Circle of Greats: 1922 Part 2 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 61st round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round completes the addition of those players born in 1922.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1922 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — the bottom half by alphabetical order this round, while the upper half was brought on in the previous round. This round’s group of 1922-born players joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

As usual, the new group of 1922-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, June 22, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Friday, June 20.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1922 Round 2 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1922 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The 11 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The new group of 1922 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.  In total there were 20 players born in 1922 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement.  Ten of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Ralph Kiner to Gene Woodling).  The ten players further up in the alphabet were added in the previous round.

Holdovers:
Sandy Koufax (eligibility guaranteed for 15 rounds)
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Larry Doby (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1922, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Del Rice
Gene Woodling
Wes Westrum
Ralph Kiner
Sam Mele

Pitchers (born in 1922, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Hoyt Wilhelm
Bill Wight
Jim Wilson
Morrie Martin
Mel Parnell

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135 Comments on "Circle of Greats: 1922 Part 2 Balloting"

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Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

How lucky was Gene Woodling to get purchased by the Yankees from the PCL before the ’49 season. Five rings for Eugene.

And after the ’54 season was part of an 18-player trade with the Orioles. You don’t see those anymore.

Had to feel good, at the end of his career, to be a midseason acquisition for the ’62 Mets. Probably figured he was there to turn them around.

Doug
Editor

Woodling wasn’t the only Yankee to finish his career with Casey and the ’62 Mets, being joined by Bob Cerv who was acquired 11 days later (a third Yankee on that club, Marv Throneberry managed to hang on until a month into the ’63 season).

Woodling appeared for the ’61 Senators and Cerv for the ’61 Angels, so both had consecutive seasons playing for an expansion team in its inaugural year. Hal Woodeshick is the only other player who can say that.

oneblankspace
Guest

Some say M.E.Throneberry was born to be a Met.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

When Kiner retired:

714
534
511
493
394 Ted Williams
369 Ralph Kiner

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Vote:

Richie Ashburn
Kenny Lofton
Hoyt Wilhelm

Hartvig
Guest
I’m going to have to ruminate on our newcomers for a while before I decide what to do about them. Career wise, Kiner sort of reminds me of Albert Belle. He did serve in the military from ’43 to ’45 and did lead the league in home runs in his first season as a major leaguer at age 23. But he also hit only 2 home runs in 176 PA’s in the high minors before he was called up to the military in ’43 so it’s hard to imagine that he lost more than one season to military service. He’s… Read more »
koma
Guest

Sandy Koufax, Whitey Ford, Craig Biggio

BillH
Guest

Murray, McCovey, Ford

Francisco
Guest

Sandy Koufax, Ralph Kiner, Hoyt Wilhelm

Mike G.
Guest

Lofton, McCovey, Sandberg

Dr. Doom
Guest

Wow! The holdover stash is REALLY whittling down! I know this was inevitable, but it’s surprising. For example, I never thought Koufax was going to sniff my ballot, yet he’s sitting just one spot outside it (of course, he’s also tied with Ashburn and Biggio for that 4th spot, but whatever). Anyway, here’s my vote:

Ryne Sandberg
Kenny Lofton
Willie McCovey

(And a special congratulations to Mike G. above for also having a “correct” ballot!)

MJ
Guest

Kenny Lofton, Ryne Sandberg, Whitey Ford

Steven
Guest

Sandy Koufax, Willie McCovey, Whitey Ford.

donburgh
Guest

Craig Biggio, Kenny Lofton, Ralph “Seven consecutive National League home run titles” Kiner

JEV
Guest

Koufax, McCovey, Killebrew

PP
Guest

Tough choices: McCovey, Minoso, and I suppose I’m coming around to Lofton

Looks to me like Kiner in a full career would have ended up with 65 or so WAR, as many homers as Stretch in about the same number of plate appearances, though it’s tough to ignore all that black ink. I’m picking Stretch.

Hartvig
Guest

McCovey, Sandberg, Doby

ATarwerdi96
Guest

Hoyt Wilhelm, Willie McCovey, Ryne Sandberg

Andy
Guest

Koufax
Kiner
Ford

Yippeeyappee
Guest

Koufax
Kiner
Killebrew

oneblankspace
Guest

with a K K K in the baseball context, he struck out the side

Richard Chester
Guest

Kiner, Koufax, Ford

Andy
Guest

Koufax, Biggio, Ford

Luis Gomez
Guest

Minoso, Koufax, Kiner.

Voomo´s list in comment # 2 made me vote for Kiner.

latefortheparty
Guest

Ryne Sandberg
Kenny Lofton
Willie McCovey

Chris C
Guest

Biggio, Sandberg, Edgar. (Wait, Edgar got elected? Wooohooo!)

Biggio, Sandberg, McCovey.

PaulE
Guest

Kiner Sandberg McCovey

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

and for your cherry picking consideration…

Sandy Koufax’s 4 year peak: 36.5 WAR
Wilbur Wood’s 4 year peak: 35.4 WAR

Sandy outside of peak:
16.7 WAR

Wilbur outside of peak:
16.7

Hartvig
Guest

One difference however is that while Koufax put up those numbers in a remarkable-by-todays-standards 1193 innings, Wood did his in an eye-popping 1390+. And that does slightly dilute the impact that they had within the individual seasons when compared to Koufax.

Still, it is somewhat remarkable the difference in support that they’ve received, especially when Wood’s career was also cut short by an injury.

mosc
Guest

This assumes bullpens ready and willing to serve for both guys who were well above average. I don’t think that’s the case. Wood’s innings saved a lot of reliever use in an era when relievers were as a whole fairly average (not anymore). I’d vote for wood. I think I did? I don’t see calling Koufax “wood-like” as an insult. My support is not mutually exclusive.

David P
Guest

Voomo – I agree with the comments you’ve been making re: Koufax. Unfortunately, even in COG voting, things like name recognition and fame carry weight. And Koufax obviously has a lot more of those things than Wood or some of the other pitchers you mentioned in the last vote.

Artie Z
Guest
Doom and I had some back and forth on Koufax vs. Wood in the 1925 part 2 balloting. I’ll excerpt some of my own comments: “In quite possibly the only time this has been uttered in history (ed. note: Now Voomo has uttered this), Koufax looks a lot like Wilbur Wood. Well, except that he doesn’t. What do I mean?” (Insert Voomo’s comments about Koufax’s and Wood’s peak and career WAR numbers). “Except Wood ain’t Koufax. Koufax racked up 78 black ink points (12th all-time); Wood racked up 21 (still not bad at 91st all-time). Koufax won 3 pitching triple… Read more »
mosc
Guest

using FIP on a knuckleball pitcher should be a criminal offense.

RonG
Guest

Koufax
McCovey
Minoso

no statistician but
Guest

Mel Parnell—not forgotten now, but undervalued. He was unique: a Red Sox lefty who won big at Fenway Park and did worse on the road. He kept the ball low and forced a lot of ground balls. Lost time to WWII, I’d say, and never fully recovered from a HBP arm injury. His record against NY was 12-6 at Fenway, 4-10 at the Stadium. In 1953 he shut the Yankees out 4 times, twice in each park. Bill James ranked him 100th all time among pitchers in his 2001 Abstract.

Mo
Guest

koufax ashburn kiner

J.R.
Guest

Ford, Biggio, Killebrew

Doug
Guest
Tidbits time. – Del Rice’s career total of only 20 triples is the second lowest among all players with triples in 13 or more seasons. What player has the lowest total? – Gene Woodling is one of only eight outfielders with 4 qualifying seasons of 2.5 WAR and 120 OPS+ aged 34-37. Five of the others are named Cobb, Speaker, Ruth, Mays and Aaron. – Wes Wesrtum‘s career walk rate of better than one per 6 PA is second only to Gene Tenace among catchers with 1500 career PA. – Ralph Kiner started his career with 7 straight seasons leading… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest

I got Schmidt & Killebrew on my original guess but thought Sosa & McGwire were the other 2. Right time frame, wrong league.

Doug
Editor

Two out of four is pretty good.

Dr. Doom
Guest

A Mariner and an ex-Mariner round it out: Griffey and A-Rod. Thanks for the huge hint, Hartvig!

Dr. Doom
Guest
Also, Hartvig, McGwire isn’t a TOTALLY bad guess. Although he didn’t lead the NL in three consecutive years, he DID lead the majors three years in a row! He hit 65 to lead the NL in 1999, the famous 70 in 1998, and he hit 58 in 1997. However, in the middle of that season, he was traded across leagues from Oakland to St. Louis, so his name rarely shows up on leaderboards for that year (was 9th in the NL with 34; tied for 22nd in the NL with 24). So maybe you deserve a little more credit than… Read more »
Richard Chester
Guest

Here are some other pitchers who threw no-hitters in their last season, including a couple before 1914.
Mal Eason
Addie Joss
Tex Carleton
Ed Head
Bobo Holloman ( Of course his first season was also his last and he’s the one whom Morrie Martin opposed).

Doug
Guest

Right you are, Richard.

Holloman, of course, is the only pitcher to throw a no-hitter in his first career start and only career CG.

Head and Carleton had their final season no-hitters after not playing in the majors the year before. Head’s came in his first game of that season, and Carleton’s in his second.

I hope Johan Santana doesn’t join the list. He was about to join the Orioles when he tore his Achilles last week. Hoping he makes it back next year.

Doug
Guest

The answer to the question of fewest career triples among players with triples in 13 seasons is 18 for David Ortiz. Del Rice has the second lowest total of 20.

Ortiz had two triples last season so he may yet tie or surpass Rice.

Hartvig
Guest
Dagnabbit. After I posted about the home runs and was on another website it occurred to me that the answer might be Ernie Lombardi and after I was done I was going to check it out- which of course I completely forgot to do. Wasn’t too far off on my guess- Schnozz only had triples in 12 seasons and hit a total of 28 for his career but 9 of those came in a single season. And while I was checking that out it also occurred to me that Smokey Burgess might also have been a good guess and I… Read more »
opal611
Guest

For the 1922-Part 2 election, I’m voting for:
-Ryne Sandberg
-Craig Biggio
-Eddie Murray

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Lofton
-McCovey
-Killebrew
-Ashburn
-Koufax
-Ford
-Wilhelm

oneblankspace
Guest

B-R career saves leaders when Wilhelm retired (1972), including pre-official saves:

Wilhelm 227
Roy Face 193
Ron Perranoski 179
Lindy McDaniel 160
Stu Miller 154
Ted Abernathy 148
Don McMahon 147
Dick Radatz 122
Al Worthington 110

========================================
My 1922b vote:
Hoyt Wilhelm
Orestes Minoso
Craig Biggio

Gary Bateman
Guest

Ford, Minoso, Wilhelm

wx
Guest

Sandy Koufax, Richie Ashburn, Willie McCovey

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
Bill Johnson
Guest

Killebrew, Wilhelm, and Kiner

Scary Tuna
Guest

Killebrew, Wilhelm, and Kiner.

T-Bone
Guest

Sandberg
Wilhelm
Lofton

David Horwich
Guest
Ralph Kiner is already assured of continuing on to the next ballot, so perhaps this comes too late to make a difference, but anyway – As youall probably know, when the Pirates acquired Hank Greenberg prior to the 1947 season, they moved the left field fence at Forbes Field in some 30 feet. Greenberg hit 18 of his 25 home runs at home that season. The change in dimensions would seem to have benefited Kiner, too – here are his home/road HR totals for his full seasons with the Pirates from 1947 on: 1947: 28/23 1948: 31/9 1949: 29/25 1950:… Read more »
David Horwich
Guest

Biggio, Murray, Sandberg

Darien
Guest

Lofton, Sandberg, and Killebrew.

aweb
Guest

Lofton, Biggio, Killebrew

Bix
Guest

Kiner, Koufax, McCovey

Dr. Doom
Guest

This seemed like the most appropriate thread to post this, for those who haven’t heard:

RIP Tony Gwynn

You will be missed.

mosc
Guest

Chewing tobacco, horrible. Just horrible. We will surely miss his keen insight on hitting which endured long after his bat speed.

I remember when Strasburg was getting drafted they asked Gwynn what he thought and how simply having him stand in the batter’s box watching a pitcher’s stuff was far better than any scouting report.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
Really sad to hear this. And bizarre to think of someone who was perceived as so ‘clean’ did himself in with a filthy habit. I had the fortune of seeing Gwynn in his very first game as the Head Coach for San Diego State. This was in Tempe, versus ASU. Sat right behind the dugout, and was so very impressed with just the way he carried himself, the small ways that he interacted with his players and the umpires. Always one of my favorite baseball people. His son was on that team. I believe he was a freshman. Clearly had… Read more »
Artie Z.
Guest
Not that I’m a fan of chewing tobacco, but the CNN story (in the health section, not the sports section) on Gwynn states: “There is no scientifically established link between smokeless tobacco and salivary gland cancer, according to the American Council on Science and Health. Doctors don’t know what causes salivary gland cancer, but the Mayo Clinic lists old age and radiation as known risk factors.” Before I get jumped on for being an idiot, because OF COURSE smokeless tobacco causes cancer, it’s the link between smokeless tobacco and Gwynn’s particular type of cancer (salivary gland cancer). Even cancer.org states:… Read more »
Low T
Guest

Lofton, Sandberg, and McCovey

Mike HBC
Guest

Koufax, Ford, and barely Biggio- I might be moving into the Sandberg or McCovey camp.

Hartvig
Guest

Based on current voting, it’s not out of the question that one of those camps may have moved on before you get there.

Of course at this point there at least half a dozen or so guys still in contention and I’d be surprised if anyone wins this round going away.

Abbott
Guest

Murray, Biggio, McCovey

mosc
Guest

Koufax, Ford, Doby

Artie Z
Guest

Koufax, Murray, and … I have no idea. After deliberating and making comparisons, I’ll choose Ashburn.

The redemption round winners, and influx of the late 1910s talent, can’t get here soon enough. If Koufax (possible) or Murray (unlikely) wins, my ballot next round will very likely be: Murray (or, in the unlikely event Murray wins, Koufax), Spahn, and redemption round winner even if it is someone I didn’t vote for.

Dr. Remulak
Guest

Biggio, Koufax, Ford.

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