Circle of Greats 1870 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 116th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1870. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1870-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). Additionally, to be eligible, players must also have played at least half their career games since 1901 or compiled 20 WAR since 1901. This new group of 1870-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Sunday, January 3rd, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Friday, January 1st.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1870 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1870 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1870 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rube Waddell (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Fred Clarke (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Bobby Wallace (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1870, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Jimmy Collins
Doc Powers
Doc Casey
Socks Seybold

Pitchers (born in 1870, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
No eligible pitchers this round

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Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

Kevin Brown
Wes Ferrell
Rube Waddell

Merry Christmas, everyone!

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago

I think we’re eventually going to need to have a discussion about how much confidence we have in the early defensive measures, especially since someone like Bill Dahlen gets a lot of his value from his dWAR. But no matter how I slice it, Davis seems to be the best eligible position player this round. Davis has over double the Rbat of Dahlen. Post-1900, Dahlen has negative Rbat.

Best position player: George Davis
Best pitcher: Kevin Brown
Wildcard (in every sense of the word): Rube Waddell

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago

I presume I’m not the only one keeping an eye on the returns for the HoF voting – here’s the link for those who haven’t seen it: bit.ly/hof16 At the moment, with not quite 1/4 of the ballots counted, Griffey (to no one’s surprise) is a mortal lock to get in, and Piazza (at 90%) is also in very good shape. Bagwell (84%) and Raines (81%) are strong contenders, while Hoffman (62%) is going to fall a little short. So it looks like we’re going to have at least 6 more rounds of CoG voting, and maybe as many as… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

I would assume, and this is wholly untested, that voters who share their ballots online are more likely to support Raines and less likely to support Hoffman. And I would guess the reverse also applies. So Raines may end up falling just short (though I certainly hope he makes it), whereas Hoffman might end up just clearing the 3/4 mark.

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago

Last year Bagwell, Piazza, Raines, Mussina, and Schilling all did better on public ballots than on non-public ballots, while Lee Smith (most notably) did better on non-public ballots, as I would guess would have been with the case with Hoffman, had he been on the ballot last year.

But with the purging of the voter roll I suspect this effect may be dampened. We shall see…

David P
David P
4 years ago

Note that there are also 12 partial ballots at the bottom of the spreadsheet. These aren’t included in the totals since for some reason these voters decided to only reveal some of the players they voted for. Raines has been named on 10 of these 12 ballots and Bagwell on 8 of them. As for voters who share their ballots being more likely to vote for Raines, that’s probably true but less so then in past years now that they kicked a bunch of voters off the rolls (my guess is that the ones who were kicked off were the… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago

So, our ballot choices were endorsed by a bit of an unlikely source. Larry King tweeted today:

“Ken Griffey, Mike Piazza, Tim Raines, Jeff Bagwell all should go into the Hall of Fame on the next vote. This is a no brainer.”

I knew King was a big baseball fan; didn’t expect him to be a Raines backer. Serves me right for assuming.

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Both Bonds & Clemens are hovering around the 50% mark and from a quick scroll it appears that everyone who voted for them voted for both with the sole exception of a guy named Barry Rozner, who voted only for Bonds. Doesn’t anyone know what his rationale was?

I’m really hoping that Trammell at least clears the 50% mark

David P
David P
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig –

Here’s an article which from last year on why Rozner voted for Bonds but not Clemens. Basically, he claims he doesn’t know when Clemens started taking PEDs.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/01/voters-on-why-clemens-and-bonds-are-different.html#

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago

Davis, Nettles, Tiant

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago

So – Jimmy Collins. In the middle of the 20th century, he was probably considered the best 3B of all-time. Some people may have preferred the more recently retired Pie Traynor, who had superficially higher stats due to playing in the midst of a high-scoring era. And according to the modern superstats, they were right to be impressed by Collins. Career bWAR, 50% games played at 3B, 1871-1960 (pre-expansion): 1. Home Run Baker – 62.8 2. Eddie Mathews – 60.9 (retired with 96.4) 3. Jimmy Collins – 53.2 4. Stan Hack – 52.5 5. Bob Elliott – 50.4 But since… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago

Collins & Clarke might be the two guys being shorted the most by the era in which they played. Not only were significant portions of their careers played in a pitchers paradise they also played 4 of their prime years (age 30 to 33 for Collins & 27 to 30 for Clarke) at a time of only a 140 game schedule.

I don’t think I’ll be voting for either of them but I can see a very reasonable rationale for doing so.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

They also have a couple other similarities. They were both player-managers of very successful teams at the beginning of the 20th century – in fact, they opposed each other in the inaugural 1903 World Series. Of course, Clarke managed a lot longer than Collins – his managerial career alone is “Hall of Very Good” material, though like just about every great manager he had a huge advantage over other teams in possessing the best player in baseball for most of his career. They were inducted to the HoF in the same class, the 1945 Old-Timers Committee vote. The various committees… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

That Socks Seybold had a solid career for someone who didn’t really start in The Show until age 30 (cuppa coffee at 28).

WAR, age 30+, in the first 8 seasons of a career:

45.8 … Jackie
29.5 … Ichiro
26.4 … Gavvy
25.4 … SOCKS
25.4 … Averill
25.3 … Stanky
24.6 … Ken Williams
24.1 … Bob Johnson

22.9 … Davey Lopes
22.0 … Dolph Camilli
21.4 … Melvin Mora
21.3 … Monte Irvin

19.8 … Hideki Matsui
19.4 … Ben Zobrist
18.8 … Chief Myers
18.0 … Hank Sauer

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I’ve been familiar with Seybold’s name and role for more years than I care to acknowledge, but never actually noticed this before, Voomo. Good catch!

jajacob
jajacob
4 years ago

brown
nettles
tiant

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

2. I’m pretty sure one of them is Babe Ruth.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Answer to #5: Zack Wheat

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

2. The other one is Javy Lopez – the catcher, not the LOOGY. I completely forgot he ever played for the Red Sox. Actually, given how he performed, I expect most Red Sox fans have also forgotten that stint.

brent
brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#1 is Jim Gentile in 1960 with 192 total bases and 98 RBIs.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

6. It’s Ben Chapman in 1931 – 28 doubles, a league-leading 61 steals and 122 RBI.

Eric Davis’s 1987 fits the criteria of RBI >= 2*SB and SB >= 2*2B (100 RBI, 50 SB, 23 2B), but he didn’t lead the league in any of those stats.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Answer to #3: Danny Schaffer

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

4. Looks like it’s David Bell. My first guess was Casey Blake, but he would have only qualified if he retired after 2010.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Here are some WAR and ERA+/OPS+ figures for current candidates.

Pitchers
..Name….P(Tot)-WAR….Peak5…Top5…WAR/9IP…WAR/Yr….ERA+…Career length
Brown……68.5 (68.3)…37.0…37.0….0.189….4.0 (17)…127…1.24
Ferrell….48.8 (61.8)…29.9…36.0….0.168….4.9 (10)…116…1.00
Reuschel…68.2 (70.1)…31.0…32.8….0.173….4.0 (17)…114…1.35
Tiant……66.1 (66.7)…28.7…34.7….0.171….3.9 (17)…114…1.33
Waddell….61.0 (58.5)…43.9…43.9….0.185….5.9 (10)…135…1.13
Wilhelm….50.1 (47.3)…16.1…21.6….0.184….2.6 (19)…147…N/A
Position Players
..Name….WAR………Peak5…Top5…WAR/G…WAR/Yr…OPS+…Career length
Allen…..58.7……..31.5…36.7…0.034…4.2 (14)…156…1.0
Ashburn…63.6……..31.6…32.7…0.029…4.2 (15)…111…1.3
Clarke….67.4……..22.2…26.6…0.030…3.7 (18)…133…1.3
Collins…53.2……..25.9…29.5…0.031…4.1 (13)…113…1.0
Dahlin….75.2……..22.6…29.8…0.031…4.0 (19)…110…1.4
Davis…..84.3……..27.4…33.1…0.036…4.7 (18)…121…1.4
Dawson….64.4……..32.4…33.7…0.025…3.4 (19)…119…1.5
Goslin….66.1……..32.5…32.8…0.029…4.1 (16)…128…1.3
Nettles…68.0……..28.7…32.2…0.025…3.4 (20)…110…1.4
Wallace..70.2 (76.3)..28.6…31.3…0.029…4.1 (17)…105…1.3

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Sorry the columns came out worse than ever . . .

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

Try doing the numbers first, then the names.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago

And keep the same number of characters for each entry in a column. Although that will be difficult for the title row.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Thanks for these formatting suggestions. I’ll try some, if I keep on posting these numbers in future rounds. I’ve posted them simply because I’ve calculated them – not sure whether they’re actually helpful.

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago

I want to pick up on where there was some discussion between types of cheating at the end of the Walsh Wilhelm runoff. On actual throwing of games, I have absolutely no sympathy–even for Joe Jackson. On gambling/Rose, that’s a tougher one. Rose bet on baseball–he obviously has a compulsive side. I can’t imagine he bet against his own team–he’s too competitive. Would he shade his managing decisions based on the size of his bets…I just don’t know. Tip off bookies? Same. It’s these doubts that are at the bedrock of MLB’s iron-clad rule against betting. We picking COG are… Read more »

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
4 years ago

Why are there nine 1970 players on B-R with 10+ seasons, and one more with 20+ WAR, but only six new nominees? Frank Killen pitched ten seasons and had 29.5 pitching WAR (plus 4 hitting WAR), yet is not listed.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago
Reply to  Mike HBC

We’re only working with players who earned the plurality of their value in the 20th (or 21st) century.

Dahlen and Davis are right on the border.

Killen had the misfortune (for our exercise) of being an effective player at age 20.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Next week, Kid Nichols and his 115.5 WAR will also be on the bench.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Pitching WAR, first nine seasons of a career:

90.6 … Kid
82.6 … Big Train
81.6 … Cyclone

75.5 … Clarkson
73.8 … Keefe
72.9 … McKormick
69.2 … Rusie
69.0 … Alexander
65.7 … Tom Seaver

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Actually, if I have this right, the formula is either most seasons post-1900 or 20+ WAR post-1900.

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

You know, I totally forgot about that caveat. Thanks.

Andy
Andy
4 years ago

Davis, Dahlen, Waddell

brent
brent
4 years ago

Goslin, Waddell and George Davis

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
4 years ago

Goslin, Davis, Ashburn

MJ
MJ
4 years ago

George Davis, Bill Dahlen, Bobby Wallace

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago

Pretty amazing level of talent among the newcomers percentage-wise- half are legitimate Hall of Famers and with a little luck it’s not out of the question that could have been two-thirds.

I know 2 of the guys I am voting for but I have yet to make up my mind on the Wallace/Dahlen conundrum.

brent
brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

That’s due to selective sorting, though. We only have players who were good enough to put up good numbers in their 30s here. Usually that is going to be a higher level talent.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

I think Davis is the class of this round and a true CoGworthy candidate. For those who are concerned that he’s an “Old Timer,” although he’s a full-time player as early as 1890, Davis was still able to accumulate 37.8 WAR from 1901 (his age-30 season) on, averaging 4.2 WAR/season, and that’s despite the fact that he lost the 1903 season to the inter-league wars that blocked him from playing, although he was ready and able to do so – a standard we usually grant credit for. (Davis averaged 6.4 WAR in the surrounding seasons – he should obviously be… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago

This vote was changed at January 2, 2016 at 12:44 am Atlantic Time, just before the vote-change deadline.

Chris C
Chris C
4 years ago

Davis, Allen, Ashburn

T-Bone
T-Bone
4 years ago

D. Allen, Reuschel, Wilhelm

Joseph
Joseph
4 years ago

Davis, Dahlen, Nettles

bstar
bstar
4 years ago

Allen, Dawson, Wilhelm

Paul E
Paul E
4 years ago

Allen, Dahlen, davis

Paul E
Paul E
4 years ago

Allen, Dahlen, davis

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago

Early vote update, through 14 ballots (Paul E’s 2:46 PM 12/27 vote) –

========75% (11)
10 – Davis
========50% (7)
5 – Waddell*, Dahlen
4 – Allen
========25% (4)
3 – Brown*, Nettles*
2 – Ashburn, Tiant, Goslin*, Wilhelm*
========10% (2)
1 – Wallace, Dawson, Reuschel, Ferrell
0 – Clarke, [Collins]

As always, players marked with a [*] are off the bubble. Relatively commanding lead for Davis, while Dahlen is already safe as a holdover with 5 votes (pending changed ballots). 4 votes is pretty much the standard for being safe, since we tend to get 36-40 ballots nowadays.

JEV
JEV
4 years ago

Brown, Goslin, Clarke

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago

David D and P, Cursed, and Hartvig: The Boston Globe has a piece by Nick Cafardo, in which he talks about his HOF ballot. Cafardo is now taking the position that, based on his conversations with admitted users, half MLB players took PEDS. Because of that, he no longer will take it into account in his balloting. The Globe has a paywall, but you can read up to five articles a month: http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/12/27/rich-hill-ready-pitch-for/0rYM41N7NDEUkBy8Wd7K8N/story.html? Cafardo’s choices are Griffey, Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, Kent, Schilling, Mussina, Hoffman and Sheffield. He notes leaving off Trammel, Raines, Edgar, McGriff, and Walker. I’m not a… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

To me his ballot almost looks as if he is saying: “You didn’t cheat? Then I am going to penalize you for it.”

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig, I think your are correct, but there’s also a tremendous demolition derby coming up, which may further serve to lessen the chances of the non-cheaters. Here’s a list of new entrants for the next five years, 60bWAR or better:
2017, I Rod, Manny, and at 59.3, Vlad Guerrero
2018, Chipper, Thome, Rolen, and Andruw Jones.
2019, Mariano, Halladay, Helton, Pettitte
2020, Jeter, and at 59.9 Abreu

this list does not include people who will get consideration, like Vizquel, or some who will get some votes, like Posada, maybe Cliff Lee, Damon, Moyer,

Kirk
Kirk
4 years ago

Hoyt Wilhelm, Rick Reuschel and George Davis

BillH
BillH
4 years ago

Waddell, Allen, Dawson

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

Betances, Champan, Miller combined last year:

212 IP
347 SO
40 ER

Paul E
Paul E
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Voom,
For 2014-2015, the top three in %-age of batters faced struck out….or, in English, strike-out percentage

Paul E
Paul E
4 years ago

Offensive WAR 1964 – 1969
1 Dick Allen 41.5
2 Ron Santo 41.1
3 Hank Aaron 39.9
4 Frank Robinson 39.6
5 Willie Mays 38.1
6 Roberto Clemente 36.5
7 Harmon Killebrew 34.4
8 Willie McCovey 33.7
9 Carl Yastrzemski 33.5

That’s 8 Hall of Famers following an oft-injured, frequently-suspended, habitually-fined, abused by fans, multiple-position train wreck of a young man. Based on Cafardo’s logic, Allen should be a unanimous choice for the Circle of Greats 🙁

shard
shard
4 years ago

George Davis – Richie Ashburn – Dick Allen

birtelcom
birtelcom
4 years ago

I am so glad that you guys have kept with the project I proposed and started long ago. Doug has obviously done an an absolutely fantastic job picking up the work that I used to do. There cannot be enough thanks. In case you are curious, the reason I dropped out with little warning last March was a sudden, mysterious and rather devastating attack by a syndrome called interstitial pneumonitis, an inflammation of the lungs. To save my life, doctors had to put me in a coma, from which I did not awaken for about two months. I’ve been hospitalized… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

birtelcom: Here’s wishing you the best. I hope you make a full recovery.

David P
David P
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Wow, really glad to hear that you’re all right Birtelcom!!! Best wishes for a continued recovery and a wonderful 2016!!!

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

birtelcom, it’s great to hear from you. We’ve missed you here, but fortunately we’ve had some excellent work out of the bullpen from Doug.

I add my voice to the chorus wishing you a full and speedy recovery.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Wow. Happy New Year, sir, and best wishes for health to you and your loved ones.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

birtelcom, you’re back!!!!!

We’ve been SO worried about you!

Perhaps you don’t want the focus on you, but you deserve it. We’re so glad you’re back around. Keep recovering, and we so look forward to seeing your insights around here again.

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

birtelcom, you made my day–even my month.

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Just wanted to say how great it is to hear from you again and add my best wishes for a full recovery.

Also to second your thanks do Doug for picking up the mantel and keeping the project moving forward.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Terrific to hear from you, birtelcom!! Doug has been a wonderful stalwart, but we’ve all missed the Father of the COG, and Doom is right: we’ve been worried. Like everyone else here, I was really excited to see this message from you and I hope your recovery is soon complete.

Paul E
Paul E
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Birtlecom,
Great to hear from you! Here’s to echoing everyone’s sentiments and best wishes for a continued recovery. Doug has done a great job and we’re all looking forward to your contributions soon.
Best regards,

Joseph
Joseph
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Thank you for the update, for letting Doug keep this going, and for getting better.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery and a healthy 2016 and beyond.

bells
bells
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Holy cow, that’s so great that they did save your life. I know you are saying you don’t want the focus to be on you, but the occasion calls for comment. Becoming familiar with people through writing on the internet is always strange – if they suddenly leave and you don’t know why, you’re reminded that you don’t actually really know that person, and their departure might be forever a mystery. In your case, it was certainly sad, because I enjoyed seeing your frequent writing and commentary, and it’s hard not to think the worst when a regular contributor just… Read more »

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Birtelcom, let me join everyone in wishing you a full and speedy recovery. Thank you for dropping in to the COG; it has been great fun throughout and it is hard to believe that it is almost full – kudos to you and to Doug for the whole ballgame.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

BIRTELCOM,

Let me join the chorus – it’s GREAT to hear from you after so long!! Very very sorry to hear about your extremely serious medical condition, but VERY VERY GLAD that you’ve recovered sufficiently to post to HHS. Doug and company have done a great job keeping your COG baby growing, so to speak.

You’ve got a lot of HHS reading to catch up on, ha ha. I look forward to hearing from you on HHS in the future for our informed and spirited debates.

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Birtelcom,

Glad to hear you are on the mend – Doug has kept the fires going on this awesome project of yours and we’ve had tremendous discussions that you will undoubtedly be catching up on. Look forward to your future contributions in 2016, and best wishes from all of us for a speedy recovery.

bstar
bstar
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

birtelcom: here’s to hoping you make a full recovery. Best wishes.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
4 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

YES!! Birtelcom’s back!

I can’t think of any better news than hearing from you again. My prayers are with you for your continued recovery. We all look forward to your contributions when you are feeling up to it again. All the best to you.

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
4 years ago

birtelcom: A heartfelt (or should I say lung-felt?) welcome back! Looking forward to many, many clever and insightful comments from you.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

Here’s a vote update for anyone interested (though shard’s vote above). About half the votes are in (18 ballots cast), and it’s becoming a runaway:

12 – George Davis
===============50% (9)
6 – Dick Allen, Rube Waddell
5 – Bill Dahlen
===============25% (5)
4 – Kevin Brown
3 – Richie Ashburn, Goose Goslin, Graig Nettles, Hoyt Wilhelm
2 – Andre Dawson, Rick Reuschel, Luis Tiant
===============10% (2)
1 – Fred Clarke, Wes Ferrell, Bobby Wallace

Dick Allen is really picking things up, and Hoyt Wilhelm seems unable to recover from that walloping he took in the runoff.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

Vote:

Wes Ferrell
Rube Waddell
Hoyt Wilhelm

Francisco
Francisco
4 years ago

George Davis
Rube Waddell
Fred Clarke

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago

Goslin, Wilhelm, Ferrell

mosc
mosc
4 years ago

Ferrell, Dawson, Nettles

dr-remulak
dr-remulak
4 years ago

Waddell, Nettles, Wilhelm.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
4 years ago

An all ‘Let’s Keep ‘Em On The COG Ballot”

– Luis Tiant – Red Sox bias showing…
– Fred Clarke – I am surprised at his lack of support; in 1915, when his playing career ended, he probably would be one of the top-3 retired outfielders.

Ed Delahanty would clearly be ahead of him, but who(m) else? Billy Hamilton, probably Sam Crawford? Maybe Jesse Burkett?? Even if you included active players, only Cobb and maybe Speaker would be better, but only on peak.

– Bobby Wallace – not convinced he’s a legit COG, but he deserves further discussion

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

You make a good case for Clarke, Lawrence, but I’m not too sure what you mean by the comparison with Cobb and Speaker – both are far beyond Clarke in both peak and career measures. I think the reason Clarke is in the shade is because he’s up against Davis, Wallace, and Dahlen from the same era (plus Waddell among pitchers), and his outfield position doesn’t argue for special consideration. If Clarke survives, he’ll be competing with Burkett in future rounds, which is a very interesting match-up. (Because Big Ed D’s career came to its abrupt end he won’t be… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago

epm, I think Lawrence is saying that when Clarke retired, he would have ranked above Cobb and Speaker, who were both still active and had much of their careers ahead of them. Clarke was basically done by 1911; I believe his appearances from 1913-1915 were just fill-in/cameo spots as the manager. If you rank OF’s by WAR through the 1912 season, Clarke is #2, a hair behind Delahanty. Contemporary scholars may have also considered Keeler to be Clarke’s superior. I think Clarke is a very strong candidate. I’m not convinced quite yet, but his WAR matches up well with the… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

C.C., Yes, I can see that if you move the cutoff from 1915 to 1911, though with Cobb already having won five straight batting titles, I think no one would actually have rated Clarke ahead of him even by that time (and by 1915, Cobb had blown past Clarke on all measures). Judging by the HoF outcomes 25 years later, Keeler may well have been more highly regarded than Clarke as an outfielder in their day. I agree that Clarke’s credentials are bolstered by his managerial stint – quite successful, but with a great team and owner. I’m not sure… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago

Voting right about the vote-change deadline for:

George Davis, the first AL player with 6 RBI in a single World Series
Hoyt Wilhelm, the first player with 228 career saves
Richie Dick Allen, the first Oakland A to wear number 60

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

(or about 24 hours before the vote-change deadline)

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago

Totals, through 25 ballots (oneblankspace):

14 – Davis
=============50% (13)
9 – Waddell*
7 – Allen, Wilhelm*
=============25% (7)
5 – Dahlen, Nettles*
4 – Brown*, Ferrell, Goslin*
3 – Ashburn, Clarke, Dawson, Tiant
=============10% (3)
2 – Reuschel, Wallace

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
4 years ago

Dick Allen, Luis Tiant, Bobby Wallace

aweb
aweb
4 years ago

Brown
Davis
Dawson

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Since Davis and Waddell are doing fine, and Clarke and Wallace may wind up in trouble even though they are viable CoG candidates, I’m going to switch my vote to make sure the latter two stick around. Someone else will need to take care of Ashburn and Reuschel.

Dahlen, Clarke, Wallace

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago

I am torn about Ashburn. He’s in my maybe pile and with the possibility of 4 new openings happening this year instead of the anticipated 2 keeping him in the mix becomes a consideration. I’m still back & forth on Dahlen & Wallace but I think Davis is a definite yes, if for no other reason than it would be difficult to explain why in the end we kept out the poster boy for everything that the advanced metrics crowd thought was wrong with the BBWAA since that was the seed from which this exercise grew. I am now firmly… Read more »

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
4 years ago

Wallace, Brown, Clarke

If the BBWAA provides 3-4 new slots I’m feeling Wallace should get one of them. I like Dahlen and Nettles too, but helping Brown and Clarke stay in the mix. Don’t feel Ashburn or Reuschel offer quite enough to save them, as others would still beat them out among the holdovers we have.

opal611
opal611
4 years ago

For the 1870 election, I’m voting for:
-Andre Dawson
-Rick Reuschel
-Luis Tiant

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Brown
-Goslin
-Ashburn
-Nettles
-Allen
-Waddell
-Wallace
-Clarke
-Davis
-Dahlen

Jeff B
Jeff B
4 years ago

Dawson, Wilhelm, Ashburn

mosc
mosc
4 years ago
Reply to  Jeff B

It’s not too late for Dawson! I still believe

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago

it’s kind of too bad that Jimmy Collins is getting no support, but he seems to be suffering from early third-baseman disease. I’m going very old here; Davis, Clarke, Wallace

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

I think Collins belongs in the HOF & if I were to expand the COG to the # I think belong it would include another 40 odd players, including the pre-1900 guys.