Circle of Greats 1902 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 88th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1902. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1902-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1902-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, March 22nd, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Friday, March 20th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1902 Vote Tally .  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1902 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The fourteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1902 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Charlie Gehringer (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Carl Hubbell (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Mickey Cochrane (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Paul Waner (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield
(eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1902, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Al Simmons
Moe Berg
Earl Averill
Charlie Berry
Al Todd
Jake Flowers
Johnny Moore

Pitchers (born in 1902, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Red Lucas
Ray Benge
Watty Clark
Bill Hallahan
Ben Cantwell
Pat Malone

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Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Off the top of my head (and therefore subject to change), I’m going with:

Charlie Gehringer
Al Simmons
Kevin Brown

Al Simmons is, of course, the greatest ballplayer from my hometown of Milwaukee, so I feel obligated to vote for him.

RonG
RonG
8 years ago

Campanella, Cochrane, Simmons

Darien
8 years ago

Charlie Gehringer, the only player so awesome they named Lou Gehrig after him.
Harmon Killebrew, the only player so awesome they named beer *and* killing after him.
Paul Waner, the only player so awesome they named an 80’s metal band after him. Except for every Damn Yankee ever. And also an honorable mention to John Rocker.

Andy
Andy
8 years ago

gehringer
Simmons
Killer

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
8 years ago

Gehringer, Brown, Waner

David P
David P
8 years ago

WAR from ages 27-36:

Earl Averill: 47.9
Al Simmons: 45.0

Both were basically done at the age of 36. The big difference between the two is that Simmons got an earlier start to his career. Averill was born in Washington and started his career in the PCL and his team was reluctant to sell his contract to a MLB team.

John Autin
Editor
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

David P — I know you didn’t say that Averill deserves extra credit on his career evaluation due to that late start. But just to get out front of any implication, I don’t think it would be fair to give him an adjustment unless we do the same for many others in the same situation. Averill started in MLB at 27, not because he was imprisoned in the minors for a long time, but largely by choice. As far as I can tell, his 3 years in the PCL were his only time in organized ball before the majors. Three… Read more »

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

John – I was writing a reply to your comment but accidentally closed the window before I was done. The abridged version is that I don`t disagree with what you wrote. Seems like Averill experienced some health problems as an adolescent and gave up baseball for several years. Later, after several years of semi-pro ball, he failed his first PCL tryout. A later semi-pro manager tweaked his swing which is when his career took off. BTW, a few interesting facts about Averill: 1) He was the first AL player to hit a homerun in his first MLB at bat. 2)… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

According to the BR Play Index 11 players have had at 60+ hits in a month: Cobb, Speaker, Sisler, Traynor, Hornsby, Klein, Manush, Averill, Gee Walker, Bob Johnson and Billy Herman. Sisler did it 3 times and Hornsby and Speaker did it twice.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago

Gehringer (August 1937) and Al Simmons (1925) had 59 hits in a month, though technically 5 of Simmons’ 59 hits in September/October came in October. The only players with 55+ hits in a month since 1950 are Ichiro (56, August 2004), Boggs (56, Sept/Oct 1985), Ripken (55, Sept/Oct 1983), Rose (55, August 1968), and Aaron (55, August 1958). For whatever reason (weather, season schedule, make up games, etc.) it is a 2nd half phenomenon. There are 252 seasons since 1914 in which a player has gotten 50+ hits in a month: April/March – one player (Dante Bichette, 1998) May –… Read more »

bstar
8 years ago

Interesting. Minor correction due to B-R lumping Sept/Oct stats together: Sisler’s 1920 and Hornsby’s 1922 September totals include hits from games in October, which they needed to get over the 60 mark. So it has been done 13 times by 11 players with Sisler and Speaker pulling the trick twice.

The closest any player has come to 60 hits in a month since 1948 is Ichiro with 56 hits in August of 2004.

bstar
8 years ago

Artie: I think we had the same P-I search pulled up at the same time.

I think the second-half phenomenon is likely due to more doubleheaders after the break, both scheduled and from rainouts in the first half. That, and better hitting as the weather warms up.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

Number of players with 35+ games in the following months:

March/April…0
May………..2
June……….3
July………97
August……119
Sept/Oct….236

bstar is right about the prevalence of make-up games in the second half. The Split Finder can be used to determine how well the ML batted in each half. For 38 seasons BA were higher in the first half, for 40 seasons BA were higher in the second half and for 23 seasons the BA were equal.

paget
paget
8 years ago

Doug/birtelcom,

I’m a believer in Richie Ashburn, so I guess take this with a grain of salt, but I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask for some kind of special dispensation on his behalf. It seems like there was some authentic confusion over time zones/time changes last round and the last two voters had Ashburn on their ballots. It doesn’t seem exactly in the spirit of fairness that he should fall off the ballot for a snafu of this kind.

Anyway, just had to ask.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  paget

Technically, I’m pretty sure that any such special dispensation would have to also return a round of eligibility to Luis Tiant and restore Dwight Evans to the ballot, as well. I’m basically agnostic on this point – I just want to note that, if we WERE to give such treatment to Ashburn, it would only truly be “fair” if we also treated the others who received late votes with that same courtesy.

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago
Reply to  paget

The way I see it, the voting was open for more than a week, and the deadline was clearly stated in the instructions. Everyone had plenty of time to vote, and if anyone was unsure of the actual deadline they had ample opportunity to ask for clarification. I mean, this site may have its own clock off by an hour, but we’re all capable of checking the actual time, right? And waiting until the last minute to vote is a choice a voter makes. If people don’t want to take a chance of missing the deadline – vote earlier. This… Read more »

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
8 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Yeah, I put my vote in under the deadline but something happened such that it didn’t take — when I discovered that, it was too late, but I threw it out there anyway just in case.

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

I agree 100% with David Horwich.

Beyond that, Ashburn stands a very good chance of being returned to the ballot via the next redemption round (which should be coming up in about 3-4 rounds). If he were on the current ballot, his chances of being elected prior to the next redemption round are 0. So not sure it really matters whether or not he’s currently on the ballot.

paget
paget
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

What you say makes sense, of course. For my part, though, as time has gone on in this process I have found myself increasingly invested in vote totals. I’m not sure if this will resonate with anyone else, but as we get closer to the conclusion of this process, I find that what I’m most interested in is ascertaining a sense of, say, the top 20 or so players who *don’t* make it in to the CoG. (Which means that Dr. Doom’s recaps, to me, have gone from being simply a curiousity to being totally fundamental to my enjoyment of… Read more »

bells
bells
8 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Yeah, it’s crazy that three votes were late! I don’t think that’s ever happened more than once in a round. For me, I was just out for the evening, came back, was hanging out and thought ‘shoot I forgot to vote; oh well I still have a couple of hours’ because for some reason I thought the deadline had been changed last year to be Pacific time (did I dream that up? Did it actually happen for a few rounds?) I went to the thread, saw my mistake, and wanted to note my preferences in a comment anyway. Even though… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
8 years ago
Reply to  bells

When birtelcom was gone and Doug took over, he changed the deadline to Midnight Pacific for the interim (and also split the two-ballots-this-year ballots differently).

I also seem remember some birtelcom rounds ending on Pacific time.

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago
Reply to  paget

Agree there was some confusion, but extending the vote one hour would have not just saved Ashburn. @189 and @190 would have saved Ashburn and Evans, and prevented Campanella and Tiant from losing a round. @193 with additional support for Ashburn and Campanella was around 1:30 AM (12:30 according to the site), and seemingly too late by either criteria. @193 would also have knocked Reuschel down a round, which doesn’t seem very fair to his supporters either. In a round such as this, it might be said that waiting for the very last hour to cast one’s vote was a… Read more »

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

My comment is pretty much in line with Dr. Doom’s but took me longer to type. I second David Horwich/David P.’s observations above as well.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

I basically agree with all Davis & David’s… which is fitting, since I, TOO, am a David. Although, with as many as we have on this site, I’m glad I use a pseudonym. 🙂

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
8 years ago
Reply to  paget

I am not sure that being on the ballot when there is little chance to even win extra rounds of eligibility is actually very helpful until more of the backlog is cleared.

On the other hand, I personally wouldn’t argue with a timestamp. If you weren’t there at the time and went back and looked at it, the record looks clear tht those votes were on time, even if that record is actually wrong.

paget
paget
8 years ago
Reply to  paget

Sorry guys and girls, I didn’t mean to give the impression that I was pulling for a dispensation for Ashburn at the expense of others who would have benefited. It’s that Ashburn is the only player who fell off who I firmly believe belongs, and so it was his situation that presented itself to my attention. Obviously, whatever we do (if anything) for him, we should do for other players who would have benefited from those last, uncounted votes.

Darien
8 years ago
Reply to  paget

As always, I’m against any special exceptions to the rules. I’ve missed the cutoff with my own voting more than once before, which is unfortunate, but, as David says, the solution is for me not to wait until the last minute to vote.

bstar
8 years ago
Reply to  Darien

These are my thoughts exactly. You get burned if you play with fire. I missed a vote one time because it simply slipped my mind. It happens.

mosc
mosc
8 years ago
Reply to  Darien

I did it too once. Lead to a runoff between Alomar and Cronin when I would have kept Alomar from winning. He still may not be in if I hadn’t messed that up.

MJ
MJ
8 years ago

Charlie Gehringer, Rick Reuschel, Paul Waner

RJ
RJ
8 years ago

Moe Berg had a fascinating life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_Berg

KalineCountry
KalineCountry
8 years ago

Charlie Gehringer
Al Simmons
Paul Waner

Andy
Andy
8 years ago

Gehringer, Hubbell, Simmons

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
8 years ago

Charlie Gehringer
Al Simmons
Mickey Cochrane

koma
koma
8 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Minnie Minoso

Steven
Steven
8 years ago

Gehringer, Simmons, Cochrane.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Most Wins, first 3 seasons, since 1920:

60 … PAT MALONE
58 … Dave Ferriss
58 … Dwight Gooden
57 … Tom Seaver
56 … Don Newcombe

First 4 Seasons:

76 … PAT MALONE
75 … Tom Seaver
74 … Ray Kremer
74 … George Earnshaw
73 … Larry Jansen
73 … Dwight Gooden

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Highest WAR in a season with a winning percentage less than .150, minimum 15 losses:

1.2 … BEN CANTWELL (4-25)
1.2 … Don Larsen (3-21)
1.0 … Matt Keough (2-17)
0.6 … Jack Nabors (1-20 … 1-25 for his career)
0.6 … Kent Peterson (2-15)
0.5 … Art Houtteman (2-16)
0.5 … Ken Reynolds (2-15)

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

BILL HALLAHAN once led the league in Wins and Strikeouts… and walks, and wild pitches……….. And yes, his nickname was Wild Bill.

He was also a World Series hero.
Two complete games in the 1931 WS – a shutout and a one-run.
Also the one out Save in Game 7.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

RED LUCAS had 14.1 WAR as a batter.
He does not appear in a search for best hitting pitchers, however.
Not with the 50 percent at-position standard.

This is due to a lot of pinch hitting appearances (and a few games as a middle infielder). Lowering the standard to 42 percent, here are the leaders:

15.0 … Ruffing
14.1 … LUCAS
13.3 … Mullin
13.3 … Big Train
12.8 … Ferrell

JamesS
JamesS
8 years ago

Hubbell, Cochrane, Simmons

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Al Simmons numbers were beastly.
Check out the difference in OPS and the similarity in OPS+ between Simmons and Wade Boggs. Speaks to the offensive era that Aloysius thrived in:

.334 / .380 / .535 / .915 / 133
.328 / .415 / .443 / .858 / 131

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

To go even MORE extreme, compare Simmons to Joe Morgan:

.271 / .392 / .427 / .819 / 132

100 points of OPS… 1 point of OPS+!!!

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

1. Albert Pujols. Also had 99+ in his first 12 seasons.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

12. I’m pretty sure it’s Dick Ellsworth and Larry Jackson in 1963 & 1964.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

10. This would be, I believe, the AMAZINGLY named Kaiser Wilhelm and his 3-23 record (.115) in 1905.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

After that debacle (4.53 ERA, 68 ERA+), Wilhelm spent the next two years in the Southern Association before returning the bigs in 1908 at age 34. Now with Brooklyn, Wilhelm logged 332 IP with a 1.87 ERA (124 ERA+), but still could do no better than a 16-22 record (tied with Harry Howell of the 1905 Browns for most losses in a 120 ERA+ season with ERA under 2.00). Wilhelm was chosen to manage the Phillies after Bill Donovan left halfway through the 1921 season to appear in the Black Sox legal proceedings. That year, the 47 year-old Wilhelm made… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

It looks like the first two of those four appearances were while Donovan was still Manager.

And Donovan wasn’t fired exactly. He went on leave to be a witness in the Black Sox scandal. Then formally let go later.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Additional tidbit:
Charlie Berry is the only person to officiate in a WS and an NFL title game in the same year, and possibly ever. In 1958 he umped in the WS and was head linesman in the Colts-Giants title game.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

11. Whitey Kurowski with 925 hits.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Sharp as ever, Dr. Doom and RC. All answers are correct.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

13. I came up with Ted Kubiak.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

5. If I’m reading your question correctly, Doug, the active and retired pitchers with the best ERA as World Series starters in 30+ IP are Madison Bumgarner and Babe Ruth. Taking Bumgarner’s five inning Game 7 save against the Royals out of the equation leaves him with a 0.29 ERA in 31 IP as a WS starter. Ruth only appeared as a starter in the World Series, throwing an identical 31 innings and giving up three earned runs (to Bumgarner’s one) for an ERA of 0.87. Harry Brecheen fell just short of the threshold, with 29 of his 32-2/3 WS… Read more »

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

You’ve got it, Scary.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

6. Pedro Astacio with 209-1/3 IP an a 6.23 ERA for the 1998 Rockies.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

10. Charlie Berry question (Dr. Doom’s answer @ 37 seems to be for #9 – Ben Cantwell):

If at least 60 of Pinch Thomas’ 66 games for the 1914 Red Sox came as a catcher, then he had four seasons catching at least 60 games for the Bosox, splitting time behind the plate through 1916 with Manager Bill Carrigan.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Right on both counts (50 and 51).

Pinch Thomas caught 64, 82, 90 and 77 games for the BoSox for 1914-17.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

4. Earl Averill question: Jackie Robinson?

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Robinson is the one. Particularly impressive for only a 10 season career.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

3. Apparently Jeff Mathis can play some defense, so it’s not him. I feel no shame in having to search and find … Chad Moeller, who had -3.6 WAR in 1539 PAs. I don’t know Chad Moeller, and no disrespect meant, but I’m going to take the under on number of languages known when comparing him to Berg. Berg’s triple slash line is .243/.278/.299. There were 18 catchers with 1500 PAs who played before Berg who had worse numbers in all 3 categories (and all of them finished playing before Berg started, except Gabby Street, who had one PA at… Read more »

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

You wouldn’t know it from this game.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI196905310.shtml

One homered and later walked and scored, and the other went 3 for 5 with a double.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Small sample size 🙂

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

The joke going around the AL was that Berg could speak a dozen languages but couldn’t hit in any of them.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

2. Ted Lyons. He finished with a flourish completing his last 28 starts,

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
8 years ago

@108,

Lyons was a “Sunday pitcher” in 1942, making all 20 of his starts on that day. Advantages:
– it helped stabilize the rotation, with the large number of doubleheaders on Sundays
– it gave him extra rest, which at age 38/39 he certainly could use

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

8. Manny Sanguillen comes to mind as the most likely answer to the Al Todd question. 2nd choice would be Jason Kendall.

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Speaking of Sanguillen, I can’t figure out his final two years with the Pirates. He got a grand total of 133 PAs combined in those two seasons with 80 of them as a pinch hitter. He played a little first and very little catcher. It doesn’t appear he was hurt either year, they just had him sitting on the bench doing nothing other than the very occasional pinch hitting. Which begs the question…why would you have a 35-36 year old Manny Sanguillen on your roster as a pinch hitter? It’s not like he was a good hitter earlier in his… Read more »

bstar
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

A lot of teams had a primary pinch hitter from each side of the plate in those days. And consider the offensive currency of the times, which was mainly batting average. Manny was a good, if not very good, hitter for average. Thru age 35, Sanguillen was a lifetime .298 hitter. He had three seasons finishing in the top 10 in BA in the NL, four over .300, and his worst year’s BA with the Pirates was .275. Especially with men on, singles hitters who rarely strike out are good choices for pinch hitting because the value of a single… Read more »

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

Bstar – Fair point re: Sanguillen’s batting average though it was in decline at that point. And he wasn’t used exclusively as a pinch htter against lefties (49 of his 133 PAs came against righties), which was actually a good thing since he showed an extreme reverse platoon split those two seasons. As for teams carrying righty and lefty pinch hitters, that may be true but they weren’t exclusive pinch hitters the way Sanguillen and Easler were. In 1979 and 1980, there were 23 instances of a player having between 50-100 PAs with PAs being less than 1.5x Games Played.… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

In the searchable era, form 1940 on, there have been 21 players with at least 20 PA in a season, all as a PH. Smoky Burgess leads the way with 76 PA in 1967.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

The answer to the last remaining quiz question (7. Watty Clark) is the recently-deceased Bill Monbouquette.

Joseph
Joseph
8 years ago

Nettles, Waner, Tiant. All votes for just keeping players on the ballot for the next one or two.

PaulE
PaulE
8 years ago

Cochrane, Winfield, Waner

JEV
JEV
8 years ago

Hubbell. Campanella, Averill

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
8 years ago

So I can just vote for Moe Berg three times, right?

No? Fine, then can I vote for him four times?

David P
David P
8 years ago

Gehringer for the win, Tiant and Nettles to stay on the ballot, plus a non-vote shout out to Earl Averill who as I’ve noted above had a prime that was just as good as Al Simmons, but has zero chance of being elected due to his late career start.

David P
David P
8 years ago

Haven’t seen this mentioned but yesterday Al Rosen – the 1953 MVP winner – passed away at age 91.

Rosen, incredibly, is the last Indian to win the MVP. Since then only two Indians have finished as high as second. Larry Doby, in 1954, 20 points behind Yogi Berra and Albert Belle in 1995, 8 points behind Mo Vaughn.

RIP Mr. Rosen.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

Rosen was one of the great “what if” stories. Three years lost to WW2 then 4 more stuck tearing it up in the minors behind Ken Keltner and finally back problems and other assorted injuries sapping his effectiveness and ending his career far to early.

If things had worked out a little differently he could easily have been the player that Eddie Mathews would have had to try to supplant as the games all-time greatest third baseman.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Not to mention the oft-discussed fear of flying. That certainly made a big leaguer’s life a lot harder in the 1950s than it would’ve been 20 years earlier.

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Doom – Are you sure about Rosen’s fear of flying? There’s nothing in his SABR bio and google didn’t turn up anything either. Perhaps you’re thinking of Jackie Jensen?

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

Must have been. I don’t know where I got around to thinking that was Rosen, though. I didn’t associate that with Jackie Jensen at all, so I must’ve just gotten confused somewhere along the way!

RJ
RJ
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Dutch soccer player Dennis Bergkamp had a fear of flying that prevented him from travelling to away games in continental Europe. He was known as the Non-Flying Dutchman.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  RJ

By US standards Europe is pretty small plus they have a fairly extensive rail system. Couldn’t he simply drive or take the train? Many if not most of the trips would be less than 6 hours and even the longest I could think of (Amsterdam to Rome or Madrid) would be about 24 hours by rail which baseball players used to do 2 or 3 times a week for as much as 3 or 4 weeks at a stretch.

As a former rugby player I know soccer players are a pretty soft bunch but this seems extreme even for them.

RJ
RJ
8 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Hartvig: This was when he was playing for Arsenal in London. So he would sometimes play in away games in western Europe: France, the Netherlands… also Barcelona and Florence once.

But the schedule of top football teams just doesn’t allow for one of your star players to be driving from London to Kiev (or Moscow or Athens or Stockholm or Trondheim) and back mid-week.

I didn’t know you used to play rugby. That must be a fairly niche sport in North Dakota, no? (I’m letting the dig at me and my soccer playing brethren slide 🙂 )

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Founding member of the North Dakota State “Lost Boys” rugby club back in the late 70’s- the University of North Dakota formed their club a couple of years before us and we were both members of the Minnesota Rugby Union which was well established. We were pretty awful our first couple of years but by my last year we had picked up a handful of guys with experience elsewhere (including a couple from overseas) plus a couple of guys from the track team so we were much more competitive. And sorry about the dig but I just can’t resist one… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Football broadcaster John Madden never flew… once he saw a pilot buying flight insurance.

John Autin
Editor
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

Al Rosen’s 10.1 WAR in 1953 is the all-time record for a third baseman. His 145 RBI, 1.034 OPS and 180 OPS+ that year were 3B records until 2007 (A-Rod), 1980 (Brett) and 1966 (Dick Allen). Minnie Minoso, another recent loss, was a teammate, in the 1949 PCL and briefly with the Indians. (P.S. Those 1949 San Diego Padres had Rosen, Minoso, league BA and OPS champ Luke Easter … and ex-big leaguer Max West, who smacked 48 HRs, drew 201 walks, and both scored & drove in 166 runs in 189 games — but never got another look in… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

JA, I love looking at those old school PCL stats. They always make Selig-era baseball look like the deadball era.

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
8 years ago

Gehringer, Cochrane and Killebrew.

mosc
mosc
8 years ago

I like Gehringer more than Simmons. That’s how I’m going to justify not voting for a clearly qualified Simmons.

Ferrell always seens to need my vote. I think he’s a much stronger candidate than he’s getting credit for. I think he’s every bit as strong as Hubbell or Cochrane.

The bubble to me has more talent on it than at any point I can remember. I look at the total list here and see guys like Eck, Winfield, and Waner as either my last few in or last few out.

Gehringer, Ferrell, Campanella

Stephen
Stephen
8 years ago

Killebrew, Simmons, Gerhringer

Shard
Shard
8 years ago

Cochrane – Gehringer – Simmons

Brent
Brent
8 years ago

Gehringer, Simmons, Waner

T-Bone
T-Bone
8 years ago

Reuschel, Hubbell, Simmons

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

I plugged Al Simmons’ most tasty stats through age 32 into the play index:

.350+ BA (.354)
2000+ Hits(2188)
1300+ RBI (1380)

He is alone.
Nobody else did that through age 32.
Only Hornsby and Cobb approach those arbitrary cutoffs.

Here are the other guys in the ballpark:

.354 / 2188 / 1380 … Simmons
.372 / 2713 / 1206 … Tyrus
.361 / 2476 / 1270 … Rajah
.349 / 1731 / 1262 … Ruth
.347 / 1763 / 1261 … Ted Williams
.343 / 2142 / 1570 … Gehrig
.334 / 2370 / 1744 … Foxx

mosc
mosc
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

use his OBP instead of his BA

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  mosc

mosc: Have you seen my reply to your comment #140 in the COG 1903 Balloting?

mosc
mosc
8 years ago

Yes! Thanks for the reminder. Koufax vs Blyleven and the nature of picking an NYEAR threshold: Note, this discussion assumes WAR is perfect as a seasonal measure. I don’t think it is, but the NYEAR averaging is another way of looking at WAR so WAR’s errors are only magnified. Blyleven was a great pitcher. He’s 11th all time in pitching WAR. Koufax has some of the best seasons in baseball history but according to WAR they’re not in the top 10 since 1901. In fact, Koufax’s two years exceeding Blyleven’s 1973 9.9 pitching WAR (since 1901) is a feat matched… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Would you tell me what Koufax’s and Blyleven’s NYEAR25 values are so I can determine if my methodology is correct. My value for Killebrew matches yours but for some other players it does not match exactly.

mosc
mosc
8 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Sequentially, I came up with 5.89 for Blyleven and 5.00 for Koufax. I also re-order the years as Dr. Doom suggested and then use that on equal weights with the sequential score. I get a total of 6.11 for Blyleven and 5.06 for Koufax. Blyleven’s score is very high, where I think it should be.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  mosc

@116:

Thanks mosc. My values were 5.00 for Koufax (same as yours) and 5.61 for Blyleven (yours was 5.89). I don’t know where or how I went astray.

mosc
mosc
8 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Blyleven’s got a mess of half-seasons to deal with, possible I didn’t add it up correctly. Also possible we’re handling negative WAR seasons differently. I tend to think with WAR as an accumulating stat that if the team needed you as a below replacement level player that’s on them. They should have benched/released you. Ideally I would substitute 0 for any seasons with WAR < 0.

aweb
aweb
8 years ago

Gehringer
Waner
Brown

aweb
aweb
8 years ago

Gehringer
Brown
Waner

opal611
opal611
8 years ago

For the 1902 election, I’m voting for:
-Dennis Eckersley
-Dave Winfield
-Paul Waner

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Simmons
-Killebrew
-Brown
-Reuschel
-Tiant
-Gehringer
-Nettles
-Hubbell

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

Totals through 24 ballots (through #74):

16 – Gehringer
12 – Simmons*
===========50% (12)
9 – Waner*
7 – Cochrane*
===========25% (6)
5 – Killebrew
4 – Hubbell
3 – Brown, Campanella*
===========10% (3)
2 – Eckersley*, Nettles*, Reuschel, Tiant*, Winfield*
1 – Averill*, Ferrell*, Minoso*

Everyone with 2 votes is tied for 9th place, but it’s too early for that to be significant.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Yes, it’s too early for top-9 to be significant… sort of. Including the four votes below your update, we’re now at the point where all the top 9 HAVE reached 10%. That’s pretty significant. Because in spite of a ballot equally loaded with COG candidates as the last one (Simmons is not as worthy as Gehrig, but we’ve basically replaced one COG guy with another), this round WILL, in all likelihood, require anyone who wants to retain their position to actually reach 10%. That’s always a little more challenging.

Chris C
Chris C
8 years ago

Gehringer, Eck, and Hubbell

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
8 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Gehringer 48.1
Brown 43.3
Waner 40.8
Reuschel 40.6
FerrellW 40.1
Hubbell 39.8
Simmons 37.6
Tiant 37.5
Nettles 35.7
Eckersley 34.3
Killebrew 33.0
Winfield 31.1
Minoso 30.6
Cochrane 29.5
Averill 24.5
Campanella 19.2

Gehringer, Brown, Waner

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
8 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Aloysius Szymanski
Saturnino Orestes Arrieta Minoso Armas
and
Gordon Stanley Cochrane

This is based primarily on baseball achievement. If it were overall life achievement, Morris Berg would have replaced Cochrane.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
8 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

My vote posted as a reply to №80, so I am repeating it here:

Aloysius Szymanski
Saturnino Orestes Arrieta Minoso Armas
and
Gordon Stanley Cochrane

This is based primarily on baseball achievement. If it were overall life achievement, Morris Berg would have replaced Cochrane.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
8 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

What I really meant to add here:

Berg had no positive WAA seasons

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
8 years ago

Campanella, Cochrane, Hubbell.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago

Gehringer, Ferrell, Nettles

brp
brp
8 years ago

Aloysius Simmons
Graig Nettles
Carl Hubbell

Shout-out, but no vote, to Moe Berg.

Abbott
Abbott
8 years ago

Cochrane, Winfield, Eckersley

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
8 years ago

Gehringer, Simmons, Minoso

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Tuesday morning update, through Gary Bateman @106, the 31st vote:

20 – Charlie Gehringer
14 – Al Simmons*
10 – Paul Waner*
9 – Mickey Cochrane*
========================25% (8)
7 – Carl Hubbell
5 – Harmon Killebrew
4 – Kevin Brown, Roy Campanella*, Dennis Eckersley*, Graig Nettles*
========================10% (4)
3 – Dave Winfield*
2 – Wes Ferrell*, Minnie Minoso*, Rick Reuschel, Luis Tiant*
1 – Earl Averill*

Steve
Steve
8 years ago

Al Simmons, Harmon Killebrew, Charlie Gehringer and finally may Mr. May leave the ballot

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
8 years ago

Gehringer, Nettles, Tiant

billh
billh
8 years ago

Gehringer, Hubbell, Winfield

Mo
Mo
8 years ago

Reuschel Gehringer, Simmons