Quiz: some of these guys are not like the others (solved)

Here’s a list of some of the all-time great sluggers, plus a few others in a different class. Your task is to identify the career accomplishment shared only by these retired players.

  1. Babe Ruth
  2. Mark McGwire
  3. Barry Bonds
  4. Jim Thome
  5. Adam Dunn
  6. Russell Branyan
  7. Dave Kingman
  8. Rob Deer

Congratulations to Elkboy! (and welcome to HHS). He knew that only these retired players recorded Isolated Power higher than Batting Average in a 3000 PA career. More after the jump.

Here are our quiz players with their career stats.

Rk Player ISO BA TB PA From To R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO OBP SLG OPS
1 Babe Ruth .348 .342 5793 10622 1914 1935 2174 2873 506 136 714 2214 2062 1330 .474 .690 1.164
2 Mark McGwire .325 .263 3639 7660 1986 2001 1167 1626 252 6 583 1414 1317 1596 .394 .588 .982
3 Barry Bonds .309 .298 5976 12606 1986 2007 2227 2935 601 77 762 1996 2558 1539 .444 .607 1.051
4 Jim Thome .278 .276 4667 10313 1991 2012 1583 2328 451 26 612 1699 1747 2548 .402 .554 .956
5 Adam Dunn .253 .237 3371 8328 2001 2014 1097 1631 334 10 462 1168 1317 2379 .364 .490 .854
6 Russell Branyan .253 .232 1423 3398 1998 2011 405 682 143 8 194 467 403 1118 .329 .485 .814
7 Dave Kingman .242 .236 3191 7429 1971 1986 901 1575 240 25 442 1210 608 1816 .302 .478 .780
8 Rob Deer .222 .220 1717 4513 1984 1996 578 853 148 13 230 600 575 1409 .324 .442 .766
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/26/2016.

To appear on this list, players must have averaged better than two bases per hit. Mark McGwire leads the way in that stat, averaging 2.24 bases per hit.

These are the active players meeting the PA requirement and currently averaging 1.95 or more bases per hit.

Rk Player ISO BA TB H PA From To Age R 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO OBP SLG OPS
1 Giancarlo Stanton .277 .269 1437 709 3033 2010 2016 20-26 406 152 9 186 479 361 862 .361 .546 .908
2 Ryan Howard .256 .261 2813 1421 6237 2004 2016 24-36 819 267 21 361 1144 688 1748 .347 .517 .865
3 Chris Davis .252 .254 1614 811 3592 2008 2016 22-30 491 168 4 209 562 338 1116 .330 .506 .836
4 Mark Reynolds .222 .230 1910 973 4866 2007 2016 23-32 620 197 13 238 666 557 1537 .324 .452 .776
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/26/2016.
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Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago

I’m sure it’s there true outcomes related, because these are the all-time leaders.

Doug
Doug
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Actually it’s not TTO-related, or only very indirectly to one of the three.

John
John
7 years ago

Dunn, Kingman and Deer had prodigious strike out totals. Is it something connected with that?

elkboy
elkboy
7 years ago

Career slugging percentage more than double their career batting average?

brp
brp
7 years ago
Reply to  elkboy

This seems like it would be close, I got 9 results on the PI (not subscriber so don’t know who they were).

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 years ago
Reply to  brp

The 9 players are the 8 on Doug’s list plus Giancarlo Stanton who is still active. The answer is SLG > twice BA with 3000+ PA and inactive. The answer can be found without a PI subscription. Set the PI as follows:
Combined Seasons
SLG > 2*BA
Active: No
PA> 120
Sort by By PA in ascending order

The answer can also be determined by using Fangraphs plus Excel spreadsheets.

Doug
Doug
7 years ago

I’ll give it to Elkboy.

A simpler formulation is retired players with ISO greater than BA in 3000 PA career.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago

This is really interesting. I guess I was off base with my initial suggestion. However, it’s not that surprising that the high-TTO guys end up here. It will be really interesting to see if Ryan Howard gets here by the end of his career. Right now, he’s at a .261 BA and a .256 ISO. He spent much of his career with ISO>BA. It flipped in 2014 when he decided he didn’t have any power anymore. But still, I won’t be surprised if it flips back again before he retires.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Mike Schmidt was also very close. As late as 1985, he had ISO>BA, and following his MVP season in 1986, they were both .268. Too many singles in 1987 buried him into a hole he couldn’t climb out of.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Gorman Thomas and Harmon Killebrew are also very close: THOMAS: .223 ISO, .225 BA KILLEBREW: .253 ISO, .256 BA Babe Ruth is the only one of the nine above with a BA (way) over .300, of .342; Barry Bonds is close at a .298 BA. …Just another of the countless ways to reinforce Ruth’s unique greatness. Obviously, the lower the BA is, the less impressive this feat is; after Ruth/ Bonds/ Thome/ McGwire, I don’t think you’d call any of the five sluggers ‘great’ hitters. Still, quite fascinating – thanks, Doug! A somewhat related diversion would be who comes closest… Read more »

Daniel Longmire
Daniel Longmire
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

This is why I’m of the opinion that the contemporary approach to hitting will inevitably have to change in the modern environment, with its focus on power pitching. So many hitters are still of the belief that the best way to challenge these flamethrowers is with harder swings and a more aggressive approach, and we see the results of that with ever-climbing K totals and shrinking walks (see Doug’s earlier post on this). Strikeouts create zero chances for runner advancement, and put no pressure on the defense, so the newer generation of hitters are quantifiably less effective at manufacturing runs.… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
7 years ago

Daniel:

I haven’t searched everywhere, but I’d guess J. Dimaggio would be at the top of the live ball era list in this new statistic of yours: 851/369 or 2.306 XBH/K.

Some others:
Yogi—728/414 or 1.758
G. Brett—1119/906 or 1.235
And—surprise
A. Pujols—1195/990 or 1.177.

The fact that Puhols has been able to be a slugger and still have reasonable K totals, even in his decline, says something in support of your premise.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 years ago

Here are the top 5 XBH/K ratios for players with 3000+ PA from 1920 and on.
5.22 ….. Tris Speaker
4.85 ….. Joe Sewell
3.50 ….. Tommy Holmes
3.44 ….. Stuffy McInnis
3.28 ….. Sam Rice
Holmes is the only one with all his PA after 1940.

no statistician but
no statistician but
7 years ago

Richard:

Is there anyone, though, with some career-long home run pop—Holmes’s 1945 season is an anomaly—who bests Dimaggio?

Or a similar player later who bests Berra, Brett, or Pujols? I’m asking because you’ve got the skills and access to track this and I don’t.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 years ago

Reply to post 14. Here are the top 10 for players with 300+ HR.

2.39 ….. Joe DiMaggio
1.98 ….. Stan Musial
1.76 ….. Yogi Berra
1.58 ….. Ted Williams
1.54 ….. Johnny Mize
1.51 ….. Lou Gehrig
1.49 ….. Rogers Hornsby
1.48 ….. Chuck Klein
1.35 ….. Al Simmons
1.23 ….. George Brett

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
7 years ago

According to the Play Index, only 40 players in major-league history with more than 100 plate appearances have compiled extra-base hits at more than twice the rate of strikeouts. The skill translates well enough into overall offensive effectiveness that 32 of these players got more than 3,000 career plate appearances. It really is an emblem of old-school baseball. The most recent of these players (Nellie Fox) retired in 1965. The full list: Mike Schemer (1945-1946), 115 PA, 5 XBH, 1 K, 5.000 ratio Joe Sewell (1920-1933), 8333 PA, 553 XBH, 114 K, 4.850 ratio Tommy Holmes (1942-1952), 5563 PA, 427… Read more »

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
7 years ago

Following up on my long post, Denny Doyle in 1975 established a career high in extra-base hits (27) in a season when he had the fewest plate appearances of any season in his big-league career (353). I wonder how many other players have ever accomplished the same feat.

Daniel Longmire
Daniel Longmire
7 years ago

Wow, I didn’t expect this much of a response! Thanks for the research, everyone (esp. Kahuna’s exhaustive work). Pujols as the modern leader doesn’t surprise me too much, as he hasn’t exceeded 76 K since his rookie season. I’m actually shocked that Gwynn managed NINE 2+ XBH/K seasons, but Boggs could never muster a single one, considering his knack for doubles and puny strikeout totals.

A small correction, NSB: Pujols actually has 1165 XBH, but the ratio you quote is correct, so I’m assuming there was a slip of the finger. :^)

Doug
Doug
7 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Lawrence’s guess is correct.

Gavvy Cravath does have the highest ISO to BA ratio (0.67) among players with 3000 PA from 1893 to 1919.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
7 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Due to the vastly decreased frequency of HRs pre-1920, I should’ve set the ratio of ISO to BA much lower for predominantly pre-1920 players – perhaps 40%, or maybe even lower. Eyeballing some of the most prolific pre-1920 EXBH batters, even Cobb, Speaker, Wagner and Delahanty don’t get much over 40%.

Doug
Doug
7 years ago

Responding to Kahuna Tuna @17. Interesting question about establishing a career high in XBH in lowest PA season. I tweaked that question a bit to look only at 300 PA seasons since 1920, and only at players with at least 5 such seasons. Surprisingly (to me), I found 16 others like Doyle including one of the quiz players (Rob Deer). Here they are: Jim Leyritz actually had his career high in XBH in the following strike-shortened 1994 season, with 29 XBH in 293 PA. None of these players were like Doyle in having no seasons under 300 PA; the closest… Read more »

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
7 years ago

Denny Doyle—one of a kind: Only player since 1920 with five or more 300+-PA seasons to achieve his season high in XBH in the same season in which his 300+ plate appearances was his absolute career low. Just as I’d suspected. (-;þ Thanks, Doug.