Circle of Greats: 1917 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 67th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1917. Rules and lists are after the jump.

This round’s new group of 1917-born players joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

The new group of 1917-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Friday, August 15, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Wednesday, August 13.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1917 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1917 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1917 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:

Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Bob Feller ((eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Pee Wee Reese (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for  this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1917, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Lou Boudreau
Clyde McCullough
Hank Sauer
Sid Gordon
Peanuts Lowrey
Marty Marion
Phil Rizzuto
Johnny Berardino
Jimmy Bloodworth
Dom DiMaggio
Tommy Holmes
Barney McCosky
Mike McCormick
Pat Mullin

Pitchers (born in 1917, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Virgil Trucks
Ken Raffensberger
Joe Dobson
Joe Haynes
Allie Reynolds
Jim Konstanty
Johnny Sain
Sal Maglie
Ray Scarborough

Leave a Reply

196 Comments on "Circle of Greats: 1917 Balloting"

Notify of
avatar
Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
Jeff Harris
Guest

Lofton Feller Killebrew

mosc
Guest
A guy who last swung at a major league pitch September 29, 2007 and one who threw a pitch July 19, 1936. More than 70 years of baseball covered between them. Only 34 years and change between them facing each other though, amazingly. Killebrew fits nearly perfectly in between as probably the best choice for coverage. His career also started very young in 1954, overlapping with Feller though they never faced off and ran till September 26, 1975. I guess you could have picked Virgil Trucks over Feller for the added feat that he faced Killebrew in 1955 but he… Read more »
Mike HBC
Guest

Feller, Reese, Sandberg

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals: Brown 43.3 Boudreau 42.3 Feller 39.4 Lofton 39.3 Sandberg 38.8 Alomar 37.1 Biggio 36.3 Eckersley 34.3 Murray 33.7 Reese 33.4 Killebrew 33.0 Minoso 30.6 Ford 29.3 Trucks 23.8 Rirruto 22.3 Campanella 19.2 Maglie 18.7 My quandary in this round is whether three years at war cost Pee Wee Reese the 8.9 WAA by which he trails Boudreau. He was worth 3.5 WAA in ’42 and ’46, so there’s an easy case to be made that he could have added 10+ in his prime. Boudreau, though, accumulated more WAA in far fewer plate… Read more »
mosc
Guest
The league level of competition in ’43 and ’44 was particularly poor. Boudreau feasted on some pretty poor pitching putting up unusually high RBAT. Since he was a strong defender at a premium position, that RBAT difference went strait to his WAA. Boudreau outside of a career year in 1948 was never a legendary hitter. Well above average, which is a lot for a good glove shortstop, but not historic by any means. For his career, Boudreau had 13.7 RBAT per 500 PA, ’43 and ’44 together he was at 22.9 RBAT per 500 PA. Again, outside of his ’48… Read more »
David P
Guest
Boudreau was also player-manager of the Indians for 9 seasons. He’s the last player manager to win a World Series. And he’s the last manager of the Indians to win a WS. Boudreau is also credited with creating the shift, which he employed against Ted Williams. Williams lowest career OPS is against the Indians though I don’t feel like backing out just the years Boudreau was the Indian’s manager. Anyway, it’s at least possible that pulling double duty negatively affected Boudreau’s playing ability. Also, while he was probably helped by playing during the war years, 1943-44 were also his age… Read more »
David Horwich
Guest

DP @ 31 –

It’s my understanding that Boudreau didn’t invent, but rather revived, the shift, which had been used against Cy Williams in the 1920s.

David P
Guest

Okay thanks for the clarification David H. 🙂

David Horwich
Guest

Boudreau’s shift was evidently extreme – all 4 infielders on the right side of the diamond, per the diagram in this article:

http://joeposnanski.com/joeblogs/the-boudreau-shift/

I don’t think anyone does it quite that way today.

bstar
Guest
Davids H & P: here’s some factoids about the shift, in the reference section of Lou Boudreau’s SABR bio: “Though the Williams shift was a success, its origins are unclear. In Great Baseball Feats, Facts and Firsts, David Nemec says it was used against another player named Williams, Ken Williams of the St. Louis Browns. Rob Neyer argues that the shift was used some years earlier, against Cy Williams of the Phillies. And finally, Glenn Stout, editor of Great American Sportswriting, says that Jimmie Dykes, manager of the Chicago White Sox in 1941, was the first to use a shift… Read more »
Richard Chester
Guest

Boudreau’s stats in 1948 made him the only SS to have a season with .350+ BA, 100+ RBI and fewer than 10 strikeouts. His totals were .355 BA, 106 RBI and 9 K.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor

Great argument, mosc. It doesn’t seem fair to take away Boudreau’s prime years, but the war did just that to Reese. Certainly worth a closer look.

mosc
Guest
I like the concept of using cumulative WAA excluding negatives for all time greats I just think it struggles when the context changes (war, integration, steroids, etc). I also don’t like the way it handles longevity. Comparing two players with similar PA’s in similar years I love it but comparing a guy with a really short career and a really long career? I don’t think it’s fully capturing the picture. I guess if I had my own method of such it would be to weight WAR per year as an increasingly valuable thing. You get some credit for all your… Read more »
PaulE
Guest

FWIW:

Highest Career dWar with Career oWar Greater than 50:

34.6 Ripken
28.7 Fudge Rodriguez
25.6 Reese
25.5 Gary Carter
23.3 Boudreau

I dunno….I just think Boudreau would have done OK without the assist from Fascism during the period in question. Hall of Fame? meh… Circle of Greats? i don’t think so

Dr. Doom
Guest
My initial thought was that I should model something more systematically than just say, “Well, those were the War years…” but I was too lazy to do it. Today has been a slow day at work, so I took a little time. If you use WAA instead of WAR for the WWII years (1943-1946, depending on how you feel the quality of play was in the last of those years, when the war wasn’t going on, but there is some reason to believe that quality of play may not have been at its best), and he’s a 54 WAR guy… Read more »
Steve
Guest

You cannot exclude negative seasonal totals – kinda like saying well if we count strikeouts as hits..

RJ
Guest
It seems like you made a similar point before. Here’s Bryan’s response in case you missed it: “I use WAA instead of WAR because a measure of greatness should reflect how much more value a player provided than the average player (or some higher standard, if it were easily accessible), rather than a readily available scrub. Excluding negative seasonal totals saves a guy like Pete Rose or Craig Biggio from being punished for hanging on too long. Was Rose a less-great player because he had a few bad years at the end? I got the idea from Adam’s Hall of… Read more »
bstar
Guest
I don’t think this always works, though, RJ. Doug uncovered the case of Early Wynn a few weeks back. Wynn’s entire career is pockmarked with seasons of negative WAA, including what are supposed to be his prime years: age 19: -0.4 WAA age 22: -2.6 WAA age 24: -0.3 WAA age 28: -2.5 WAA age 29: -0.7 WAA age 33: -1.0 WAA —— age 37: -0.9 WAA age 38: -1.2 WAA age 42: -1.0 WAA Ignoring all those seasons paints a rosier picture of Wynn than actual reality. Sure, Wynn had some good/great years, but he also had several years… Read more »
Ajnrules
Guest

Bob Feller
Craig Biggio
Lou Boudreau

Steven
Guest

Bob Feller, Allie Reynolds, and Marty Marion.

Chris C
Guest

Feller, Biggio, Eckersley

RJ
Guest
The class of 1917 are an impressive lot. Among our newcomers there are 19 All-Stars (including all of our pitchers), combining for 53 All-Star Game appearances. Sixteen of them reached the Series, with nine players winning it all for a combined 26 titles. Five won MVP awards, including the pair of Hall of Famers in the bunch. Of the four pitchers ever to have thrown two no-hitters in the same season, two appear here. The other newcomer with a no-hitter threw his at the age of 39. Nine players reached the 30 WAR level, with another 4 above 25 WAR… Read more »
David P
Guest

Looks like we were typing at the same time RJ. Odd that there’s not more career value among this group.

RJ
Guest

The war obviously played a part. As you note, there’s no inner-circle type candidate on the ballot, but I was impressed with the number of guys who had solid careers, if not HOF or COG ones.

David P
Guest

Oh I agree RJ. As I mentioned in my #8, there are 5 MVPs and 4 guys who finished 2nd. That strikes me as quite a lot.

David P
Guest

Even though the new candidate are fairly lackluster, there are actually five former MVPs – Boudreau, Sauer, Rizzuto, Marion and Konstanty. Plus four more who have a second place finish – Sain, Maglie, Reynolds, and Holmes.

paget
Guest

Reese should have two rounds of eligibility, no?

Insert Name Here
Guest
Interestingly, it’s an all-Indians ballot for me this time around: 1. Lou Boudreau (7.1 WAR/162 during 1940-48) 2. Bob Feller (7.1 WAR/season during 7-yr peak of 1938-47) 3. Kenny Lofton (6.8 WAR/162 during 1992-99) Ranking of other candidates: 4. Ryne Sandberg (6.2 WAR/162 during 1984-92) 5. Pee Wee Reese (5.8 WAR/162 during 11-yr peak of 1942-55) 6. Craig Biggio (5.8 WAR/162 during 1991-99) 7. Kevin Brown (5.7 WAR/season during 1992-2000) 8. Ralph Kiner (7.1 WAR/162 during 1947-52) 9. Harmon Killebrew (5.3 WAR/162 during 1959-70) 10. Minnie Miñoso (5.7 WAR/162 during 1951-59) 11. Eddie Murray (5.7 WAR/162 during 1978-86) 12. Roy… Read more »
Insert Name Here
Guest

Oops! As one may have guessed, I copy-and-paste my ranking of holdovers from the previous round and insert the worthy newcomers (in this round, Boudreau and Gordon). I forgot to omit Kiner, so… ignore him in the ranking.

paget
Guest

@12, I like Boudreau as a candidate too (especially for that epic ’48 season), but I’m not sure it makes sense to list his peak years without taking into account the decreased level of competition in ’43’-’45. Two of his three biggest years fall during that period.

Insert Name Here
Guest

Hmmm… interesting point. I did notice in comparing players that Boudreaux is one of the few prominent players who didn’t serve in WWII. Omit those years (which also seems unfair) and he’s still one of the best on the ballot, but not necessarily vote- worthy… I’ll have to mull this one over.

Michael Sullivan
Guest

I don’t think you can omit them, but it’s hard to give credit for more WAR/WAA than what he got in a typical prime year, as opposed to the 7.9 WAR that he only met or exceeded for 2 years in a non-depleted league.

I take off about 2 WAR and WAA each for those 3 years, and that leaves him clearly below the line for me. A solid peak, but not enough total contribution to get in without a koufax level peak, especially since most of his career is pre-integration.

robbs
Guest

Slightly off topic but Boudreau was also Denny McClain’s father-in-law (via daughter Sharon).

Insert Name Here
Guest
@Michael Sullivan, knocking off 2 WAR for each of those 3 seasons seems like a good (if unscientific, as any such method would be) way to compare Boudreau with the others. However, it’s interesting to note that Boudreau actually did a little bit better during 1946-48 (8.1 WAR/162) than against the lower-quality competition of 1943-45 (7.9 WAR/162). Still, if I drop that latter number to 5.9 WAR/162 (in accordance with your “-2 WAR-during-war” principle), then Boudreau’s overall peak averages out to 6.5 WAR/162 over 9 years. Considering that Ryne Sandberg (ranked 4th on my list) is at 6.2 WAR/162 over… Read more »
mo
Guest

Feller Lofton Biggio

Dr. Doom
Guest

My ballot:

Bob Feller
Pee Wee Reese
Lou Boudreau

KalineCountry Ron
Guest

Bob Feller
Roy Campanella
Virgil ‘Fire’ Trucks

Low T
Guest

Lofton, Feller, Reese please

aweb
Guest
I used to get Rizzuto and Reese mixed up in my head in terms of who was better – I had them both mentally as the “light hitting SS on good NY teams”, but Rizzuto was better than I thought, and Reese was much better than I thought. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard Sid Gordon talked about, despite some impressive looking stats for a good stretch in an era when seemingly every NY-based player was made legendary for some reason or another. Anyone know why Marty Marion won the MVP in 1944? He had a certain COG teammate who… Read more »
Richard Chester
Guest

Marion’s .267 BA in 1944 was the lowest for a position MVP. He was a great fielder, his nickname was Mr. Shortstop.

paget
Guest
I always vote late in this process so I’m going to hold off on weighing in, but I’ve been beating the drum for Sal Maglie for a while now, and am curious to hear some opinions about his viability as a candidate. Without going into too much detail right now, it seems to me that a guy who puts up his kind of numbers after essentially beginning his MLB career at the age of 33 is someone to at least take seriously. Plus, his career arc is just so improbable that he’s fun to think about. I’ve always liked guys… Read more »
Lawrence Azrin
Guest

@29/paget;

I too am fascinated with players with strange career arcs.

For instance – the two Williams OFers in the 1920s, Ken and Cy Williams. Both might’ve had HOF-worthy careers if they were born a decade later, and debuted in their early 20’s in the live-ball era, instead of age 30+. Ken was 31 when he has his first outstanding season, Cy was 32.

It would be interesting to combine their after-30 years with the before-30 career of someone who faded early. For instance: Ross Youngs through age-29, then Cy Williams from age-30 on.

Lawrence Azrin
Guest

@54;

Carlos Baerga has his last good year at age 26, and was done as a regular at age 29… That may have been the most stunning early fade in recent memory.

By age 25-26, he looked like a possible HOFER, but by age 30 he spends most of the year in the minors, and age 31 he is out of organized baseball altogether – HUH? He did come back at ages 33-36 as a tolerable utility guy, but has there _ever_ been anyone else with that career arc?

David Horwich
Guest

He wasn’t as good a player as Baerga, but Ben Grieve had some serviceable years in his early 20s, then fell off a cliff and was done before he hit 30.

Then there are players whose careers ended early due to illness and death, e.g. Addie Joss and Ross Youngs, but I don’t think that’s really what you have in mind.

Lawrence Azrin
Guest

@59/DH;

Not a bad comp, but Baerga not only went back to the minors, was completely out of baseball after 30, but then came back to MLB from ages 33-36.

There might have been players who went to Japan for a year or two, then came back to MLB for a while.

David Horwich
Guest

Returning to the majors in a player’s mid-30s after an early fade is indeed unusual.

Bobby Tolan comes to mind as another early fader (who made no comeback).

Abbott
Guest

Boudreau, Murray, Biggio

Doug
Guest
This year’s tidbits. – Virgil Trucks was acquired by the Yankees from the Athletics during the 1958 season (as was another over-40 pitcher, Murry Dickson). Usually known for discarding players at the first sign of infirmity, this time New York strangely departed from form to obtain Trucks in exchange for 28 year-old Bob Grim. But, Casey knew his ballplayers; despite coming off two solid seasons of 139 ERA+, Grim would fare no better than 97 ERA+ in limited innings the rest of his career. – Hank Sauer’s 178 PA before his age 30 season are the fewest of any player… Read more »
David Horwich
Guest

The answer to the Allie Reynolds question (leading AL in K and ERA at age 35+) is Walter Johnson and Roger Clemens. Randy Johnson did it 3 times in the NL.

Richard Chester
Guest
Additional tidbits: Clyde McCullough played 15 seasons and never had as many as 100 hits in a season. That made him one of 17 retired players with 15+ seasons without ever getting as many as 100 hits. Two active players are on pace to join that list if this is their last season. Who are they? Hank Sauer hit 281, or 97.6%, of his 288 HR after his age 30 season. That’s a record. Sid Gordon is one of 7 live-ball era players to have a season with more triples than doubles, 502 PA minimum. In 1943 he had 11… Read more »
Richard Chester
Guest
I have some confessing to do. McCosky did not have a .300+ BA after each AB. A PBP of a box score of his first game contradicts a statement that McCosky himself made about getting a hit in his first AB, (that was reported in his SABR BioProject bio). McCosky grounded out in his first AB. I posted this info last March but forgot about it. I know of 2 batters who always had a .300+ BA, Jimmie Foxx and Earle Combs. Other possibilities are (2000 PA min.) Joe DiMaggio, Riggs Stephenson and Dale Alexander (who is a partial answer… Read more »
Richard Chester
Guest

Answer to the Tommy Holmes question:
Rogers Hornsby (1922) and Joe Medwick (1937).

Dr. Doom
Guest

Tommy Holmes question:

Rogers Hornsby ’22
Chuck Klein ’33
Joe Medwick ’37

That was all I could find.

Dr. Doom
Guest

Richard, I guess I should have refreshed before I posted my answer to the Holmes question. At least one of the three I posted was useful!

Jim Konstanty question:
Hoyt Wilhelm, in his rookie year (1952)
Mike Marshall doesn’t TECHNICALLY count, but the 141 in 208 innings (!!!) of relief deserves some credit.
Dick Radatz in 1964, as well.

That’s all I could find. I’ll let Richard come in and clean up my mess later. 🙂

David Horwich
Guest

Mark Eichhorn, 1986, one of the great unsung seasons of all time: a 246 ERA+ in 157 IP. 7.4 WAR coming out the bullpen!

Wilbur Wood came close in 1968, with a 171 ERA+ in 159 IP – but 14 of those innings were as a starter.

bstar
Guest

Bob Stanley also came close in 1982 for the Red Sox, with a 140 ERA+ in 168 relief innings. That ERA+ qualified for the league lead in the AL that year.

bstar
Guest

It looks like Stanley ’82 and Wilhelm ’52 are the only two primary relievers (80% of games in relief) to qualify and win a league ERA+ title. Wilhelm and Sammy Stewart (112 IP in strike-shortened ’81 for Baltimore) are the only two relievers to get black ink in raw ERA.

There are only 20 seasons of relievers getting enough innings to qualify for an ERA title. If we raise the bar to 90% of games in relief, there are only 10 seasons. Mike Marshall is the only pitcher with two such seasons.

Richard Chester
Guest

Ray Scarborough question: Bobo Newsom is one of the four.
1937 13 wins for the Red Sox
1938 20 wins for the Browns
1939 17 wins for the Tigers

Richard Chester
Guest

Scarborough question: Burleigh Grimes and Bump Hadley are two more.

RJ
Guest

Lefty Grove is one of the four pitchers to post 13 wins and a winning record in 5 consecutive seasons with the Red Sox.

RJ
Guest

And of course Clemens. This question is making me realise that I can’t name a Red Sox pitcher who pitched between the two I’ve listed though…

bells
Guest

My first thought is Tiant…

indeed, 1972-76.

Richard Chester
Guest

Answer to the Jimmy Bloodworth question:

Billy Hitchcock hit into 30 double-plays in 1950 and no more than 10 in any other year.

Richard Chester
Guest

Doug: For the Berardino question do you mean exactly two seasons or do you mean two or more seasons? Also do the games at both 2B and SS have to be with the same team?

Doug
Guest

It’s two or more seasons at each position with the same team.

Richard Chester
Guest

Rogers Hornsby is one.

Richard Chester
Guest

For the Mike McCormick question I found three other names, Joe DiMaggio, Larry Doby and Pepper Martin.

Richard Chester
Guest

Looks like interest in the quizzes has died out so I’ll give a couple of missing answers.

Barney McCosky question: Dale Mitchell, Dale Alexander, Rip Radcliff and Johny Frederick

Hank Sauer question: Mel Ott

Doug
Guest
Here are my answers to the quiz questions. – Hank Sauer question: Most PA before age 30 for players with 5000 PA aged 30+ – Robin Yount – Joe Dobson question: 5 consecutive seasons for the Red Sox with 13+ wins and a winning record – Lefty Grove, Frank Sullivan, Roger Clemens (plus Luis Tiant – thanks Bells!) – Allie Reynods question: Leading AL in ERA and Strikeouts aged 35+ – Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens – Marty Marion question: AL shortstops with career Runs less than 10% of 5000+ PA – Bucky Dent, Ed Brinkman – Jim Konstanty question: Relievers… Read more »
BillH
Guest

Murray, Alomar, Ford

Bix
Guest

Lofton, Eckersley, Killebrew

bells
Guest
Here’s the vote according to my methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ – adding the wins above average players (rather than replacement) for… Read more »
mosc
Guest
I’m going to make the argument with Feller that he threw his arm off before reaching 3800 innings and because of that, we may want to look at his wartime differently. I’m not sure he would have reached much more than 3800 innings if he hadn’t gone to war. He’s almost helped, in a strange way, from taking the time off. Then I’m going to make the case that if you look at the 4 seasons he DID play completely (’39,’40,’41,’46) totaling 37.2 WAR and say he should get in on PEAK, not just on career with the expectation of… Read more »
David P
Guest

Mosc – Feller didn’t throw his arm off. He fell off the mound during a rainy game in 1948, hurting his back and knee. That in turn affected his fastball. His Ks per game immediately dropped from 7 per game before the injury to 5 per game after (and eventually lower than that).

Lawrence Azrin
Guest

Feller actually pitched quite a bit in service baseball during WWII, so it’s not as if he gave his arm a complete rest during 1942-45. Your point is well-taken, though; he very well may have been done in his early 30s without the break.

David P
Guest

And after throwing 371 innings in 1946, Feller immediately went on a 20 game barnstorming tour with Satchel Paige. No idea how many of the 20 games Feller pitched in.

JasonZ
Guest

According to Stanley Rothman in Sandlot, Feller
pitched at least 2 innings in 26 games on this
tour.

I don’t know why this cites 26 games and
other sources cite 20 games.

JasonZ
Guest

Correction, “sandlot stats”

David P
Guest

Jason Z – No idea. I found a book called Satchel Paige and Company that says 32 games in 26 days. So it was either 20 games, or 26, or 32. Or maybe something else entirely??? 🙂

JasonZ
Guest
One thing we can be sure of, these barnstorming tours were for financial reasons. It was a common occurrence that the players on these tours made more money than the shares of World Series winners. According to Thomas Barthel, in Baseball Barnstorming and Exhibition Games, 1901-1962; True barnstorming ended in 1962 when Willie Mays led an attempt that failed. Before that Barnstorming was a way for players to supplement their income. No doubt, this was their primary motivation. And if the motivation is money and higher ticket sales, we can assume that Satchel Paige and Bob Feller probably threw at… Read more »
latefortheparty
Guest

Kevin Brown
Ryne Sandberg
Bob Feller

latefortheparty
Guest

This will be my first amended ballot.

Kevin Brown
Ryne Sandberg
Lou Boudreau

jeff hill
Guest

Lofton, Feller, Ford

jeff hill
Guest

Boudreau…not Ford.

koma
Guest

Whitey Ford, Craig Biggio, Dennis Eckersley

Gary Bateman
Guest

Feller, Alomar, Minoso

Hartvig
Guest

Sandberg, Campanella, Minoso

Darien
Guest

Feller, Lofton, and Ryno

Mike G.
Guest

Brown, Eckersley, Sandberg

dr. remulak
Guest

Biggio, Ford, Feller.

mosc
Guest

Feller, Campanella, Reese

Brendan Bingham
Guest
When we talk about peak years lost to WWII, we have to talk about Dom DiMaggio. The Little Professor’s best years bracketed his three years lost to military service. In 1942, his age 25 season, he earned 5.1 WAR and 3.3 WAA. In 1946, he had 4.4 WAR and 2.5 WAA. As it was, he was a multi-time All-Star who accumulated 31.9 WAR in a career that lasted from 1940 to 1953. This is in no way an argument for COG votes for the Boston centerfielder; yet, it seems reasonable to imagine that he might have lost 15 WAR, or… Read more »
JasonZ
Guest
Dom DiMaggio. A few thoughts. If you haven’t yet read David Halberstam’s Summer of 49, I feel sorry for you. Read it. In it the author describes DiMaggio as the most underrated player of his day. Soak up those words. I will admit that the modern defensive metrics are completely lost upon me. I prefer my eyeballs. But here is one stat that does stick out. Dom DiMaggio remains the all-time career leader at 2.98 chances per game for an outfielder(please be correct Wikipedia). If true, I like that stat! If there was a COG for ballplayers who achieved the… Read more »
PP
Guest

Speaking of the war years, Boudreau was 4-F due to arthritic ankles yet between ’41 and ’45 he managed to go to the plate 3017 times, lead the league in doubles twice and play 691 games at shortstop. I don’t know what to think of it, but it makes his 63 WAR seem less than more.

Lawrence Azrin
Guest
@91/JasonZ; There’s a rumor that when Ted Williams was on the Veterans Committee in the 1980s, he pushed hard for Dom DiMaggio (and Johnny Pesky) for the HOF. Those two (DiMaggio and Pesky) may have been the two non-HOF players whose candidacy was hurt most by WWWII; neither of their careers was that long to start with, even giving them the WWII years back. Take out three prime years, and it really really hurts their case. DiMaggio probably could’ve played at least another couple years, but when Lou Boudreau benched him at the start of the 1953 season, he quit… Read more »
JasonZ
Guest
I have heard those stories also Lawrence. I just spent the last half hour reading South Florida Sun Sentinel archives about HOF elections and especially the Veterans Committee results throughout the years. Let’s just say that Ted Williams was hardly the only one doing some hardcore lobbying. The system is probably irrevocably broken. The following from the February 27, 1990 South Florida Sun Sentinel sums it up… “There`s no question cronyism comes into play,“ said Herb Goren, a longtime baseball writer for the defunct New York Sun who is waging a campaign to get former Yankees shortstop Phil Rizzuto into… Read more »
paget
Guest

Let’s not forget Vince either! Not the greatest ballplayer in the world, but a guy who strung together a couple of productive years (1941 in particular. A good year to be a DiMaggio), and had the reputation of being almost as good out there in centerfield as his brothers.

DiMaggio (1941):
499 Hits/1653AB
.302BA
59 HR
283 RBI
312 Runs
107 2B

15.8 WAR

paget
Guest

Is 1941 for the DiMaggio the best year ever for relations playing at the same time? My first thought was that the Alou might be competitive there, but Jesus didn’t really pull his end in, say ’66 or ’68 when they could have outdistanced the DiMaggio clan.

Brendan Bingham
Guest

The Alous couldn’t seem to all thrive in the same year. Each year from ’65 to ’68, two brothers did well (relatively speaking in Jesus’ case) and one did poorly (Jesus in ’66 and ’68, Matty in ’65, and Felipe in ’67). Jesus had his best stretch from ’70 to ’72, by which time his older brothers had already begun their decline.

Lawrence Azrin
Guest

@108/birtelcom;

.. and Ringo Starr could’ve told him to “Back off,Boog Alou!” 🙂

JasonZ
Guest
It all depends on the perspective. In 1966 Jesus Alou contributed -1.8WAR. Ugh!! Brother Matty however copped himself some black ink, B-ref style by batting .342. Brother Felipe had a plethora of black ink that season, AB’s, hits, runs and total bases! 1966 was arguably Felipe’s greatest season for one more reason, son Moises was born on 7/3/66. Son/nephew/nephew Moises would go on to prove that the DNA apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. But the year isn’t over yet. On 12/10/66 nephew/nephew/nephew/cousin, Mel Rojas was born. Proving again that the DNA apple is strong in some families. Think… Read more »
Hub Kid
Guest

Pee Wee Reese, Minnie Minoso and Dom DiMaggio. As for DiMaggio, I love the ‘DiMaggio who had a good career with the Red Sox’ angle. I stick to my philosophy of using up one of my votes for a tribute vote (‘shout out’) Nothing against Feller, but I’m starting to really like Reese following HHS discussions about him.

Bill Johnson
Guest

Killebrew, Feller, and Boudreau

Andy
Guest

Bob Feller, Kevin Brown, Craig Biggio

PaulE
Guest

Feller Reese Sandberg

T-Bone
Guest

Sandberg
Feller
Reese

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

1950. JIm Konstanty

MVP at the Closer position.
74 games zero starts.

Starts Game 1 of the World Series.
8 innings. One run.
Beaten by a Vic Raschi 2 hitter.

He did have relief outings that year of 9 and 10 innings.
The 10 inning one, he pitched innings 9 -18, and did not get a decision.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI195009152.shtml

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Allie Reynolds appeared in 15 WS games.
9 starts and 5 games finished.

He had both shutouts and gamed finished in every season his career.

He is one of four players to have at least
7 shutouts and
7 saves in a season

1909 Three-Finger
1917 Jim Bagby
1934 Dizzy Dean
1951 Allie Reynolds

David Horwich
Guest

Tally note:

The ballot @ 30 was Boudreau, Murray, Biggio but was tallied as Boudreau, Murray, Killebrew.

David Horwich
Guest

Alomar, Campanella, Murray

PP
Guest

Feller, Sandberg, Killebrew

Francisco
Guest

Bob Feller, Pee Wee Reese, Kevin Brown

Richard Chester
Guest

Feller, Ford, Murray

David P
Guest

Boudreau, Alomar, Murray

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Can you imagine a 24 year old being named player/manager today?

“He was the greatest shortstop I ever saw. He was afraid of nobody. He was a great manager, teammate and friend. Just a great man. There is not a more gracious man than Lou Boudreau.” – Bob Feller

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

One way of looking at it…
Who was way above average, AND sustained it?

PA per WAA

100.8 … (1995) Mike Trout
104.0 … (9788) Ted Williams

127.7 … (11748)Honus Wagner
166.4 … (7304) Lou Boudreau

241.8 … (9235) Lofton
243.6 … (9282) Ryno

287.8 … (7712) Minoso
298.7 … (9470) Pee Wee Reese

306.7 … (4815) Campanella
322.0 … (10400)Alomar

323.0 … (6719) Rizutto (but the best Homer announcer of all time)
350.0 … (9833) Killer

435.7 … (12504)Biggio
472.9 … (6478) Dom DiMaggio
474.8 … (12817)Steady Eddie
____________________________

IP per WAA:

80.3 …. (3256) Kevin Brown
107.4 … (3286) Dennis Eckersley
109.3 … (3170) Whitey Ford
112.2 … (3827) Bob Feller
126.6 … (2682) Virgil Trucks
356.1 … (2492) Allie Reynolds

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

So, with the above stat, Boudreau is way, way ahead of everyone else on the ballot. Yes, he had a shorter career, which helps his rate stats.

So, same stat (PA/WAA), through the season in which each player passed 7300 PA:

95.3 …. Ted Williams
166.4 … Boudreau
207.7 … Lofton
209.9 … Sandberg
218.1 … Biggio
245.5 … Pee Wee
246.7 … Minoso
250.5 … Eddie Murray
255.3 … Killer
262.4 … Alomar

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Vote:

Lou Boudreau
Kevin Brown
Phil Rizzuto
_________________

Feller seems well on his way to winning.
Plenty of merit there, and a war hero and all…
…But are we being seduced by all that black ink?

J.R.
Guest

Feller, Biggio, Killebrew

wpDiscuz