Cy-onara, Brandon … Say it ain’t so, Chris!
The usually hopeful time between Super Bowl and “pitchers & catchers” brought a double dose of sad news from NL Cy Young Award winners.
Brandon Webb is retiring, nearly four years since he last pitched in the majors. Webb becomes the 27th modern pitcher to retire with 80+ wins before age 30, but none thereafter — and arguably the best of that bunch, based on WAR per 250 innings:
80+ wins before age 30 / No wins in rest of career
| Pitcher | WAR/ 250 IP |
WAR | IP | ERA+ | W-L | G | GS | CG | Years | |
| 1) | Brandon Webb | 6.0 | 31.7 | 1315.2 | 143 | 87-62 | 198 | 197 | 15 | 2003-2008 |
| 2) | Noodles Hahn | 5.3 | 29.9 | 1409.0 | 135 | 91-66 | 166 | 160 | 151 | 1901-1906 |
| 3) | Smoky Joe Wood | 4.9 | 28.3 | 1432.1 | 149 | 117-57 | 224 | 158 | 121 | 1908-1919 |
| 4) | Jim Maloney | 4.6 | 33.5 | 1802.0 | 119 | 134-80 | 282 | 255 | 74 | 1960-1969 |
| 5) | Ray Collins | 4.1 | 21.7 | 1336.0 | 116 | 84-62 | 199 | 151 | 90 | 1909-1915 |
| 6) | Reb Russell | 3.9 | 19.9 | 1291.2 | 121 | 80-59 | 241 | 148 | 81 | 1913-1918 |
| 7) | Don Wilson | 3.7 | 25.8 | 1748.1 | 109 | 104-92 | 266 | 245 | 78 | 1966-1974 |
| 8) | Gary Nolan | 3.6 | 23.9 | 1674.2 | 117 | 110-70 | 250 | 247 | 45 | 1967-1977 |
| 9) | Mark Mulder | 3.5 | 18.2 | 1312.1 | 106 | 103-60 | 202 | 202 | 25 | 2000-2007 |
| 10) | Jim Scott | 3.4 | 26.1 | 1892.0 | 121 | 107-114 | 317 | 226 | 123 | 1909-1917 |
| 11) | Jim Shaw | 2.7 | 17.5 | 1600.1 | 99 | 84-98 | 287 | 194 | 96 | 1913-1921 |
| 12) | Don Gullett | 2.7 | 15.0 | 1390.0 | 113 | 109-50 | 266 | 186 | 44 | 1970-1978 |
| 13) | Jim Merritt | 2.5 | 14.2 | 1446.2 | 99 | 81-86 | 266 | 191 | 56 | 1965-1973 |
| 14) | Lefty Williams | 2.4 | 11.6 | 1186.0 | 99 | 82-48 | 189 | 152 | 80 | 1913-1920 |
| 15) | Ralph Branca | 2.4 | 14.3 | 1482.0 | 104 | 88-68 | 321 | 188 | 71 | 1944-1954 |
| 16) | Willie Mitchell | 2.4 | 15.7 | 1632.0 | 104 | 83-92 | 276 | 190 | 93 | 1909-1919 |
| 17) | Denny McLain | 2.4 | 18.0 | 1886.0 | 101 | 131-91 | 280 | 264 | 105 | 1963-1972 |
| 18) | Carl Lundgren | 2.4 | 12.5 | 1322.0 | 112 | 91-55 | 179 | 149 | 125 | 1902-1909 |
| 19) | Erskine Mayer | 2.1 | 12.1 | 1427.0 | 99 | 91-70 | 245 | 164 | 93 | 1912-1919 |
| 20) | Tom Seaton | 1.9 | 10.2 | 1340.0 | 103 | 92-65 | 231 | 155 | 90 | 1912-1917 |
| 21) | Pete Donohue | 1.8 | 15.3 | 2083.0 | 104 | 134-116 | 334 | 264 | 137 | 1921-1930 |
| 22) | Tom Brewer | 1.8 | 11.0 | 1509.1 | 104 | 91-82 | 241 | 217 | 75 | 1954-1961 |
| 23) | Art Houtteman | 1.6 | 9.7 | 1555.0 | 99 | 87-91 | 325 | 181 | 78 | 1945-1957 |
| 24) | Bob Rhoads | 1.4 | 9.6 | 1691.2 | 100 | 97-82 | 218 | 185 | 154 | 1902-1909 |
| 25) | Larry Christenson | 1.4 | 7.6 | 1402.2 | 99 | 83-71 | 243 | 220 | 27 | 1973-1983 |
| 26) | Pol Perritt | 1.1 | 6.7 | 1469.2 | 95 | 92-78 | 256 | 177 | 93 | 1912-1921 |
| 27) | Frank Owen | 0.9 | 5.0 | 1368.1 | 100 | 82-67 | 194 | 155 | 119 | 1901-1909 |
(Stats are since 1901 and through age 29.)
Webb and McLain are the only Cy Young Award or MVP winners on this list. (Smoky Joe Wood might have won such an award in 1912, had one existed.) Webb won the Cy Young in 2006, then finished 2nd in 2007 (when he tossed 42 straight scoreless innings) and again in 2008. I believe that Webb, Fergie Jenkins and Warren Spahn are the only one-time CYA winners who also finished 2nd twice (thrice for Spahnie).
Webb’s 31.7 WAR in his first 6 years ranks 16th in modern history. And only Webb, Hideo Nomo, Tom Seaver and Don Sutton began their careers with 6 years of at least 160 strikeouts; Tim Lincecum can join that club this year.
Here’s another list: Pitchers with 20+ WAR through age 29 and less than 1 WAR thereafter. Once again, stats are since 1901 and through age 29 again, this time sorted by WAR:
20+ WAR before age 30 / Less than 1 WAR in rest of career
| Pitcher | WAR/ 250 IP |
WAR | IP | ERA+ | W-L | G | GS | CG | Years | |
| 1) | Wes Ferrell | 4.9 | 47.2 | 2406.2 | 123 | 175-115 | 338 | 291 | 215 | 1927-1937 |
| 2) | Dizzy Dean | 5.5 | 41.6 | 1908.1 | 133 | 147-80 | 305 | 219 | 151 | 1930-1939 |
| 3) | Sam McDowell | 4.3 | 39.1 | 2274.0 | 115 | 132-117 | 364 | 320 | 101 | 1961-1972 |
| 4) | Jim Maloney | 4.6 | 33.5 | 1802.0 | 119 | 134-80 | 282 | 255 | 74 | 1960-1969 |
| 5) | Dutch Leonard | 4.1 | 33.1 | 2015.0 | 118 | 125-107 | 304 | 248 | 140 | 1913-1921 |
| 6) | Jose Rijo | 4.7 | 32.4 | 1717.0 | 124 | 106-83 | 318 | 246 | 22 | 1984-1994 |
| 7) | Larry Dierker | 3.5 | 31.9 | 2294.1 | 104 | 137-117 | 345 | 320 | 106 | 1964-1976 |
| 8) | Brandon Webb | 6.0 | 31.7 | 1315.2 | 143 | 87-62 | 198 | 197 | 15 | 2003-2008 |
| 9) | Dean Chance | 3.9 | 31.7 | 2057.2 | 120 | 124-109 | 375 | 280 | 83 | 1961-1970 |
| 10) | Noodles Hahn | 5.3 | 29.9 | 1409.0 | 135 | 91-66 | 166 | 160 | 151 | 1901-1906 |
| 11) | Johnny Antonelli | 4.1 | 29.6 | 1821.1 | 122 | 119-99 | 316 | 251 | 101 | 1948-1959 |
| 12) | Willis Hudlin | 3.5 | 28.4 | 2024.1 | 108 | 125-116 | 353 | 251 | 126 | 1926-1935 |
| 13) | Smoky Joe Wood | 4.9 | 28.3 | 1432.1 | 149 | 117-57 | 224 | 158 | 121 | 1908-1919 |
| 14) | Jim Scott | 3.4 | 26.1 | 1892.0 | 121 | 107-114 | 317 | 226 | 123 | 1909-1917 |
| 15) | Don Wilson | 3.7 | 25.8 | 1748.1 | 109 | 104-92 | 266 | 245 | 78 | 1966-1974 |
| 16) | Ken Holtzman | 2.7 | 25.3 | 2360.2 | 111 | 151-124 | 348 | 336 | 108 | 1965-1975 |
| 17) | Ewell Blackwell | 4.9 | 25.2 | 1297.1 | 121 | 80-77 | 226 | 165 | 69 | 1942-1952 |
| 18) | Mario Soto | 3.9 | 25.2 | 1611.2 | 111 | 94-83 | 277 | 204 | 69 | 1977-1986 |
| 19) | Alex Fernandez | 3.7 | 25.1 | 1708.0 | 115 | 103-83 | 255 | 253 | 33 | 1990-1999 |
| 20) | Johnny Podres | 3.6 | 24.7 | 1692.2 | 111 | 115-84 | 299 | 252 | 62 | 1953-1962 |
| 21) | Ben Sheets | 4.2 | 24.1 | 1428.0 | 115 | 86-83 | 221 | 221 | 18 | 2001-2008 |
| 22) | Gary Nolan | 3.6 | 23.9 | 1674.2 | 117 | 110-70 | 250 | 247 | 45 | 1967-1977 |
| 23) | Ismael Valdez | 3.7 | 23.8 | 1606.2 | 107 | 88-94 | 277 | 250 | 12 | 1994-2003 |
| 24) | Ray Collins | 4.1 | 21.7 | 1336.0 | 116 | 84-62 | 199 | 151 | 90 | 1909-1915 |
| 25) | Dave Righetti | 5.3 | 21.5 | 1014.2 | 128 | 71-54 | 414 | 76 | 13 | 1979-1988 |
| 26) | Frank Sullivan | 4.0 | 21.5 | 1351.2 | 128 | 84-64 | 212 | 179 | 68 | 1953-1959 |
| 27) | Carl Weilman | 4.0 | 21.4 | 1337.2 | 119 | 75-80 | 209 | 155 | 92 | 1912-1919 |
| 28) | Orval Overall | 3.6 | 21.0 | 1467.1 | 125 | 104-66 | 207 | 173 | 127 | 1905-1910 |
| 29) | Pedro Ramos | 2.4 | 20.4 | 2085.0 | 96 | 105-142 | 412 | 267 | 73 | 1955-1964 |
| 30) | George McQuillan | 4.0 | 20.2 | 1278.2 | 116 | 72-68 | 208 | 141 | 90 | 1907-1914 |
| 31) | Dick Ellsworth | 2.4 | 20.0 | 2081.2 | 100 | 112-133 | 353 | 309 | 87 | 1958-1969 |
____________________
Another Cy of Disappointment
The other cleat was dropped by Chris Carpenter. The 2005 CYA winner is likely out for the coming season — and maybe done for good — with a recurrence of the nerve problem that limited him to six games last year. (Three of those starts came in the postseason; is there another pitcher with 3+ postseason starts and no more than that in the regular year? Or no regular-season wins?)
Carpenter is 95-44 with St. Louis, and holds franchise records with a 133 ERA+ (tied with three from the ’40s dynasty), a .683 winning percentage, and 10 postseason wins. He’s the only pitcher since Bob Gibson to notch 20+ WAR as a Cardinal. (Redbirds fans expect to see Adam Wainwright join that club this season.)
In 18 postseason starts, Carpenter is 10-4 with a 3.00 ERA, and his team is 13-5. His best was probably a 3-hit, 1-0 road shutout against his ex-teammate, Roy Halladay, in the 2011 first-round clincher (the game where Ryan Howard blew out his Achilles). In the only Cardinals postseason shutout since 1987, Carpenter walked none and let just 2 runners past 1st base. He followed that up with three strong starts in the World Series, including game 7. He’s the only pitcher since Curt Schilling in 2001 with 3 Quality Starts in a World Series.
It looks grim for Carpenter, but if he does try a comeback, he certainly knows the drill. After missing all of 2003 — his career record was then 49-50 with a 4.83 ERA — Carpenter in the next three years went 51-18 with a 3.10 ERA, winning one CYA and placing 3rd when Webb won; he was 2nd in NL wins and 5th in WAR in that span. Then came a 2007 Opening Day injury (two years before Webb’s similar fate) that cost him almost two full seasons — whereupon he roared back to win the 2009 ERA crown, coming thisclose to another Cy despite missing a month.
P.S. Surprised? Out of 121 modern pitchers who logged 20+ WAR in their 30s, over 40% had (like Carpenter) less than 10 WAR through age 29, including seven who didn’t even pitch in their 20s.
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The Reds had their share of pitchers on that list. Maloney, Nolan, Merritt and Gullett were all members of the 1970 pennant winners. Wayne Simpson, who was nearly unbeatable in the first half of that year, was another pitcher with a substantially abbreviated career.
Steven, good point about those Reds. Maloney and Nolan especially raise thoughts of “what might have been.”
Maloney is well within the top 50 since 1901 for both Wins and WAR through age 29. Nolan is in the top 25 for those categories through age 24.
Also Noodles Hahn.
The above list (being modern) is from 1901 onward. I would like to throw out that if you give Noodles 1899 & 1900, his war goes to 44 even bWar, pitching.
Yeah, Larry Shepherd was tougher on “arms” than a liberal congressman
Shortly thereafter, Sparky Anderson started earning the nickname, “Captain Hook,” beginning the decline of the Complete Game.
I can see a lot of similarities between Brandon Webb and another guy from the previous decade who seemed destined for the Hall of Fame after his first six years: Roy Oswalt. Look at the numbers:
B Webb 2003-2008 31.7 WAR / 142 ERA+ / 1 Cy Young, three top-2 finishes
Oswalt 2001-2006 28.8 WAR / 143 ERA+ / 5 top-5 Cy Young finishes
Oswalt needs to recharge his career if he’s going to end up a worthy Hall candidate.
I wouldn’t be surprised at all to hear Chris Carpenter say he might attempt another comeback.
Good match on Oswalt, bstar.
Walter Johnson, Carl Hubbell, Robin Roberts, Tom Seaver, Roy Oswalt: The 5 modern pitchers with 2+ WAR in their first 11 season. Would be nice to see Roy get back on that beam.
I tend to group Oswalt and Tim Hudson together, though Hudson has pulled ahead a bit in the past year or two. They’ve both had fine careers but tend to get overlooked and I have a feeling neither will draw much HOF support. Combined they have 13 top ten WAR finishes but no Cy Youngs. So I have a feeling they’ll be viewed as “not dominant enough”. Oswalt did lead the NL in pitcher WAR in 2007 but it was the lowest NL leading pitcher WAR since Gooden in 1984 (though Kershaw had a lower figure last year).
That 2009 Cy Young that Carpenter didn’t quite win was almost certainly Adam Wainwright’s fault. Faced with a straight choice between the W-L records and ERAs of Carpenter and Lincecum, I’m sure the voters would have plumped for Carpenter easily. Wainwright’s 19 wins were a complicating factor.
Also JA, Lincecum had only 150 Ks in his first year (at a healthy 9.2 K/9 mind) so unless you meant to say 150 instead of 160, he can’t join the Webb/Nomo/Seaver/Sutton club.
RJ, thanks for the correction. Lincecum showed up as a “5″ in that search and I mistakenly thought he had just those seasons.
Gotta give baseball writers their due, they have been perusing the PED users hard! Like to see this same fervor in political reporting.
Two things came to mind here: First, I’ve been fascinated by Noodles Hahn for the last few months, but I hadn’t noticed there was a modern Noodles right under our noses. Now that he’s retired, can we call him Noodles Webb.
Second, someone gave Justin Verlander a first place Cy Young vote in 2009.
Verlander was actually a great candidate from a fielding-independent standpoint (3.45 ERA, 2.80 FIP in 240 innings, 8.3 fWAR). Then again, this is the year Greinke had a 2.16 ERA and a 2.33 FIP in 229 1/3 innings and 9.3 fWAR. Wins.
Hahn’s name comes up whenever someone gets 20 wins on a last-place team, as he did in 1901.
Here’s a challenge for the committee: Find another pitcher-season with WAR greater than his entire team’s total. In 1901, Hahn was credited with 7.6 WAR; the team (including Hahn) totaled 7.3 WAR.
Here’s a head start on my question @12:
- Randy Johnson, 2004: 8.1 WAR, team 1.0 WAR (and by the way, I’m talking about total team WAR, not just the pitching staff)
- Walter Johnson never did it.
Also, Phil Niekro (8.6) on the 1977 Braves (7.6).
Jeff Burroughs on those ’77 Braves: 41 HRs, 86 walks, .271 BA … and 0.5 WAR, thanks to his astounding -3.4 dWAR.
Here’s another one, John.
Irv Young of the 1905 Boston Beaneaters: 8.8, Whole team: 8.1
Irv was a rookie that season.
In 1950 Ned Garver of the Browns had a WAR of 7.1. The combined offensive and pitching WARs for the team added up to 6.3.
Way to go, Richard!
Thought Steve Carlton (’72) would qualify but his 11.7 WAR is less than the team total of 15.1.
Got one! Bullet Joe Bush on the 1916 A’s. 5.5 WAR vs. a team WAR of 3.0. Oddly, position player Amos Strunk (5.1 WAR) also beat the team total. And Wally Schang (2.8) and Stuffy McInnis (2.1) came close. Those four must have been miserable playing with their teammates.
“Ed’s in the club!”
Those 1916 A’s have the worst modern W% — 36-117, .235. The pitching staff, outside of Bush, was uniformly awful.
On a tangent … how bad was the timing of Elmer Myers? He played for 3 clubs in his 8 seasons:
- Started with the A’s in 1915, just after the first dynasty.
- Played for Cleveland in 1919-20, but waived during their championship year.
- Claimed by the Red Sox in 1920, their first year post-Ruth.
Garver also did it for the 1951 Browns, 5.3 vs. 1.7.
Actually 19 of the 20 pitchers for the 2003 Tigers qualify (poor Jeremy Bonderman!). Total team WAR was -0.9 and only Bonderman has a WAR lower than that among the pitchers.
19! pitchers. Wow, that’s amazingly bad offense.
The 2003 Tigers’ pitchers clocked in at -2.8.
Offense, 1.9
Their 2nd best player, after Dmitri Young (3.1), was…….
Warren Morris (1.5)
…who was playing in his final season, and raked this line:
.272 .316 .373 .689 87
Alan Trammell used 131 different batting orders.
Unfortunately, 103 of them featured Bobby Higginson as his #3 hitter:
.235 .320 .369 .689 88
More Noodles notes: Hahn is one of four pitchers who began their careers with six straight years at 5+ WAR, joining Kid Nichols, Joe McGinnity and Pete Alexander. Nichols stretched his streak to 11 years, the longest from start of career.
If we set the bar at 6 WAR (cherry-picking for Hahn), Nichols and Alexander stay, McGinnity drops out. Nichols is the only one who meets the 7-WAR bar for first 6 seasons … but 3 of those were before the distance was increased to 60′ 6″.
Francisco Rodriguez, although not a starter, had 5 postseason wins in 2002 before getting his first career regular season win in 2003. In the 2002 regular season, he pitched in 5 games for 5.2 innings (striking out 13 of the 21 batters he faced), but appeared in 11 postseason games for 18.2 innings (striking out 28 of the 70 batters he faced).
Good find on K-Rod, leatherman.
I’ve now checked the 63 times that a *starting* pitcher won 3+ games in one postseason. Unless I missed something, Carpenter’s 3 regular-season wins in 2011 is by far the lowest; I think the next-lowest is 8, by Jaret Wright 1997 and Jeff Weaver 2006.Sorry about that — I completely confused the issue with that statement. Carpenter did not win 3 postseason starts in 2012 — he *made* 3 such starts, going 1-2. And I’m not about to check all the pitchers who merely made 3 starts in a postseason to see how many they made in the regular season.
In 1952 Joe Black of the Dodgers started 3 games in the WS and just 2 during the regular season. He was 1-2 in the WS and 1-1 during the regular season. He relieved 54 times during the regular season. The starts were in his final 2 appearances.
I am pretty sure I brought this up at the time that Carpenter won against the Nationals in the playoffs, but Virgil (Fire) Trucks only started one game in 1945 (I would guess without looking he was in the military), then started two games against the Cubs in the WS (winning one of them, a complete game 4-1 victory in game 2)
Yadier not having 20 WAR yet tells you all you need to know about how fairly dWAR works…
Ah, I see now that the comment was related to PITCHERS only with 20 WAR. Of course Puhols and many other hitters shattered that. Yadier’s 19.5 WAR aside…
mosc, I don’t get your point here. Since his 2004 debut, Yadier Molina ranks 9th overall in dWAR, and 1st among catchers. Do you think dWAR slights him?
As to his total WAR, the fact is that through 2010 he was not a good hitter (combined 82 OPS+).
Yes, I think dwar slights him but more to the point all catchers. Why I chose to even bring up this point though was in error for this particular thread.
I think my mental dWAR calculation is different in two major ways
1) The positional adjustments are not right
2) The range of values from best to worst players at a given position is often too large
Sorry for the side track.
mosc, I’m a big sidetracker myself, so don’t sweat it.
Re: Fergie and Spahn with one CYA and two times in second
Quite a few have a first, second and third, incl. Catfish, Guidry, Valenzuela, Verlander, Carpenter.