Circle of Greats 1905 Runoff: Alomar vs. Cronin

We need a quick runoff vote to resolve the tie at the top in the 1905 voting. Voting closes Wednesday Friday night, so vote early. More after the jump.

Roberto Alomar’s career WAR, according to baseball-reference, was 66.8; Joe Cronin’s was a virtual identical 66.4. At Adam Darowski’s Hall of Stats, Alomar’s “Hall Number” is 125; so is Joe Cronin’s. Your decision between these two, born more than 60 years apart, may have to be based on factors other than a simple Wins Above Replacement comparison.

However you decide, your ballot in this runoff round, unlike the usual three-name ballot, should identify just one name, Alomar’s or Cronin’s. You will also need to add at least a little bit of extra verbiage though, because the WordPress engine that supports the site won’t accept comments of only one or two words. This is a short-deadline runoff election. All votes must be in by 11:59PM EST on Wednesday Friday night, February 11 13. If the result of this runoff is still a tie, the tie-breaker will give the win to the candidate who received the most runoff votes immediately before the very last runoff vote cast. So it may not be advisable to wait till the end of the runoff period to cast your vote, because if your vote happens to be the last one cast, your vote may not count for tiebreaker purposes. If you would like to keep track of the vote tally for the runoff, you can check this tally spreadsheet: COG 1905 Runoff Vote Tally.

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Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Since I promised him a vote, it’ll be Cronin for me.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

I vote for Joe Cronin

brp
brp
9 years ago

Voting for Alomar

bstar
bstar
9 years ago

Cronin’s managing would be my tiebreaker in a vacuum, but Robbie’s just been on the ballot much longer.

VOTE: Alomar

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago

Cronin. The bottom of his Wikipedia page has:

Boston Red Sox Hall of Fame
Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame
List of major league players with 2,000 hits
List of Major League Baseball players with 400 doubles
List of Major League Baseball players with 100 triples
List of Major League Baseball players with 1000 runs
List of Major League Baseball players with 1000 RBI
List of Major League Baseball doubles champions
List of Major League Baseball triples champions
List of Major League Baseball player–managers
Hitting for the cycle

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

The following players have achieved the stats below:

2000+ hits
500+ doubles
100+ triples
1000+ R
1000+ RBI
Hit for the cycle
Led his league in seasonal doubles or triples at least once

Joe Cronin
Charlie Gehringer
Paul Molitor
Stan Musial
George Brett
Robin Yount
Lou Gehrig
Joe Medwick

Eric E
Eric E
9 years ago

I’ve got to go (narrowly) with Cronin.

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

OPS+ and peak WAR not much help. BA? Virtual tie.

I’m going to go with bstar and vote for Alomar because he’s been on the ballot for so long. Cronin will have at least a few more shots.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Alomar. He’s been on the ballot long enough.

*****

This is the 3rd runoff election. Previous occurrences:

1941 election, Ryan and Rose. Rose’s first appearance on the ballot. They tied at 26 in the regular election, Ryan won the runoff, 33-31. Rose made the CoG two ballots later.

1924 election, Smoltz and Snider. Tied at 27 in the regular election, Smoltz won the runoff 33-32. Snider was elected on the next ballot.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Joe Cronin..and here’s some extra verbiage.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Vote:

Alomar.

Because then we get to talk about Cronin for at least another week.
Whereas the Alomar convo has petered out to random Mets’ fan tourettes.

billh
billh
9 years ago

Alomar (Roberto, not Sandy).

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  billh

and not the other Sandy.

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago

Joe Cronin. (And strictly on merits — no Mets-ism involved.) Interesting park-effects schism for Cronin, his career split between Griffith Stadium and Fenway. — From 1929-34, he hit 39 of his 51 HRs on the road, the highest percentage among those with 50+ HRs those years. — Then, from 1937-41, he hit 58 of 94 at home (and at least 16 HRs each year), 3rd-highest rate among those with 80+ HRs. The most interesting part is in between, his 1935-36 years in Boston. Cronin totaled just 11 HRs in those years. He did miss some time in ’36, but still,… Read more »

bstar
bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

John, I don’t know what it was specifically, but Cronin was really hobbling his first few years in Boston. Apparently he had to go down on one knee to field every groundball, which infuriated some of the hotheads on the Sox staff. You can’t really see it in his Total Zone numbers, but DRA paints a picture of a guy too injured to be playing short his first few years in Boston: Cronin DRA fielding runs 1930 +14 (WASHINGTON) 1931 +45 1932 +24 1933 +15 1934 +26 —- 1935 -22 (BOSTON) 1936 -2 1937 -26 —- 1938 +10 1939 -11… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Excellent work there, bstar! However … you knew I’d have a “however” … Cronin did hit 14 triples in ’35, first by 5 among BoSox, also led them in XBH by 13. His power was more off in ’36, but he also broke his thumb that year, and missed about half the year. So I’m not sure the D stats really tie in with his modest HR total.

David P
David P
9 years ago

They’re both qualified and will go in. But Robbie’s been on the ballot way too long. Voting for Cronin makes 0 sense.

In case that’s not clear enough…Alomar.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Even if someone thinks they’re both equally well qualified I can think of a couple of reasons they might want to vote for Cronin over Alomar 1) In a few more rounds Alomar will overtake Biggio as the all time #1 voter getter on Dr. Doom’s list 2) If Cronin doesn’t get in prior to the upcoming 1903 ballot he has only 3 rounds (as of this moment) of accrued eligibility to see him thru vs. 6 for Alomar. I don’t know that either reason is a particularly good one but if you’re down to a coin toss… I also… Read more »

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

I’m supporting Alomar.

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago

Joe Cronin. Not the greatest executive, but a great shortstop.

Stubby
9 years ago

Cronin. Alomar didn’t just suck in New York; he dogged it. I won’t vote for anybody who got their millions and then slept-walked through the remainder of their career. Alomar hit .266 at the age of 34. At age 34, Cronin hit .311, was an All-Star and got some MVP votes as well. I just don’t see a case to be made for Alomar. I don’t. Sure, he’s gonna get in. But he shouldn’t. Sorry there seems to be an anti-Mets fan bias among some. But we saw Robbie for what he was. And wasn’t. He wasn’t HOF worthy. He… Read more »

Mo
Mo
9 years ago

Joe Cronin.

Why is there a requirement for a post longer than 2 words?

Artie Z
Artie Z
9 years ago

I’ve voted for Alomar a lot, so Alomar.

PaulE
PaulE
9 years ago

Splitting hairs and going with the better base runner, Roberto Alomar

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

I’ll go with Alomar

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Votin for Cronin

RonG
RonG
9 years ago

I vote for Roberto Alomar.

opal611
opal611
9 years ago

If my count is correct, I’ve been voting to keep Alomar on the ballot for over two years and have voted for him 39 times (including a few that were “unofficial” because I joined up late).

So I will vote for ALOMAR again and hope to keep it at a good round number of 40 votes.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

I’ve been an Alomar supporter, so I vote for him.

Stephen
Stephen
9 years ago

I will vote for Joe Cronin

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
9 years ago

I’ll go with Alomar.

Both had near equal value for their careers, Alomar had more longevity and Cronin more peak. Would like more dialogue about Cronin’s on-the-field exploits – not very interested in his managerial/executive roles.

bstar
bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

Dave, I guess I bring up his managing because I think he would have put up better numbers had he not been tasked with running the club on the field also, especially at such a young age. So it’s not so much credit for being manager per se as it a belief that he would have been a slightly better player without it. Maybe, maybe not. That, and I think he would have stayed a regular a couple years longer had he not been performing other duties. His numbers right before he basically relegated himself to pinch-hitting duties support that… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Managing didn’t slow Fred Clarke down! ‘Course, there were fewer pitching changes back in 1911… 🙂

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago

Roberto Alomar.

When I was a youngster, he was one of my favorites. Glad to see him elected to the Hall of Fame, and I truly think he belongs in the Circle of Greats.

I honestly don´t understand all the Mets fans´ bitterness against him.

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Luis, that’s all it is, a bit of bitterness. Most Mets fans agree that Roberto is a Hall of Famer. It’s just … He’d been so good, for so long, every blessed year. We’d see him on TV every October, hitting .313 in the postseason, slashing doubles, stealing bases and base hits. We wanted to see this special player in our lineup. And then we get him — “YAYYY!!!” — and … nothing. How did he go from .336-20-100-30 steals to replacement-level, overnight? It’s just a bummer. Some Mets fans still take it personally. I don’t, not really — I… Read more »

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Kind of when Brian Giles was acquired by the Padres. An elite player the previous few years who forgot how hit homeruns. Well, at least he had some decent seasons in San Diego.

And speaking of San Diego…wow… Impresionante pretemporada!

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

¡De acuerdo, muchos fichajes interesantes! I’m looking forward to seeing how it all works out.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

RJ, I´m taking my family to a Giants pre-season game in AT&T Park next month, can you give me some advice regarding parking, freeways, sightseeing or something?

Thanks!

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Luis: Unfortunately I’m not local. It’s been a few years since I was last in the Bay Area, and whenever I did go to the ballpark it was on the train, so I don’t know a whole lot about the parking situation. There’s some travel info on the Giants website: http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/sf/ballpark/directions/index.jsp There’s also a collection of frequently asked questions about visiting the ballpark here: http://www.reddit.com/r/SFGiants/comments/u40jk/we_get_this_questions_a_lot_so_lets_try_a_faq_att/ I don’t know if you use reddit, but the Giants section (www.reddit.com/r/SFGiants) is really friendly and full of people who actually live in San Francisco who can probably give you better advice than me! One… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

@98

Luis: I live in the SF suburbs but I haven’t gone to AT&T park yet, mainly because the Yankees haven’t payed there while I have been living in the area. There is much sightseeing to do: Fisherman’s Wharf, Alcatraz, the Exploratorium, museums, Chinatown, theaters, etc. Visitor guides are readily available. When I am in the area I like to eat lunch at Lefty O’Doul’s restaurant in the downtown area.

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

@RC: And here I imagined you living somewhere inside Yankee Stadium!

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

RJ & RC, that is a lot of help, thank you guys. We´ve never been in San Francisco before, so all the info we had regarding sightseeing and stuff, comes from web sites. I just wanted to know first hand from baseball junkies like me, what places to visit during our stay. RJ, I kind of remember that you live abroad, just wasn´t sure if you were formerly living there. Richard, it´s hard to imagine a baseball lover (and you must be one to read sites like this) living near a major league stadium and never going to games there,… Read more »

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

¡Feliz cumpleaños Luis!

When I first started commenting on HHS I was living in Spain, and on my first day there I accidentally wished a friend of a friend “feliz navidad” instead of “feliz cumpleaños”. My Spanish has got very rusty since I moved back to the UK, but it’s improved from that low point. (Incidentally I recently discovered baseball-reference’s Spanish baseball dictionary, which I’ve bookmarked for future reference: http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/English_to_Spanish.pdf)

My Giants fandom comes from spending my summers in San Francisco every year from 2003-2009. My Dad still lives out there.

Stubby
9 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Bitterness, nothing. Can you tell the difference, in watching a player day in day out, between a player whose skill has eroded due to age and a player who just doesn’t give a damn anymore? I can. Alomar completely dogged it when he came to New York. He put forth ZERO effort. He didn’t care anymore. And why should he? He had his millions. I never saw Cronin play, but his numbers tell me he gave his all to the end. Alomar, not so much. The truly great give all they have to give even when there’s nothing left in… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Stubby

Stubby, you speak with clarity and passion and i can’t argue with what you saw. But how can we really reduce another man’s intentions that assuredly? His Dad, who played the same position, was done at 34. Very likely some aspect of relevance in there, either genetically or psychologically. Or maybe you’re right, and he did just lose the passion for it after being traded. He’d moved around. But at 33 maybe he didnt want to be told to move to New York. He’d played with his brother in Cleveland. And he’s just won a division title with Lofton, Thome,… Read more »

Daniel Longmire
Daniel Longmire
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo, I think that you’re right in saying that Alomar was just worn down by the time he got to the Mets. His style of play, both offensively and defensively, would take a physical toll on anyone. I’m not sure why Stubby is so harsh on him in particular; he’s 3rd all-time in games at second base! Oh, and you may be mistaken about the timing of the “historically good defensive infield”. Were you thinking of the 2000 Cleveland team, who committed only 72 errors? Or perhaps you were conflating them with the ’99 Mets, who had just 68 gaffes… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
9 years ago

Daniel Longmire:
I guess he’s speaking of Vizquel, Fryman, and Thome?
Nice job by Charlie Manual, once again, of taking a great team……Ah, why be negative?

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Stubby

Everyone’s free to interpret what he saw from Alomar with the Mets. But thinking that “he didn’t care” because “he had his millions” … I cannot find the logic there. Before his last year in Cleveland, Alomar had earned $53 million, and was already guaranteed $23 million more. He played great that year. It’s hard to imagine .336-20-100, 30 steals, without a mighty effort. His contract status didn’t change when he joined the Mets. Why would his motivation have been different? Why do you think he tried in ’01, but not in ’02? Alomar would hit free agency again after… Read more »

Stubby
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

You forget the endorsement deals Alomar garnered in New York, where he made far more money than he ever could in Cleveland or Toronto. Willie Mays was fairly pedestrian–godawful at times–when he returned to New York. But he never ever gave me the impression he wasn’t giving it his all every time he was on the field. Alomar just didn’t–offensively or defensively. He gave every appearance of somebody who just didn’t give a crap. I think even Richie Hebner put forth a better effort in New York. The “sprained eyelid” comment had to do with Chris Brown who had a… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  Stubby

@63, I sincerely doubt that you can somehow divine whether a player is not putting forth their full effort, or is simply declining because they are getter older. I’ve heard this sort of comment innumerable times in my time as a sports fan, but unless a MLB player does something obvious like not running out a ground ball or going after a fly ball, who can really tell if they are not putting forth the effort?? All MLB players decline as they get older, but some do it very gradually, while others do it quite dramatically, often falling off the… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Agreed Lawrence! We could just as easily say the same about George Foster for example. He was coming off a 150 OPS+, 3rd place MVP finish when he joined the Mets. His first two years, he put up OPS+ of 90 and 95. And he was a year younger than Alomar when he joined the Mets. Or how about Jason Bay, coming off an age 30 season of OPS+ 134 and 7th place MVP finish. Joins the Mets and promptly puts up seasons of OPS+ 105, 97 and 48. Those are just a few examples from the Mets. I’m sure… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

I think it’s good that we keep in mind that we are not only talking about real people but real people who might actually read and respond to what we have to say (as in the case of Schilling & Lou Boudreau’s son). I also love that this sight is almost entirely free of the juvenile name calling and trolling that you find on so many sports related sights. I actually found my way here in part because on another sight I was frequenting someone actually threatened to kill another commenter and nothing was done about it. All that said,… Read more »

bstar
bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Hartvig, Lou Boudreau’s son? Do you remember which thread he commented on?

ALSO: Dick Radatz’s son stopped by a couple times.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

@104:

George McQuinn’s father-in-law contributed some meaningful comments,

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

bstar- No I don’t but I wasn’t involved with him on the conversation thread either. It’s even possible it may have even taken place on Dugout Central way back when it was affiliated with Baseball Reference altho my memory says it was more recent than that.

Once my brain files stuff away in long-term storage I have a hell of a time keeping the chronology straight unless that’s an important factor.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

@105 – RC,

“George McQuinn’s father-in-law” ???

Seriously? McQuinn married in 1937, so you’d have to think his father-in-law would at least 120 years old or so.

Incidentally, McQuinn’s Irish-Canadian wife is credited in his SABR Bio with talking McQuinn out of retiring during his awful 1946 season. The Yankees were sure glad she did.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

@108

This is what happens when I rush. It was his son-in-law. I realized it after I left my house to run some errands.

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Funny. I voted for Cronin but not Alomar in the regular election but I’m voting for Alomar in the tie break because 1) I think Cronin will get in soon anyway and 2) I supported Biggio for soooo long I was taking it personally every time he missed out. Gotta give some love to those fighting the same fight for Alomar.

jajacob
jajacob
9 years ago

Roberto Alomar not Clemente he’s already in

Jeff B
Jeff B
9 years ago

Cronin

Seems like the COG has a soft spot for 2B, Whitaker, Grich, Biggio, and now Alomar all are not worthy of the lofty circle. At least IMHO.

koma
koma
9 years ago

I vote for Roberto Alomar.

Owen
Owen
9 years ago

Roberto Alomar.

Steve
Steve
9 years ago

Cronin – Roberto had he retired after 2001

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
9 years ago

My vote goes to Joe Cronin.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago

Vote: Roberto Alomar

I think that like Biggio, he is near the COG borderline, but Alomar has been on the bubble long enough.

Also, it seems like it has been a while since we added a 2nd baseman.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

Actually, we elected Joe Gordon 7 elections, so not that far back.

Mike G.
Mike G.
9 years ago

My vote is for Cronin

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

My vote is for Cronin

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Sigh. Can’t believe I have to choose between the 7th and 8th best players on my ballot. Gotta go with Cronin, I guess.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

Remember when we had too few second basemen in the circle? Yeah, been a while.

Man, I feel personally responsible for this runoff election. I was stalking the last vote and was too busy Saturday night to do it.

Is anyone going to make an actual argument that Cronin isn’t the better player? Anybody?

Cronin. For shame y’all (and by that I mean mostly me).

TJay
TJay
9 years ago

Cronin. He probably spit more than Alomar but had better (or worse?)aim.

Kirk
Kirk
9 years ago

Vote for Alomar

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

When there’s a tie in the regular round, it’s probably because we, as a body, think that the two players are really close. So this doesn’t surprise me. As it’s been pointed out above, the other tiebreakers were two votes and one, respectively. I expect more of the same this time ’round.

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
9 years ago

Joe Cronin. A virtual toss-up, so I’ll take the SS over the 2B.

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago

Vote for Roberto Alomar

William
William
9 years ago

I go for Joe. Cronin is in

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
9 years ago

1 vote for Alomar.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Alomar was great through age 33, then was not.
That had to stink for him.

Here are his counting numbers through age 33:

1341 Runs
2389 Hits
446 .2B
72 ..3B
190 .HR
1018 RBI
446 .SB
.306 BA

What other Second Basemen through age 33?
(Since 1893)

1300+ Runs
2300+ Hits
150+ .HR
400+ .SB

Only Alomar.
______

.300 BA
400 .2B
70 ..3B
1000 RBI

Nap Lajoie
Rogers Hornsby
Charlie Gehringer

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

2300+ Hits
400 + SB

Only Alomar
___________

1300+ Runs
1000+ RBI

Alomar and Hornsby
___________

.300+ BA
150+ HR

Alomar, Hornsby, Cano
___________

Shard
Shard
9 years ago

I’ve been voting for Alomar since I found HHS. One more vote for Roberto Alomar.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Birtelcom notes how similar Cronin’s and Alomar’s WAR are. They’re neck-and-neck in WAA too, once we adjust for Alomar’s late career slide. Amazingly, they have identical Rbats (242) as well. Alomar picks up almost six wins in baserunning, but gives them all back through Rfield and the positional adjustment. While I prefer to trust the numbers over reputation, Alomar was regarded as a great defensive second baseman, so it’s possible that the truth lies somewhere between his -38 Rfield and his 10 Gold Gloves. I’ll give him enough of an upward adjustment from there to offset Cronin’s having produced similar… Read more »

Low T
Low T
9 years ago

I opened this thread with the idea of voting for Alomar. After reading, I’ve changed my mind.

Cronin.