Circle of Greats 1971 Balloting Part 1

This post is for voting and discussion in the 118th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This is the first of two rounds adding to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1971. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1971-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This first group of 1971-born candidates, including those who played for 5 or fewer franchises over their careers, joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots. The second group of 1971-born candidates, who played for 6 or more franchises, will be eligible to receive your votes in the next round of balloting.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Thursday, January 21st, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Tuesday, January 19th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1971 Part 1 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1971 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The fifteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1971 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Rube Waddell (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Jesse Burkett (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Fred Clarke (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Bill Dahlen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Bobby Wallace (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1971, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR, five or fewer franchises played for):
Jason Giambi
Jorge Posada
Ryan Klesko
Rich Aurilia
Brian Giles
Mark Loretta
Ray Durham
Mike Redmond
Kevin Millar
Bill Mueller

Pitchers (born in 1971, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR, five or fewer franchises played for):
Pedro Martinez
Billy Wagner
Brian Moehler
Sterling Hitchcock
Jason Bere
Jose Contreras
Albie Lopez
Gabe White
Rich Garces
Scott Sullivan
Jamie Walker

0 0 vote
Article Rating
Subscribe
Notify of
guest
169 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I was absolutely certain that #2 was Dave Kingman but it’s not. In 1975 he came close, with 68 games in left and 58 at first (altho he only started there in 48 of those) plus another 12 at 3rd base and 3 in right field. Hmmm, who else might it be?

And just to confirm- we have 4 rounds of voting remaining (including this round)?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

It might be Nick Swisher.

brent
brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Since #1 sounds like it should be Babe Ruth, it probably isn’t (correct the Babe’s high in strikeouts was 93). So it should be the Mick then (yes he did it a couple times), but of course, there was someone before him. The correct answer is Charlie Keller in 1946 with 101 strikeouts and RBIs and 113 walks.

no statistician but
no statistician but
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Answer to #4 is Whitey Ford’s defense and Yankee stadium. Sarcasm alert.

mosc
mosc
4 years ago

But he only pitched against good teams! (as if there were many other ones most of those seasons… lol)

no statistician but
no statistician but
4 years ago
Reply to  mosc

We’re both joking, but seriously, from 1953 to 1965, the 13 years of Ford’s full-time career, the White Sox never finished worse than .525, won one pennant, finished 2nd 4 times and 3rd five times. in those years Ford was 35-21 against them with an ERA just over 2.00. He beat them four more times, twice in 1950 when they weren’t very good, and twice in 1967—his last two victories, both complete games and one a shutout—when they finished three games back of the Red Sox and the Yankees were in ninth place. When he did pitch against good teams,… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  mosc

I have mentioned here a while back that Ford started 46.3% of his starts against against teams with a .500+ winning percentage. And the majority of Yankee games were versus sub-.500 teams. He was withheld from starts at Fenway Park. Only 12 of his 43 starts against the Sox were at Fenway.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#14: George Bell who pitched from 1902-1911.

no statistician but
no statistician but
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Answer to #6 is a new HOFer.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

yeah, but there have been more bigleaguers named Harrah than Donora.

brent
brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#3 is Dave Cash (wouldn’t have guessed that one) in 1975 with the Phillies, with 213 hits, 111 runs and 40 two baggers.

mosc
mosc
4 years ago
Reply to  brent

I just looked up Snuffy Stirnweiss from the yankee war years:
1944 he had 205 hits from the keystone, but only 35 doubles

The name you can never forget!

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

And Stirnweiss is the only batting champ to lead the league in BA only on the last day of the season.

brent
brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#8 turns up some really good/great players with incredible seasons (Wagner in 1908, Rollins in 2007, Yount in 1982, Trammell in 1987), but the only two to do it in world championship seasons were Cal Ripken in 1983 and Derek Jeter in 1999.

brent
brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#10 is Bobby Knoop of the Angels who did it 5 consecutive years from 1964 to 1968.

brent
brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

OK, one more and I will stop. #11 is Earle Brucker (who??) in 1938 with the Philadelphia A’s. He hit .374 in 191 plate appearances. The HOF catchers to best Redmond’s .341 are Bill Dickey in 1943 and Gabby Hartnett in 1937.

Brent
Brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Brucker must have a story, he debuted at age 35 with the A’s and definitely could hit. I wonder if he simply toiled in the PCL (back when it was an independent league) for years before CMack bought his contract. Also, his son (Earle Jr) got a cup of coffee with the A’s as well, in the late 40s. CMack still owned the team then, so maybe he was doing Brucker a favor.

no statistician but
no statistician but
4 years ago
Reply to  Brent

Strangely enough, Brucker only rose to the PCL the year before he went to the A’s. Prior to that he played in the Western League for several years, a notch below the PCL. For three years, ages 26-28, he was out of baseball, apparently. Somehow his record reminds me of William (Bill) Thomas and Ray Perry, whose minor league careers are chronicled in the NBJHBA. These were lifetime minor leaguers, a pitcher and an infielder, who put up extraordinary numbers over long careers but never got a whiff of the majors. Bill James says—and he, I think, is correct—that Perry… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

20. (Sullivan) Dick Radatz had no starts in his career and 100 IP in 1962-63-64-65.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

Looks like Hoyt Wilhelm beat Radatz by 10 years.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

it was just an emphatic — no starts in these four seasons, and no starts in any other, either.

It’s hard to find the Most Seasons with… totals without a Play Index subscription, and Wilhelm had 6 seasons with 100+ IP / 0 GS in his career. (Plus another at 100/1 and another at 100/3.)

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

7 seasons with 100+ IP/0 GS:
Kent Tekulve
Rollie Fingers
Ron Perranoski

6 seasons:
Wilhelm
Sparky Lyle
Gene Garber

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

It can be done without the PI if you are familiar with Fangraphs and are somewhat skilled with Excel spreadsheets.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

15. (Mueller) Carney Lansford played for the Angels in 1980 and led the Red Sox and the AL in batting in 1981.

Brent
Brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I promised no more but these are too fun, I just couldn’t resist. #18 is Juan Guzman who was 18 games above .500 in his first two seasons and 6 below .500 for the rest of his career.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#13: Seth Smith and David Freese.

John Nacca
John Nacca
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Is #7 George Hendrick……..he immediately came to mind for some reason…….

John Nacca
John Nacca
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Totally forgot Carter as a Padre.

brent
brent
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#5 appears to be the last one on the board. I think the answer is Walter Johnson who finished 127 of the 136 games he relieved in for a percentage of 93.3%

Doug
Doug
4 years ago
Reply to  brent

It is Big Train, who just edged out Three Finger Brown (138/149).

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Here are some calculations for the WAR figures of holdovers plus Martinez. I’ve added a line for Ferrell that includes his “position player” WAR (I’ve called it +oWAR to fit the chart, but it’s really total WAR, with dWAR included). Burkett and Wallace have the same added lines as last round. Pitchers …Name…………P(Tot)-WAR……Peak5…Top5……WAR/9IP…WAR/Yr……ERA+…Career length Brown…………68.5 (68.3)……37.0…37.0……0.189……4.0 (17)……127……1.24 Ferrell……48.8 (61.8)……29.9…36.0……0.168……4.9 (10)……116……1.00 +oWAR…………………………………………35.8…43.4……0.212……6.2 (10) Pedro…………61.4 (59.4)……33.5…35.9……0.195……4.1 (15)……154……1.08 Reuschel…68.2 (70.1)……31.0…32.8……0.173……4.0 (17)……114……1.35 Tiant…………66.1 (66.7)……28.7…34.7……0.171……3.9 (17)……114……1.33 Waddell……61.0 (58.5)……43.9…43.9……0.185……5.9 (10)……135……1.13 Wilhelm……50.1 (47.3)……16.1…21.6……0.184……2.6 (19)……147……N/A Position Players ……Name………WAR…………Peak5…Top5……WAR/G……WAR/Yr………OPS+…Career length Allen…………58.7………31.5……36.7……0.034……4.2 (14)……156………1.0 Ashburn……63.6………31.6……32.7……0.029……4.2 (15)……111………1.3 Burkett……62.9………26.5……28.7……0.030……4.2 (15)……140………1.2 1893-………57.5………26.5……28.7……0.032……4.4 (13)……143………1.0 Clarke………67.4………22.2……26.6……0.030……3.7 (18)……133………1.3 Dahlen………75.2………22.6……29.8……0.031……4.0 (19)……110………1.4 Dawson………64.4………32.4……33.7……0.025……3.4 (19)……119………1.5 Goslin………66.1………32.5……32.8……0.029……4.1 (16)……128………1.3 Nettles……68.0………28.7……32.2……0.025……3.4 (20)……110………1.4 Wallace……70.2………28.6……31.3……0.029……4.2… Read more »

Andy
Andy
4 years ago

I believe you are using Pedro’s WAA stats rather than his WAR, which is why these stats look less remarkable.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Thank you, Andy. That was quite an error! I’m trying again – I don’t know why the formatting seems not to have worked the first time (at least in my browser), but maybe it will be better this time:

Pitchers
…Name…………P(Tot)-WAR……Peak5…Top5……WAR/9IP…WAR/Yr……ERA+…Career length
Brown…………68.5 (68.3)……37.0…37.0……0.189……4.0 (17)……127……1.24
Ferrell……48.8 (61.8)……29.9…36.0……0.168……4.9 (10)……116……1.00
+oWAR…………………………………………35.8…43.4……0.212……6.2 (10)
Pedro…………86.0 (84.0)……42.7…45.3……0.274……5.7 (15)……154……1.08
Reuschel…68.2 (70.1)……31.0…32.8……0.173……4.0 (17)……114……1.35
Tiant…………66.1 (66.7)……28.7…34.7……0.171……3.9 (17)……114……1.33
Waddell……61.0 (58.5)……43.9…43.9……0.185……5.9 (10)……135……1.13
Wilhelm……50.1 (47.3)……16.1…21.6……0.184……2.6 (19)……147……N/A

Position Players
……Name………WAR…………Peak5…Top5……WAR/G……WAR/Yr………OPS+…Career length
Allen…………58.7………31.5……36.7……0.034……4.2 (14)……156………1.0
Ashburn……63.6………31.6……32.7……0.029……4.2 (15)……111………1.3
Burkett……62.9………26.5……28.7……0.030……4.2 (15)……140………1.2
1893-………57.5………26.5……28.7……0.032……4.4 (13)……143………1.0
Clarke………67.4………22.2……26.6……0.030……3.7 (18)……133………1.3
Dahlen………75.2………22.6……29.8……0.031……4.0 (19)……110………1.4
Dawson………64.4………32.4……33.7……0.025……3.4 (19)……119………1.5
Goslin………66.1………32.5……32.8……0.029……4.1 (16)……128………1.3
Nettles……68.0………28.7……32.2……0.025……3.4 (20)……110………1.4
Wallace……70.2………28.6……31.3……0.029……4.2 (17)……105………1.3
+PWAR………76.3………28.6……31.3……0.029……4.0 (19)……105………1.3

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
4 years ago

Pedro Martinez, Kevin Brown, Dick Allen

Andy
Andy
4 years ago

Pedro Martinez, Rube Waddell, Bill Dahlen

brent
brent
4 years ago

Pedro Martinez, Goslin and Rube Waddell

Paul E
Paul E
4 years ago

Allen, Martinez, Tiant

Is # 7 (Brian “Popeye” Giles) George Hendrick ?

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
4 years ago

Martinez, Goslin, Ashburn

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

Pedro Martinez
Kevin Brown
Wes Ferrell

Again, since they’re here on the same ballot, but remember how Pedro was the best pitcher in the universe from 1997-2001? I remember – but I’m not sure I can grasp just HOW next-level Pedro was.

Pedro: 9.0, 7.2, 9.7, 11.7, 5.1
Brown: 7.0, 8.6, 6.2, 7.2, 3.1

In those years, Brown was the SECOND best pitcher on earth (a point I’ve made many, many times)… and look how huge that gap is! It’s truly astonishing how indescribably good Pedro was.

mosc
mosc
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Kevin Brown will never get my vote. Roids, Era, sucked before age 31, and he’s not well remembered for other stuff.

I remember so many discussions about “he just doesn’t like the AL” when he was with the yankees and how absurd that trend line is, especially for quality arms. Long time teammates of Palmero and Canseco before his NL resurgence, he was well versed in the era.

His numbers aren’t THAT good and you don’t see any pre/post steroid era success to point to. NL Brown’s K/BB is almost double AL versions.

mosc
mosc
4 years ago
Reply to  mosc

1992 Kevin Brown (27 years old) was the peak of his career leading the league in innings. His rate stats were pretty medicore but that durability and consistency got him 4.8 WAR. That’s all he had. I don’t believe the staggering improvement on a rate basis that came later.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  mosc

I get that many people will never see anything but steroids in Kevin Brown. But I wasn’t really posting about him – I was posting with a Pedro-appreciation post. Brown was the second best pitcher (via WAR) in that 5-year span… and look at that gap! It’s nearly a 2-WAR per year advantage for Pedro. He was just ludicrously dominant.

dr-remulak
dr-remulak
4 years ago

Posada, Martinez, Nettles. Posada might be a top-ten all-time catcher, a position that doesn’t get enough respect via WAR-type counting stats, and is under-represented (as is 3B) in the HOF and COG.

mosc
mosc
4 years ago
Reply to  dr-remulak

I’m a huge Posada fan but Top 10? 1) Lets toss Piazza and Rodriguez because of Roids 2) Buck Ewing and Roger Bresnahan are too old 3) Campanella didn’t play long enough 4) Wally Schang’s an accumulator 5) Ernie Lombardi accumulated during WWII 6) Posada’s better than Bill Freehan and Gene Tenace… because. … I can’t go on this is getting crazy I’ve STILL got em ranked 1) Bench 2) Carter 3) Fisk 4) Berra 5) Dickey 6) Hartnett 7) Mauer 8) Munson 9) Cochrane 10) Simmons 11) Posada Not convinced Buster Posey isn’t already on this list somewhere too.… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Mosc–I did a double-take when I saw Mauer on your list, but I think he’s going to be a fascinating candidate when he comes up for HOF voting. Mauer has a great slash line, and he’s only 32 and has 47.8 bWAR, but he’s been in decline for the last two years–and he has only 920 games behind the plate–143rd on the catching list. He has three more years left on that contract, and he’s still a decent low power contact hitter, but that won’t add a lot to his WAR totals. Very high peak, long and painful and early… Read more »

mosc
mosc
4 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

Over the cherry-picked 8 year OPS+ peak of Munson, he had 121. Mauer’s best consecutive 8 years he is at 139 and has an entire 138 year outside of that range. He was (assuming he never played again) a much better hitter than Munson. It’s not particularly close. Mauer’s recent 12th season (Munson only played 11) was the first season his OBP dropped below .360. A number higher than Munson’s career number. Mauer didn’t catch many games, but when he did catch he was a solid defender, solid on the basepaths, and an exceptionally tough out. I’m not sure Mauer’s… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Munson wasn’t the hitter that Mauer was, but Munson ended at 45.9 bWAR, which is pretty darn close, and even in his last season, cut short to 97 games, added 2.4 bWAR. I’m not making a case for either Munson or Posada. Just saying Mauer, if he can’t raise his game over the last three years of his contract, might well fall short. Personally, I’d like to see Mauer succeed, especially since he was such a terrific talent earlier in his career.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Re: Mauer vs. Posada, I agree 100%, mosc. Before last season, I remember reading somewhere that Mauer was “basically Jorge Posada.” I remember being incredulous. The author cited their career WAR totals, which are fairly close… you know, except that Mauer had more, had played fewer years, and had a better peak. I worry that Mauer’s precipitous decline is going to hurt people’s memories of just how good that dude was at his peak… but seriously, he was amazing. Probably not a COG-level career, but I would think (this is a Big Hall guy talking, so take that for what… Read more »

JEV
JEV
4 years ago

Pedro, Goslin, Posada

Stephen
Stephen
4 years ago

Pedro, Ashburn, Giambi

koma
koma
4 years ago

5. Kazuhiro Sasaki 201/228

Jason Giambi, Jorge Posada, Pedro Martinez

Doug
Doug
4 years ago
Reply to  koma

It’s not Sasaki.

koma
koma
4 years ago
Reply to  Doug

oops, i took the total career games instead of games in relief, so Sasaki has the highest percentage of career games finished.

koma
koma
4 years ago

7. Joe Carter played 162 games for the Padres and had 300+ games at LF, CF and RF

koma
koma
4 years ago

9. Chuck Stobbs in 1957 led the league with 20 losses posting a 5.36 ERA and pitching 2 shutouts

koma
koma
4 years ago

12. Jaime Navarro in 1997 allowed 267 Hits and had 142 SO with a SO/9 of 6.10

koma
koma
4 years ago

16. The 2003 Yankees featured Mariano Rivera(1996,2004,2005,2006), Chris Hammond(2002), Jeff Nelson(1995), Jesse Orosco(1983) and Armando Benitez(1999) besides Gabe White(2000)

koma
koma
4 years ago

17. Bobo Newsom in 1942 and Jim Tobin in 1945 had 19 losses for both leagues combined

koma
koma
4 years ago

19. George Zuverink led the AL in 1956 with 62 Games and 1957 with 56
(and Russ Van Atta led the AL for the Saint Louis Browns in 1935(53) and 1936(52) 😉

koma
koma
4 years ago

21. Brendan Donnelly had 42 decisions with 0 starts and a.762 W/L%

MJ
MJ
4 years ago

Pedro Martinez, Bill Dahlen, Bobby Wallace

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

11 ballots cast, and Posada nearly has next round locked up, with Giambi on the way. Who saw THAT coming? So far: 11 – Pedro Martinez =========100% (11) =========75% (9) =========50% (6) 3 – Goose Goslin*, Jorge Posada =========25% (3) 2 – Dick Allen*, Richie Ashburn, Kevin Brown*, Bill Dahlen, Jason Giambi, Rube Waddell* =========10% (2) 1 – Wes Ferrell, Graig Nettles*, Luis Tiant, Bobby Wallace 0 – Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Andre Dawson, Rick Reuschel, Hoyt Wilhelm (koma’s ballot is sneakily hidden in his 4:32 comment from 1/14/16. I nearly missed it, so I’m pointing it out here for… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I didn’t anticipate that Giambi and Posada would receive support. There are position player WAR figures that include them (trying another way to keep columns aligned): WAR………Pk5……Top5……WAR/G……WAR/Yr………OPS+…Career length 58.7………31.5……36.7……0.034……4.2 (14)……156………1.0……Allen 63.6………31.6……32.7……0.029……4.2 (15)……111………1.3……Ashburn 62.9………26.5……28.7……0.030……4.2 (15)……140………1.2……Burkett 67.4………22.2……26.6……0.030……3.7 (18)……133………1.3……Clarke 75.2………22.6……29.8……0.031……4.0 (19)……110………1.4……Dahlen 64.4………32.4……33.7……0.025……3.4 (19)……119………1.5……Dawson 50.4………34.7……34.7……0.022……2.7 (19)……139………1.3……Giambi 66.1………32.5……32.8……0.029……4.1 (16)……128………1.3……Goslin 68.0………28.7……32.2……0.025……3.4 (20)……110………1.4……Nettles 42.7………23.1……24.7……0.023……2.8 (15)……121………1.0……Posada 70.2………28.6……31.3……0.029……4.2 (17)……105………1.3……Wallace Even allowing for Posada’s position as a catcher, I think the support for these two newcomers is hard to justify. In Posada’s case, the only CoG member under 50 WAR is Campanella, for whom we made both a catcher allowance and a segregation allowance. This is a comparison between Posada… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago

I didn’t see this coming either. I see Posada’s closest comp among catchers as Ted Simmons and while Simmons did garner some support it was pretty minimal plus he is clearly the better of the 2 players. In fact you could pretty easily make the argument that we have passed on half a dozen better catchers than Posada already. Same goes for Giambi, who I see as kind of a Ralph Kiner or Harmon Killebrew lite. Even if you discount for the quality of competition over time a far bit or view several of our holdovers as the purview of… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Good point about “new guy support.” Honestly, I’m so used to our token votes for token players in this electorate that I kind of forgot about the existence of that effect, which is EXTREMELY well-documented in COG elections, with just a handful of players able to buck the trend – and those players are basically all at the top of the all-time vote leaderboard that I post every round. 🙂

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

Interesting, on a lot of levels. I have a few things your post makes me think of: 1. How did you do that with the columns? That is SO awesome, and we all need to know!!! 2. I THINK part of the appeal with Giambi is peak value. I am a pretty peak-heavy voter (see my support of Brown, Kevin), and I don’t have any problem with voting for a PED user (see my support of Brown, Kevin). That being said, I agree that Giambi’s career was simply not valuable enough, even overcompensating for peak value and utterly ignoring PEDs… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Doom, I’m just going to respond to #1, since I really want to think further about #3 in light of your argument and figures (I think you’re probably right on #2; I’m just surprised to see how far slightly higher peak can override significantly lower career WAR – interestingly, so far, Allen and Giambi voters are different). On formatting, all I did this time was to follow Voomo’s suggestion to put the names last, and I also composed my list in Courier font – I realize now I could have used Arial, which is what HHS formats for, since Arial… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

That little dip in the 1920’s mostly likely reflects the little kerfuffle that occurred between 1941 & 1945 plus a certain amount of normal variance.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

In the 1941-42 offseason, the Cubs were going to install lights at Wrigley Field. For some reason they donated all that steel to the military.

Joseph
Joseph
4 years ago

Martinez, Posada, Nettles.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

Since Gabe White posted a 4.4 WAR in 2000, that mark has only been topped once (Papelbon with 5.0 (in only 68 IP)).

Wait. What? Gabe White?
This is the statistical reward for 83 excellent innings with a 127.9 PPFp.

Super LOOGY Mike Myers was even better than White on that 2000 Rockie team. He earned a 2.7 in 45 IP. (Myers earned nearly half his career WAR in his two years at altitude).

T-Bone
T-Bone
4 years ago

I’ve always liked Bill Mueller, but he’s not even HOF, so

Pedro
Reuschel
D. Allen

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  T-Bone

I still remember the bidding war in my Rotisserie League that happened after his big year in Boston. It didn’t go as far over the top as it had for Rich Aurila a couple of years prior but someone still wound up being pretty disappointed for what was actually a fairly decent year for a middle infielder.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

Brian Giles, with 50.9 WAR and 7800+ PA, is not going to get many votes. But I’ll throw him a paragraph of sympathy for not getting to be a starter until age 26.

Look at his minor league numbers.
He was ready earlier.
But the Cleveland Naps were just ridiculously stacked in the outfield:
Belle, Lofton, Manny
____________________

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

The 1999 Tribe scored 1,009 runs. They did so without the services of Giles, who put up a .315/.418/.614 line with the Buccos. In this ‘what-if’ universe, I assume the Indians trade Richie Sexson instead of Giles, since he was their other big-hitting prospect (Branyan was there too, but much more raw, and I think they were too high on him to trade him). Sexson played decently in 99, a .255/.305/.514 line with 31 HR’s and 116 RBI, but I have to imagine they’d have scored even more runs with Giles and his on-base skills and superior baserunning. Man, how… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Kind of ironic. When I was growing up, at a time of previous Cleveland florescence, the Indians were the team that had brought along Feller, Garcia, Lemon, and Score . . . Of course they’d also brought along Doby, Rosen, Avila . . .

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago

They definitely developed a nice string of pitchers from the early 30’s to the mid 50’s: Ferrell, Harder, Feller, Lemon, Garcia and Score, plus some lesser ones (Willis Hudlin, Steve Gromek, Don Mossi, Ray Narleski). Now that I think about it, they developed Allie Reynolds too. No real farm systems yet, so a lot of those guys were molded by minor league coaches that had no affiliation with the Tribe, but obviously Cleveland had some great scouts. I know we had Cy Slapnicka, who signed Feller and Lemon.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Lemon, of course, was signed as a third baseman. Slapnicka signed Score too – as great a signing as Feller. If it weren’t for one line drive, Score would probably be in the CoG right now – by early May of his third season he already had produced 14.3 WAR with 9.6 SO/9IP, both ahead of Feller’s pace at a comparable point. (I remember crying when I heard what happened to him.)

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago

Lesser and Don Mossi should never be used in the same sentence.

The correct terminology is “differently awesome”.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Not to mention awesomely earsome.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
4 years ago

Hah! Hartvig, when I put Mossi in the “lesser” category, I knew that would elicit a response from you. You’re right, though, that “lesser” is not an adjective that really suits him; in his domain, Mossi bows to no other man.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

Mossi was a Tiger when I saw him, and he was certainly one tiger who completely dodged the issue of fearful symmetry.

Although I know that Hartvig is probably not Mossi – I seem to remember that dentistry was part of his resume (?), and Mossi’s bio includes no mention of that expertise – I cannot think of him as anyone else. No avatar is more compelling.

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago

No, as much as I wish ‘twer so, I most assuredly am not The Sphinx.

Paul E
Paul E
4 years ago

…..they picked up guys like David Justice, Juan Gonzalez, Travis Fryman, Matt Williams, Roberto Alomar, Marcus Grissom, Ellis Burks (IIRC) – all in their primes or with plenty left. They came close, gave up on Hargrove, but Charlie Manual certainly wasn’t going to make a difference

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
4 years ago

Pedro Martinez, Luis Tiant, Bobby Wallace As usual, the bottom of the ballot needs all the votes it can get, but I can’t miss voting for Pedro. I just noticed the Bobby Wallace and Bill Dahlen are numbers 72 and 73 in the Hall of Stats (between Nolan Ryan and Johnny Mize)- I think Dahlen needs the votes less than Wallace, but I will keep an eye out as I think he has a good case for one of our “final two”. On our list of extra credit, I think “HOF-worthy HOF-snub” is there for many COG voters. “HOF-worthy” is… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

I’m pretty convinced that some voters think that Wallace, Dahlen & Clarke belong in the Old Timers Committee category and I’m not certain that I disagree with them.

I know it’s kind of self contradictory because just like the BBWAA elected Young & Keeler we picked Young & Davis but virtually everyone else from this era selected for the Hall of Fame went in via that route. If this project was expanded to re-pick the entire Hall of Fame instead of the BBWAA choices there’s not a doubt in my mind that they would all be in.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

That is a really good point, Hartvig; these early years COG rounds are overlapping heavily with Old Timers Committee voting, and since the COG is meant to be directly comparable (competing?) with BBWAA voting it confuses our voting somewhat.

I think the “birth years/careers post 1901” COG voting system is great and don’t want to knock it, but I have to think about whether I want the Old Timers effect to change how I approach voting in these last few rounds.

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I agree that the “Old Timer” effect seems to be hurting Dahlen, Wallace and Clarke. However, the BBWAA only really went very early on Young and Keeler, who were one-of-a-kind performers. There was confusion about areas of oversight for sure. The Old Timer’s Committee grabbed Clarke quickly in 1945. He got low support from the BBWAA, but likely because their 1930’s elections were geared towards immortals, and WWII voting was awful (No one but Hornsby from 1940-44). In 1953, the Veteran’s Committee grabbed Wallace, and by that time it was acknowledged the VC was covering most of the players from… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

I agree it’s kind of a mess. It could be argued that Young made the COG based strictly on his post-1900 performance but that argument doesn’t hold for Davis. And if we leave Davis out we’re committing the same error of omission that the advanced metrics community accused the BBWAA for years. And while we can point to the Old Timers Committee when it comes to Clarke & Wallace to justify leaving them for another day, Dahlen & Burkett suffered the same fate as Davis only in their cases the HOF has yet to correct it. It’s a bit of… Read more »

David P
David P
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I wasn’t a fan of electing Davis but I can see at least 3 arguments in favor of him, vis a vis Dahlen and Wallace: 1) He clearly has more WAR than the other two and if you give him credit for 1903, then he’s above 90 WAR. 2) His two best WAR seasons were post 1900 as was his 4th best. 3) More of his value comes from his bat (277 Rbat vs 137 for Dahlen and 67 for Wallace). As for Dahlen vs Wallace, I’d probably put Wallace ahead since he has 56.9 post 1900 WAR vs only… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

One thing to keep in mind for some of these guys is that until 1904 everybody played a 140 game (or often fewer) game schedule with the exception of 1898 & 99. In his 6 years with Louisville, Clarke had 4 years where his team played 134 or fewer games. That would mean for someone like Clarke there were only 2 seasons prior to his turning 31 that he had more than 142 games to put up his numbers. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to take the caliber of competition or how that game has changed into account when we’re… Read more »

David P
David P
4 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Thanks Hartvig! I wasn’t aware that they were playing a 140ish game schedule until 1904.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

I don’t agree with the argument that the BBWAA saw old timers other than Young and Keeler as being outside their purview. Clarke was gaining significant strength in the BBWAA votes – several who were languishing beneath him in the BBWAA tallies ultimately made it, as did, for example, Hughie Jennings, very much parallel to Clarke but almost strictly a 19th century player. Jennings had gone from 12% to 25% to 37% in 1945, when the Old Timer’s Committee plucked him away from the BBWAA. I think Jennings was on a trajectory to be elected within five years or so,… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago

I just now realized that Burkett is in the HOF. I’m really surprised that he received so little support from the BBWAA given that his career numbers are so similar to Keeler. I wonder if it’s an issue of Burkett’s reputation as something of a jerk or that Keeler spent the last half of his career in New York and hung around a few years longer so he was familiar to more of the writers?

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
4 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Martinez 62.8
K. Brown 43.3
Dahlen 41.2
Reuschel 40.6
Ferrell 40.1
Wallace 38.6
Tiant 37.5
Clarke 36.4
Waddell 35.9
Allen 35.8
Nettles 35.7
Dawson 35.4
Ashburn 33.9
Goslin 31.7
Burkett 30.9
Giles 29.9
Wilhelm 28.7
Giambi 27.3
Posada 20.7
Wagner 16.8

Pedro, Brown, Allen

Kirk
Kirk
4 years ago

Hoyt Wilhelm, Rick Reuschel and Pedro Martinez

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
4 years ago

I feel kind of bad having a vote in this round, because I´ve been away from the site for so long, but here it is.

Pedro Martinez, Graig Nettles, Luis Tiant.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Never feel bad. Literally just yesterday, I was thinking, “I wonder what happened to Luis. He hasn’t been around in a while.” Good to have you back!

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Luis–glad to see you back. Was just thinking of you–we lost Luis Arroyo on January 13, who had one of the more interesting careers. Eight years four teams, one incredible 1961 season where he was 15-5, 2.19 ERA, all in relief, 29 saves, 119 IP, 3.3 bWAR. Total bWAR for career–the same 3.3 bWAR.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

I hadn’t read about Arroyo. Sorry to learn he died, but glad he lived to be 88. The thing about him, to me, is that although his career was mediocre overall, he was arguably the best pitcher on one of the greatest teams in history. His pWAR as an RP on the ’61 Yankees is only 0.5 behind Whitey Ford, with his 25-4 record, and Arroyo had 119 IP to Whitey’s 283 (Bill Stafford had 0.3 more WAR than Arroyo, but in 195 IP).

And glad to see Luis G. back. I’ve also been hoping you’d return.

Paul E
Paul E
4 years ago

Just curious what anyone thinks about Giambi versus Carlos Delgado? I believe, by the “eye test”, Delgado to be the better of the two. Disregarding steroid use, I still believe Delgado was superior. It’s close with a 138 OPS+ versus 139, however, oWAR and WAR favor Giambi by over 10%. Difference in career PA’s is approximately 3%.
Was Giambi that much better a fielder and/or baserunner? Any ideas/explanation?

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Curious about Delgado’s -5 Rbaser in 2007.
He stole 4 bags without getting caught.
His DP and XBT percentages were right at his career average.

He had his worst year at the plate, but I don’t know how that would contribute to Rbaser.
He actually had a career High in Power/Speed number.

?

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Looking at the detailed breakdown of Delgado’s baserunning stats, I think the answer may lie in fact that he was thrown out trying to advance on the bases 8 times that year (the “OOB” column in the detailed breakdown of his baserunning stats on this page: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/delgaca01-bat.shtml), 4 times of which were at home.

Compare his 2004 baserunning performance: 0-1 on SB, XBT% and GDP% near career norms, so no huge negatives there; but he was OOB 10 times, 5 times at home, and ended up with -4 Rbaser.

bstar
bstar
4 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Giambi’s bat was just a slice better, despite very similar OPS+ marks. Delgado’s OPS+ was more power-dependent while Giambi’s was more OBP-heavy. You can see it better in their respective wRC+ numbers from Fangraphs: 140 for Giambi and 135 for Delgado. That’s 5 points of wRC+/OPS+. For a full season, that’s worth about 4 runs. They each got 13-14 full seasons’ worth of PAs in their careers. 4 x 13.5 = +54 runs for Giambi. That pretty much explains the difference. Or you could just frame it as Giambi having a better peak than Delgado. Their 5 best seasons: Delgado:… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

Congratulations to the Baltimore Orioles for giving 23 million dollars a year for 7 years to a player to strikes out 200 times.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

“who” strikes out 200 times.
Sorry, so flabbergasted that I couldn’t write stragith

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
4 years ago

Doom wondered if we should have a final redemption round to bring back 3 guys prior to our “open” rounds (120-121). If Doug agrees to do so, this may muddy up the last 2 rounds or permit an overlooked soul a last opportunity, depending on your point of view. To help evaluate the possibilities, here are the top candidates by position (with WAR numbers): Catcher: Assuming Pudge gets in, we will have ten catchers. Next guys are a lower tier, I don’t see any pushing through. 1st base: Palmeiro (71.6) and McGwire (62) are the best options here. They both… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

I can’t think of anyone that you’re missing (maybe Ralph Kiner in left who I recall staying on the ballot for more than a few rounds) According to Dr. Doom’s vote tallies Eckersley and Winfield with just over 400 apiece and Minoso with just over 300 would seem to be the most likely candidates. Dewey Evans with 100 exactly is the only other player with triple-digit past support. While the 2 candidates that I think are most deserving are already on the holdover list there are at least 2 or 3 in the redemption pool that I would prefer over… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

Great list, Dave. Looking at the list of players, I do feel there are two who might go up towards the top of my list if they were added, and it makes me feel as though redemption round or two could, at least, provoke some interesting discussions, now that we’re looking back on most of these guys from a distance.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

Thanks for the look, Dave! That’s a helpful rundown of the candidates. To give my two cents about timing, I just think it would be nice to finish up 1971, and then slap on a redemption round, just to ensure that everyone has one last shot at consideration, before the Circle of Greats completes the initial phase of its mission. Your point about Winfield, Eck, McGinnity, and others is well-taken. It seems to me that those players, as well as the others you mentioned, deserve at least a SHOT at the COG before this process concludes its first run. Here’s… Read more »

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
4 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

Dave, thank you for a great discussion of positions in (and out) of the COG; it helps to confirm what I already thought: I am not keen on an additional Redemption Round now, since we only have two slots after Pudge Rodriguez. I guess I am happy with the available choices for our meager open slots. We would probably end up with many of the same players who have already fallen off. Even though I think we may have whiffed on, say, Coveleski and Lyons, adding any pitchers only jumble up the ballot even more, with its wealth of borderline… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

Figgered it’s about time for another update. Here you go, through 17 ballots (Luis Gomez):
17 – Pedro Martinez
===========100% (17)
===========100% (17)
===========100% (17)
===========100% (17)
4 – Dick Allen*, Jorge Posada
3 – Kevin Brown*, Goose Goslin*, Graig Nettles*, Luis Tiant
2 – Richie Ashburn, Jason Giambi, Rick Reuschel, Rube Waddell*, Bobby Wallace
===========10% (2)
1 – Wes Ferrell, Hoyt Wilhelm*
0 – Jesse Burkett, Fred Clarke, Andre Dawson

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

You’ve left off Bill Dahlen who should have 2 votes (and now a third with Howard Miller’s vote below)

Brendan Burke
4 years ago

I’m going to be the dickwad who snubs Pedro.

So without further ado, my ballot is Burkett, Millar, Mueller.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  Brendan Burke

I have to be honest – if someone was going to leave Pedro off, I didn’t think it would be to toss votes to two OTHER members of the ’04 team!

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

…and John Burkett, who pitched with Pedro on the ’02-03 Red Sox?

Brendan Burke
4 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

It’s a different J. Burkett.

bstar
bstar
4 years ago

Pedro, Wilhelm, Dawson

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 years ago

Martinez, Goslin, Wilhelm

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago

20 votes are now in and it’s clear that Pedro will be our choice, and with an anticipated four votes necessary to remain on the ballot for players without guaranteed rounds, we’ll surely have an additional candidate in the pool next round: Posada – assuming that there are no vote changes that diminish his total. Five other holdovers who don’t yet have four votes are already guaranteed. The following holdovers need votes to continue as CoG candidates: Needing 4 votes: Clarke Needing 3 votes: Burkett, Dawson, Ferrell Needing 2 votes: Ashburn, Reuschel, Wallace I continue to favor letting go of… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

I’m not certain this is what you’re referring to, but I did a bit of analysis of Ferrell and basically concluded Ferrell’s bat+pitch is equal to Koufax’s bat+pitch. The original comment is here.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

It was, indeed, your comment on Ferrell I was referring to, Doom, but the link didn’t make it, and I haven’t located it by searching back (is there any way to search the archive conveniently anymore?). Could you repost the link?

Hartvig corrected the vote totals by adding Dahlen, whom I left out. So at 23 votes (through Hartvig’s, below), those in danger of falling of the ballot now need votes as follows:

Needing 4 votes: Clarke
Needing 3 votes: Burkett, Dawson
Needing 2 votes: Reuschel, Ferrell
Needing 1 vote: Dahlen, Wallace, Ashburn

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

I must’ve typed something wrong in the hyperlink. Here’s the link text for you:

http://www.highheatstats.com/2016/01/circle-of-greats-1867-69-balloting/#comment-108129

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

Also, perhaps it was intentional on your part, but others receiving votes who also have a shot go as follows:

Needing 2 votes: Jason Giambi
Needing 3 votes: Kevin Millar, Bill Mueller

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Yes, I was only addressing holdovers, otherwise there are many on the 1971 list who still need votes.

Howard Miller
4 years ago

I believe this is only my fourth vote, so I don’t believe I’ve earned any right to vote strategically. Straight up, I vote for:

Pedro Martinez
Bill Dahlen
Bobby Wallace

shard
shard
4 years ago

Pedro Martinez – Richie Ashburn – Dick Allen

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago

Martinez, Ferrell, Nettles My argument for Ferrell is the same as it’s always been. He wasn’t a good hitting pitcher, he was a good hitter period. Factor in hitting for both and Ferrell’s peak is not only every bit as impressive as Koufax’s, it’s also 2 years longer even though arm troubles effectively ended both of their careers at age 30. The object of the game is to win. We factor in what a position player did not only with his bat but with this glove and on the base paths as well. I don’t see any reason for not… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
4 years ago

Ferrell, Martinez, Tiant

First time I’ve submitted an all-pitcher ballot.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
4 years ago

So deciding who to vote for…

H.Wilhelm — retired as the career leader in saves
P.Martinez — son of the Yankees (11 career losses against NYY, 11 L vs. ATL with a higher ERA)
J.Contreras — even though he could not finish 2005 ALCS Game 1, he was dominant

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

Exactly 25 ballots in (oneblankspace), here are the results so far:

24 – Pedro Martinez
==============75% (20)
==============50% (13)
==============25% (7)
5 – Dick Allen*
4 – Goose Goslin*, Graig Nettles*, Jorge Posada, Luis Tiant, Hoyt Wilhelm*
3 – Richie Ashburn, Kevin Brown*, Bill Dahlen, Wes Ferrell, Bobby Wallace
==============10% (3)
2 – Jason Giambi, Rick Reuschel, Rube Waddell*
1 – Jesse Burkett, Jose Contreras, Andre Dawson, Kevin Millar, Bill Mueller
0 – Fred Clarke

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
4 years ago

Vote:

Wes Ferrell
Pedro Martinez
Hoyt Wilhelm

opal611
opal611
4 years ago

For the 1971 election, I’m voting for:
-Pedro Martinez
-Andre Dawson
-Rick Reuschel

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Tiant
-Brown
-Goslin
-Ashburn
-Nettles
-Allen
-Waddell
-Wallace
-Clarke
-Dahlen
-Burkett

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago

Anyone interested in a game of Strat-O? NYT article on new digital initiative
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/18/technology/strat-o-matic-builds-out-its-digital-game-roster.html?ref=baseball&_r=0

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

That’s pretty cool!

Hartvig
Hartvig
4 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

I was part of a group that did an on-line Strat-O-Matic (or something similar) game where we played every season from 1920 until the late 1990’s. You drafted your original team the first season and then every year added from the new players coming into the league. We could set our lineups & rotations and then do as little or as much as we wanted to micromanage for various contingencies (lineups, hitters, pitchers vs left/right, reliever usage, all sorts of different permeations) and then the guy who ran the league would play the season over about a weeks time so… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
4 years ago

I’m still in the same place I was the last voting round–not really know what I’m doing with the oldest of players, and being distrustful of ancient fielding metrics. Considered Wallace and Dahlen for the third spot, but can’t get my arms around it. The problem I have with Dahlen is something I think makes me a Luddite. I look at his raw stats, and I’m just not overwhelmed–couple that with the excellent points made by many that the more modern player is in a far more competitive environment, and for the same reason I dropped Wallace after one round,… Read more »

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
4 years ago

Vote:
Reuschel, Dahlen, Ashburn

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

Another vote update, because vote change time is done. So here’s what I’ve got for us so far, through Mike L, the 28th ballot: 27 – Pedro Martinez ==============75% (21) ==============50% (14) ==============25% (7) 5 – Dick Allen*, Luis Tiant, Hoyt Wilhelm* 4 – Wes Ferrell, Goose Goslin*, Graig Nettles*, Jorge Posada 3 – Richie Ashburn, Kevin Brown*, Bill Dahlen, Rick Reuschel, Rube Waddell*, Bobby Wallace ==============10% (3) 2 – Andre Dawson, Jason Giambi 1 – Jesse Burkett, Jose Contreras, Kevin Millar, Bill Mueller 0 – Fred Clarke Ashburn, Dahlen, Reuschel, Wallace, Dawson, Giambi, Burkett, Contreras, Millar, Mueller, and Clarke… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
4 years ago

Dang it, Brendan! It looks like you were typing while I was tabulating! Revised vote update:

27 – Pedro Martinez
==============75% (22)
==============50% (15)
==============25% (8)
5 – Dick Allen*, Luis Tiant, Hoyt Wilhelm*
4 – Richie Ashburn, Bill Dahlen, Wes Ferrell, Goose Goslin*, Graig Nettles*, Jorge Posada, Rick Reuschel
3 – Kevin Brown*, Rube Waddell*, Bobby Wallace
==============10% (3)
2 – Andre Dawson, Jason Giambi
1 – Jesse Burkett, Jose Contreras, Kevin Millar, Bill Mueller
0 – Fred Clarke

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
4 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Always happy to be a source of confusion.