petrocelli
Zarilla
Conigliaro

Josh
Josh
11 years ago

For the Red Sox…Ted Williams and Carl Yastrzemski are givens. I would still put Roger Clemens on there, and Pedro Martinez belongs also.

birtelcom
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh

I’d vote for a Clemens sculpture on Rushmore just so Mike Piazza could climb up there and hit it with a bat.

John Sharp
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh

Gotta put Babe Ruth on the Red Sox. He was a HOF pitcher before he was a HOF hitter. I know it hurts, but he’s, in my opinion, a huge part of the old BoSox.

Josh
Josh
11 years ago
Reply to  John Sharp

I agree, and I thought about him. Who do you kick off though?

John Sharp
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh

Oh, my BoSox…I would say Teddy Ballgame, Yaz, Clemens, and the Babe.

Lukehart80
11 years ago
Reply to  John Sharp

Pedro was substantially more accomplished as a Red Sox pitcher than Ruth. The rWAR comparison is 48-18 in favor of Pedro, the ERA+ comparison is 191-125. Those aren’t close.

Who knows what we’d think of the pitcher version of Babe if he’d stayed on the mound, or the Red Sox version if he’d stayed in Boston. As is, I don’t see the case for him over Pedro.

Library Dave
Library Dave
11 years ago

For my Astros, two are a given, Biggio and Bagwell. After that our “illustrious” history makes it a little tougher. I think I’d go Ryan and probably Berkman, but Larry Dierker might edge his way on there as a longtime face of the franchise guy (player, manager, broadcaster).

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Library Dave

A couple of other name that spring to mind are the much under appreciated Jose Cruz and the third “Killer Bee”, Lance Berkman

kds
kds
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Toy Cannon. (That was my original post but the system rejected it as too short!) (You want wordy I can give you wordy.)

Erick
Erick
11 years ago

For my Rangers, Nolan Ryan, Pudge Rodriguez, Michael Young, and Tom Grieve for everything he’s done as player, GM, and TV color guy.

JR
JR
11 years ago
Reply to  Erick

How about Juan Gonzalez?

Kevin
Kevin
11 years ago

I might as well make a stab at the other Canadian team, before Jnnah Keri shows up. This one may be easier: Expos: Carter, Raines, Rogers, Staub. Lots of talent passed through this team.Walker, Martinez (Pedor and Dennis -Γ‰l Presidente, Γ‰l Perfecto), Reardon, Wetteland, Wallsch, Pascual Perez (hell, I loved to watch him pitch, dropping that epphus pitch on non-plussed batters), I could go on. Waiting for the older ( and wiser) spos fans to add to where I’ve missed. Funny thing: with strasburg and now Harper, they might make a run for a spot, in time.

John Sharp
11 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

For the Expos, I’d have to include Andre Dawson over Rogers, but then I’m no Expo fan, just an observer. That early 80s OF, Raines, Dawson, Valentine, was one of the best.

bluejaysstatsgeek
bluejaysstatsgeek
11 years ago
Reply to  John Sharp

I’d say Dawson over Staub.

Jimbo
Jimbo
11 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

Vlad Guerrero belongs on the Expos rushmore.

Baseballs Deep
11 years ago
Reply to  Kevin

As much as I love Le Grand Orange, and as deserving as Vladimir is too, I’d have to go with Tim Wallach, who holds the team records for games, at-bats, hits, doubles, RBI and extra base hits.

It’s a little early to start bronzing Strasburg and Harper.

Ocp22
11 years ago

Phillies – I’d go Mike Schmidt, Steve Carlton, Richie Ashburn and Robin Roberts but there are a few guys on the current roster that could easily play themselves on there (Jimmy is already close… He’ll be the all-time franchise hits leader in a couple years… Howard won’t have to do much to pass Whitey either, Utley has meant so much to this franchise and would probably be the fan representative and Hamels, if he doesn’t leave, has a WS MVP). Harry Kalas as the honorable mention.

Christopher
Christopher
11 years ago
Reply to  Ocp22

I agree with Schmidt and Carlton. And I was leaning toward Roberts as well. With Richie Ashburn, I wonder if he isn’t more loved for his time as an annoucer rather than as a player–if we did an announcer Rushmore, it would be Richie and Harry and, out of respect, nobody else. I also agree that Howard, Rollins and Utley may make it some day.

I haven’t ruled out Big Ed Delahanty, either. But, when push comes to shove, I think I would nominate Dick Allen. The fans treated him badly, but he was a great player.

OCP22
11 years ago
Reply to  Christopher

Ashburn was better than people think… better than his numbers suggest. Look at his defensive numbers – the only man prior to the 162 game expansion to surpass 500 putouts in a season (and he did it four times). His arm was also one of the strongest the game has ever seen. All of that to go along with a +.300 career batting average… had he tried to hang around or had he not missed a year to military service, he might have been close to 3,000 hits. The broadacsting doesn’t hurt, though. He’s an icon here because of the… Read more »

Brent
Brent
11 years ago
Reply to  Ocp22

Um, Pete Alexander? I know it would be weird to have 3 pitchers, but I think it has to be Schmidt, Carlton, Alexander and Roberts. BTW, they probably could throw the best all time starting rotation out there. Those three and Halladay and Lee would be nasty.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  Brent

The Braves starting five of Spahn-Maddux-Niekro-Glavine-Smoltz would make the NL East race fun as always.

Dan McCloskey
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Let’s not forget about the Braves’ all-time leader in Pitching WAR (who also happens to be second on their list in Wins) Kid Nichols.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan McCloskey

OK, we can put Nichols in the rotation and bump Smoltzie to the bullpen as our closer!

Dan McCloskey
11 years ago
Reply to  Brent

I think Brent’s on the money here, although it’s tough to pass over Delahanty. Ashburn might be my sixth choice. Utley would be the pick among active players.

OCP22
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan McCloskey

See my comment above… even if you don’t think Ashburn deserves to make the team because of what he meant on the field (underrated, in my opinion; perhaps the greatest defensive center fielder of all-time), his contributions over his career as a player/broadcaster makes Ashburn almost a shoe-in, in my opinion. There’s a reason they call it “Ashburn Alley” in center field. Delahanty and Pete are both worthy – I definitely have a soft spot for modern day players. Pete only spending 6 years here weighed on my decision not to go with him. Delahanty doesn’t make the cut for… Read more »

Jason Z
11 years ago
Reply to  Ocp22

You need to make a spot for Grover Cleveland Alexander.

I know his time on the Phillies is short, but it is Koufaxian.

Also, if we except the Babe on the Red Sox Mt. Rushmore, than
we need to consider Old Pete for the Phillies.

Joe
Joe
11 years ago

So many to choose from on the Big Red Machine. But I have to go Edd Roush, Johnny Bench, Pete Rose and Barry Larkin. Edd for the reason he was the premier outfielder of his time in the NL and led the Reds to championships in 17 and 19. He maintained till his death the Reds beat the White Sox in 1919. He knew when the Sox were playing honest ball and the Reds beat them on enough of those days. Johnny was the greatest catcher between Yogi and I Rod. He changed the game. Pete is top five all… Read more »

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
11 years ago

Padres: Tony Gwynn and Trevor Hoffman are both easy choices. Dave Winfield has a Padres cap in his HOF plaque so he is included. After that, my choices are Ryan Klesko, Phil Nevin, Adrian Gonzalez, Jake Peavy, Randy Jones. But I’ll go instead with broadcaster Jerry Coleman.

Baseballs Deep
11 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Gwynn, Hoffman, Jones and Winfield

Ocp22
11 years ago

Mel Ott… Hit 3/5 of his HR at home (short right field porch at the Polo Grounds). Subtract 100 HR and and drop the SLG% below .500 and I wonder if that changes the Giants Rushmore. I think Marichal deserves to be on there. I’d go Mathewson, Mays, Bonds and Marichal… But I’m not a Giants fan.

John Sharp
11 years ago
Reply to  Ocp22

In my opinion you cannot make the player take the blame for the ball park. He played where he played, he had no choice. Mel Ott is a NYG Mt. Rushmore for sure, and I think, a reasonable choice foe all Giants teams.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Ocp22

Ott’s HRs were helped by his park, but his BA was hurt — .297 home, .311 away. And he did slug .510 on the road. Over all, his home-park advantage was insignificant.

I’m not trying to rate him relative to other Giants, just making a point.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

My counterpoint would be that Ott’s HR splits for home/away are are unbelievable 323/188. That’s 72% more HR at home than away. Surely this is the biggest split gap in the history of baseball. Others(Helton, Rice, Yaz) have bigger overall home/road splits as far as OPS goes, but Ott is the clear leader in HR difference.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

bstar, what HR floor would you like to use for this? If we set it at 200 or 250, Ott definitely isn’t the leader in percentage of HRs hit at home. I don’t know for sure who is the leader, but: – 64.6%, Dante Bichette (177 out of 274) – 63.2%, Mel Ott (323 out of 511) – 63.2%, Ron Santo (216 out of 342) – 63.0%, Chuck Klein (190 out of 300) – 61.9%, Hank Greenberg (205 out of 331) – 61.0%, Todd Helton (214 out of 351) Browns star Ken Williams hit 142 of 196 HRs at home,… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Gavvy Cravath had 92 of his 119 HRs at Baker Bowl for 77.3%. He had 8 at the Polo Grounds so at just those two parks he hit 84% of his HRs.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

We have ways of adjusting for home-park affects for batters, such as OPS+. Mel Ott is tied for 22nd all-time in OPS at 155, surrounded in the 154-156 range by: Dick Allen Willie Mays Frank Thomas Hank Aaron Joe DiMaggio MEL OTT Manny Ramirez Frank Robinson To me, that indicates he deserves his proper place amongst the all-time greats. If the Polo Grounds were giving him a big boost not only in his HRs but also his overall offense, OPS+ would have adjusted for it. But as John says in #90 above, there’s not that much to adjust. I think… Read more »

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

I specifically said “HR difference”. I thought that implied (home HR – road HR), but now I see that I said Ott had the biggest gap after giving a percentage of home vs. road HR. Ott has 145 more HR at home than away; I don’t see anyone else having a “bigger split gap” than that. I also pointed out that many others had bigger OPS splits than Ott overall (I am referring to tOPS+ home/road splits specifically) which really was in agreement with your assessment that others benefited overall much more from their home park. I wasn’t as aware… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Reply to #252:

Bobby Doerr 125/74

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

to #253: Cool! Keep ’em coming!

Shping
Shping
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Not sure where to look it up, but: Ellis Burks?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Burks’s numbers are 110/91. It’s easy to find. Go to his home page on BR, click on Splits and choose Career from the drop-down menu. Then scroll down a short way to his Home/Away splits chart.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Burks is a great guess, because he played for both Colorado AND Boston; but I guess that isn’t as powerful as playing for Colorado your whole career (like Todd Helton has).

Shping
Shping
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Thanks guys. I continue to learn. And i’m perfectly content to let Bichette have the “homey” title. Interesting that he’s almost the only one above who is not in the HOF, and the only one i definitely would not want to see carved in stone.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Since these splits we are looking at, Shping, are really just a rate stat, there are probably some others with as high of a split difference out there, but to me the interesting thing is looking at the great players in history to see who may have benefited the most over a long period of time from their home park (or, in Yaz or possibly Jim Rice’s case, “skillfully took advantage of their home park”).

Shping
Shping
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

I understand and agree bstar. I was checking out the Duke of Flatbush, and not surprisingly, he has t+OPS scores of around 110 at Ebbets Field, which was famously well-suited to his left-handed bat. What is surprising are his numbers at the L.A. Coliseum, which was equally infamous for its crazy dimensions. As expected, he struggled mightily his first year there in 1958, with a home score of only 78. But in ’59 and ’60 he rebounded to score 111 and 117 at home. I don’t think they changed the outfield dimensions much if at all in RF, so it… Read more »

Steven
Steven
11 years ago

Cardinals: Musial, Gibson, Ozzie Smith, and the Angel with the 2012 (Dal) Maxvillian stats: Albert Pujols.

Brent
Brent
11 years ago
Reply to  Steven

I would have to consider Hornsby, Dean, Schoendienst and Slaughter too. Also Simmons.

Baseballs Deep
11 years ago
Reply to  Steven

Gibson and Musial are automatics. Hard to argue with Pujols. Dizzy Dean is also a solid choice, but I went with Lou Brock and Ozzie Smith.

Ocp22
11 years ago

Indians- Feller, Lemon, Speaker and probably Thome. Consideration to Averill, Belle, Lofton, Lajoie and Boudreau.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Ocp22

Do you have something against Nap Lajoie? I know we’re all just following our own hearts here, but … I mean … the team was NAMED after him for a decade!
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

Clearly, this is a fantastic idea for discussion, Graham!

TheOneWhoKnocks
TheOneWhoKnocks
11 years ago

As a Yankees fan I know Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle are all impossible to leave off- but I feel like jeter is equally as impossible to keep off at this point. A tough cut will need to be made

Lukehart80
11 years ago

Jeter is that cut.

kds
kds
11 years ago

I’d put Berra in over their 2nd best CF. (DiMag.)

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago
Reply to  kds

Berra would look great carved in stone. The Yankees, like the Tigers, need two or three Mt Rushmores. Maybe 4 or 5. Stengel, Dickey, Ford, Rizzutoβ€”put them on another franchise, and they would be the consensus choices. Lazzari, Paul O’Niell, Bernie Williams, Mattingly. Joe Gordon, Ron Guidry, Elston Howard, Dave Winfield. Where do you put Reggie? Joe Sewell? Ruffing, Gomez, Henrich, Munson. Pettitte would be automatic on a lot of teams.

Whereas it’s hard to find four contenders for some teams.

Neil L.
Neil L.
11 years ago

No stat, how many monuments of their own do the Pinstripers have in Yankee Stadium?. That is their own internal Mt. Rushmore, no?

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago

This is the Yankees and they’re not exactly known for their subtlety so I could see them chiseling about 2 dozen heads on a mile and a half stretch of the Grand Canyon…

And no one has even mentioned some of the most successful managers of all-time like Joe McCarthy or Miller Huggins or Casey or people like the Boss or Ed Barrow.

Ocp22
11 years ago

Consider Brock for the Cardinals…

How about the Pirates?? I’d go Wagner, Clemente, Stargell and Traynor.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Ocp22

Personally, I’d go with Paul Warner over Traynor.

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Arky Vaughan, the forgotten man.

Dan McCloskey
11 years ago

Definitely Vaughan over the over-rated Pie Traynor:

Wagner, Clemente, P. Waner, Vaughan

bstar
11 years ago

I would still take Stargell over Vaughan, and then Waner, Wagner, and Clemente. Vaughan only played 10 seasons with Pittsburgh while Pops played over 20, and, although his actual contributions to the team were probably overrated, he helped give Pittsburgh its only World Series title in the last 40 years in 1979. Stargell is more of an iconic Pirate than Vaughan, and that has to come into consideration here.

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

bstar:

Stargell is kind of a forgotten man, too, considering his era. Vaughan played what everyone here likes to call a skill position, but Stargell was a team leader, as a recall, and I don’t remember reading anything saying that about Vaughan. Peak career Vaughan, vs. productive longevity Stargell, another difference.

It’s a hard call, but I think I kind of side with you, especially since the Pirates haven’t had a more recent player who comes close in terms of the two criteria, greatness and length of service on the team.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

bstar, I thought you’d made a strange error – forgetting 1971 – but it seems time flies as fast as they say . . . Stargell was a fine player and very longtime Pirate, but in my recollection – a bit different from no-statistician-but – he wasn’t seen as the franchise leader until ’79 (unlike Vaughan, as I understand his career). Perhaps his skill set was a bit one-dimensional, and of course he was in Clemente’s shadow for the first half of his career. Actually, I’d pick Murtaugh to go with Wagner, Waner, and Clemente. How many teams have a… Read more »

Josh
Josh
11 years ago

How about fictional baseball players from movies? Roy Hobbs, Crash Davis, Rick Vaughn, and Nuke Laloosh maybe?

John Sharp
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh

Very clever… Hobbs… “there goes the greatest who ever lived” then Crash Davis, Nuke Laloosh, and then the great Billy Chapel. Yes, Costner gets 2 nods.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Graham

Might I suggest the greatest “What might have been” of them all- Sidd Finch

Lukehart80
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Sidd Finch was my junior high applied arts teacher. Seriously.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/01/sports/baseball/01finch.html

He was every bit as good a teacher as he was ballplayer. I’m glad that in the end he chose the classroom over the pitching mound.

Nick Pain
Nick Pain
11 years ago
Reply to  Graham

How about Benny “The Jet” Rodriguez. From the sandlot to the Bigs.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
11 years ago
Reply to  Nick Pain

Where is the “like” icon when we need it? πŸ˜‰

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh

Then John Kinsella (Field of Dreams) is my catcher.

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh

Roy Tucker over them all, movie or no. Anyone else remember the great John R. Tunis?

If we shift to writers who also played, the best by far was Jim Brosnan, not a bad reliever either.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Josh

For the New York Mammoths: Bruce Pearson, Piney Woods, Dutch Schnell, and the southpaw himself, Henry “Author” Wiggen.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago

Since I doubt that anyone else will pick up their banner, allow me to suggest for the pre-Baltimore St. Louis Browns the following: George Sisler, Harlond Clift, Ken Williams and Bobby Wallace.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I considered Pete Gray too, but since these are just head shots…

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

What, no Baby Doll Jacobson?!?!?!? πŸ™‚

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

It could just be the picture that Baseball Reference has of him but it appears to me that in one respect at least, Jacobson shares one thing in common with Walt Williams. Which, if they follow the Mt Rushmore model, shouldn’t be a problem since necks don’t seem to be part of the equation.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Yeah, from that pic you’d never peg him for 6′ 3″ !

JSE
JSE
11 years ago

Ripken, Murray, Palmer, Brooks Robinson for Baltimore.

I strongly considered Frank Robinson, but I think six years as an Oriole, as great as they were, isn’t enough to get him the big granite face.

Dan McCloskey
11 years ago
Reply to  JSE

I totally agree with these four and will add that the Orioles Mt. Rushmore might be the biggest no-brainer of all.

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago
Reply to  JSE

Multi-team stars: Frank Robinson, Reggie Jacksonβ€”has to have starred on two teams, played well on a third, and not be linked with just one in the public mind.

Adam Darowski
11 years ago

I’m going to have to go with Ted Williams, Yaz, Pedro, and Boggs. Man, so many to choose from…

dannyc
dannyc
11 years ago
Reply to  Adam Darowski

StLoo has gotta be Gibby, Oz, The Man, Albert

dannyc
dannyc
11 years ago
Reply to  dannyc

StLoo honorable mention Lou, Dizzy, Carp and Rogers H. What a franchise!

Cody
Cody
11 years ago

For the Angels, I would have to say easily Tim Salmon and Garret Anderson. The other two, I would choose Nolan Ryan and Vladimir Guerrero, but one could make the case for Don Baylor and, when all is said and done, Jered Weaver.

Steven
Steven
11 years ago
Reply to  Cody

Don’t forget Jim Fregosi. For many years, he was the premier shortstop in the American League. Also, if not for him, California would not have Nolan Ryan.

Cody
Cody
11 years ago
Reply to  Steven

Can’t believe I forgot about him. Now I’m even thinking Bobby Grier too if you want to add WAR into this discussion.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

For the Homestead Grays:
Josh Gibson, Buck Leonard, Smokey Joe Williams, Cum Posey.

For the Pittsburgh Crawfords:
Satchel Paige, Cool Papa Bell, Judy Johnson, Double Duty Radcliffe.

Lukehart80
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Speaking of impressive groups, good lord, look at those two.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Lukehart80

And Oscar Charleston played for BOTH of those teams, although towards the end of his career- put him in his prime with either of those groups and I think we would have a clear winner as to the best foursome of all. Even as they are, there’s a good argument to be made for them.

Shping
Shping
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Well done John!

Paul E
Paul E
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

JA:
Any ideas for Hilldale? I grew up 6 miles away….

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Hilldale … Well, I’m not too familiar with the Eastern Colored League, but:
— Biz Mackey, Louis Santop, Judy Johnson (all HOFers) plus Phil Cockrell.

I put Johnson with the Craws above, but he really belongs to Hilldale.

Paul, is there anything in or near Hilldale that commemorates the team?

Paul E
Paul E
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

I pulled this off Wikipedia (unfortunately, I moved from the area in August 2006) Historical Marker On October 14, 2006, over 500 individuals gathered for the dedication of a Pennsylvania Historical marker at the site of Hilldale’s ballpark at Chester and Cedar Streets in Yeadon. The ceremony was attended by Philadelphia Phillies hitting coach Milt Thompson, former Phillies player Garry Maddox, and Gene Dias, Phillies director of community relations,. Also attending were the four living members of the Negro League Philadelphia Stars, Bill Cash, Mahlon Duckett, Stanley Glenn, and Harold Gould, along with Ray Mackey, great grandnephew of former Hilldale… Read more »

bstar
11 years ago

In less than 3 hours, Graham, you have passed the 100 comment threshold. HHS must be trending on Twitter right now!

TravisG2
TravisG2
11 years ago

Nolan Ryan, Jim Sundberg, Ruben Sierra and Josh Hamilton.

Josh
Josh
11 years ago

Tampa Bay Rays:
Carl Crawford, Evan Longoria, James Shields, David Price

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
11 years ago

Does anyone care to guess this team? Mike Piazza, Albert Belle, John Kruk, Johnny Gomes.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Hey, Luis — That’s a toughie. Piazza & Gomes both played at class-A Bakersfield, but beyond that, I got nuthin’. Some winter league team?

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

You are on the right track, John. These sluggers played for my hometown Mexicali Eagles of the Mexican Pacific (Winter) League. They all are well remembered here. Good times!

ajnrules
11 years ago

Nobody’s done the Royals yet? George Brett is a gimme. After that it gets tricky. I’d personally go with Frank White, Dick Howser, and Ewing Kauffman. However I really hate leaving out Bret Saberhagen, Amos Otis, or Denny Matthews. If you ask me tomorrow I’d probably have a different answer.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  ajnrules

Don’t forget about the Quiz!

He ranks with my avatar & Firpo Marberry as my all-time favorite relievers.

Brent
Brent
11 years ago
Reply to  ajnrules

Sorry, but the Quiz has to be there. I would do players only and have Brett, White, Quiz and Saberhagen. Howser and Kaufmann should be acknowldeged somewhere on the grounds of the Royals Mount Rushmore.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  ajnrules

In light of his 2 Cy Young Awards, it’s natural that Saberhagen comes to mind first among KCR pitchers.

But FWIW, Kevin Appier tops him in both Wins (115-110) and WAR (47.9-40.8; all figures are with KC only). Ape also edges him in peak WAR seasons (10.0 & 8.7 to 9.8 and 8.0).

Of course, Appier didn’t toss a Game 7 shutout; then again, he never got the chance, and you couldn’t say that Sabes has an impressive postseason record over all.

Career-wise, there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between them.

Brent
Brent
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

I agree, Appier and Saberhagen with the Royals aren’t much different, but the only World Series championship in Royals history is flying mostly because of Saberhagen’s 2 wins in the WS. That gives him an edge on the Mount.

Baseballs Deep
11 years ago
Reply to  ajnrules

I’d go with George Brett, Dennis Leonard, Dan Quisenberry and Frank White.

Andy R
Andy R
11 years ago
Reply to  ajnrules

How about Brett, White, Quisenberry, and Paul Splittorff?

Paul
Paul
11 years ago
Reply to  Andy R

another good Mount, you know you’ve had some talent when 600+ SB, 1000+ R, 130 3B, a battling title and 5 seasons as a league leader in 3B don’t even get you a mention

Paul E
Paul E
11 years ago
Reply to  Andy R

How about Steve Busby? Obviously, injuries happen….but a fanmtastic talent, nonetheless.

Rob Harris
11 years ago

For the Cubs, I would put Cap Anson on there, even though he was a racist and the reason why the game was segregated from the 1880s onward (Google George Stovey if you don’t believe me). I would then put Ernie Banks and Fergie Jenkins on either side, to force him to share the honor with two great African American players. And I would add Ryne Sandberg for good measure.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  Rob Harris

I’d go with Anson, Banks, and Ryno as the clear first 3. The fourth pick is a lot tougher, as Billy Williams, Fergie Jenkins, and Gabby Hartnett are all fine choices, but I will go with Ron Santo and his five gold gloves as the final choice.

Rob Harris
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I would also say that Santo’s work as an announcer and a JDRF fundraiser can also be considered. His second act in baseball was as remarkable as his first one.

brp
brp
11 years ago
Reply to  Rob Harris

I was beginning to think nobody here cared about the Cubs πŸ™

Forget Cap Anson because he’s a dirtbag. I’d rather see Banks, Santo, Ryno, and Hartnett or Jenkins (flip a coin). I think Santo wins out over some perhaps better players because of what he meant to the organization post-career as well.

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago
Reply to  brp

The Cubs’ glory years early had Mordecai Brown, who regularly out-dueled Mathewson, and I’d take him over Sandberg any day. Brown didn’t have WGN to publicize him and Harry Carey in his dotage years to rave incoherently about his talents or excuse his faults, but he was a dominant pitcher in a pitcher’s era.

At least no one is touting Billie Williams yet.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  brp

Hmm. Billy Williams has more WAR than Ryno, Hartnett, or Fergie as a Cub. He deserves some consideration at the very least.

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago
Reply to  brp

bstar: No one wants to hear my take on WAR again. Admittedly, my phrasing was meant to illicit a response. When you think of the perpetual runners-up that were the Cubs in the late Sixties and early Seventies, you think Banks, Santo, Jenkins, Williams, then the cast of support pitcher and players. Banks deserves a monument for his earlier play, and IF you only have three more busts to carve and IF you, as you should, consider the rest of the long and storied history of the teamβ€”such as the gang that won 4 pennants and two World Series in… Read more »

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  brp

No argument, no stat. I had Williams on my honorable mention list, not up on the mountaintop.

Andy R
Andy R
11 years ago
Reply to  Rob Harris

And there still is Phil Cavarretta, Stan Hack and Billy Williams…

Baseballs Deep
11 years ago

Mets – Dwight Gooden, Ed Kranepool, Tom Seaver, Darryl Strawberry Kranepool is still the Mets all-time leader in games, plate appearances and hits. However if the Mets retain David Wright, he should pass Kranepool and also take his place on Mount Metsmore. Expos – Gary Carter, Tim Raines, Steve Rogers, Tim Wallach Tough to leave Dawson off here, and as much as I love Le Grande Orange, I think Wallach is more deserving than Rusty Staub. Astros – Astros – Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Cesar Cedeno, Nolan Ryan Ryan gets the nod but Larry Dierker has a higher career WAR,… Read more »

JR
JR
11 years ago
Reply to  Baseballs Deep

For the Twins, how could you possibly not mention Kirby Puckett?

Dave V.
Dave V.
11 years ago

For the Yankees, I’d go with Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and Jeter. Some may criticize Jeter over DiMaggio and Berra (amongst others) but I think the Yanks deserve someone from the 40+ years on their Mount Rushmore.

And since they are by far the most accomplished team, if they were to get a second Mount Rushmore, I’d go with DiMaggio, Berra, Mattingly and Rivera.

As a Yankees fan, a baseball and sports fan, and a fan of Mariano Rivera the person, today is fairly high up there with the most bummed out I’ve ever felt because of sports…

JR
JR
11 years ago
Reply to  Dave V.

Joe Dimaggio is one of the top 25 players in MLB history. It is very difficult to argue to put Jeter ahead of him. DiMaggio and Berra were 3 time MVP’s don’t forget. Not to mention, Jeter struck out more times in his first 4 seasons than Berra did in his entire career.

Jimbo
Jimbo
11 years ago
Reply to  Dave V.

Really, Mattingly as a top 8 Yankee?

Brent
Brent
11 years ago

I’ll do the most successful team in the AL after the Yankees (if success is counted by WS titles and pennants) that nobody ever thinks of because they played in 3 cities. And they are hard, but I would go Foxx, Grove, Jackson and Billy Beane (just kidding, how about Fingers or Hunter?, and anyway, if it wasn’t a player for the 4th spot, it would be Connie Mack, not Beane)

Brent
Brent
11 years ago
Reply to  Brent

And of course, I completely ignored the first 15 years of their existance, which might have been their best 15 years. OK, the 4th spot probably should go to Waddell or Plank or Collins.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Brent

Another team I would split up although you’re going to have a tough time coming up with much of a team in Kansas City Philadelphia- Eddie Collins, Jimmy Foxx, Al Simmons, Lefty Grove with apologies to Frank Baker, MIckey Cochrane and several dead ball era pitchers Kansas City- geez, I don’t know- Dick Howser, Ed Charles, Bob Cerv and Bert Campaneris? Bud Daley maybe? Oakland- Reggie Jackson, Catfish Hunter, Rickey Henderson & Sal Bando with apologies to Bert Campaneris (again), Vida Blue, Mark Mulder, Bary Zito, Ken Holtzman, Joe Rudi and a cast of thousands. Mark McGwire and Jason Giambi… Read more »

Brent
Brent
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

The Kansas City A’s would probably trade their Mount Rushmore to the Yankees for a bunch of used up veterans.

brp
brp
11 years ago
Reply to  Brent

This is pretty hilarious.

Andy R
Andy R
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Boy, the Kansas City A’s are tough- how about Jerry Lumpe, Norm Siebern, Bud Daley, and….ARGH!

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

The too-oft-forgotten Tim Hudson wishes he were in the “apologies to” group instead of the cast of thousands, seeing as how he was better than Zito or Mulder, IMHO.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  bstar

And you are right of course and Hudson probably even belongs on the Oakland Mt. Rushmore over Hunter, although I’m not sure that he would win that vote if it were left strictly up to the fans although I could be wrong there too.

Paul E
Paul E
11 years ago

I might be a little cross-eyed after reading all these posts, but how about the City of Brotherly (and Occasional Contempt – relatively high homicide rate)? A’s – Home Run Baker, Eddie Plank, Jimmie Foxx, Lefty Grove Phillies – Mike Schmidt, Robin Roberts, Richie Ashburn, Grover C. Alexander Obviously, I’m leaving out Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane, Eddie Collins as well as Dick Allen, Del Ennis, Senator Bunning, and Chuck Klein. For all these ballclubs, I would prefer to see players who at least spent their debuting years and following with the club. You know, Piazza and Carter and Hernandez are… Read more »

Baseballs Deep
11 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

You forgot about Steve Carlton. My Mount Phillies-more would be Ashburn, Carlton, Roberts and Schmidt.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  Baseballs Deep

Yeah, but it’s tough to leave off Pete Alexander, or Ed Delahanty (if you allow 19th century players; then you’ve also got Billy Hamilton and Sam Thompson). I thnk the only thing everyone agrees on is Schmidt has to be #1. This goes back to my point in #165 that older teams should be split into (at least) two teams, sometimes three: pre-WWII (1942): Pete Alexander Ed Delahanty Billy Hamilton (based on peak) Chuck Klein 1942-1976: Robin Roberts Dick Allen Richie Ashburn Jim Bunning 1977-present: Mike Schmidt Steve Carlton (could’ve gone under earlier list) Curt Schilling Chase Utley (based on… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

How about a Baker Bowl Mt. Rushmore for the Phillies:

Chuck Klein
Lefty O’Doul
Cy Williams
Gavvy Cravath

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago

Is this a list of Phillies that _took the most advantage_ of the peculiar dimensions of the Baker Bowl? Because otherwise, I don’t understand why Delahanty and Hamilton are not on this list (the Baker Bowl was first built in 1887).

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

I got the player stats from BR PI which starts with 1901. Hamilton was pre-1901 with the Phils so his name did not show up and Delahanty had only one year at Baker Bowl after 1900. It was a sort of half-serious blog.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago

Oh… As Emily Litella would say on SNL, “Never mind!”.

“And what is all this fuss I hear about the Supreme Court decision on a “deaf” penalty? It’s terrible! Deaf people have enough problems as it is!”

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago

And if were talking early Phillies let’s not forget Roy Thomas, the original walking man.

Eric Hanczyc
Eric Hanczyc
11 years ago

I am not a Mariners’ fan as Andy can attest, but since I have lived in Seattle for most of the past 20 years, I’ll list the Mariners’ Mount Rushmore:

The Big Unit
Edgar
Junior
King Felix

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
11 years ago
Reply to  Eric Hanczyc

What about Jay Buhner?

Eric H
Eric H
11 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

There’s only room for 4 on Rushmore. Who would Bone replace?
You can make an argument that Felix needs to perform at this level for a few more years.

By the way there are 4 persons in the Seattle Mariners Hall of Fame:
Alvin Davis (1997)
Dave Niehaus (2000)
Jay Buhner (2004)
Edgar Martinez (2007)

I am certain there are more than a few Mariners’ fans who would vote for Dave Niehaus.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago

Great discussion topic here Graham; I’m a little late to this subject but I’d like to make two main points: 1) The “original 16” franchises at the start of the modern era have {as a number of people have pointed out: #44, #128, #141} waaaaayy too much history to cover with four names. It would make more sense conceptually to divide them up into two separate groups, say pre-expansion (till 1960) and post-expansion (1961-present). This make a good separate post. Several venerable franchises (Cardinals, Giants, Dodgers, Tigers, Red Sox) could use three separate groups; the Yankees might need _four_ separate… Read more »

Dan McCloskey
11 years ago

Has