Catchers and Wins – WAR

About a month ago, Doug gave us an accounting of the best players at each position who never played in a World Series.  The list included a Hall of Famer or Hall of Fame-worthy player at every position except catcher, where Jason Kendall and his 38.3 WAR took the honor.  Doug noted in the comments that Joe Torre never won a Series as a player, and was far better than Kendall, but Torre played more than half his career at positions other than catcher.

It probably doesn’t mean much beyond coincidence that no superstar catcher has ever gone a whole career without winning a World Series, but it leads one to suspect that a team with a great catcher might be better equipped to win a title than a team with a superstar at another position.  I certainly wouldn’t be the first to posit this, as many writers before me have trumpeted the importance of a catcher as an on-field leader, manager of pitchers, influencer of umpires, and a stifler of baserunners who gets to bat every couple of innings too.  Both keepers of WAR admit that catcher defense is an area of weakness, and that there may be things catchers do on the field that show up in neither the box score nor the advanced metrics.

The simplest test of the importance of a great catcher would be to count the World Series played in and won by teams employing the game’s greatest individual catchers.  By rWAR, these are the five most valuable catchers in baseball history:

Johnny Bench (played in 4 WS, won 2)

Gary Carter (played in 1 WS, won 1)

Carlton Fisk (played in 1 WS, won 0)

Ivan Rodriguez (played in 2 WS, won 1)

Yogi Berra (played in 14 WS, won 10)

You might be thinking that the best players of all time at any position probably won more than their fair share of World Series.  Let’s try third base and center field, just to test this:

Five Most Valuable Third Basemen

Mike Schmidt (played in 2 WS, won 1)

Eddie Mathews (played in 3 WS, won 2)

Wade Boggs (played in 2 WS, won 1)

George Brett (played in 2 WS, won 1)

Chipper Jones (played in 3 WS, won 1)

Five Most Valuable Center Fielders

Willie Mays (played in 4 WS, won 1)

Ty Cobb (played in 3 WS, won 0)

Tris Speaker (played in 3 WS, won 3)

Mickey Mantle (played in 12 WS, won 7)

Ken Griffey, Jr. (never played in a WS)

Our miniscule sample reveals little beyond the fact that playing for the Yankees in the 1950s was a good way to fill up a jewelry box.  Sure, Berra won more than Mantle in a career that started and ended earlier, but that may speak more to the teams surrounding them than their respective individual contributions.  It should also be noted that Berra never played as many of half his team’s games at catcher after 1959, and the team made every World Series from 1960 through 1963, winning two.

It’s also somewhat misleading to compare World Series appearances and victories across eras, since winning a pennant prior to 1969 essentially required being the best team in a league, while winning a pennant in 2012 means being among the three best teams in the leauge or winning a weak division and then winning two short series and possibly a play-in game, all of which are essentially coin flips.  It’s possible that a great catcher will have a greater effect on winning a postseason series than a regular season series, since teams typically get enough days off in the postseason to play their best catcher every game, but given the changes in the playoff schedule over time, it’s impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions about the importance of a catcher relative to other positions in winning championships.

Instead, let’s focus on the regular season.  We’ve posited that catchers may help their teams win more games than WAR gives them credit for.  It’m not sure it’s possible to test this to any reasonable degree of accuracy, but if it’s true, wouldn’t teams with great catchers out-win their team WAR totals somewhat regularly?  Any sample used to test this would admittedly have a lot of noise in it, as teams routinely over- and underperform their team WAR due to things like bullpen management, players accumulating multiple WAR in single-game blowouts, and any number of lucky bounces.  Still, if we look at the right players, we might be able to find something, right?

I’m going to manipulate my sample a little bit this time to include catchers who accumulated the most defensive WAR.  WAR is consistent in its measurement of offense from position to position, so the contributions of a Mike Piazza type are probably captured well with the existing metrics.  My control group will consist of the players on either side of the dWAR list from each catcher.  Most of them will be shortstops, with some slick second basemen and swift center fielders mixed in.

By choosing the players with the most dWAR, I’m assuming that the players whose defensive contributions are measurably significant are the same players who are doing the little things that don’t get picked up by WAR.  I honestly can’t tell you whether this is a reasonable assumption, since we’re trying to measure immeasurable activities, and it’s hard to find a list of players who were best at those.  I’ll limit my study to 12 catchers and 24 other guys, since this work is very manual and time-consuming.  If anyone wants to take this on in greater detail, let me know in the comments and I’ll share my work, but to me, these seem like the right players to study.

PlayerPosYearsPlayer WARTeam Wins - WAR (Adj.)
All data courtesy of

For each player, I looked at his best consecutive eight-year stretch in terms of individual WAR.  Adjusted Wins – WAR represents the average number of games his team won over those eight seasons minus the total WAR accumulated by all players on the team.  I then made an adjustment to scale every season to 162 games, using the average Wins-WAR difference of .256 (which suggests that a team full of replacement players would win 41.5 games in a 162-game season).

What can we conclude from this?  Not much.  The average catcher’s team won 41.0 more games than their total WAR, which is a half-game lower than average.  Everyone else averaged 41.7.  Shortstops are listed first and last, and averaged 41.4.  Players from various eras are distributed normally, which suggests that the data aren’t skewed by the games played adjustment or by changes in talent distribution over time.  The second, third, and fourth players are three of the six most valuable players in the sample, but there’s no strong correlation between individual WAR and team Wins-WAR.

If there’s one interesting finding, it’s that at least two of the three catchers at the top of this list had very strong reputations as game-changing catchers.  Bench is perhaps the best all-around catcher ever, an offensive force who could do everything on defense.  He was surrounded by talent- Morgan, Rose, Perez…- but even with all the WAR those players earned, his teams won an average of four more games than WAR suggests they should have every year.  If the data didn’t say the same about Art Fletcher and Andruw Jones, I’d suggest there’s something there.

I don’t remember Rick Dempsey’s reputation (I was born during his best 8-year stretch), but Wikipedia tells me he was reputed as one of the best defensive catchers of his era, and both dWAR and these numbers support that.

Yadier Molina is the player about whom I most often read that WAR sells him short.  His reputation is as a superlative athlete (speed notwithstanding), a fine manager of pitchers, and the most feared arm in the game by would-be basestealers.  His teams have won a game and a half more per season than WAR tells us they should.  Should we attach that win and a half directly to Molina’s WAR?  Of course not.  But this may go a small way toward validating the claim that Yadi is more valuable than his WAR.

From the commenters, I’d like to know whether any of the catchers near the bottom of the list had reputations that fit the narrative.  Did they do things that WAR captures excpetionally well, but not get along with pitchers?  Did they throw a lot of baserunners out, but let a lot steal successfully too, while guys at the top of the list were too feared to be run on at all?  Did they play for bad managers or teams with bad bullpens, which would hide any positive impact they might have had on Wins – WAR?

Furthermore, I recognize some of the shortcomings of using this method to try to isolate a catcher’s contributions without controlling for other factors that likely have greater effects on the results.  Is there a better way to study this?  Should we start with guys like Molina who seem to exhibit traits that help teams without boosting WAR and compare their teams’ Wins – WAR to the sample?

Or should we just crown Art Fletcher The Greatest Intangible Player of All Time and go back to arguing about Jack Morris?


Catchers and Wins – WAR — 22 Comments

  1. I was tricked by the beginning…I thought this was going to be a post about the recently retired Jason Kendall, who by the way, has almost the same career WAR as Jorge Posada (38.3 vs. 39.0). Yet for some reason Jorge as perceived as a HOF candidate and Jason isn’t. Solely because Jorge had the good fortune to be drafted by the Yankees and Jason didn’t. Not that I think Jason should go in the HOF, just that I don’t see how someone could support one of them and not the other. Okay, stepping off the soapbox…

    • By no means am I supporting Posada, but I can see why most anyone would place him above Kendall.

      Defense stats. People routinely discount them. So most will ignore that -60 on Posada, and +16 for Kendall (about 7.5 war difference right there, which means someone delusional could say Posada may’ve been worth 45 WAR. Hell, let’s give him back his -59 from GIDPs & baserunning and make it 51). HOF voters in general are going to focus on offensive stats, and Posada has what they’re looking for. Kendall has hits, runs and a good amount of SBs for a Catcher, but he’s missing HRs, which destroys his SLG (.378, making his OPS+ 95).

      Kendall has 75 HRs to Posada’s 275. If you just *gave* Kendall 200 HRs (swapping them for singles, to keep his BA & hits the same) his SLG would jump to .457. Then he’d surely be in the discussion.

      I just hope they ignore Posada. If anything, i bet his defense cost more than 6 games.

      • No doubt. It obviously depends on what stats you choose to look at. That being said, had Posada not played for the Yankees, I doubt he’d be considered a HOF candidate.

        • If Posada had played for any other team and put up the offensive numbers he did as a catcher, he would be called a borderline HOF candidate.

          Catchers are not elected to the HOF because of their defense. People talk about Bench and his defense as a supporting element to why he’s in he HOF, but that’s not why he’s in the HOF. Mike Piazza will be elected to the HOF (unless BBWAA now and forever allow whispers to keep him out) because of his bat. Ivan Rodriquez will be elected to the HOF (unless whispers, whispers) because of his offense, but people will talk about his great arm as a supporting element, but that’s not why he’s going to be elected.

          Jorge Posada will get consideration for the HOF because of his bat, whether he played in NY or Texas, but his bat wasn’t in the Piazza mold to overcome what were perceived as his shortcomings on defense.

          If Kendall played for the Yankees, he would not be talked about as a borderline HOFer.

          • Ahh, but that’s now the other direction, Ed! :-)

            Simmons is not being helped by his defensive reputation, as Posada will not be helped either. What I’m saying is catchers are elected on their hitting, but players like Simmons and Posada, while fine and productive hitters, didn’t hit enough in the minds of BBWAA members, and then are also hurt by their defense. (And, yes, I’m fully aware I’m already writing about Posada’s likely votes before he’s on the damn ballot!)

            Simmons is an interesting case. I wonder if living under the shadow of Bench, whose catching style truly did alter the defensive approach and style of all catchers moving forward, while also being contemporaries of both Munson and Fisk, all three whom were fine hitters but also had very solid defensive reputations, forced Simmons into the ghetto.

            There are similarities between Posada and Simmons, with Simmons being the greater of the two based on his longevity. Neither were considered great defenders, yet for most of Posada’s career he was considered acceptable. A lot of the negative press around his defense came in the later years. For most of Simmons career, it was always mentioned how poor a defensive catcher he was. Once again, I wonder if it had more to do with who Simmons was being compared against, and also an even greater belief at the time that catchers should be excellent defenders. Perhaps by the time Posada was catching it was more acceptable to be more bat than glove as a catcher.

            Now a catcher like Piazza doesn’t have to worry about his defensive reputation as do Posada and Simmons. Piazza was the greatest hitting catcher ever. He’ll sail in, unless the whisper campaign does him in.

  2. — “It’s also somewhat misleading to compare World Series appearances and victories across eras, since winning a pennant prior to 1969 essentially required being the best team in a league, while winning a pennant in 2012 means being among the three best teams in the leauge or winning a weak division and then winning two short series and possibly a play-in game, all of which are essentially coin flips.” —

    Bryan, are you suggesting that getting through two rounds of playoffs is a coin flip?
    And that the team who raced to 97 wins is unarguably better than the 91-win team who showed up and won for two weeks in the playoffs?

    • The Giants were not the best team in MLB in 2012. The Tigers were not the best team in the AL. That’s baseball today. Make it to the post season and your team has a chance. Just get hot, or at the least, don’t get cold!

      • If the Giants were not the best team in 2012, who was? Last time I checked they beat a superior(regular season record/statistically)Reds team 3 times in their own house, the Cardinals who as we all know are extremely difficult to face in the postseason and blanked the Tigers with the best pitcher on the planet…twice! All of that without their closer and MLB’s top hitter average wise in the cheating Melky Cabrera. What else needs to be said here?

    • Am I suggesting that getting through two rounds of playoffs is a coin flip? Yes. And that the team who raced to 97 wins is unarguably better than the 91-win team who showed up and won for two weeks in the playoffs? No. I’m saying they mean different things.

      There’s so much randomness in baseball that it’s impossible to learn anything about which team was better from a short series. There’s no guarantee that 162 games will tell us who was best either, with the unbalanced schedule and injuries affecting every team differently. I like more playoffs because they give more teams a chance to win, but it’s hard to argue that the current method is as effective at rewarding the best team with a championship. Even if it were, it’s a different system, which was my original point. If a catcher truly helps his team win more games than WAR says he does, that effect is more likely to be borne out over the 162-game grind than to somehow burst through the randomness of a best-of-seven.

  3. I’m going to make a somewhat elliptical argument, which is that even adequate catchers are just hard to find-harder than any other position. There’s a lot of movement of second string catchers, and there are teams who, each year, cobble something together, but if you have a decent to good catcher, you are probably more likely to retain him. It’s also one of the three positions (ss/2b perhaps the others) where continuity and institutional knowledge from year to year also matter. That may lead you to retain catchers longer than their performance levels justify, particularly if you are a contending team.

  4. “About a month ago, Doug gave us an accounting of the best players at each position who never won a World Series”

    Doug’s post was about “retired players who never appeared in a World Series game”.

  5. Bryan, why does your list of the “five most valuable catchers” by rWAR include Berra but not Piazza? They both have 56.1 rWAR. I don’t think B-R recognizes a second decimal point, so if there is a tiebreaker, I think it should go to Piazza by higher average WAR per year or per game.

    Do I misunderstand what you mean by “rWAR”? I thought it meant WAR by the Baseball-Reference method.

    • Because I’m lazy. My original reaction to Doug’s post was “wow, all the great catchers won a bunch of championships- Berra, Bench, Dickey…” When I put it in writing, I basically wanted to get to Berra to illustrate the half-baked idea that I planned to study further. He was #5 here, which seemed like a good place to stop, and I didn’t even notice that he was tied with another catcher (at an alphabetical disadvantage).

      And yes, I use rWAR to mean baseball-reference WAR.

  6. Interesting topic, one correction though. Ivan Rodriguez played in two World Series, winning one with the Fish and was on the losing side in ’06 with the Tigers.

  7. Brian, this topic is right up my alley! I sincerely appreciate trying to dig into the missing WAR issue. I think the problem is that the WAR value of these catchers defensively is added to their teammates, particularly into pitching WAR. Also, I might scrap looking at the best catchers of all time by war and instead look at the best defensive catchers of all time by WAR. It is interesting that there is little variation from league average but as you said the sample size is not big enough to draw that conclusion (not by a mile) so please be careful with that!

    • Mosc, I did use the best defensive catchers of all time, as ranked by dWAR, for my Wins – WAR study. Over the whole sample, there’s actually a pretty wide variation from league average- Fletcher and Bench “added” 8-10 more wins/season than Wallace and Pena (though I’m not sure that means much).

      You’re probably right, though, that those WAR are distributed among other players, particularly in baseball-reference’s version, which attributes all run prevention to pitchers. Fangraphs may actually leave some aspects of catcher value unaccounted for, since balls in play are entirely on fielders’ ledgers and nobody really gets credit for stranding runners.

      • I didn’t realize Yogi was a top 5 defensive catcher of all time. I just don’t buy that. Did Jose and Bengie Molina not get enough playing time or something? Bengie got 8.9 DWAR, Jose 7.1. Lists Yogi at 8.7 with 1500 non-catching innings. QUE? Not that I think any of those numbers are reasonable anyway. I think my father would raise a pitchfork at Gabby Hartnett having a scarce 6.6 DWAR. Dickey’s 7.6 seems overstated by comparison to the aforementioned.

        Catching defensively to me is a mix of fielding balls in play, interacting with the baserunning, pitch blocking, and pitch framing. We effectively measure only one part of that in DWAR, correct? Calling pitches to me is a shared responsibility with the pitcher and to some extent the manager/pitching coach as well. Some catchers call better games than others but I don’t think that’s really a defensive measure. A big part of it’s being a good head doctor too. I often think of Varitek as one of the best game callers ever. Average arm at best and not particularly impressive fielding (8.5 DWAR, wtf! Catching Wake no less) but a great game caller and handler of pitching staffs.

        How could we possibly pull framing and pitch blocking out of pitching war and give it to it’s rightful owners? (Yadier’s HOF case is a few years away, we got time to figure this out)

        • The initial look at how many championships each of the top five won was a very primitive confirmation of my gut reaction (see my comment 15 above) and I’m starting to regret putting it in writing. Those are the top five catchers, third basemen, and center fielders by total WAR.

          The chart, which was my attempt to see if there’s any validity to the assumption that catchers provide more value than WAR captures, includes the top 12 catchers by dWAR and the 24 other players closest to them on the overall dWAR list.

          To your last question, Matt Klaassen, among others, is doing this work, to evaluate things a catcher does, but pulling them off a pitcher’s record is another challenge altogether. Personally, I think b-r’s version of WAR credits the pitcher with too many things that are well beyond his control, but then, fangraphs probably misses a lot of things it should capture on the pitcher’s ledger. Perhaps as the two work (not necessarily together) to find middle ground, something that could benefit catcher evaluation will fall out.

          Or maybe we’ll just have to vote for Yadi for the Hall because he was “feared” and “a manager’s dream”.

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