Circle of Greats: 1909 Balloting

Happy Thanksgiving! This post is for voting and discussion in the 78th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1909. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1909-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1909-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Friday, December 5, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Wednesday, December 3.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1909 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1909 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1909 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 7 rounds)
Lou Boudreau (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dizzy Dean (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Joe Medwick  (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1909, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Mel Ott
Stan Hack
Billy Herman
Pinky Higgins
Eric McNair
Gene Moore
Bruce Campbell
Pete Fox
Skeeter Webb

Pitchers (born in 1909, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Mel Harder
Dutch Leonard
Bucky Walters
Harry Gumbert
Lon Warneke
Bill Lee
Claude Passeau
Mace Brown

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T-Bone
T-Bone
9 years ago

Reuschel, Ott, Herman

Darien
9 years ago

Ott, Killebrew, and Dean

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Ott, Medwick and Dean.

koma
koma
9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew
Dennis Eckersley
Mel Ott

David P
David P
9 years ago

Easiest vote in a while: Ott, Tiant, Murray.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Mel Ott
Kevin Brown
Lou Boudreau

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

Mo
Mo
9 years ago

Ott, Reuschel, Kevin Brown

Mike
Mike
9 years ago

Ott
Dean
Campanella

Mike
Mike
9 years ago

Oh, and the headline:

VOTERS DECIDE MEL “OTT” TO BE INDUCTED!!!

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Very nice.

birtelcom will do well to top that one.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike

@9;

This is when I wish that we had a “LIKE” button…

Ott is the best player so far born in the ‘oughts’. Thanks, I’ll be here all week.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

but did Ott ever play for OTT (Ottawa) ?

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

@139,

No, but he ‘ought’ to have… GROAN, BOO – OK, I’ll leave…

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike

Prepare your yawn before reading…

1909 results: That unmistakable ‘Mel’ of greatness.

billh
billh
9 years ago

Winfield, Murray, Ott

with apologies to Alomar

Artie Z
Artie Z
9 years ago

Murray and Kevin Brown, and of course Mel Ott (was going to vote for Alomar but when did he build up 4 rounds of eligibility?)

bells
bells
9 years ago

Obvious Ott election is obvious, but there is an interesting undercard on here… not quite interesting enough to disrupt things, though, a few low-50 WAR guys that, in my esteem, are every bit as good as Medwick and better than Dean, but also by my esteem that’s not enough to vote for them. Anyway, I’m not gonna copy/paste the long explanation of my methodology here (I’ve been meaning to rewrite it, getting a bit stale), but in short, I give guys a cumulative rank relative to the rest of the ballot on an aggregate of 4 advanced measures: WAR, WAA+,… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

Herman missed two seasons to the war or else he’d likely be over 60 WAR. He has 54.7 career WAR, and had 4.7 the year before and 3.7 the year after the war.

Isn’t he at last he equivalent of Killebrew? Yet I’d be surprised of he makes it past this round.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Good point, David. After that 3.7 WAR season, Herman got packaged with some prospects in the trade that landed Bob Elliott in Boston. Yet, after trading away their top player to get him, the Pirates scarcely used Herman, giving him all of 15 games, the last of his career. Despite his HOF status, 10 straight A-S selections, and 5 top 10 MVP finishes, Herman remains mostly anonymous (even at B-R and SABR, where his biogrpahy is conspicuous by its absence). His namesake Babe Herman was a good player, but at least a notch or two below Billy, yet is arguably… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug – Herman was actually the manager of that Pirates team. So for whatever reason he decided to rarely use himself. No idea why, since he was coming off a solid season. And the Pirates certainly could have used the help.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Good catch, David. And I should have remembered that, because it was one of my quiz questions (a team trading to acquire its next manager) several rounds back. Talk about a trade back-firing. Herman lasted only that one season as the Buc manager while Elliott has an MVP season for the Braves. And, I’m going to revise my assessment of the Hermans. Babe was some hitter – his 141 career OPS+ makes the top 50 in 5000 PA careers since 1901 (top 60 all-time). Babe’s Rbat was more than double Billy’s in almost identical PAs. Add in Rfield, and Babe’s… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

@35/Doug;

Babe Herman was a legendarily bad fielding OFer in his time; you can find many contemporary references to that. Since Rfield is more regressed the further back you go back in the past, I don’t think that his career Rfield of -31 accurately reflects how below-average he was as a fielder.

Greg Luzinski, who had a similar reputation as Herman for defensive ineptitude, rates a -90 Rfield in a few hundred more games.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Thanks for the insight, LA.

Of course, Billy’s Rfield will reflect the same regression to the mean tendency so one would suppose that, as Babe’s negative score is probably understated, so too is Billy’s positive result. Billy’s 10 straight A-S nods would tend to indicate his defense was as well regarded as Babe’s was derided. If the factor is as large (x 3) as you have surmised anecdotally, that would more than erase Billy’s Rbat deficit. At least they are contemporaries, so the win value of those R-scores should be similar.

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Yeah, mea culpa. I for some reason completely overlooked that. I usually have a good in-depth dig at a guy’s stats, even if I don’t know him, but I dunno, I was in a rush this morning I guess (giving Herman the literal backup of being an ‘overlooked’ player). That deserves another look, and maybe a vote if Reuschel doesn’t really need mine. But, that said, if you know anything about me from the last few rounds, it’s that being as good as Killebrew certainly isn’t enough to get you my vote. So I don’t know if that moves him… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

Oh I was giving you credit Bells! It was because of your post that I took a closer look at Herman.

Like you, I’m disinclined to vote for someone who I consider a maybe. At the same time, it seems clear to me that he was better than several of the current holdovers.

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Ah, understood, the written word is hard to read into at times. Either way, you would have been justified in calling me out on not noticing that.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Ott, Alomar, Minoso

Bix
Bix
9 years ago

Ott, Boudreau, Eckersley

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

We’ll be enshrining Master Melvin next week, but as bells mentioned above, the undercard is a battle royal… Here’s how the pitchers stack up, by turning a counting stat into a rate stat (to adjust for length of career). Innings Pitched per Win Above Average IpWaa: 73.5 …. (1969) Dean 80.3 …. (3256) Brown 93.1 …. (3548) Reuschel 101.0 … (3486) Tiant 107.4 … (3286) Eckersley 109.3 … (3170) Ford 136.6 … (2719) Claude Passeau 141.8 … (3219) Dutch Leonard 144.8 … (2781) Lon Warneke 152.1 … (3104) Bucky Walters (also 7.8 WAR as a position player) 200.3 … (3425)… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

JAWS 80.3 … Master Melvin Ott (4th at RF – Ruth, Aaron, Musial) 55.8 … Boudreau (15th at SS) 54.8 … Alomar (13th at 2B) 53.6 … Murray (14th at 1B) 50.8 … Winfield (19th at RF) 49.2 … Killebrew (19th at 1B) 47.6 … Medwick (16th at LF) 45.1 … Herman (19th at 2B) 43.8 … Hack (24th at 3B) 39.8 … Minoso (22nd at LF) 33.5 … Campanella (25th at C) WAR 107.8 . Ott 68.3 … Murray 66.8 … Alomar 63.8 … Winfield 63.0 … Boudreau 60.3 … Killer 55.5 … Medwick 54.7 … Herman 52.5 …… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

One more breakdown, fairly long: Applying some 4th grade math to those counting stats… Here is Wins Above Average, expressed as a rate stat, by dividing it into Plate Appearances (PaWaa): PaWaa: 160.7 … (11348) Melvin Ott 166.4 … (7024) Lou Boudreau 287.8 … (7712) Minnie Minoso 289.8 … (8143) Duck Medwick 306.7 … (4815) Roy Campanella 322.0 …(10400) Rob Alomar 324.8 … (8639) Billy Herman 343.1 … (8508) Stan Hack 350.0 … (9833) Harmon Killebrew (note Killer behind Herman and Hack) 413.1 … (2148) Bucky Walters 474.8 …(12817) Eddie Murray 521.4 …(12358) Dave! Winfield _______ Good, but let’s adjust… Read more »

brp
brp
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

“350.0 … (9833) Harmon Killebrew (note Killer behind Herman and Hack)” If you’re going to make this note, why not point out how Killebrew is way out in front through your 7000PA metric and both O-PA metrics? Picking out one statistic that highlights one position while ignoring others that might hold water for the other is a little odd. Through 7000 PA, Killebrew is ahead of Roberto Alomar and Roy Campanella, both of whom seem to have more ardent supporters. Again I’m not saying we MUST have Killebrew, but it really feels as though everyone is piling on. Even at… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  brp

Just seeing if anyone is paying attention to my long arcane number posts.

brp
brp
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

For sure, they are definitely interesting.

David P
David P
9 years ago

I remain puzzled over how Ott finished 6th in the MVP voting in 1936. His team won the pennant and he led them in all the triple crown categories plus runs scored. In fact none of his teammates were even close to him in HR and RBIs. He had 33 and 135, no one else had more than 9 and 67. His teammate Carl Hubbell won the award and it does seem that he deserved it. Next up was Dizzy Dean. I don’t that one. He had a good season but hardly a great one by his standards and his… Read more »

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

This year’s tidbits. – Mel Ott’s 6 seasons of 100 walks and 100 runs were then the NL record. Who was the first NL player to surpass Ott’s mark? – Dutch Leonard’s 199 games and 465 IP are both Cub franchise records for pitchers aged 40 or older. Included was Leonard’s 1949 season when he led the majors in FIP. Who are the other 3 pitchers to do this aged 40 or older? – Mel Harder and Whitey Ford are the only single franchise AL pitchers with 3000+ IP and fewer than 200 complete games. Who is the only such… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Bucky Walters: can it really have been Livan Hernandez?

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Somehow, I missed the 300+ innings part. The last guy to lead his league in IP three years in a row WAS Livan Hernandez, though, which I find pretty weird. I guess I just don’t think of him as THAT much of a workhorse. Mea culpa if my (very wrong) answer confused anyone.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Harder/Ford question: Don Drysdale

I think the answer to the Bucky Walters question must be Phil Niekro…let me check…yep, Niekro from 1977-79. Steve Carlton pitched 304 innings in 1980, and no one has pitched 300+ since then.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Additional tidbits: Dutch Leonard is the only pitcher to give up HR to Lou Gehrig and Willie Mays. Gehrig’s 9-27-38 HR off Leonard was his last. Pinky Higgins set a record in 1938 with hits in 12 consecutive AB. There were 2 walks in that streak. It was tied by Walt Dropo in 1952. There were no walks in his streak. Mel Ott must have really been upset when the Phillies abandoned Baker Bowl in mid-1938 and started playing their home games at Shibe Park. His slash line at the Bowl (557 PA): .415/.508/.774/1.282 with 40 HR and 161 RBI.… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Mel Ott question: Joe Morgan

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Mace Brown question: Marty Pattin did it. I’m assuming the 2 years of 30 relief outings are not consecutive.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Pattin is the one.

Oddly, those two seasons of 30 relief appearances were the first and last of Pattin’s 13-year career. No other pitcher with a career longer than 5 seasons has made 30 relief appearances ONLY in his first and last seasons.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Pete Fox question: Jackie Robinson, 6 games

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Eric McNair question: Mark Grudzielanek.

Grud (I’m not typing that last name again) had 54 doubles and led the NL in 1997 for Montreal. What’s weird about his total that year is he did it with an OPS under .700 and had a 81 OPS+. Those are the lowest marks for anyone with 50 or more doubles in a season.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Doubles were definitely Grudzielanek’s specialty. His 391 career two-baggers ranks as the 7th highest total among those with career OPS+ of 90 or less. It’s the highest total among those who also have fewer than 8000 PA. Ironically, Grudz also holds the live ball era record for non-pitchers for the most hits in a season without an extra-base hit – 30 in his age 40 comeback try with the Indians. Pitcher Lynn Nelson (who had the nickname “Line Drive”) had 31 singles in 1938 including 5 multi-hit games and 7 pinch hits (Lynn appeared in 66 games that year, 36… Read more »

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I’m late to the party on this one, but that Grudzielanek season is fascinating. His 81 OPS+ and .690 are not only the lowest marks for a 50 double season, they’re the lowest marks for a 43+ double season! Bert Niehoff had a lower OPS with 42 doubles in 1924. With 41 doubles we see Bill Wambsganss (these names aren’t getting any easier to spell) with a lower OPS and OPS+ in 1924, and Ken Reitz with a lower OPS in 1979. It’s also the only 50+ double season with doubles greater than RBI. There are six other 40+ doubles… Read more »

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Correction: Bert Niehoff’s season was 1916.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Billy Herman question: Woody Williams in 1944 and Johnny Ray in 1982.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Williams was a career minor leaguer whose rookie season came as a 31 year-old wartime replacement for 33 year-old Lonny Frey (who was called to active duty stateside). Williams continued his consecutive games streak with the first 113 games of the 1945 season, but was used only sparingly in the final month of that season. With Frey returning in 1946, Williams never played in the majors again, instead moving on to the PCL’s Hollywood Stars (where he likely also saw a bigger paycheck).

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

For the Stan Hack question, I’m gonna guess Billy Madlock.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Not a bad guess, but Madlock had too much pop (31 doubles and 15 HR per 162 games) to have ISO below .100, which is what we’re looking for here.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

How about Bob Dillinger?

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Dillinger is the one, and he barely made the 3000 PA threshold.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Bill Lee: Ray Prim, 1945. My first thought was Maddux, but I guess he didn’t win an ERA title in Chicago.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Prim is proper (and correct). If Fergie Jenkins hadn’t been so prone to the gopher ball, he might have had a chance (his best ERA finish as a Cub was 9th). In an 11 year span (1967-77), Jenkins was in the top 5 every year for most home runs allowed, including 6 first place finishes. Part of that was pitching a lot of innings, but his HR/9 was still well above league average. His ultra-low BB/9 (he had five 1st place rankings and ranked lower than 3rd only once in 10 seasons 1969-78) would suggest that, to use modern parlance,… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Dutch Leonard question: Babe Adams in 1922, Nolan Ryan in 1987 and Randy Johnson in 2004. Dazzy Vance in 1931 and Roger Clemens in 2005 led their leagues in FIP.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Like Leonard, Babe Adams had an unusual renaissance upon reaching his late 30s and early 40s. After an 87 ERA+ over his age 32-34 seasons, Adams was demoted to A ball for his entire age 35 season, and AA ball for almost his entire age 36 season. But, back in the majors, he averaged over 200 IP and 127 ERA+ aged 37-41, including a 150 ERA+ aged 37-39.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Remaining quiz answers. Harry Gumbert question: pitcher with two LCS appearances allowing 4+ runs in under 2 IP – Jose Valverde Lon Warneke question: other two franchise pitchers with .600 W-L% in 1000 IP for each club – Lefty Grove, Mike Mussina Gene Moore question: first Braves team (and only one before this century) with 3 outfielders with 3.5 WAR – 1965 (Hank Aaron, Felipe Alou, Mack Jones) Pinky Higgins question: NL player with most consecutive seasons batting .265 with 125 games at 3rd base – Pie Traynor, 12 seasons (1922-33) Claude Passeau question: other live ball era Cub pitcher… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I can’t believe that I didn’t think of Valverde.

Must be some sort of protective amnesia.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug: Did you use Fangraphs to solve for the Lon Warneke question or did you use BR PI?

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago

Richard — Any answers to the Warneke question would need at least 2,000 career innings and a .600 W%. There are only 16 modern pitchers to do that *and* play for exactly two teams. It turns out that only Warneke, Grove and Mussina even met the “1,000 IP for each team” aspect, regardless of W%.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Thanks John. I used Fangraphs and by using a complicated procedure came up with Warneke, Grove and Mussina. I also found the following additional pitchers who played for just two franchises, with 1000+ IP for each: Barry Zito, Bob Welch, Eppa Rixey, Rube Benton and Tom Glavine.
.

RJ
RJ
9 years ago

Mel Ott strikes me as very similar to Hank Aaron in the way that he kept on putting up great offensive numbers year after year, without ever having an all-time great season with the bat. Here are their seasonal Rbat numbers from best season to worst, side by side: Ott / Aaron 63 / 64 62 / 62 61 / 59 61 / 56 57 / 56 52 / 54 49 / 53 47 / 44 45 / 44 40 / 43 40 / 41 37 / 40 37 / 38 33 / 38 31 / 37 29 / 35… Read more »

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Nifty analysis, RJ.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Your list reminds me of a comparison that Bill James did of George Sisler to Babe Ruth about which he said something on the lines of this is not to imply that Sisler is as good as Ruth but if you can stand side by side with him and not look ridiculous you’re pretty good. And not only does Ott not look ridiculous when compared to Aaron for about a dozen years there he looks pretty much identical.

Great catch.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

.420
246 hits
51 steals
14 strikeouts

And misses the entire next season with sinusitis.

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Sisler will be an interesting one when we get to him. As for Ott, it is interesting how comparable he is to Aaron. Ott has always felt to me like I don’t hear enough about him in baseball history for how good he was. I guess that happens when you come along at a time when the Bambino’s shadow is so long, and so guys like him and Jimmie Foxx are relatively obscure to the casual modern fan. I feel like if someone came along and produced like him for the right franchise at the right time, they’d be an… Read more »

paget
paget
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

bells @91, I don’t know if this speaks to your point about Ott’s reputation with the “casual, modern fan,” but my sense is that evaluation of Ott’s career has long been saddled (unfairly) with the observation that he has the severest split between Home HR and Road HR in the history of the game. Even as a kid, I can’t ever remember reading anything about Ott’s status as a member of the 500 HR club, that didn’t refer to the Polo Grounds and the remarkable advantage it gave him as a HR hitter (H:323 R:188). Of course, what that observation… Read more »

paget
paget
9 years ago
Reply to  paget

Just checked out Ott’s career batting splits page on b-ref: man, check out the difference in BAbip: Home .271 / Road .314

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  paget

The Babip split is partially due to homers not being ‘in play.’

paget
paget
9 years ago
Reply to  paget

Voomo @96,
Of course. And, one imagines, A LOT of fly ball outs to the alleys and center field.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Sisler basically had two careers, one prior to his missed 1923 season due to his sinus and eye problems and one subsequent to 1923, at his age 30.

His stats prior to 1923:
.361/.404/.510/.914; 4572 PA, 732 R, 60 HR, 612 RBI, 155 OPS+. More than half of his PA were in the dead-ball era.

Subsequent to 1923:
.320/.354/.426/.779; 4440 PA, 552 R, 42 HR, 566 RBI, 97 OPS+.

So it’s another what-if situation.

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago

Mel Ott
Kevin Brown
Lou Boudreau

RJ
RJ
9 years ago

Ott, Boudreau, Brown.

Stubby
9 years ago

Campy, Minoso, Mel Harder Ott’s a no-brainer, but he doesn’t need my vote. Campy and Minnie frequently do. Mel Harder is one of the best pitchers most people never heard of. Spent his entire 20 year career with the Indians (who weren’t very good most of those years); only Walter Johnson pitched more consecutive seasons with the same team (21). Only Bob Feller won more games for the Indians. Everyone still talks about Carl Hubbell’s 5 consecutive strikeouts in the 1934 All Star game, but few remember that Harder pitched five scoreless innings to get the win in that game.… Read more »

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Besides Ott, a number of very good players new to this ballot, though none of them with COG credentials. For the hitters, Billy Herman and Stan Hack both exceeded 50 WAR, as did Leonard among the pitchers, while four others (Passeau, Harder, Warneke, Walters) were over 40 WAR and another (Lee) was over 30. Leonard, incidentally, is the only pitcher with two 6 WAR seasons aged 38 or older (and the only pitcher whose only 6 WAR seasons were at that age), both times while pitching less than 250 innings. In 250+ innings, only Cy Young, Phil Niekro and Randy… Read more »

Francisco
Francisco
9 years ago

Mel Ott, Joe Medwick, Kevin Brown

KalineCountry Ron
KalineCountry Ron
9 years ago

Mel Ott
Minnie
Campy

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
9 years ago

Ott, Boudreau, Eck

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Ott, Killebrew, Campanella

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Here’s your first voting update. It takes you through JEV’s vote @43, the 20th vote of the round. Here you are: 18 (90%) – Mel Ott 5 (25%) – Kevin Brown 4 (20%) – Lou Boudreau, Roy Campanella 3 (15%) – Dizzy Dean, Dennis Eckersley, Harmon Killebrew, Minnie Minoso, Eddie Murray, Rick Reuschel 2 (10%) – Mel Harder, Billy Herman, Joe Medwick, Luis Tiant 1 (5%) – Roberto Alomar, Stan Hack, Dave Winfield It’s nice to do one of these vote updates with 20 people, so I don’t have to type decimal places. Happy voting, and happy Black Friday shopping,… Read more »

PaulE
PaulE
9 years ago

Ott, Hack, Winfield

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Mel Ott, Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown

Kirk
Kirk
9 years ago

Ott, Minoso, reuschel

brp
brp
9 years ago

Mel Ott to win
Dave Winfield to stay alive
Bruce Campbell for presumably being groovy (and don’t really have another strategic vote to make ATM)

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  brp

Hail to the king, baby.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

People have already pointed out that Billy Herman was a pretty nifty player and Stan Hack was as well. I don’t think either of them are quite COG worthy however. I’d have a hard time reconciling the idea of either of them making it and not Nettles or Bell or Randolph or probably half a dozen other guys we’ve already passed on.

My first 2 votes are easy. The 3rd was a toss up with Reuschel & Tiant which I may reconsider.

Ott, Campanella, Minoso

Jeff Hill
Jeff Hill
9 years ago

Ott, Boudreau, Brown

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
9 years ago

Killebrew,Ott, and Medwick

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Mace Brown was the 3rd pitcher to ever have a season of 50+ Games Two starts or less. 55/0 … 1925 . Firpo Marberry 58/2 … 1927 . Garland Braxton 50/2 … 1937 . Mace Brown 53/0 … 1937 . Clint Brown (yes, another Brown, the same year) Marberry was Braxton’s teammate in 1927. He logged 56/10. They both pitched 155.1 innings, tied for 4th on the staff. Tris Speaker joined Goslin and Rice in the Senators’ outfield that year. And they got a negative WAR effort out of Walter Johnson. http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/WSH/1927.shtml Muddy Bucky Ossie Goose Topper Bennie Stuffy Babe… Read more »

ATarwerdi96
ATarwerdi96
9 years ago

Mel Ott, Dennis Eckersley, Kevin Brown

jajacob
jajacob
9 years ago

ott, browm, alomar

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

@60 Lawrence,

Thanks for the info on Herman.

J.R.
J.R.
9 years ago

Ott, Killebrew, and Murray please.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

After Ott is elected, we will have 41 remaining spots in the COG (119, yes?) There are 27 eligible players to come with at least 68 WAR. 13 on our holdover list. Lots of good players in purgatory. And a handful of very special cases like Shoeless Joe. 1. Babe Ruth 2. Ty Cobb 3. Tris Speaker 4. Honus Wagner 5. Rogers Hornsby 6. Eddie Collins 7. Lou Gehrig 8. Nap Lajoie 9. Jimmie Foxx 10. George Davis 11. Charlie Gehringer 12. Bill Dahlen 13. Sam Crawford 14. Paul Waner 15. Harry Heilmann 16. Frankie Frisch 17. Bobby Wallace 18.… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I thought it was 122… but that being said, Big Unit will go in in January, and so will Pedro. I’m nor sure about Smoltz. One would think Biggio has a shot. I doubt Piazza will, but he managed over 62% last time on a crowded ballot. That’s up to 5 more spots, and AT LEAST two for sure.

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

There are 114 players who were elected by the BBWAA. You can see the list here: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofmem4.shtml I agree that we’ll add at least two more spots in January. And the only serious candidate in the 1970 birth cohort is Jim Thome. Meanwhile, I doubt everyone on the current holdover list gets elected. Plus I’m doubtful on some of the players on Voomo’s list since they played at least half their career in the 19th century. Of course, Voomo’s list doesn’t include any of the remaining catchers. And there are players like Carl Hubbell and Joe Cronin who I expect… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Pretty sure I omitted the guys who don’t qualify (like Kid Nichols).

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Except Delahanty. Good catch, hartvig.

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Huh, I was pretty sure I remembered that we had 112 to start with, and since 3 were elected last year I figured it was 115. But that list says 114. But then the baseball HoF site itself says 115: http://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers So I wonder if that site missed someone? I don’t have the patience to look right now. But if it’s 115 now, I expect it to be at least 118 after January 6th (I don’t see how Biggio doesn’t pick up 2 extra votes, and Smoltz should debut with at least 50% and I wouldn’t be surprised if he… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

Thanks Bells! The site I linked to is missing Gehrig. Perhaps because he was elected by a special election? Or maybe it’s just an oversight on their part. Either way, Gehrig was elected by the BBWAA so I’m pretty sure the 115 is correct.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

You are not counting Gehrig and Clemente; I beleve birtelcom was.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Next in line after your cutoff point: Fred Clarke Carl Hubbell Joe Cronin Goose Goslin Home Run Baker Wes Ferrell Zack Wheat Jake Beckley Stan Coveleski Dazzy Vance Sherry Magee Urban Shocker Rube Waddell Jack Quinn Joe McGinnity George Sisler Three-finger Brown George Uhle Bill Dickey Eppa Rixey Bill Terry And we still haven’t gotten to Wee Willie Keeler, Gabby Hartnett, Mickey Cochrane or Jimmy Collins After the original 6 that the BBWAA selected the picked Speaker, Lajoie and Alexander in the next 3 elections. Numbers 10 & 11 were Sisler and Keeler. I would figure that between 10 and… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Also Red Ruffing.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

This isn’t the Hall of WAR.
But as a reference, 67.5 WAR is 120th place all-time.

Remove the 10 guys who don’t qualify for our exercise (pre-1900), and 120th place is 66.1 WAR.

Here’s who we’ve elected below the benchmark:

67.5 . Ryne Sandberg
67.5 . Ernie Banks
66.5 . Duke Snider
66.3 . Pee Wee Reese (WWII)
65.1 . Craig Biggio
64.4 . Willie McCovey
61.5 . Jackie Robinson (WWII and Exclusion)
59.3 . Yogi Berra (WWII and Catcher)
59.2 . Mike Piazza (Catcher)
57.5 . Hank Greenberg (WWII)
57.1 . Joe Gordon (WWII)

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

The Redemption candidates above the benchmark:

71.6 . Rafael Palmiero (viagra and moustache)
68.7 . Don Sutton (compiler with a bad perm)
68.0 . Graig Nettles (low batting average)
_____

The guys above 64:

66.9 . Dwight Evans
66.1 . Buddy Bell
65.5 . Willie Randolph
64.5 . Andre Dawson
64.5 . Reggie Smith (8051 PA)

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

There’s also the factor of Alex Rodriguez, Albert Pujols, Chipper Jones, Pedro Martinez, Adrian Beltre, Jim Thome, Derek Jeter, Scott Rolen, Manny Ramirez, Ivan Rodriguez, and Carlos Beltran.

Those 11 guys aren’t eligible (though some of them will be before we are finished).

But subtract those guys and 120th place is 64 WAR.

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

We’ve also elected several pitchers below that WAR line in the sand:

Smoltz (67 WAR)
Feller (65)
Marichal (62)
Rivera (57)
Whitey (54)
Koufax (53)

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Thanks. I sensed something was amiss. Didn’t see there was a “Sheet #2.”

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

David Horwich @79 reminded me of Ted Lyons who was yet to be mentioned as a potential COGer. 67.2 pitching WAR + 4.4 batting + missed time due to WWII (granted he was already in his 40s but he was coming off a 4.7 WAR season plus led the league in ERA and ERA+).

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

In 1942 Lyons completed all his 20 starts. He is the last pitcher to do so with a minimum of 20 starts. 13 of those starts were on Sunday.

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago

Lyons started the first game of a double header 15 times, if I’m counting right.

Another thing I noticed is that well over half the White Sox games that year lasted less than two hours, and the longest that didn’t go into extra innings was 2:31. One of Lyons’ games had a score of 14-2 and lasted 1:56, in spite of having no HRs and only five doubles among the 24 hits.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Looks like he started the first game of a DH 14 times. He completed all 5 starts of his final season in 1946 and his last 3 in 1941. So he completed the last 28 starts of his career.

bstar
9 years ago

It would be really interesting to see Lyons’ times-through-the-order splits for the years he only pitched once a week but completed most of those games. We only have a 22-game sample for that split–but in that limited sample he was lights out 4th-time-thru (77 tOPS+ against).

PP
PP
9 years ago

Ott, Killer, Eck

PP
PP
9 years ago

Ott, Killer, Eck

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago

Not noted here so far, I think, is the fact that Bucky Walters not only got into organized baseball rather late but came up to the majors as a third baseman and was only shifted to the mound in 1935. For the period from 1935 to 1949 he had the most WAR of any pitcher, partially because he didn’t get called for military service, true. But had he started earlier and been a hurler all along, his record might be something more immediately impressive. Mel Harder deserves a look, too. For a period of three years in the mid-thirties, he… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago

Harder pitched 20 seasons all with the Indians and never made the postseason. In an ironic twist, the team won the WS the year after he retired.

Are there any single franchise players who can match or better Harder’s “feat”? (Banks by the way only played 19 seasons).

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Luke Appling matches Harder.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

…and Ted Lyons at 21 years surpasses both Harder and Appling.

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Thanks again David H! You’re all over my questions. 🙂

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Happy to help. Of course I hardly need mention that Lyons and Appling were teammmates for many years. And then Banks with 19 years…it’s a Chicago thing, I guess.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Joe DiMaggio called Harder the toughest pitcher he ever faced.

David P
David P
9 years ago

Harder definitely dominated DiMaggio (.OPS in 25 PA). Oddly, all of their matchups took place after Harder’s prime (40, 41, 42 and 47).

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

David P:

Matchup records only go back to 1940 at the present time.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Stan Musial didn’t better Harder in that his Cardinals made the post-season in each of Musial’s first four full seasons (the Cards missed the post-season in the year Stan lost to military service).

But, after that, Musial played 17 more seasons without a post-season appearance and, like Harder’s Indians, the Cards won the WS the year after Musial retired.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago

Ott, Alomar, Miñoso.

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

Ott, Killebrew, and Murray. What can I say? I like home runs.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Ott, Killebrew and Minoso.

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Ott, Murray, Eckersley.

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
9 years ago

Ott, Boudreau, Campanella.