Circle of Greats 1904 Part 2 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 86th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round completes the addition to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1904. Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1904 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — the top half by alphabetical order was added in this past week’s round and the bottom half is being added this round.  This round’s new group joins the holdovers from prior balloting to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

The new group of 1904-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1904-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

In total there were 17 players born in 1904 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement. Eight of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Bump Hadley to Sam West).  The nine players higher up in the alphabet were added in this past week’s round.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Tuesday, March 3, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Sunday, March 1.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1904 Part 2 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1904 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The fourteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1904 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dwight Evans (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Red Ruffing (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1904, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Chuck Klein
Buddy Myer
Sam West
Ray Hayworth
Billy Rogell
Pepper Martin
Mark Koenig

Pitchers (born in 1904, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Bump Hadley

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Chris C
Chris C
7 years ago

Murray, Eck, Ashburn

Steve
Steve
7 years ago

Red Ruffing, Harmon Killebrew; and Dwight Evans – Still cannot give a to Mr. May nor Eddie Murray who played a long time but was never in the discussion as the best of his generation.

David P
David P
7 years ago
Reply to  Steve

So Ruffing, Killebrew, and Evans were in the discussion for best of their generation???

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
7 years ago
Reply to  David P

Conversation:

Best hitting pitcher.
Best three-true-outcome, three-positon player.
Best productive-from-all-nine-batting-order-positions player with a moustache.

mosc
mosc
7 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Best hitting pitcher is Ferrell not Ruffing.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago

This is just getting tougher and tougher every round. Best of luck to all the candidates before the 1903 round comes to make the COG bar go much, much, MUCH higher.

Kevin Brown
Luis Tiant
Graig Nettles

That third spot was a toughy – Nettles, Ferrell, Reuschel, and Campy are all rightthere for me… but I have two pitchers already and didn’t want to go with three, and when in doubt, I’ll take the guy with the ML track record, rather than the one for whom we have to project.

David P
David P
7 years ago

I’m giving all three of my votes to the snubbed-for-way-too-long Mr. Murray!

Wait, what do you mean I can’t do that????!!!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Fine.

1) Murray
2) Nettles to try to get him an extra round ahead of 1903.
3) Evans

Paul E
Paul E
7 years ago

Killebrew, Murray, Winfield

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
7 years ago

Minoso, Ashburn, Ruffing

Doug
Doug
7 years ago

This round’s tidbits. 1. Bump Hadley lost 20 games in each of his first two seasons (1932-33) with the Browns. Who was the first Browns pitcher to do this? 2. Chuck Klein’s triple crown season in 1933 is the only one by a Phillie. Besides Klein, which four Phillies had a season since 1901 with two-thirds of a triple crown? 3. Buddy Myer played 200 games at 2B, 3B and SS within the first 6 seasons of his career. Who is the only player since Myer to do the same? 4. Sam West was the career WAR leader among contemporary… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Yes! An easy one!!!!

Chuck Klein – Sherry Magee (1910), Gavvy Cravath (1913, 1915), Mike Schmidt (1980, 1981, 1984, 1986), and Ryan Howard (2006, 2008).

Doug
Doug
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Yup.

Good on you for knowing the dead ball guys.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Ooh! I think I might have another!

I think the answer to the Billy Rogell question is actually not a guy most of us probably think of as a SS, which makes it a bit trickier – Dick McAuliffe, 1964 and 1966.

Doug
Doug
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Good thou8ght, but McAuliffe’s 66 walks in ’66 is just shy of the mark.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Dang!!! I was looking at the SO column instead of BB! (Not the first time I’ve made that mistake, actually.)

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I believe the answer is Eddie Lake, in 1946 and 1947.

Doug
Doug
7 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

That is correct.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

And another!

I believe the answer to the Sam West question is someone I wrote about over in the Results post – none other than Mr. Nick Markakis, 2007-2009.

By the way, I’ve also heard some people claim that Nick Markakis is the best player ever to have neither appeared in an All-Star game nor received any MVP votes. I think that’s pretty compelling, because I can’t think of anyone better. Can anyone out there think of another such player superior to Markakis (since the establishment of the All-Star game, that is)?

Doug
Doug
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Markakis is in a group of 33 players with 1500 hits in fewer than 6000 PA through age 30. The only other one in the group who was never an A-S was Juan Pierre, who twice received MVP votes.

Of the players in that group, Markakis’s slash (.290/.358/.435) through age 30 is most similar to Jose Reyes, but not too far off that of our last COG inductee, Joe Cronin (.301/.383/.453).

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Highest WAR I can find in the no ASG/no MVP votes category is Mark Ellis, with 33.2 bWAR. I was ready to say Tony Phillips was the runaway winner, but he actually got some MVP votes for his great 1993 season. Jose Valentin is another one with a decent bWAR, with 31.6. Both Valentin and Ellis are getting a lot of their value from position and defense. Markakis is a better hitter, and he has two GG’s, but the metrics don’t like his defense very much.

Doug
Editor
7 years ago

Any others like Kirk Gibson to win an MVP but never get selected as an A-S?

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Nope, Gibby’s the only MVP from the ASG-era to not make an ASG. IIRC, he claims he was a manager’s selection for the 1988 ASG but turned down the invite because he wanted to spend the break with his family.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

@70,

Somewhat related: won MVP, but not selected to the ASG that year. I’m aware of Hank Greenberg in 1935, but there must be others??

Doug
Doug
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

LA @77

Terry Pendleton, Chipper Jones, Jimmy Rollins, Juan Gonzalez and Justin Morneau are others of the past 25 years who were A-S snubs (or declined selection) in their MVP seasons.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

@80/Doug;

Thanks for the info; somehow I missed it on Tuesday.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

So the next question would be, who is the best guy that fits the above criteria, but also never won or got any votes for a major end of season award? Markakis won two GG’s, and all three of the above (Markakis, Ellis and Valentin) got Rookie of the Year votes.

The best I can find there is Bob Bailey, with 28.7 bWAR over his 17 year career.

Doug
Editor
7 years ago

Bailey’s 1931 games are also the longest career for any player since 1933 who never received any A-S or Awards recognition. He’s just ahead of Dave Martinez with 1919 games. Their lack of recognition may or may not be related to playing significant portions of their careers for the Expos.

Next on the list is Lenny Harris with 1903 games and only 2.0 career WAR. At least, he clearly earned his non-recognition.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Okay, only one more… but it’s really fun to answer these (especially coming up with ways to figure it out sans PI).

Bump Hadley – the answer is Harry Howell, 1904 and 1905, in which he lost 21 and 22, respectively. No other Browns/Orioles pitchers other than these two lost 20+ more than once in ANY seasons, much less whilst making a first impression!

Doug
Doug
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Right you are, double-D.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug: For the Buddy Myer question the best I could do was to find a guy named Jimmy Brown who played 200+ games at 2B and 3B but only 199 games at SS.

Doug
Doug
7 years ago

Jimmy Brown is the answer. P-I says he had 200 games at each position.

http://bbref.com/pi/shareit/NnKLR

But, I see how you came up with 199 for shortstop, based on the fielding stats section of his player page.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Is the answer to the Ray Hayworth question Rick Dempsey?

Doug
Editor
7 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

It is Dempsey, who caught 53 games for the Dodgers in 1990, 45 years after Hayworth. Since Dempsey, Sandy Alomar and Brad Ausmus have both caught for LA aged 40+. Dempsey is also the oldest player to catch in the NLCS (at age 39 in 1988), and the oldest player to pitch and catch in the same season (at age 41 in 1991). Dempsey caught Mike Flanagan in 1992, one of only twelve batteries with both players over 40 and the only one of the twelve with both playing in their final game. Game Combined Age Pitcher Age Catcher Age… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

On 5-2-56 40+ P Ellis Kinder and 40+ C Walker Cooper of the Cards played in the same game but not as a battery. Kinder pitched the top of the 9th against the Pirates. He was pinch-hit for in the bottom of the 9th. Going into the top of the 10th Jackie Collum came in to pitch and Cooper replaced C Bill Sarni.

Doug
Doug
7 years ago

Rip Sewell and Johnny Riddle had a similar close call on 6-20-48 when Sewell started and was shelled, not making it out of the second inning. With the Pirates trailing 7-0 after two, Riddle spelled Buc catcher Ed Fitz Gerald, entering the game to start the 3rd inning. Also, Charlie Hough and Carlton Fisk played numerous times in the same game, but never as a battery. In Hough starts, Fisk would get the day off or play DH or first base. On several occasions, Fisk moved from 1B to C at the same time Hough was removed from the game.… Read more »

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

For the Pepper Martin question, the lowest number of runs I can find scored by a player reaching base at least 200 times in a season is 43 (Ray Knight in 1983 and Tim Jordan in 1907). Could the answer be those two, or are we looking for an even lower total?

Doug
Doug
7 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

There is a lower Runs total if you include ROE in the reached based totals.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Oh, good grief…that was much simpler! I had no idea TOBwe was a searchable stat. That produced the answer in seconds: Chico Carrasquel with 41 runs in 1951. I spent a lot more time than that last night adding H+BB+HBP. That produced several totals in the 190s for players who scored fewer than 50 runs, so I figured I was missing some stat (I thought maybe reaching base on a fielder’s choice), but nothing was apparent. Thanks for the tip, Doug!

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Mark Koening question: 1978 World Series.

Doug
Doug
7 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

That is correct.

Both Bucky Dent and Bill Russell batted .400 for the 1978 series. The year before, the same two shortstops hit a combined .200 (9 for 45) in the Fall Classic.

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
7 years ago

Nettles, Campanella, Eckersley.

JEV
JEV
7 years ago

Killebrew, Campanella, Brown

donburgh
donburgh
7 years ago

Murray, Reuschel, Winfield

Joseph
Joseph
7 years ago

Questions re Chuck Klein. Anybody know much about him? He seems to have had little support for the HOF from the BBWA, but the veterans committee voted him in. What’s the story with that?

Anyone care to speculate as to why he is getting little support here?

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

I think a lot has to do with offensive context. To me, Klein is an inferior Larry Walker. He’s got great offensive stats, but he produced them in one of the biggest offensive boom periods in baseball history, and he did it while largely playing his home games in one of the most offensively-tilted stadiums of all time, the Baker Bowl. Of course, he’s not all a product of era and ballpark; a 137 career OPS+ over just under 7,200 PA’s is still impressive. But he doesn’t add any positional or defensive value, and it’s hard to ignore his galling… Read more »

David P
David P
7 years ago

The Walker-Klein comparison is the easy one to make since they both spent considerable time in extreme hitters’ parks. But Walker obviously had a much more diverse skill set.

I looked for recent players who 1) had similar WAR, 2) had similar career length, 3) were poor defensively, 4) put up video game offensive numbers.

I came up with two players. Albert Belle and Juan Gonzalez.

Neither has the extreme home-road split that Klein does but I think those comps work better than Walker.

no statistician but
no statistician but
7 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Klein was, yeah, like Larry Walker, but he was also like George Sisler. Halfway through his career he suffered an injury—Sisler’s problem was an eye condition—after which he was never the same. He’d been traded to the Cubs after his triple crown year—sold, really—and was expected to produce in Chicago in a big way. Which he did: until the injury, he was among the league leaders in all his usual departments, even though he no longer had the Baker Bowl as home base.* Pride and pressure from the club combined to do him in—back in those days you gutted it… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 years ago

nsb, interesting about Klein’s injury problems and his “stick it out” behavior with the Cubs. I didn’t actually know about that. Still, even before then, his home/road splits were pretty eye-popping. In that 1933 triple crown year, he had a 1.305 OPS at home and a .774 OPS on the road. But a lot of people got to play in hitters parks in the 1930’s, and very few of them reached heights as lofty as Klein at his apex. David P compared Klein to Albert Belle, which is even more apt given the injury. Both guys were legitimately great hitters… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 years ago

Klein’s overall OPS for 1933 was 1.025. The difference between his home OPS and overall OPS was .280, the most for a player with at least 400 PA. Second is Willie McCovey with a difference of .268 and third is Belle with .251.

Joseph
Joseph
7 years ago

So, any thoughts on why he was not considered HOF worthy by the BBWA, but he made it in through the veterans committee?

Perhaps it was just sympathy for an injured comrade who at one time was among the elite?

David P
David P
7 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Joseph – His SABR bio mentioned a couple of factors, chief among them a letter writing campaign started by a Philadelphia school teacher, who often recruited his students to write letters as well. That campaign was eventually combined with a campaign by Klein’s sister-in-law.

Around that same time, Richard Nixon – an honorary member of the BBWAA – named his all-time team and included Klein as a backup outfielder for the NL (pre 1945).

no statistician but
no statistician but
7 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Joseph:

See my comment at #34. Didn’t make the sidebar. Hope this does.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

@24; There’s some interesting stories about Klein in Donald Honig’s great interview book of players between the wars: ‘Baseball When the Grass Was Real’. Sorry, can’t remember in which player’s chapter they are. Bill James wrote in his HOF book that once Hack Wilson was picked by the Veteran’s Committee in 1979, there was no way they couldn’t justify _not_ inducting Klein, which they did the next year. His career AIR (offensive context) in B-R is 110, which is high, but not close to the highest I’ve see: Todd Helton – 122 Dante Bichette – 117 Larry Walker – 116… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Lawrence – I think the comparison that James makes is to players like Chick Hafey (1971) and Ross Youngs (1972) (and possibly other friends of Frisch), which explains why Hack Wilson and Chuck Klein were elected. And why there are people who push for Ken Williams and Babe Herman and Lefty O’Doul to be elected. I think Sisler is a different case than Klein. As NSB says, Klein had a career that should be remembered. But Sisler … he’s like Koufax. In the three years before his injury he was 719 for 1799 – that’s a .39966 batting average. Over… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
7 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Artie Z: Whether or not Wilson and Klein were good choices, and whether or not they their elections to the Hall were modeled after those of the Friends of Frisch, the fact is that they, and especially Klein, were powerhouses impossible to ignore in their own time. I would refine the argument to say that if Chick Hafey, et al, were deemed Hall-worthy, then Wilson and Klein, who between them led the NL eight consecutive years in home runs and—especially Klein—put up monster offensive totals in other ways, well, they were so superior to the FoFs that it was an… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

@82/AZ; I didn’t mean that George Sisler was similar in value/all-time rankings to Klein. Sisler was clearly a better player and quite HOF-worthy. I meant more how their career shapes are clearly split almost evenly into a ‘before the injury/condition’ and ‘after the injury/condition’ phase for both of them. Ernie Banks also exhibits this sharply defined career shape. You’re probably right about what Bill James wrote about why Klein (and Wilson) were selected by the Veteran’s Committee, I haven’t read it in a while. Using Friends Of Frankie Frisch such as Highpockets Kelly and Chick Hafey, you could easily justify… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Using Friends of Frankie Frisch we could justify … I don’t know, Hunter Pence if we’re using the lowest common denominator approach 🙂

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

@92/AZ: Pence IS about as good as several of the FOFF, and not that much worse than the rest. Using the JAWS HOF ratings on B-R, comparing Hunter Pence’s rating to the so-called ‘Friends of Frankie Frisch’: PENSE: 79th in RF …………….. (let the fun begin…) 1B: Jim Bottomley: 54th Highpockets Kelly: 85th (the two lowest-ranked 1Bmen) SS: Travis Jackson: 29th – actually, not so bad (ranks ahead of four SS) 3B: Freddie Lindstrom: 70th (the lowest-ranked 3Bmen) LF: Chick Hafey: 58th (the lowest-ranked LFer, except for Monte Irvin, who didn’t debut in MLB till age 30 because of the… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

@97; Correction – I re-read the ‘Friends Of Frankie Frisch’ section of Bill James’ book on the HOF last night. Not only was Hack Wilson _not_ a ‘Friend Of Frankie Frisch’, Frisch didn’t really like him as a player, didn’t think that belonged in the HOF. And Artie Z, in #82 – you are precisely correct; James argues that the selections of Hafey, Lindstrom, Highpockets Kelly et al made it impossible to ignore Hack Wilson and Chuck Klein. Related question – what is the last truly questionable selection by the Veteran’s Committee – Maz in 2001? If not Maz, then… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Actually, over the past 30 years or so I think the Veterans Committee has done at least as good a job as the BBWAA. They’ve fixed many of the worst of the writer’s omissions- Santo, Vaughan, George Davis- and most of their picks meet the good-as-the-average-HOFer criteria. I’d say that the 2 that you mentioned along with Rick Ferrell and Red Schoendienst are probably their worst picks in that time frame. Meanwhile the BBWAA is still managing to regularly overlook well-qualified candidates while finding room for the likes of Catfish Hunter, Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter, Jim Rice and very nearly… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Catfish is an interesting case. . Certainly he doesn’t measure up using our current go-to stat of wins above the other guy. He was 17th in WAR on the HOF ballot the year he was elected (in fact, about 12 percent of his WAR came from his hitting). But his name is Catfish, first of all. Finley certainly helped him out with that one. Jim Hunter is probably not a hall of famer. And Hunter was the first free-agent. And he arrived there through a contract dispute (contract nullified by an arbitrator). There’s a key piece of history. And he… Read more »

David P
David P
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Hunter had a HOF Monitor score of 134 which puts him in the “virtual cinch” for the HOF category. He was also elected on a weak ballot with only Santo having more than 65 career WAR. Compare that to last year when there were 14 players with over 65 WAR.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

@97; If you combine Red Schoendienst’s accomplishments as a player and manager (14 yrs w/Cardinals, 1965-1978; won WS in ’67, lost 7-game WS in ’68, also three 2nd-place finishes; overall 1041-955/ .522 W/L%), I think he’s a quite reasonable Veteran’s pick. As just a player, Schoendienst is probably a little less qualified than Ernie Lombardi or Tony Lazzeri, also picked during the last 30 years. I’d say the Ferrell and Rizzuto are the worst Veteran’s picks since 1984. I know that Maz has the worst JAWS score (50th amongst 2Bmen, but he’s got that ‘arguably the best defensively 2Bman of… Read more »

David P
David P
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Lawrence #176 – Except voters aren’t allowed to consider dual accomplishments such as Schoendienst’s. That’s not to say they don’t do it, just that they’re not supposed to.

PP
PP
7 years ago

Killer, Murray, Eck

I assume it’s Killer or Eddie time?

Joseph
Joseph
7 years ago

Vote: Nettles, Campanella, and and and — not sure.

Nettles, Campanella, and Evans.

JamesS
JamesS
7 years ago

Murray, Ashburn, Evans

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
7 years ago

Eck, Ashburn, Ruffing

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 years ago

Murray, Minoso, Killebrew

Steven
Steven
7 years ago

Ashburn, Minoso, Campanella.

JasonZ
7 years ago

Mel Ott took aim at a fence 258 feet away in the Polo Grounds during Klein’s time in the Baker Bowl.

The Babe and Lou had that sweet porch in RF 295 feet away.

Chuck Klein took aim at a fence 280 feet away and 60 feet high.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
7 years ago
Reply to  JasonZ

Chuck Klein’s 9 year peak:

.339 / .396 / .586 / .982 / 149

With his less-than D, that was good for a 4.6 WAR average.

Hartvig
Hartvig
7 years ago
Reply to  JasonZ

Yeah but to be fair for his career on the road Klein’s slugging percentage took over .150 point drop and his batting average was down nearly .070. And that’s without separating his years in Chicago when he actually hit better on the road than at home.

Ott did hit a lot more home runs in the Polo Grounds but because he hit a lot more doubles & triples on the road his slugging percentage only fell off .048 and his batting average actually went up .014.

Andy
Andy
7 years ago

Murray, Brown, Ashburn

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
7 years ago

There are 7 second basemen in history who have more hits than Buddy Myer with a batting average over .300: 3315 / .333 … Collins 3243 / .338 … Nap 2930 / .358 … Hornsby 2880 / .316 … Frisch 2839 / .320 … Gehringer 2724 / .300 … Alomar 2345 / .304 … Herman 2131 / .303 … Buddy Myer . 1836 / .310 … Cano* 1518 / .311 … Jackie Robinson 1508 / .302 … George Grantham 880 // .311 … Johnny Hodapp 630 // .302 … Jose Altuve* 301 // .304 … Duke Kenworthy 196 // .300… Read more »

mosc
mosc
7 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Kruk called, he agrees you should differentiate all hitters into two groups based on his batting line.

T-Bone
T-Bone
7 years ago

Reuschel, Campanella, Ferrell

koma
koma
7 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Eddie Murray, Dennis Eckersley

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
7 years ago

Nettles, Tiant, & Chuck Klein

I can’t separate Murray and Killebrew (I like both of them, but I count 9 1Bs and 4 DHs to 6 3Bs in the COG)… And Nettles is probably something like the 7th or 8th best third baseman. If you like balance, take his home runs + defense…

Paul E
Paul E
7 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

Hub Kid,
Re “I can’t separate Murray and Killebrew”. Since neither one of these guys did a Wes Parker imitation at 1B, let’s go with offensive peak. The tale of the tape:
Killebrew Murray
23-35 AGE 22-34
152 OPS+ 141
1,886 Games 1,975
7,980 PA 8,459
67.8 O-WAR 54.1
.264/.386/.537 .295/.375/.496
7.4/98 RC/Air 6.8/95
7.54 100 Air 7.16
.737 Off Win% .677

Darien
7 years ago

Killebrew, Eckersley, and Klein. And a shout-out to Bump Hadley because come on: Bump Hadley.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
7 years ago

I’ve gotten used to getting a blank screen whenever submitting a reply for the past couple weeks. Tonight, though, has been a complete adventure. Only about half the time has a comment posted on my first attempt. One time a message appeared saying High Heat Stats couldn’t find the page I was looking for and asking if I’d like to search again. On the plus side, Recent Comments have started to update faster – about 15 to 20 minutes now compared to 3 hours a little earlier this evening. Aside from the comments glitches, which started for me before the… Read more »

David P
David P
7 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

I’ve had all the same commenting problems that others have had. Though so far all of my comment have posted. Just to be on the safe side, I’ve taken to highlighting and copying my comments before I hit the submit button.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Not only are my Recent Comments being delayed (and by much more than 3 hours) but now my Recent Posts are being delayed. I found out about the 1904 Part 2 Balloting via a notice on my Facebook page. I then had to go back to HHS and enter the Post title into the search box to access it.

bells
bells
7 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

I’ve faced similar problems in recent weeks and thought it was just my browser. It’s relieving to hear I’m not the only one (though unfortunate for the site). Just in case other people are experiencing this uncertainty, my solution is generally simple (if a bit annoying) – I just open another tab if/when I get the weird blank screen and load HHS main page and then see if my comment has been posted, if not, try again (I can hit the back button on the blank screen to get back to my comment). I was also sometimes copying my comments… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

My comments always (eventually) appear in the articles I post them on, but infrequently under “Recent Comments” (though my last two have).

Also, why do I have to type my name/E-mail every single time I post? I thought that the posting system here ‘remembered’ that info?

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

The recent comments seem to be updating in real time this evening.

I don’t recall having the issue you mentioned, Lawrence. My name and email are always there when I want to submit a comment.

Hartvig
Hartvig
7 years ago

Was the talent deeper then because of fewer teams or worse because of less scouting and segregation? Someone who was outstanding in a few areas but poor in others vs. someone really, really good in some areas and at least adequate in the rest?

For me I only see one that I’m certain belongs but about 10 more that are somewhere on the “maybe” continuum.

Campanella, Ferrell, Minoso

Mo
Mo
7 years ago

Ashburn Reuschel Klein

Stephen
Stephen
7 years ago

Killebrew, Ashburn, Nettles

MJ
MJ
7 years ago

Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown, Red Ruffing. Let’s elect a pitcher this time, eh?

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
7 years ago

Bryan O’Connor says: February 20, 2015 at 9:06 am (Edit) Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals: Brown 43.3 Reuschel 40.6 FerrellW 40.1 Tiant 37.5 Nettles 35.7 Evans 34.9 Eckersley 34.3 Ashburn 33.9 Murray 33.7 Ruffing 33.1 Killebrew 33.0 Winfield 31.1 Minoso 30.6 Klein 26.4 Myer 19.4 Campanella 19.2 Chuck Klein has black ink all over his B-R page, and I support his Hall of Fame candidacy despite what we know about the advantages he got from Baker Bowl and the offensive environment of his era. That said, he’s not particularly close to the CoG. I’ll stick with Brown,… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
7 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Some more info on Klein: Set the NL record for HRs in 1929 at 43. Still holds the NL record for extra base hits in a season, 107(since tied by Bonds Jr), and the second highest, 103. Holds the NL record still for runs scored in a season, 158. That was in 1930, of course, when his 250 hits placed behind Bill Terry’s 254. These are the two highest totals in NL history. Klein’s total bases that year, 445, are second to Hornsby’s 450 in 1922 in NL reckoning. He is the only player other than Lou Gehrig to have… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago

“Does he deserve better than to be dismissed as a mere product of the era and home park he played in?” That depends. Obviously, he was a MUCH-better-than-league-average player. But you CAN make him a COGer by not adjusting for era and park. Actually, I think it’s pretty convincing. He’s 45th in career OPS, which ain’t too shabby at all. Sure, only 7170 PAs – but, unadjusted, he’s Dick Allen, who definitely has his COG supporters. Klein – .922 OPS in 7170 PAs Allen – .912 OPS in 7315 PAs The problem is, Klein is NOT Dick Allen. Allen’s OPS… Read more »

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Klein’s career road splits: .286/.346/.466 for an OPS of .813. Nice, but not elite.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago

@61/nsb; One small correction: Todd Helton is now 2nd all-time for NL extra base hits in a season, 105 in 2001 (as well as 3rd with 103 in 2000). Otherwise, a very good summation of the highlights of Klein’s career. Different eras and offensive contexts, but I’d compare him to Nomar Garciaparra or Don Mattingly – a great start to their career their first 5-6 full years, but not enough value outside of that to make them a truly serious HOF candidate. Since the career isn’t long enough, they are peak candidates, but the peak isn’t _quite_ good enough. BTW,… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
7 years ago

Murray, Ferrell, and Nettles

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago

First update of the round, through Artie Z. @64, the 26th vote: 10 – Eddie Murray 8 – Richie Ashburn, Harmon Killebrew, Graig Nettles 7 – Dennis Eckersley ================25% (7) 6 – Roy Campanella 5 – Kevin Brown 4 – Dwight Evans, Minnie Minoso, Rick Reuschel, Red Ruffing 3 – Wes Ferrell, Chuck Klein ================10% (3) 2 – Luis Tiant, Dave Winfield Oftentimes, when there’s an “open” round like this, someone comes out of nowhere to gain a tremendous amount of momentum. Harmon Killebrew and Eddie Murray were obviously going to be in the mix, but I thought someone else… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

It’s been 10 elections since we elected a pitcher (Ford, 1910.1 ballot), and when he went in he was the first in 9 ballots (Feller, 1917 ballot), so it has been a fallow stretch for pitchers – only 2 elected in the last 23 rounds.

On the other hand, just before the current 2-23 stretch, 5 of 8 electees were pitchers (Roberts, Marichal, Smoltz, Koufax, Spahn).

Hartvig
Hartvig
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Brown would have been another possible candidate, based on past voting records. He had a 14 ballot stretch where he only fell below 13 votes once and got as many as 18. There is a pretty strong ✖ Brown contingent however so that might be his ceiling. Or not. But this is one reason that I think it’s important to have a dozen or more holdovers as often as possible. Sometimes after a couple of guys that have been on the ballot for a while finally get in it turns out that someone you least expected had been a lot… Read more »

Kirk
Kirk
7 years ago

Killebrew, Minoso and Reuschel

brp
brp
7 years ago

Murray to win
K. Brown for 25%
Nettles to stay on the ballot

J.R.
J.R.
7 years ago

Killebrew, Murray, Winfield

bstar
bstar
7 years ago

Murray, Killebrew, Eckersley

billh
billh
7 years ago

Murray, Winfield, Klein

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
7 years ago

Killebrew, Ashburn, and Klein

RonG
RonG
7 years ago

Campanella, Minoso, Tiant

jajacob
jajacob
7 years ago

murray, tiant, nettles

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
7 years ago

Koenig and Martin had oldtimers cards with my 1981-season Strat-O-Matic set.

I’ll sick with the three I’ve done for a while…

EMurray
Killebrew
Minoso

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
7 years ago

Winfield, Miñoso, Evans.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
7 years ago

I’ll take the guys currently in 3rd, 4th, and 5th place.

Vote:

Richie Ashburn
Dennis Eckersley
Graig Nettles

mosc
mosc
7 years ago

Ferrell, Campanella, Nettles

David Horwich
David Horwich
7 years ago

Murray, Nettles, Tiant

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago

For the win: Eddie Murray
Extra cushion round: Saturnino Orestes Armas Minoso
Stay on the COG ballot: Dwight Evans

So I’ve got Minnie, Dewey, and Eddie.

Hartvig
Hartvig
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Unfortunately the only Huey I could find on B-R was James Huey Walkup who was born in 1895 who’s career consisted of 2 games.

So it looks like Dewey (Evans) and Louie (Tiant) will never find their Huey.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
7 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Though they would likely fall short of the COG (not even sure if we’re going back to the 1860s birth years) there are a couple HOFers in Hughie Jennings and Hugh Duffy.

Doug
Doug
7 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Jennings’ 1869 birth year or the year before might be the last (or first) with a COG-eligible player. Monte Cross was born that year and played almost exactly half his career (by Games and PA) in the 20th century (since 1901). Jack McCarthy was also born in 1869 and played most of his career since 1901. Frank Bowerman, born in 1868, played mostly since 1901. Cy Young was born in 1867 and played a bit less than half his career (by Games and IP) in the 20th century. Same story for Kid Gleason, born in 1866. So, Bowerman may be… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

@112 Doug –

I think Cy Young could be considered for the COG. He was born in 1867. The better half of his career was in the 19th century, true… but he had a COG career in the 1900s, even WITHOUT the 1800s counting at all (80 WAR from 1900 forward). He may merit consideration. PLUS, he was voted in by the BBWAA. It would seem odd to me for us to mimic the BBWAA and then not consider a player whom they DID elect.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

birtelcom,
Your post is one of the reasons I’m glad you started giving the rounds a number, rather than just putting the year. I think your solution is a good one: when it gets down to it, judging by the player and his era, not the birth year.
I can’t wait to see what sort of weird system we’ll be using those last few rounds. But we’ll find out in good time, I suppose, but that’s still like almost a year away (40-odd weeks, anyway)!

PaulE
PaulE
7 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Perhaps bottle-bat wielding hughie critz?

David Horwich
David Horwich
7 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

How about Hughie Jennings?

David Horwich
David Horwich
7 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Pardon the redundant post; when I posted last night, this thread was “stuck” on post 104, and didn’t update with the last 20 or so posts until just now, many, many hours later. Hmm.

MikeD
MikeD
7 years ago

Killebrew, Nettles, Ruffing.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago

My unofficial vote tally for Thursday AM, through MikeD @110, the 41st vote: 18 – Eddie Murray 14 – Harmon Killebrew, Graig Nettles =============================25% (11) 10 – Richie Ashburn 9 – Dennis Eckersley, Minnie Minoso 8 – Roy Campanella 6 – Kevin Brown, Dwight Evans 5 – Chuck Klein, Rick Reuschel, Red Ruffing, Luis Tiant, Dave Winfield =============================10% (5) 4 – Wes Ferrell Most votes ever for Richie Ashburn already. Also, Minnie Minoso is polling unusually well. He already has 9 votes, which is what he usually gets for the whole week, and there are five days of voting left.… Read more »

Joseph
Joseph
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I would love to see Nettles make it past 25% to get an extra round. 1903 has some great players, including Gehrig–and I would expect him to get named on nearly all the ballots.

How about with Gehrig, Ruth, Cobb, Speaker, Wagner, Mathewson, Hornsby, Young, Lajoie, and Johnson we just put them in without a vote? It will give the other players a chance.

😉

Okay–I’m joking.

David P
David P
7 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Murray would be cruising to victory if it weren’t for people whose names/initials starts with H, M and S. They’re a baffling 0-12 in voting for Murray, whereas the rest of the group is 19-31.

Weird.

Granted that group has also basically ignored Killer, with only 3 of the 12 voting for him. Five of them have voted for Nettles, who has snuck into 2nd place for now.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
7 years ago
Reply to  David P

Well, as an M voter, my own thought process is not baffling to me. Killer hasn’t gotten my vote because I don’t intend to put him in. In my personal list, he’s out behind enough guys that I doubt I will ever vote for him, except maybe as a strategic decision to put him in and spread out his supporter’s votes. Murray hasn’t gotten my vote mostly due to circumstance he’s closer to my in line — and somebody I would vote to keep on the ballot. But strategically there were always other players under pressure or close to 25%/win… Read more »

David P
David P
7 years ago

Thanks Michael Sullivan! BTW, when I said “baffling”, I meant it in terms of baffling that there’s a correlation between voting patterns and first initial of voters. 🙂

David Horwich
David Horwich
7 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Joseph @ 115 –

I made a similar (and similarly facetious) suggestion some time back, that we simply put everyone with 100+ WAR in the CoG by acclamation, and get on to the real voting. So add Alexander, Collins, and Grove to your list….

Joseph
Joseph
7 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Okay, I’ll go with that, David. Except for those who played after 2000–those whose reputations might be tainted by the PED problem.

Which would leave off B.Bonds, ARod, Clemens, G. Maddux, and R.Johnson.

I’m not saying they should not get in–I’m saying that they should be voted on because some people might have an issue with them.

Mike G.
Mike G.
7 years ago

Brown, Ferrell, Nettles

Jeff B
Jeff B
7 years ago

Killebrew, Murray and Winfield