Circle of Greats 1874 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 113th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1874. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1874-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). Additionally, to be eligible, players must also have played at least half their career games since 1901 or compiled 20 WAR since 1901. This new group of 1874-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Sunday, November 29th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Friday, November 27th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1874 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1874 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The fourteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1874 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Ed Walsh (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Mordecai Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Addie Joss (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rube Waddell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1874, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Nap Lajoie
Honus Wagner
Topsy Hartsel
Jimmy Callahan
Roy Thomas
Harry Smith

Pitchers (born in 1874, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Jack Powell
Jesse Tannehill
Tully Sparks
Jack Chesbro
Willie Sudhoff

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Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#4: Dave Ferriss

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago

Dave Ferriss pitched 4 shutouts in his first 6 games. No one else has done that. His 46 wins in his first 2 seasons has been exceeded by only Pete Alexander. A shoulder injury curtailed his career and he finished with a total of 65 wins.

bells
bells
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

took a poke at a couple of these… #2 – thinking of guys who got lots of hits while old, I discovered that Sam Rice matched that total in his age 35 season. #4 – I initially thought Ruth, but he had 135 decisions with the Sox, and anyway, it seems like Richard Chester got it and I didn’t notice until now. #5 – the first two names that popped into my head were Rickey Henderson and Ty Cobb. The Georgia Peach never led his league in BB, but Henderson is one of the right answers. Sidenote – Ty Cobb… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
4 years ago
Reply to  bells

#6 Don’t know if he’s the latest, but Ted Williams did it with walks to spare.

Doug
Doug
4 years ago

There’s someone more recent than Splinter.

Doug
Doug
4 years ago
Reply to  bells

The other player (to join Henderson and Hartsel) shares a career statistical curiosity with Bert Campaneris and Derek Jeter (among others).

no statistician but
no statistician but
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#6 Don’t know if he’s the latest, but Ted Williams did it with walks to spare.

Joseph
Joseph
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Number 6 is another Thomas. Frank. AKA, The Big Hurt. Not the one from the 60’s.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#8: I found Fred Heimach and Hank Leiber. Leiber was a position whose only appearance as a pitcher was the last game of the 1942 season. He, along with Minnie Minoso and Whitey Kurowski, are the only players to lead his league in GIDP and HBP in the same season.

Doug
Doug
4 years ago

That 1942 appearance for Leiber was the last game of his professional career. A farewell gesture, evidently, from the Giants for whom Leiber played most of his career.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

5. The name besides Rickey Henderson is a tough one. My first few guesses only had 2 of the 3 categories. I thought Snuffy Stirnweiss may have done it in that 1945 season when he led the league in nearly everything, but he was only 6th in BBs. The answer is Johnny Mostil in 1925. Also led the league in PA, HBP and CS.

Doug
Doug
4 years ago

The curiosity Mostil shares with Campy and Jeter – identical career totals for sacrifice hits and times caught stealing.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#9, more decisions than starts in a 200-game career, 60%+ of appearances as a starter: Dizzy Trout, 331 decisions, 322 starts.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#11, pitcher with lowest season ERA+ since 1920 pitching 200+ innings and allowing fewer than 95 earned runs: Bill Parsons, 1972 Brewers—93 ER in 214 IP, 3.91 ERA, 77 ERA+.

(In 1973, incidentally, both Parsons and Steve Blass caught Steve Blass disease, except Parsons had a worse walk rate than Blass.)

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

What came to mind for #7 is John Montgomery Ward.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

These tidbits answers got lost in the ether when I posted them the first time. Again:

#9, more decisions than starts in a 200-game career, 60%+ of appearances as a starter: Dizzy Trout.

#11, pitcher with lowest season ERA+ since 1920 pitching 200+ innings and allowing fewer than 95 earned runs: Bill Parsons, 1972, 77 ERA+.

Brent
Brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I think #7 is Kid Gleason, who should be famous for winning 138 games as a pitcher in the 1890s and then turning into a pretty darn good 2nd baseman in his second career who stole more than 20 bases 6 times in his career.

Alas, he is most famous for the 1st season in his third career, as a manager, specifically the manager of the 1919 White Sox.

Brent
Brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

On #7, my first guess was Kid Gleason, who fits the original criteria, but not Doug’s followup hint later. However, I am not sure that post made it to the site, and anyway, I now think it is Cy Seymour anyway, based on Doug’s later comment that the pitcher did it after 1893.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#10: Tommy NcMillan

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago

That should be McMillan.

Doug
Doug
4 years ago

This round features the first players (I think) to meet the 10 seasons or 20 WAR threshold and be disqualified for playing fewer than half their career games since 1901.

Barry McCormick just missed (491 of 989 games since 1901) while Win Mercer’s career was cut short by suicide at age 28 in 1903, by which time he had already compiled 23.9 WAR.

David P
David P
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Just curious Doug but are you including Federal League stats in the 10 seasons/20 WAR? I remember seeing a few players that would only be ballot eligible if their Federal League time was included. Doubt any of those players would get elected, just curious how you decided to handle the Federal League.

Doug
Doug
4 years ago
Reply to  David P

I have included Federal League seasons in the qualifying criteria. Also, Players League and AA seasons for any of the players in the last few rounds who might have such time on their resumes.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug, I had looked at McCormick as well. I think you’re right about him being the first to meet the 10 year mark but miss the 50% since 1901 mark, and he might end up being one of the closest calls period. 49.64% of games played since 1901 – hard to get much closer than that.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago

Nellie Fox missed the Hall of Fame in 1985 — he only got 74.684% of the vote

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago

Counting this one I believe we have 8 guaranteed elections remaining plus whatever the BBWAA decides to do this years (my guess is 2). Based on that and who we have coming up in future elections I would guess that 1 to 3 names off of the holdover list will make it in, more if the BBWAA is more generous than expected. I hear 2 arguments against enshrining some of these guys: a) that the level of talent was more uneven the further back you go. I think there is at least some validity to this (I’ve made the argument… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Thanks for the tip on Roy Thomas. (When I think of Roy Thomas, I think of the guy who wrote Fantastic Four and X-Men and Avengers after Stan Lee – but perhaps my namesake would give that away to anyone who’s familiar with THAT Roy Thomas.) Anyway, as I was perusing his stats, I noticed something ELSE really interesting. In his first 9 seasons, his OBP was .088 (or MORE) higher than his SLG FIVE times. That’s insane! Cumulatively, through his age 32 season, his OBP/SLG was .430/.341 – .089 apart. I literally cannot imagine a hitter having a real… Read more »

David P
David P
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

The “other” baseball Roy Thomas, a pitcher for the Astros, Cardinals, and Mariners, won the final 8 decisions of his career.

Any idea if that’s a record? No idea how to find that in the PI.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  David P

Babe Ruth won his last 10, don’t know if that’s a record.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago

My bad, Ruth won his last 8 games with a decision. Eddie Yuhas won his last 10 decisions. It can be found with the Streak Finder. Set it for W =1 and check the To end season or active box. Jake Arrieta is first with 11 but he is still active.

David P
David P
4 years ago

Thanks Richard! Never heard of Yuhas before…looks like he blew his arm out in his sophomore season which is how he claimed that record.

Doug
Doug
4 years ago
Reply to  David P

Javier Vazquez won the last 6 games of his career, all starts, in 2011. That’s the most winning starts or appearances to end a career.

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I like this group–they were my size. Except for Otis Nixon, who should have had a little more juice in those arms. imagine a 17 year career with an OPS+ of 77, and someone with 621 stolen bases, but never more than 21 2B, or 3 3B;s in a season. Otis, really?

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Because I think the 1874 and 1873 elections are givens for Wagner and Lajoie, I’m thinking about votes now in terms of their implications for the 1872-71 election, when we will have whichever holdovers survive, plus a few very likely new additions (Clarke, Collins, Dahlin, Davis, Keeler, McGinnity, Wallace), who will pick up significant support. Here’s a chart (fingers crossed the columns sort of line up, but I’m sure they won’t) of all the current holdovers plus the likely additions – other than Wagner and Lajoie – with a variety of stats, mostly non-standard. The non-standard stats include peak WAR… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Concerning Wilhelm’s unique record, Kahuna Tuna posted a great analysis of the impact on his teams of Wilhelm’s catcher-evading knuckler, and I think it provides grounds for a much better assessment of his high unearned run rate. I mention it here because it may get lost now that the 1875 string is done.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago

Very informative breakdown, epm. One correction – Dahlen, Davis and Collins were born in 1870, so they won’t be part of the scrum in the 1872-1871 election.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

By George, you’re right, C.C. Now I actually have to think about the lead player on my ’72-’71 ballot, and when you take Davis out of this mix, the horse race is dismayingly close.

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago

Doug –

Having this round’s voting end on Thanksgiving might be a bit inconvenient for some. Might we extend it through the weekend?

Doug
Doug
4 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Good thought, David.

Yes, I’ll change the deadline.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

Well, with the very first vote (Hartvig’s) ensuring that both Wagner and Lajoie won’t be named on 100% of ballots, I have no qualms about casting my votes for both. With my third slot, I’m going to pull a Tammy Wynette and stand by my man, as Kevin Brown and I probably have the largest combination of votes by a single voter for a single player. I realize that Brown has lots of eligibility stored up AND no chance of winning this round. At the same time, I’m actually hoping that having two STELLAR candidates this round gives us some… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Do you know how many times have you voted for Brown, Dr. Doom? My top vote-receiver is Roberto Alomar, for whom I voted 42 times.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

I will answer you in full when I finish counting (it’s actually REALLY FUN to look back at old ballots; I’m going to save it now, though, so I don’t have to keep checking them all).

For now, I’m only back to 1916.1, which has been 46 ballots. I’ve voted for Kevin Brown in 45 of those rounds. And I’m pretty sure I voted for him all the way back on the very first ballot… so it’s going to be a lot.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

So, I learned a few things. 1. I didn’t vote for Kevin Brown in the first round. My mistake. I did, however, vote for him twice in the 1950s. I’ve voted for him 50 times in this process. That may not be the most for a single-voter-single-player combo, but it’s gotta be pretty close. 2. I also voted for Ryne Sandberg 32 times, Bobby Grich 21 times, Luis Tiant 21 times, Ron Santo 14 times, Alan Trammell 10 times, and Larry Walker 10 times. Those are my double-digit guys. 3. Sadly, I discovered something that absolutely broke my heart. This… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I know I voted for Biggio for a while when he was trying to get in / trying to get more votes than Barry Bonds has homeruns.

JEV
JEV
4 years ago

Lajoie, Wagner, Joss

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Wagner, Lajoie, Goslin.

Andy
Andy
4 years ago

Wagner, Lajoie, Waddell

Stephen
Stephen
4 years ago

Lajoie, Wagner, K Brown

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago

As for my vote:

Best position player: Wagner (Love that 1908 season – it looks like someone spilled black ink on the page, but no, that’s just old Hans, leading the league in just about everything worth measuring)
Best pitcher: K. Brown (if Waddell is in danger of falling off, I may change my vote to save him, since I think he belongs in the mix for the 1872-1871 election)
Wildcard: Lajoie (As a lifelong Indians fan, how can I leave off a guy so integral to the franchise that we changed our name to honor him?)

mosc
mosc
4 years ago

I’m going to strategically vote without Lajoie under the premise that voting for him is purely strategic anyway considering he has no shot of winning this round.

Wagner, Ferrell, Dawson

nettles has a spare round worst case

aweb
aweb
4 years ago

Wagner
Lajoie
K. Brown

Reaching for some negatives…wagner was always missing a few games a season, until setting his career high at age 41. So a fragile player who was clearly a roider at the end. Lajoie isn’t even the best player on the ballot and hung around at the end obviously reaching for 3000 hits. Also didn’t take many walks…

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  aweb

Obviously, this was largely in jest. However, with Wagner, you have to keep in mind that much of his career was played in a 140-game schedule. That changes how one views some of those seasons of 130 games played.

aweb
aweb
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Oh yeah, I recalled the seasonal totals bounced around a bit, but forgot they used to be that low. Part I always forget about Wagner until I see his bbref page – he stole a ton of bases and is still top ten all time.

bells
bells
4 years ago
Reply to  aweb

…couldn’t find anything negative to say about Brown? 😉

Also, are we far back enough that the guy who caused controversy by using extract of monkey’s testicle is on the ballot? I remember Voomo mentioning that a loooong time ago but can’t remember who the guy was.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago
Reply to  bells

Bells, I think you’re referring to Pud Galvin, who tried the Brown-Sequard elixir in 1889. He won’t be making his way onto the ballot, not because of PED controversy, but because he was wholly a 19th century pitcher. A couple quick Galvin facts: Though his nickname seems like it has a mocking or even a concupiscent origin, it’s actually a reference to his pitches making hitters look “like pudding.” Most people know about Hoss Radbourn’s famous 1884 season, where he won 59 (or 60, or even 61; unsurprisingly, there’s some discrepancies with records from 130+ years ago) games. But Galvin… Read more »

MJ
MJ
4 years ago

Honus Wagner, Nap Lajoie, Rick Reuschel

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

Can someone issue a reminder on the eligibility status of George Davis, Bill Dahlen, and Denton Young? All of them played more than half their careers before 1900.

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

All three- Davis, Dahlen & Young- are eligible for COG voting.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

So, continuing what hartvig started above (I’m doing it at the bottom because, without numbering the comments, it’s difficult to find a comment in the middle of the form)… If we have 8-11 elections remaining… … and all Redemption candidates are banished to the Circle of Pretty Good, the upcoming guys in the WAR stratosphere of already enshrined players are: Honus Lajoie Cyclone George Davis Bill Dahlen Fred Clarke If it plays out that way, two holdovers get in for sure (plus whatever the BBWAA gives us in January). ____________ Here’s where all of our holdovers rank according to JAWS… Read more »

David P
David P
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I’m skeptical of Clarke making it in. I see three main knocks against him: 1) Over 20 of his WAR was accumulated before the 20th Century. 2) He has +91 fielding runs and the further back we go the more skeptical people are of the defensive numbers. 3) Outside of a 6.6 WAR season in 1897, he never topped 5.2 WAR in a single year. Would people really vote for Clarke over Nettles who has the same WAR in the same amount of playing time? And doesn’t suffer from problems #1 or #3. And who we know was a legitimately… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago
Reply to  David P

Clarke’s offensive numbers (slugging) were likely aided by playing in Exposition Park in Pittsburgh. Splits dont exist to confirm, but lots of doubles and triples when it is 515 in center and 475 in LC. I would take Nettles. ___________ Here’s a nugget from wikipedia that I though can’t possibly be true. Couple of links below confirm it: ________ During a July 4, 1902 doubleheader against the Brooklyn Superbas, an Allegheny flood caused water to rise to thigh level in center and right fields, and about head level in deep center. Players occasionally caught a ball and dove under the… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I would probably swap out Bobby Wallace for Fred Clarke in your top 6. I also wouldn’t put too much significance in positional rankings for outfielders. JAWS may see Goslin as the 9th best left fielder but in right field his score would put him in 15th just ahead of Dewey Evans. There are also 16 shortstops and 13 second basemen with a higher JAWS score than him as well. And Clarke’s JAWS score is about 5% lower than Goslin’s. The Hall of Stats reverses the two. Clarke’s HOS score is in the COG borderline range- Goslin’s JAWS score is… Read more »

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
4 years ago

Wagner, Lajoie, Ashburn

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

We elected Koufax entirely on the strength of his 6 year peak (plus postseason).

Here’s the case for Walsh, with stats from each of their 6 year peaks:

Koufax
1633 IP
46.6 WAR
35 IP/WAR

129-47
156 era+
_________

Walsh

2248 IP
55.3 WAR
40.7 IP/WAR

151-99
157 era+

Walsh led the league in Saves 5 of those 6 years.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo, The parallel is really very close, and you’ve made me rethink whether I really want to rate Goslin over Walsh or even, as you note below, Waddell, for whom parallel 6-year peak stats would be: 1869 IP 46.5 WAR 40.2 IP.WAR 131-82 146 era+ I think you left out an important stat when comparing: Ks, which reflect the type of pitchers these guys were. In straight up terms, the 6-year peak K’s and K’s/9 are: Koufax 1713 / 9.4 Waddell 1576 / 7.6 Walsh 1369 / 5.5 But if you normalize for the league K rate apart from each… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

I’m torn right now between Walsh and Waddell. Each were dominant in their peaks in different ways. Walsh brought sheer volume of effort, while Waddell’s ability to miss bats was on another level from his peers.

1904, SO Leaders
349 … Waddell
239 … Chesbro
202 … Powell
201 … Plank
200 … Young

1902, 1903, and 1905 have a similar spread.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago

#1: On 8-6-99 Tony Gwynn got his 3000th hit off rookie Dan Smith.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

Vote update, since we now have over ten ballots (I never really see the need to post one before that, as it’s really just “have you gotten a vote or not?”). 11 – Honus Wagner =========100% (11) 9 – Nap Lajoie =========75% (9) =========50% (6) 4 – Kevin Brown =========25% (3) 2 – Richie Ashburn, Wes Ferrell =========10% (2) 1 – Andre Dawson, Goose Goslin*, Addie Joss, Rick Reuschel, Rube Waddell 0 – Dick Allen, Mordecai Brown, Graig Nettles*, Luis Tiant, Ed Walsh*, Hoyt Wilhelm Over 1/3 of voters have submitted identical Wagner-Lajoie-KBrown ballots – meaning that every vote Kevin… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Looking at Voomo’s early vote tally, I’m concerned that the double-candidacy of Wagner and Lajoie may result in the unintended consequence of knocking off truly viable holdovers. With a substantial number of closely comparable CoG-borderline candidates and a small number of available non-Wager-Lajoie votes, it would be easy for quite a few players who vie successfully for election in the 1872-71 round to fail to get the 4 votes necessary to survive till then. (I’ll confess that I’m thinking in particular about the implications of this on Kevin Brown’s candidacy. I’ve spent a lot of time researching Brown’s record, and… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago

The only problem with the PED assessment in my view is that the established timeline has Brown starting to use in 2000 or 2001, and his best seasons were 1996 and 1998. Of course, he was teammates in Texas with a lot of known or suspected users (Palmeiro, Canseco, Juan Gonzalez), so it’s not much of a stretch to assume that he started using before 2000. But as far as documented use, we can’t say for certain that he was using PEDs during his peak seasons. As a Brown supporter, I’m a lot more troubled by his home/road splits, which… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

C.C., I agree with you that it’s hard to know what (and when) the PED effect may have been, and, as you pointed out on an earlier thread, it’s a lot harder to assess the effects of PEDs on pitchers than on hitters. But even if we grant that Brown’s best seasons were unaffected, the effect on his WAR figures is significant in this context. The Mitchell report evidence concerns 2-3 years beginning in 2000 or 2001. If you call into question his WAR from that point (9.5-16.7, depending on which year you date from), his CoG competitors are much… Read more »

David P
David P
4 years ago

Cursed Clevelander:

Regarding Brown’s home/road splits….

Of the 96 pitchers with 3,000+ innings pitched, Brown has the 4th biggest home advantage based on ERA. Tiant, the pitcher that I prefer, is 75th.

Of the 329 pitchers with 2,000+ innings pitched, Brown has the 12th biggest home advantage based on ERA. Tiant is 252nd. And Sandy Koufax, who everyone dings for being helped by his home parks, only ranks 111th.

Of course, WAR theoretically takes care of these sorts of things. But I’m not certain/convinced that it works so well at the extremes.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago

I agree with your other point, though. I might end up dropping Brown and Lajoie if it’s necessary to keep a guy like Waddell or Wilhelm on the ballot, since I think both should be in the mix for the 1872-1871 election.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

I will take credit for the stars and the moon, but I have tallied no votes. That grind has been labored by Mr Doom, Ph.D.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

My apologies to Doom!

Especially like your work on Orion, Voomo.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

Kevin Brown had cups’a’coffee in ’86 and ’88, and he was terrible in 2005. So his productive career ran from 1989-2004. Here are the leaders in the following categories spanning 10 years on either side of his run, from 1979-2014: WINS: 355 … Maddux 354 … Clemens 305 … Glavine 303 … R Johnson 270 … Mussina 269 … Moyer 256 … Pettitte 250 … Morris 239 … Wells 219 … K Rogers 219 … P. Martinez 216 … Schilling 214 … D. Martinez 214 … Hudson 213 … Smoltz 211 … KEVIN BROWN 208 … C.C. ____________ WAR: 139.4… Read more »

Chris C
Chris C
4 years ago

Wagner, Lajoie, Allen

KalineCountry
KalineCountry
4 years ago

Wagner
Lajoie
Walsh

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

I’ve posted some comments about the site’s functionality on the Suggestions page, here:

http://www.highheatstats.com/suggestions/#comment-107421

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Agreed 10000% on all your points – ESPECIALLY the numbered comments. I can do a Ctrl+F for the day (like November 23) and that helps, but it used to be SO MUCH EASIER when comments were just numbered. In my opinion, unnumbered comments are a step backward in creating discourse, since it’s harder to figure out if certain conversations are going or not.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I was about to post an addition to Voomo’s, but I thought I’d ask first: Is there some way to access the archive I’m missing? The only way I can find access to old strings is by clicking serially on the last-post link near the banner, and that would be far too time-consuming.

I agree with Voomo’s suggestions, too, but given the ease of agreement factor and reduced leverage after Doom’s comment, my agreement only calculates as 8713%.

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago

If it’s not listed on the “Recent Posts” board the only way that I’ve been able to do it- besides doing what you suggested- was by using the “Search” function.

Which, now that I look for it, is no longer there.

So, no.

I got nothin’.

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago

EPM’s comment about too many votes going to Wagner and Lajoie, thinning out the holdover crowd by default, is a good one. Wagner is too good not to vote for. Lajoie is going to get in next year. If these two take 60+% of the total vote, basically you are forcing the voters to select only their remaining top choice. Given the intensity of Brown’s loyalists, now concentrated in a smaller field, you are going to have a handful of votes that are truly “free”. I’m voting for Wagner this time, Lajoie the next, and I have to figure out… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

Vote:

Wes Ferrell
Rube Waddell
Hoyt Wilhelm

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

I’m changing my vote, for reasons I’ve explained above and that Mike L has enlarged upon. I’m unwilling not to celebrate Wagner, but Lajoie doesn’t need my help, unless by Friday a raft of changed votes puts him in danger. I’m also passing on Walsh and Goslin, others I support, because they’re not on the bubble. Given my view of Brown, I no longer think he’s the pick of the Brown-Reuschel-Tiant group, and I don’t think any member of that group beats out the best of the Walsh-Waddell-Joss-Ferrell group (to which McGinnity will be added). Wilhelm remains a strong wild… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago

Wagner,Lajoie, Goslin

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago

No objections to Napoléon or Honus geting in.

Chesboro and Tannehill are essentially the same pitcher — each in the other’s top 2 or 3 in similarity scores, each jumping from the Pirates to the Highlanders.

Voting this round:
Ed Walsh
Hoyt Wilhelm
Nixey Callahan (who had 2 RBI in a night game at Comiskey Park in 1910)

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

Your post got me to Callahan’s bio, oneblank – I’d never heard of that story before. I was also impressed that offered the position of president of the ballclub, he successfully argued Comiskey into hiring him as a player instead.

Joseph
Joseph
4 years ago

Goslin, Nettles, Walsh.

dr-remulak
dr-remulak
4 years ago

Nettles, Waddell, Wilhelm.

Paul E
Paul E
4 years ago

Allen, Joss, Wagner

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
4 years ago

Lajoie, Tiant, Allen

I think it’s about time Lajoie got a vote over Wagner, although they are pretty darn similar players, and Wagner wins almost every metric except BA. I will say I’m going with the Rhode Islander over the Pennsylvanian.

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
4 years ago

First off, my votes go to Honus, Nap, and Addie.

Second, how come no posts or comments from the last two and a half weeks (the last post I have is Charlie Hayes) show up when I go to the site in my normal Chrome window, but when I use Chrome incognito or Firefox, it works fine?

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago
Reply to  Mike HBC

Funny enough, for me it’s the opposite. The site works fine on Chrome (even without an incognito window) but on Firefox it won’t load anything past the MVP Crowdsourcing post.

I think it’s an issue with the site cookies, though. IIRC, Incognito windows disable cookies as well as not recording sites visited in the browser history. If you manually delete all the HHS cookies, it should restore most of the functionality.

opal611
opal611
4 years ago

For the 1874 election, I’m voting for:
-Andre Dawson
-Rick Reuschel
-Luis Tiant

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Wagner
-Lajoie
-Brown (Kevin)
-Goslin
-Ashburn
-Nettles
-Allen
-Walsh
-Waddell

Kirk
Kirk
4 years ago

Honus Wagner, Rick Reuschel and Hoyt Wilhelm

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

In the “things I did NOT see coming” division, Nixey Callahan outpolling Mordecai Brown would have to be near the top.

Here’s an update, through Kirk, the 23rd ballot:

===============75% (18)
17 – Honus Wagner
13 – Nap Lajoie
===============50% (12)
===============25% (6)
5 – Hoyt Wilhelm
4 – Kevin Brown*, Rube Waddell
3 – Dick Allen, Wes Ferrell, Addie Joss, Rick Reuschel, Ed Walsh*
===============10% (3)
2 – Richie Ashburn, Andre Dawson, Goose Goslin*, Graig Nettles*, Luis Tiant
1 – Nixey Callahan
0 – Mordecai Brown

Brent
Brent
4 years ago

Wagner, Lajoie and Goslin. I think I am too conflicted about the group of pitchers I have to choose from, so will take the easy way out and vote for none of them.

T-Bone
T-Bone
4 years ago

Reuschel, D. Allen, Honus Wagner

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago

Doom–your observation about Nixey Callahan–he’s also polling at 7% in New Hampshire. Nixey was born, raised, and was buried in Fitchburg, MA so he’s getting a little favorite son treatment. Behind Trump, Carson, Rubio, Cruz, and Bush but ahead of Huck, Paul, and Christie. Bet you didn’t see that coming….

Happy Thanksgiving, folks,

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago

Goslin, Nettles, Tiant

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

I know I posted an update only three votes ago, but I’m going to be away from my work computer until Sunday morning, and that’s where I store my spreadsheet I use to keep track. So here’s the last vote update I’ll be giving until Sunday AM, if at all. This is through David Horwich, the 26th vote: ======75% (20) 19 – Honus Wagner 14 – Nap Lajoie ======50% (13) ======25% (7) 5 – Hoyt Wilhelm 4 – Dick Allen, Kevin Brown*, Goose Goslin*, Rick Reuschel, Rube Waddell 3 – Wes Ferrell, Addie Joss, Graig Nettles*, Luis Tiant, Ed Walsh*… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I should be able to post an update some time over the weekend. Will Nixey Callahan continue to outpoll Mordecai Brown? Stay tuned…

robbs
robbs
4 years ago

Wagner Lajoie Goslin

bstar
bstar
4 years ago

Wagner, Dawson, Allen

brp
brp
4 years ago

Wilhelm
Ashburn
Dick Allen

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago

Interim copy updating Dr Doom’s table from Wednesday afternoon:
This is through brp, the 29th vote, with 12 hours to go:

22 – Honus Wagner
======75% (22)
15 – Nap Lajoie
======50% (15)
======25% (8)
6 – Hoyt Wilhelm, Dick Allen,
5 – Goose Goslin*,
4 – Kevin Brown*, Rick Reuschel, Rube Waddell
3 – Wes Ferrell, Addie Joss, Graig Nettles*, Luis Tiant, Ed Walsh*, Andre Dawson, Richie Ashburn
======10% (3)
1 – Nixey Callahan
0 – Mordecai Brown

David P
David P
4 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

OBS: It’s 12 hours to go for vote changing. The balloting is open through Sunday night.

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

The above tally has one excess vote for Wagner, not that it’s going to matter in the end.

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago

Not an easy group–you are really starting to see a split in the way we perceive older players and new ones–particularly among the pitchers. And there’s just not very much time left. I considered Mordecai Brown, but I thought a) I was wasting a vote, and the HOF votes for the three (Walsh, Waddell, Brown) were intriguing. Brown never got above 27%. Walsh was high 40’s and 50s. Waddell mid 50’s and 60’s. Presumably, many of the voters had a chance to see all three pitch, and they were near contemporaries

Wagner, Waddell, Walsh.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

I’m going to be difficult and change my vote a second time (if that’s allowed! I don’t remember) before this evening’s deadline cuts off the chance. The reason is Tiant’s potential disqualification. I see K. Brown, Reuschel, and Tiant as extremely close in CoG potential, but, for reasons I’ve already laid out on previous posts, Tiant would have the edge for me. I’d be disappointed if, when an actual holdover selection may occur, Tiant were the only one of the three to have dropped out, so I’d like to provide him the cushion he may need this round. My earlier… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago

Multiple vote changes have always been allowed.

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago

With the vote-changing deadline having passed, here’s the current tally through 30 ballot (through Mike L’s ballot, and including epm’s vote change):

21 – Wagner
15 – Lajoie
==========50% (15)
==========25% (8)
6 – Allen, Wilhelm
5 – Goslin*, Waddell
4 – K Brown*, Reuschel, Tiant, Walsh*
3 – Ashburn, Dawson, Ferrell, Joss, Nettles*
==========10% (3)
1 – Callahan
0 – M Brown