Circle of Greats 1928 Part 2 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 53rd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round complete the addition of those players born in 1928.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1928 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — the second half by alphabetical order this round, while the first half by alphabetical order was brought on in last week’s round.  This week’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

As usual, the new group of 1928-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more (but less than 75%) of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility. Should a candidate ever appear on over 75% of the ballots but not win induction, he would gain six future rounds of ballot eligibility

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EDT Monday, April 7, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EDT Saturday, April 5.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1928 Round 2 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1928 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The 13 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The new group of 1928 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.  In total there were 20 players born in 1928 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement.  Ten of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Jim Lemon to Daryl Spencer).  The ten players higher up in the alphabet were on last week’s ballot.

Holdovers:
Sandy Koufax (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
Juan Marichal (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Ernie Banks (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round  only)

Everyday Players (born in 1928, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Pete Runnels
Jim Lemon
Al Smith
Billy Martin
Gil McDougald
Hal Naragon
Bubba Phillips
Daryl Spencer

Pitchers (born in 1928, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Joe Nuxhall
Erv Palica

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157 Comments on "Circle of Greats 1928 Part 2 Balloting"

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Chris C
Guest

Marichal, Biggio, Edgar

Mo
Guest

Koufax, marichal , grich

Gary Bateman
Guest

Marichal, Ford, Banks

T-Bone
Guest

Sandberg
Banks
Koufax

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

How did Erv Palica get on the list?

9 seasons,
7 WAR

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
“Probably two weeks prior to that, I was pitching against seventh, eighth and ninth graders, kids 13 and 14 years old. All of a sudden, I look up and there’s Stan Musial . . .” – Joe Nuxhall, about his first game as a 15-year-old major leaguer. ________________________ Nuxhall was actually discovered while the Reds were scouting his 34-year-old father, Orville, to fill their World War II-depleted roster. Instead, they liked what they saw of the younger Nuxhall, and the club signed him to a $175 per month contract after the school year ended. He spent most of his time… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Nuxhall might hold the record for having his best season 19 years after his debut.

Richard Chester
Guest

Pete Runnels holds the seasonal record for most CS without ever stealing a base. In 1952 had had 10 CS and 0 SB.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Runnels certainly benefited from the move from Griffith Stadium to Fenway.

in Washington
.281 .363 .355 .718

in Boston
.332 .418 .422 .840

Richard Chester
Guest

Being tutored by Ted Williams certainly didn’t hurt. At his own request he was traded to Houston after winning the AL batting title in 1962, Texas was his home. Outside of Rogers Hornsby, offhand, I can’t think of any other players who were traded after winning a batting title.

no statistician but
Guest

RC:

The notorious Colavito for Kuenn trade.

David P
Guest

Also Bill Madlock was traded from the Cubs to the Giants following his ’76 batting title.

no statistician but
Guest

David P @34:

If I remember rightly, Madlock asked for $200,000. Bill Wrigley offered half that unconditionally and decided that Madlock was some kind of trouble maker, so he traded him to the Giants for Bobby Murcer with some others thrown in on both sides. The Giants appear to have signed him for $260,000. The Cubs signed Murcer for . . . $320,000.

Richard Chester
Guest

Ernie Lombardi led the NL with a .330 BA in 1942 while playing for the Braves. He asked for a raise but due to Treasury Department WWII wage guidelines the Braves could not meet his demands. The Giants were able to meet those demands, so that’s where Ernie ended up.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Just a quick bit about Billy Martin, as a Manager.
Every team he ever managed got better.

Here are the teams, the year before Billy, and his first year:

Twins
79-83
97-65

Tigers
79-83
91-71

Rangers
57-105
84-76

Yankees
83-77
97-62

Athletics
54-108
83-79

Yankees
79-83
91-71

Yankees
87-75
97-64

Andy
Guest

Banks, Marichal, Koufax

BillH
Guest

Murray, Marichal, Ford

also wanna vote for McCovey, Banks, Koufax and (eventually)3 second basemen, one of whom also caught and played CF- you’ll have to figure that one out.

koma
Guest

Sandy Koufax, John Smoltz, Craig Biggio

Francisco
Guest

Juan Marichal, Sandy Koufax, Harmon Killebrew

Hartvig
Guest
It does seem odd that at one point the Washington Senators- playing in cavernous Griffith Stadium- would at the same time have Jim Lemon, Harmon Killebrew and Roy Sievers on their roster, any of whom could have served at some point as the archetype of the slow, lumbering slugger playing outfield that seemed to be so common in the 50’s. I’m sorely tempted to vote for Gil McDougald. It’s said by some that his versatility made a genius out of Casey Stengel. I think it’s very conceivable that playing in a different ballpark for a different manager he could have… Read more »
no statistician but
Guest

Hartvig:

Actually, they moved in the fences at Griffith, dramatically in left field, in the mid fifties.

JEV
Guest

Koufax, McCovey, Banks

Mike HBC
Guest

Just like last time: Koufax, Grich, Smoltz.

Mike L
Guest
MJ
Guest

Bobby Grich, John Smoltz, Edgar Martinez

mosc
Guest

I see no reason to change my vote. Everyone got 10% last round and there’s less on the ballot this year.

Koufax, Ford, Smoltz

I would love to see smoltz get above 25% again. Look again, you know he deserves it. Don’t just assume he’s defacto in by staying on the ballot this long.

Jeff Harris
Guest

Edgar Martinez, Grich, Smoltz. Taking up the fight for Grich now that Sweet Lou is in.

aweb
Guest

Grich – I’ve voted for Grich a ton, maybe he makes it?
Killebrew – gets punished for playing 3B/LF terribly when he should have been installed at 1B and played slightly below average defense. Also a terrible average in a time when BA was king.
Lofton – One of the weirdest careers – 10 teams for no more than 1 year? Always good enough to pick up, but after Cleveland, no one would commit to him. A lot of defensive and baserunning value for a very long time.

Michael Sullivan
Guest
If you add up Killebrew’s rField and rPos numbers, they total -155. Taking the season where he played 160 games at 1B as representative of what his rPos would look like if he’d played only 1B, he had -9 for 689 PAs, average that over his entire career and you get -128 for rPos. That means if he’d been an average fielder at 1B he’d have 3 more bWAR over his career. But when he played 1B, he was slightly below average. So if he’s -1 run rField at 1B per season, that means he’d have about 1.5 bWAR more… Read more »
bstar
Guest

I see little variation in Killebrew’s defensive value (Rfield + Rpos) across the different positions he played. Here’s some examples:

1959: -9 Rfield, +2 Rpos = -0.8 dWAR, regular at 3B
1960: -7 Rfield, -3 Rpos = -1.1 dWAR, split time between 1B/3B
1962-1964 avg: -6 Rfield, -7 Rpos = -1.6 dWAR in LF per year
1967: -4 Rfield, -9 Rpos = -1.8 dWAR, full-time 1B
1970: -10 Rfield, +1 Rpos = -1.1 dWAR, 3B/1B (84% at 3B)
1972: 0 Rfield, -7 Rpos = -0.9 dWAR, full-time 1B

mosc
Guest

Another great example of why positional adjustments are so important. A below average third basemen being an average first basemen shouldn’t surprise anybody. In fact multi-position players who put up similar total DWAR at varying positions are supportive evidence that the positional adjustments are correct.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons:

Grich 43.6
Martinez 41.3
Smoltz 40.1
Lofton 39.3
McCovey 38.9
Sandberg 38.8
Banks 36.8
Biggio 36.3
Murray 33.7
Killebrew 33.0
Marichal 32.7
Koufax 32.3
Ford 29.3

I keep voting for these same three guys, but I think this is the first time they’ve been first, second, and third in positive WAA.

Grich, Martinez, Smoltz

Dr. Doom
Guest

Boy do the Rfield numbers ever back up Gil McDougald’s reputation! Being +90 runs in a career (with no negative seasons at that) is impressive, but even moreso when you consider that McDougald rarely played full seasons. An intriguing candidate who won’t get much support, but deserves a second look and a tip-of-the-cap.

Anyway, to the voting:

Ernie Banks
Bobby Grich
Juan Marichal

Artie Z.
Guest
McDougald’s first 10 years looks like a slightly older, slightly more versatile, slightly less playing time version of Lou Whitaker. 5398 PAs, 40.7 WAR, 31.0 oWAR, 14.0 dWAR, 24.1 WAA – McDougald career 6078 PAs, 42.7 WAR, 36.3 oWAR, 11.5 dWAR, 23.7 WAA – Whitaker 1977-1987 6042 PAs, 43.4 WAR, 38.5 oWAR, 9.8 dWAR, 24.6 WAA – Whitaker 1980-1989 I have 1977-1987 as Whitaker’s first 10 years because he only played 11 games in 1977. The 1980-1989 seasons are Whitaker’s age 23-32 seasons (the same age as McDougald’s career). Looking at the breakdown of Rbat, Rfield, etc. shows McDougald as… Read more »
John Autin
Editor

McDougald’s strong rate of WAR per game does lift his standing in my book, but only so far.

— He’s #298 in total WAR among all position players, and 37th among those with 500+ games at 2B. But …
— In WARprod, my mash-up stat — the product of WAR and WAR/G — he’s #205 overall, and somewhere between 25th and 30th among second basemen.
— Among those with 30+ career WAR and 500 G at 2B, McDougald is 20th in WAR/G.

P.S. Would anyone be interested in a post about WARprod?

Bryan O'Connor
Editor

From you, John, I’d be interested in a post about WARcrud.

bells
Guest

well, I’ve already taken to it, incorporating it into my CoG voting, so I’m a resounding yes.

Dr. Remulak
Guest

Biggio, Ford, Koufax.

brp
Guest

Grich
Lofton
Marichal

Bix
Guest

Koufax, Marichal, McCovey

Abbott
Guest

Murray, Biggio, McCovey

CursedClevelander
Guest

Same as Part 1: Ford, Grich, Lofton.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Vote:

Kenny Lofton
Billy Martin
Gil McDougald

jajacob
Guest

Grich, Smoltz, Lofton, I like Martinez but I get the feeling that his WAR would have been less if he had played in the field. Just enough to place Lofton ahead. I know its a very subjective comment not objective.

mosc
Guest

I think it’s pretty clear that his glove was well above your typical DH-type levels but he was pretty injury prone. More a DH by optimization than lack of fielding skill. He has a positive RFIELD at third which matches the opinions at the time.

I penalize him more as a big bat in the steroids era who had little to no pop before age 32 and then all of the sudden was one of the top 3 hitters in baseball for 7 years. If I’m totally off base then I’m persecuting an innocent by association.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Making sense of Martinez…
Essentially three years playing the field.
Negative baserunner.

He did that one thing well.
How well?

178th in Plate Appearances
_____
125th in HomeRuns
80 th in Times On Base
50 th in Doubles
41 st in RE24
30 th in Adjusted Batting Runs
_____
21st in OBP
44th in OPS+

_____________

For much of his peak he batted cleanup, without much ‘protection’ behind him.
But Alex Rodriguez and Ken Griffey Jr. in front of him.

ATarwerdi96
Guest

Ernie Banks, Bobby Grich, Edgar Martinez

bells
Guest
Here’s the vote according to my methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – is it too new to call it ‘classic’? Well, it’s the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ – adding… Read more »
Doug
Editor
Some tidbits on new players appearing on this week’s ballot. – Pete Runnels ranked 7th in the majors in PA for 1952-63. Runnels, Eddie Mathews and Nellie Fox were the only players with 120 games and 400 PA in each of those seasons. – Jim Lemon was the first AL player with a season (1956) of 20 HR, 75 RBI and 125 SO (following Steve Bilko from last week’s ballot, the first to do so in the NL). Lemon’s 144 career HR as a pre-1961 Senator rank 2nd all-time, behind only teammate Roy Sievers. – Until Grady Sizemore matched the… Read more »
Richard Chester
Guest

This past Feb. 16 you and I found that Naragon. Maury Wills and Pat Duncan were the only players, since 1916, to have played on their birthday in the WS and the regular season. You also said that Wills was the only one to get a hit in both the WS and the regular season. Naragon did not get a hit in the WS. He did not even get a PA, he was a defensive replacement for Jim Hegan after Hegan was pinch-hit for.

Doug
Guest

Thanks for the correction, Richard.

I’ll fix it.

BTW, can also add Johnny Podres to list of players to appear in a birthday game in the regular season and WS.

PaulE
Guest

Grich, McCovey, Sandberg

JamesS
Guest

Smoltz, Edgar, McCovey

robbs
Guest

Grich, Smoltz, Koufax

RobMer
Guest

I return to see Whitaker elected, which means:

Biggio gets a vote since he’s about to fall off
Koufax
Marichal

Hartvig
Guest

Looks like it might be shaping up to be another second baseman (this time in the form of Grich only) vs. pitching (Koufax with Smoltz coming on strong) race although others (Marichal) could still join the fun.

Also looks like we might have 4 or 5 also rans picking up an extra ballots eligibility.

Scary Tuna
Guest

Killbrew, Banks, Ford.

Aaron
Guest

Edgar, Koufax, Grich

Darien
Guest

Banks, Killebrew, and Ryno

Nick Pain
Guest

Grich, Smoltz, Murray

Mike L
Guest

As a Yankee fan and a Democrat, I say this one was a bridge too far. Way too far
https://twitter.com/davidortiz/status/451032513679749120/photo/1

Hartvig
Guest

Then you had better hope that the Yankees can win it all this year so Jeter can give him a Yankees jersey next year…

Me, I think he’d look better in Tiger grey & orange.

Jeff B
Guest

i thought all Yankee fans were Republicans because, their team is always old, rich and don’t care about the “lower class” teams.

Mike L
Guest

Common fallacy, Jeff B. in New York it’s possible to be a Democrat and a Yankee fan, all while showing your generosity by giving your household staff off on Opening Day.

Hub Kid
Guest

Grich, Marichal, Murray

J.R.
Guest

Koufax, Grich, Biggio

KalineCountry Ron
Guest

Koufax
Ernie
Whitey

Artie Z.
Guest

What to do now that there is no Sweet Lou?

Marichal, Murray, and … Banks, because his 6 consecutive year peak outdoes Koufax.

1955-1960: 47.3 WAR, 32.4 WAA
1961-1966: 46.6 WAR, 30.9 WAA

And that doesn’t include the negative from Koufax as a hitter (-2.4 WAR and WAA).

David Horwich
Guest

Marichal, Martinez, Sandberg

MikeD
Guest

Koufax
Ford
Biggio

Seems like it’s not just the BBWAA that can’t elect Biggio!

wx
Guest

Sandy Koufax, Juan Marichal, Ernie Banks

PP
Guest

Marichal, Banks, McCovey

Kirk
Guest

Smoltz, Ford and Killebrew

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