Circle of Greats: Redemption Round #1

This Circle of Greats vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle, but only to select two players who will restored back on to the main ballot after having been previously been dropped from eligibility. The intent is to help assure that deserving guys who have may have been dropped during a particularly talent-heavy era get another chance in a different context where they might be more competitive.

Among those who have been dropped from eligibility, the guys listed below have received the most votes, but you can vote for anyone who was born between 1960 and 1968, played at least 10 years in the majors, is no longer on the ballot, and has not already been inducted in to the Circle of Greats. As usual, you must vote for three and only three guys to cast a qualifying ballot. The two guys who appear on the most ballots will be restored to eligibility for the next regular, induction round of of COG voting. If your personal favorite doesn’t come in the top two this time, do not despair — he will have other chances in future redemption rounds, which I currently plan to hold every ten rounds or so.

Here is the list of the previously dropped guys who have received more than one vote in past rounds. They are listed in order of the most total votes they received over the previous rounds in which they were eligible and, where that’s a tie, alphabetical order:

Kenny Lofton
Fred McGriff
Don Mattingly
Jeff Kent
Kevin Brown
Trevor Hoffman
Kirby Puckett
Will Clark
Jimmy Key
Jamie Moyer
John Olerud
Rafael Palmeiro
Fernando Valenzuela
Andy Van Slyke
Omar Vizquel

As with the simultaneously running 1959 induction round, the deadline to cast your ballots in this redemption round is Sunday night at 11PM EST, on Feb. 24. You can change your votes until 11PM EST on Friday, Feb. 22. You can keep track of the vote tally in this redemption round here: Redemption Round 1 COG Vote Tally

Leave a Reply

109 Comments on "Circle of Greats: Redemption Round #1"

Notify of
avatar
Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
Phil
Guest

Palmeiro, Puckett, Kent.

qx
Guest

Jamie Moyer, Jeff Kent, John Olerud

Chris C
Guest

Will Clark
Puckett
Kenny Lofton

Jeff Harris
Guest

Lofton, McGriff, Brown

Mike
Guest

Hoffman
Vizquel
McGriff

The Diamond King
Guest

Mattingly, Hoffman, Vizquel

Dr. Remulak
Guest

Mattingly, Key, McGriff

Artie Z
Guest

Lofton, Kevin Brown, Will Clark

Insert Name Here
Guest
So I’m going to use that same method of “peak” WAR/162 over a peak of 5+ years, with the omission of PROVEN cheaters. Also, I know this is contradicting an earlier claim I made, but I honestly am now recognizing Kevin Brown as a cheater who I will not vote for. This vote may seem somewhat out of left field, since it appears to be the first which includes someone not on the given list. Anywhere, here it is: 1. Kevin Appier (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1990-97) 2. Kenny Lofton (6.5 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1992-99) 3.… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest

We might need a little clarification here- does a redemption round ballot even count if it includes someone not on the list?

Is that different from voting for only 1 person?

Hartvig
Guest

OK, just saw the “anyone born between 1960 & 1968 qualifier” that I missed the first time around.

Now I’ve got to think about my vote a bit more.

Insert Name Here
Guest

Yes, it’s occasions like this that I believe are why Appier and Saberhagen are fated to miss out. Oh well.

Brooklyn Mick
Guest

Kenny Lofton, Kevin Brown, David Cone

ATarwerdi96
Guest

Rafael Palmeiro, Kevin Brown, Will Clark

PP
Guest

Lofton, Clark, Brown

Doug
Guest

Brown, McGriff, Lofton

brp
Guest

3Ks: Kenny Lofton, Kirby Puckett, Kevin Brown

Jameson
Guest

I’m with you, Lofton, Puckett, Brown.

MikeD
Guest

Palmeiro, Brown, Puckett.

--bill
Guest

Brown, Palmeiro, Lofton

David Horwich
Guest
So I *must* vote for 3 even if I don’t think there are 3 players worth restoring to the ballot? I think in this kind of vote it’d be better to allow ballots that have less than 3 names. To be concrete: I would vote for Lofton, but that’s really it. I mean, I was a big David Cone fan, & had a lot of respect for McGriff, but I think that both of them fall just a little short of CoG standards. (Similarly Will Clark, and a handful of others – fine players, good careers, but not one of… Read more »
Lawrence Azrin
Guest

– Kenny Lofton
– Jeff Kent
– Jimmy, I mean Fred McGriff

Tom
Guest

Lofton, Brown, Palmeiro

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Kenny Lofton
Kevin Brown
Jamie Moyer

Mike G.
Guest

Brown, Palmeiro, Lofton

Richard Chester
Guest

Mattingly. Puckett. Kent

Dr. Doom
Guest

Brown
Lofton
Saberhagen

Mike HBC
Guest

Again, I think this part of the exercise is rather silly, and again, I think waiting only ten years before one of the rounds is not nearly long enough. But since I’m here:

Jim Abbott
Curtis Pride
Jeff Blauser

GrandyMan
Guest
I like the Curtis Pride vote. I remember watching a game on TV when he was with the Yankees — I think it was 2004 — and, after he caught a fly ball to end an inning, one of the announcers said, “He can’t hear the fans cheering for him, but he knows they are because he can feel the vibrations.” I thought it was pretty cool that a deaf (actually, in his case, 95 percent deaf) player had made it to the big leagues, and I know now from going on this site that he is far from the… Read more »
Mike HBC
Guest

http://www.fitness.gov/meet-our-team/curtis-pride/

Abbott and Pride might not be among the best baseball players ever, but they’re unquestionably in my Circle of Greats. And since none of the guys on these ballots will ever get in to the HHS CoG anyway, why not give my votes to people who I feel are mot deserving of general acclaim? I might as well (along with Blauser, simply because I love the Braves and there was no suitable third choice).

Jason Z
Guest

I still cannot believe Jim Abbott. Great player, extraordinary person.

I also want to give some props to Pete Gray.

He only played one season in the show, during 1945 when the war decimated rosters.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/graype01.shtml

Please look at his page.

The stats are way below average.

He only struck out 11 times in 253 PA.

Did I mention that he had no right arm??

Jason Z
Guest
The mention of Curtis Pride also brings another thought into the melon above my shoulders. William Ellsworth Hoy. Born in 1862, he contracted meningitis at age three and lost his hearing. Anyone interested can view his stats here… http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hoydu01.shtml Nicknamed Dummy at a time when “dumb” was an accepted term for those who could not speak, he was an outstanding player. He played for several teams including the Reds, who brought him back to throw out the first pitch prior to Game 3 of the 1961 World Series. Aged 99, he was able to see the standing ovation he richly… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

From Pete Gray’s b/r page:

Bats: Left, Throws: Left , Fields: Left as well

Chuck
Guest

Tyson Gillies, an outfielder in the Phillies system and who will play for Canada in the WBC next month, is also deaf.

topper009
Guest

So does anyone know if there is any truth to the story that umpires started pointing with their right hand to signify a strike so that a deaf player would know the count?

Richard Chester
Guest

According to the Charlton Chronology, yes.

Hartvig
Guest

I have to admit that the first time I saw your vote (when I was fairly quickly scrolling thru the posts so see how the voting was going) it registered as CHARLEY Pride. And even when I realized that it was Curtis and not Charley and knew him from his days with the Tigers I’m a little embarrassed to say that I had forgotten about his being deaf.

Thanks for providing the impetus to read more about him in B-R Bullpen. Great story.

John Z
Guest
Just want to throw my 2 cents in the fountain here, I’d personally would prefer a ballot that would eliminate hold overs all together every 10 years. Instead of a ballot that would increase the number of hold overs. For example every 10 rounds/years you take the hold overs and have a separate ballot and whom ever receives the most votes out of those hold overs gets selected to the COG and the others are ousted, never to be seen again. I can only imagine the list that will be generated come the 49′ ballot when I “Will Have” to… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest
If we do that in another 40 or 50 years time we’re going to be voting in guys like Nellie Fox or Joe Medwick while far better players can no longer be considered simply because of when they were born. Ten seems to me to be about the maximum number of players that can survive on the ballot for any length of time. Maybe that number will increase to 12 or 13 for a year or 2 at certain points but I think as a general rule that 10 will be the limit. I also think that in a few… Read more »
Brandon
Guest

Kenny Lofton, Kevin Appier, Kevin Brown

Mike L
Guest

Lofton, McGriff, and Kent (sorry, Donnie Baseball)

Baltimorechop
Guest

Lofton brown palmeiro

Darien
Guest

Lofton, McGriff, Kent

latefortheparty
Guest

Kevin Brown
Kenny Lofton
Rafael Palmeiro

Brown has better Hall of Stats numbers and overall WAR than Smoltz. Just saying. I’m glad to see Lofton’s getting some love.

Jeff Hill
Guest

Kenny Lofton, Jeff Kent, Kirby Puckett.

GrandyMan
Guest
Using the “Actual Value” formula I introduced in the 1962 round and refined in the 1959 round, here are the top 7 players: K Brown 95.8 Lofton 94.5 McGwire 90.4 Palmeiro 89.1 Saberhagen 88.9 Cone 88.8 Appier 81.5 Pretty dramatic drop-off after Cone, as you can see. It seems like many here would consider Brown and Lofton to be pretty obvious choices, and my method merely parrots that belief. After that, it gets tricky. I refuse to consider Palmeiro, and McGwire is in that gray area of “guys who used PEDs but didn’t technically cheat, to the best of our… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest
Using the Hall of Stats and JAWS as starting points, you’re looking for scores just a bit north of 125 for the HOS and 50.0 for JAWS. Lofton & Brown are the only 2 to meet both criteria. Palmeiro comes up a bit short on HOS but just clears the bar on JAWS. That puts him at the very bottom of a very crowded, very tight field of maybe 40 to 50 players competing for the last 20 or so spots in the Circle. We’ve already got at least 4 people that I would put in that group on the… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest

Expanding my reasoning on Palmeiro a bit to include McGwire, Cone & Saberhagen I don’t really see that any of them have a better argument for inclusion than he does so I’m sticking with my original vote.

RonG
Guest

Lofton, Clark, McGriff

Joel
Guest

Lofton, Brown, McGwire

Luis Gomez
Guest

Hoffman, Palmeiro, Fernando.

Arsen
Guest

I just can’t see any of these guys being worthy of the Circle of Greats in the long run. Why put them back on the ballot which already seems crowded. These seem like possible inductees for the Circle of Very Good players which we could do after the Circle of Greats voting is done and before The Circle of Pretty Good voting takes place.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor

We’ve defined the Circle of Greats as the 112 greatest players born before 1969. Kevin Brown is 103rd in total WAR (per b-r) in that group. Among pitchers, he’s 33rd in WAR, 39th in ERA+, 46th in K/BB ratio, and 19th in Win Probability Added.

One could make a reasonable argument that Brown is not among the 112 best eligible players, but he should certainly be on the ballot, where we can compare him to his peers, some of whom will make the CoG with lesser resumes.

Mike HBC
Guest

He WAS on the ballot. And (almost) nobody voted for him. That’s why he’s here.

Lawrence Azrin
Guest
I’d rather that we err on the side of having a few too many candidates on any given ballot, than on the side of eliminating afew too many reasonable candidates. No matter where we set the borders, there will always be disagreement concerning where a number of players fall; i.e., are they “above” or “below” whatever theoretical “in/out” line each of us are using? With an initial limit of 112 players total for the COG project, it isn’t difficult to see “Theoretical Borderline Player, #112” ranked #100-110 by many people, and also ranked #115-125 by others. The actual difference between… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest
I would say if anything you’ve actually understated how close it is when you get to the margins. For the Hall of Stats Sandberg ranks 9th at 2nd base with a score of 130, Biggio is 10th with 128 and Alomar is 12th with 126. Raines is 10th in left field with a score of 129 and Gwynn is 12th in right field with a score of 127. Sandberg is a bit further ahead in JAWS- 55.3 vs. 51.9 & 51.3 for Alomar & Biggio. Since JAWS places Rod Carew at 2nd base (HOS has him at first) Alomar and… Read more »
bstar
Guest

A discussion at the Book blog introduced me to the concept of judging a player’s primary position not by playing time or at-bats but by value.

In other words, at which position did Rod Carew provide more value? He started playing first primarily in 1976. Giving all the seasonal WAR to the primary position played that year, I get 39.8 2B WAR for Carew and 36.8 1B WAR. He’s a second baseman.

This method also makes A-Rod a shortstop. And it keeps Paul Molitor at 3B instead of DH.

Lawrence Azrin
Guest

Most people would make the same argument for putting Robin Yount and Ernie Banks at SS. Not really sure _where_ to put Pete Rose (1st; LF; 3rd; 2B; RF – in order of games).

KIllebrew ends up at 1st, though he played plenty of 3rd and LF. Likewise Musial is usually in LF, though he could also be at 1st or in RF.

bstar
Guest
Pete Rose is a really unusual case, and we need to understand it’s unusual because he was so versatile. His best WAR year and only MVP was as a left fielder. Is this because of positional adjustment? NO, it’s because Pete was an exceptional (according to the metrics) defensive left fielder. He posted consecutive years of +12, +20, +20 fielding runs in left. It looks like it comes down to LF vs. 3B as far as value for Rose. Pete played four full years at each position. Here’s the WAR totals: Rose in LF (’67, ’72-’74): 24.9 WAR Rose at… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest

I also prefer to at least start from that perspective while at least keeping in mind things like for half of his career Ernie Banks was ARod and for the other half he was basically Dan Driessen. I know WAR is supposed to account for that but I still find it helpful to think that way.

koma
Guest

Trevor Hoffman, Jamie Moyer, Omar Vizquel

Nick Pain
Guest

Rafael Palmeiro, Kevin Brown, Mark McGwire.

Andrew
Guest

Kent, Lofton, Hoffman

Fireworks
Guest

Hoffman isn’t Mo, but Raines isn’t Henderson either. No one likes Brown or Kent, but no one liked Cobb either.

I’m disappointed that I have to vote for guys with crappy/non-existent nicknames, so I’ll just give them nicknames.

Trevor “Not That ‘The Hoff'” Hoffman, Kevin “What Can Brown Do For You?” Brown, and Jeff “Not As Disliked As Barry Bonds” Kent.

A shout out to the Crime Dog for having the best nickname. Sorry buddy.

J.R. Lebert
Guest

Lofton, Kevin Brown, Puckett.

Abbott
Guest

Kent, Brown, Hoffman

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons: Brown 42.6 Lofton 39.5 Cone 39.0 McGwire 38.8 Saberhagen 37.6 Appier 34.3 Palmeiro 33.8 Kent 29.8 Ventura 29.3 Clark 29.2 Olerud 28.1 Puckett 26.7 McGriff 25.5 Vizquel 15.4 Hoffman 15.1 Among this group, only Brown and Lofton are among the 112 leaders in career WAR among players born before 1969. Cone and McGwire miss by less than five wins. I think we have to consider those four and Hoffman, who doesn’t really get an apples-to-apples comparison with WAR/WAA. Apologies to Ventura and Kent, who were arguably among the dozen best players ever at their… Read more »
MichaelPat
Guest

McGriff
Kent
Olerud

Lineman
Guest

Lofton, Ventura, Cone

Brendan Bingham
Guest

Palmiero, McGriff, Lofton

opal611
Guest
For Redemption Round #1, I’m voting for: –Rafael Palmeiro -Jeff Kent -Kirby Puckett I like the idea of the redemption rounds and I think it will come in handy in the future. As of now, however, there’s nobody eligible for redemption that I’d consider higher than folks who are currently still on the ballot. Other folks I considered/reconsidered for redemption: -Lofton -Brown -McGwire -Sosa -McGriff -Hoffman (I’m still not sure what to do with a guy like him…hard to compare him to the folks I’ve/we’ve been voting for, but I wish he would have been able to stay on the… Read more »
Hub Kid
Guest

Kenny Lofton, Mark McGwire, Bret Saberhagen.

All 3 are players I didn’t get to vote for earlier. I really feel McGwire should get some credit for his confession, as incomplete as it was. If players are treated just as badly after they come clean as before, what incentive is there to come clean? Of course, I know that that is not a stats based argument.

wpDiscuz