Circle of Greats 2018 Redemption Round

This Circle of Greats (COG) vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle. Instead, this round of voting will:
   – select three players who will be restored back to the main ballot after having been previously dropped from eligibility
   – select seven more players who will initially populate a secondary ballot to be used to supplement the primary COG ballot in future rounds of COG voting.

As with earlier redemption rounds, this is an opportunity for voters to reconsider past candidates who have previously fallen off the regular induction ballots. This redemption round is being conducted prior to the final three rounds of COG balloting for candidates born in 1973.

In this vote you may include on your ballot any major league baseball player who:
   –   was born before 1973; and
   –   played a majority of his career games since 1901 or compiled 20 WAR since 1901; and
   –   has not been elected to the Circle of Greatsand
   –   is not on the ballot for the 1973 Part 1 COG Balloting also being conducted this week

For this round of voting, you must vote for five (5) and only five players to cast a qualifying ballot.  The three players who appear on the most ballots cast will be restored to eligibility for the next round of COG voting. The next seven players, including ties, with the highest number of votes will populate the COG secondary ballot. To assist you with your selections, career stats for the most eligible candidates are provided here.

Unlike prior redemption rounds, only three players will be restored to the ballot, NOT the top 3 and ties. If more than 3 players are tied for the 3 highest vote totals, the tie-breaker process will be to discard ballots, starting with the last ballot cast, until the tie is broken. So, vote early as your ballot could be discarded if it is the last, or among the last, to be cast.

In future COG rounds of balloting, two votes will be conducted:
   one vote to elect to the COG one player from the primary ballot
   one vote to elevate to the primary ballot one player currently on the secondary ballot

Here are the proposed rules concerning the secondary ballot election:
 the player winning the secondary ballot will be restored to the primary ballot for the next round of COG balloting
 players dropping from the primary ballot will now drop to the secondary ballot, and thus become eligible to be restored to the primary ballot in a future COG election
 players appearing on fewer than 10% of the secondary ballots cast will drop from the secondary ballot and will only become COG-eligible again if elected in a future Redemption round
 future redemption rounds will occur when there are three or fewer players on the secondary ballot

The deadline to cast your ballots in this redemption round is Sunday night, February 4th at 11:59PM EST. You can change your votes until 11:59PM EST on Friday night, February 2nd.  You can keep track of the vote tally in this redemption round here: COG 2018 Redemption Round Vote Tally.

Leave a Reply

111 Comments on "Circle of Greats 2018 Redemption Round"

Notify of
avatar
Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
e pluribus munu
Guest

Thanks for devising a way to address our issues with the CoG, Doug. I’m looking forward to assessing the 342 players you’ve offered us for consideration!

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Vote:

Buddy Bell
Stan Coveleski
Andre Dawson
Dennis Eckersley
Don Sutton

Hartvig
Guest
Here’s at least a partial list of players who have received some support- to the best of my recollection- in the past who are not in the COG, based on career WAR. Ted Lyons Rafael Palmeiro Red Ruffing Fred Clarke Don Sutton Don Drysdale Dwight Evans Buddy Bell Willie Randolph Andre Dawson Reggie Smith Billy Williams Vic Willis Dennis Eckersley Hal Newhouser Ken Boyer Dave Cone Tommy John Mark McGwire Sal Bando Early Wynn Stan Coveleski Jesse Burkett Jim Bunning Joe McGinnity Enos Slaughter Kirby Puckett Minnie Minoso Ted Simmons Larry Doby Ralph Kiner Lou Brock Dizzy Dean Satchel Paige… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest

And only now do I realize that Doug already gave us a link to an even more inclusive list in his article.

mosc
Guest

Yeah but google spreadsheets are blocked for some of us. Thank you!

ThickieDon
Guest

Thanks for the list!

A lot of greats there to consider. It will be a few days until I have narrowed down to 5.

Hartvig
Guest

My vote:

Ted Lyons
Buddy Bell
Andre Dawson
Jessie Burkett
Ted Simmons

no statistician but
Guest
I’m going to put five names into play, so to speak, in spite of the fact that I plan to return to being a commentator, not a voter in the final COG ballots. These five players are worthy of reconsideration, I think, because they were impact players whose performance, in my estimation, raised them above the impression of their bare statistics. In chronological order: 1) Mordecai Brown. One point of many that could be made: in 12 qualifying seasons he finished in the top ten in ERA, ERA+, and FIP nine times. 2) Ted Lyons. Pitching for a different franchise… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest

Good catch on Brown. I completely whiffed on him because I thought he had already been elected.

I see I also missed what must be one of the top 4 or 5 vote getters among those not already in- Rick Rueschel.

Hub Kid
Guest

I’m voting for:

Fred Clarke,
Dwight Evans
Ted Lyons
Satchel Paige
Reggie Smith

e pluribus munu
Guest
I’m not ready to vote yet, but I appreciate nsb’s list, particularly Reggie Smith, whom I might have overlooked otherwise (Brown and Lyons were and are on my radar). And I’m glad Hartvig listed Paige before defaulting to Doug’s list. Hub Kid has picked up on Paige and I’m looking forward to reviving the debate we’ve had on the appropriateness of granting Paige leeway. mosc recently raised the issue of the intrinsic limits of all the pre-1947 records because of the gap of segregation that they cover up. I think one response to that issue is to waive technical criteria… Read more »
JEV
Guest

Drysdale
Mordecai Brown
Sheffield
Doby
Fred Clarke

Dr. Doom
Guest
Thanks for doing this, Doug. Here are my five: 1. Don Drysdale – I’ve voted for 106 unique players in COG voting. 101 of them are in, 4 of them are currently on the ballot, and the other is Don Drysdale. I’d like to see him get another shot. 2. Ted Simmons – The best pure catcher we haven’t elected. I think we’re light on catchers, and I think he belongs. We (myself included) need to do a better job of giving a “catcher bonus” when we vote. 3. Rick Reuschel – I’m still very suspicious that like 15% of… Read more »
Doug
Guest

To your point about Reuschel, he is one of 33 pitchers since 1901 with exactly one 9 WAR season. Half of them (17) had at least one other season of 6.5 WAR and half (including Reuschel) didn’t. So, maybe not that unusual that he would have one season standing out so strongly as his best.

FWIW, Hall of Stats has Reuschel comfortably included with a 137 score.

e pluribus munu
Guest
I posted a version of this in the morning, but I got a message that it was being “moderated,” and it hasn’t posted. I know my messages are often immoderate, but I’m trying again nevertheless . . . I’m not yet sure of my list of five, but I want to comment on Ted Lyons’ record. When I was young, I thought Lyons’ W-L record of 260-230 was shabby for a Hall of Fame pitcher. I didn’t realize the weight he was carrying: during his 19 years as a regular starter for the White Sox, his .533 percentage contrasted with… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
When Satchel Paige was on the CoG ballot in the past, I wrote several posts in support of his candidacy. He stayed on the ballot a while, but it didn’t work out. I’d like to see him get another shot, and I want to lay out the case for him as best I can, starting with the reasons against placing him back on the ballot and giving him another shot. The case against Paige (as I understand it): (1) The CoG election process is governed by a set of rules that include criteria of eligibility (ten seasons in the Majors… Read more »
Doug
Guest

Great stuff, epm.

Makes one wonder what other Negro league stars didn’t get a chance because they didn’t have the “right attitude”.

no statistician but
Guest
Paige, according to his bio, was great at creating a legend about himself, mixing myth with reality, claiming he kept an accurate record of all his performances, showing some of his jottings to reporters that varied considerably on a second showing, boasting about things that obviously were not true. Independent of his other behavior, this aspect of his character, the bullshitting con man, can hardly have enhanced his likability or credibility. When I was in graduate school I knew a fellow student who was half genius and half bullshitter, and you never knew until sometime later upon verification if what… Read more »
mosc
Guest

Who he really was is one of the best pitchers age 40+ ever to play baseball and that hardly came out of nowhere.

e pluribus munu
Guest
Ready to vote. Paige Lyons Brown Coveleski R. Smith Obviously, I feel most strongly about Paige and Lyons, and I won’t repeat why here. There are lots of very good players on Doug’s list of 342 (which doesn’t even include Paige), but really few that I think are both CoGworthy and who stand a chance of election, based on their track record before. Brown dropped off the ballot fairly quickly after appearing in the 111th Round. I think Hartvig was initially a strong supporter (I wasn’t), but he questioned Brown’s high number of unearned runs. Having now calculated league UER… Read more »
mosc
Guest

Satchel Paige
Monte Irvin (I have half a thought that he actually got voted IN? He does make the 20 WAR critera unlike Paige)
Ted Simmons (I agree catchers are under-represented and he’s clearly the one missing)
Andre Dawson (29 WAR in 4 years is pretty rare folks. Also I don’t penalize him for his age 20 or 38+ seasons like WAR does)
Don Drysdale

e pluribus munu
Guest
Irvin not only wasn’t voted in, he didn’t make the 10% cut when he became eligible in the 64th Round (he received about 6%). But Irvin was on the ballot alongside Campy, who just squeaked by with 11%, and, of course, they presented similar issues, with Campanella being far better known and holding three MVPs. There was a lot of discussion about Irvin and might-have-beens, and perhaps without Campy on the ballot, Irvin’s candidacy would have stayed alive and grown. (I haven’t researched how he fared in subsequent redemption rounds.) When we elected Campanella, we made a type of double-adjustment… Read more »
no statistician but
Guest
We can’t extrapolate backwards, but—Monte Irvin as a 31 year old rookie in 1950 batted .299 in 110 games with 15 HRs, 61 runs and 66 RBIs, OPS+ of 131. The following year, playing full time, he put up slightly better numbers, .312, 24 dingers, 94 runs, 121 league leading RBIs, and 147 as his OPS+. Injured in 1952, he was limited to 136 PAs, but his production was about the same. In 1953, in 502 PAs, he batted .329, with 21 HRs, 97 RBIs, OPS+ of 141. Even allowing for his 93 rather indifferent PAs in 1949, his 162… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

Good memory, nsb. The player in the Hornsby story was Bobby Young. I read the book in 1962 too, but my memory is no better than yours — it’s sitting here next to me, and I didn’t actually recall Young’s name till I flipped to page 232. But I never forgot the gist of that story and it influenced me in life.

Brent
Guest

Wow, no way to do this with any degree of clarity. OK, how about this: Mordecai Brown and 4 players I think that should be considered with Nettles’ candidacy: Boyer (Ken), Bell (Buddy), Bando, and Darrell Evans.

Doug
Guest

Apropos of nothing in particular, I notice that there is currently only once COG pitcher (Bert Blyleven) born in the 14 years from 1948 to 1961, a notable dearth (only comparable gap is having only two COG hurlers born from 1892 to 1907).

Reuschel and Eckersley, both over 60 WAR, are probably the leading contenders of pitchers born in this period, followed by:
50-59 WAR: Tanana, Stieb, Hershiser, Langston
45-49 WAR: Dennis Martinez, Key, Guidry, Viola, Steve Rogers, Blue
40-44 WAR: Morris, Welch, Candiotti, Gossage, Darwin, Candelaria

A sizable number of very good pitchers, but perhaps only a few great ones.

Mike L
Guest

Doug, that’s too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence. It doesn’t make sense for 14 years of a gene pool to produce only very good, but not great. Three possibilities-usage, rule changes, or something baked into the way we calculate. One thing we can say is that the strike zone was changed in 1969, as was the height of the mound.

e pluribus munu
Guest
I’m not sure it’s statistically significant. There are only 2 CoG pitchers born during the 12-year period 1923-34 (Roberts and Ford), then 10 over the 13-year period 1935-47 (Gibson, Koufax, Marichal, Perry, Niekro, Jenkins, Seaver, Carlton, Palmer, Ryan). The latter ten are the crew that dealt with the 1969 changes. Then, after the 14-year/1-electee “Blyleven Gap,” we have 9 CoG pitchers in a 10-year birth span (Clemens, Johnson, Maddux, Schilling, Glavine, Smoltz, Mussina, Rivera, Martinez). Basically, what you have among CoG pitchers is two clusters (1935-47; 1962-71) contributing 19 of the 36 electees, and 6 more are clustered in the… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest
The one position that I think that there is a significant gap that we needed to address was third base. We have one third baseman in the COG who played prior to 1948, Home Run Baker, and his candidacy was fairly controversial. There are maybe 10 other candidates for serious consideration even if we expand our search to include pre-1900 players. 1) Deacon White- he was actually a catcher in the prime of his career but since that was in the pre-glove, pre-facemask, pre-shinguard, etc era when catchers only played in about half of their teams games he wound up… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
I think we shouldn’t be welcoming players into the CoG because they fill some sort of lacuna, they should only be welcomed because they were roundly great. If there are few pitchers born 1948-62 who were roundly great, then we’re doing our job right if we have only those few (or one) in the Circle. If there were few roundly great third basemen in the pre-War era, then there ought to be few pre-War third basemen in the Circle — and I think, in fact, we have that right. Here’s something to think about (I’m thinking about it because I… Read more »
Mike L
Guest

This is a good point. There are times when there seem to be either a surplus of great players at a position, or a dearth. We don’t have to find “someone’ if performance doesn’t support it.

Hartvig
Guest
I totally agree that talent at certain positions often comes in clusters. From the mid-50’s until the late 70’s there were no stand out shortstops then the next 20 years brought us almost half of the shortstops in the COG (I’m assuming that Jeter & ARod will get in when their time comes). And there are perfectly reasonable explanations for gaps like that. Chance. Changes in the rules or style of play. War. But that wasn’t exactly what I was getting at. And I’m certainly not arguing that we should go back and put a bunch of pre-WW2 third baseman… Read more »
Rich
Guest

Billy Williams Jim Bunning Lou Brock Satchel Paige Early Wynn

Paul E
Guest

Lyons
Paige
Williams
Sutton
Simmons

Per most of the “objective” statistical measurements, an awful lot of these guys are awfully similar

Josh Davis
Guest
Ken Boyer Ted Simmons Hal Newhouser Kirby Puckett Orel Hershiser Boyer and Simmons are two who were tops at underappreciated positions. Newhouser’s 1944-1946 are amazing and I think he matches up with the very best of his era. Puckett and Hershiser are guys I associate with the very best of baseball in the late 1980’s and early 90’s. Their peaks were perhaps not as long as some others (Puckett’s cut short by injury), but I’d like to think they cast an oversized shadow over baseball in those years. I’d actually include Don Mattingly in that group as well, but I… Read more »
Dr. Doom
Guest

RIP Oscar Gamble.

e pluribus munu
Guest

Thanks for alerting us, Doom. I hadn’t seen this news. People remember the hair, but his energy in the batter’s box is what I think of first. He was different.

e pluribus munu
Guest
For those who have already voted, we’re 48 hours from the deadline for submitting a revised vote (Friday 11:59pm), with the final voting deadline on Sunday evening. I count 12 ballots submitted so far, with 28 different players named. Here’s the way those votes appear to have been cast according to my tabulation (the top three names will move back on the CoG ballot, and the next seven finishers — or more, if a tie for the final slot occurs — will form the initial pool of the secondary ballot (along with vote-getters from CoG Round 125 who fail reach… Read more »
Andy
Guest

I’ll go with:
Stan Coveleski
Don Sutton
Jim Edmonds
Ken Boyer
Andre Dawson

Doug
Guest

Results after 13 votes.

5 – Satchel Paige, Andre Dawson, Ted Lyons, Ted Simmons
= = = = = = Main Ballot = = = = = =
4 – Mordecai Brown, Ken Boyer
3 – Buddy Bell, Stan Coveleski, Reggie Smith, Don Sutton, Don Drysdale
= = = = = = Secondary Ballot = = = = = =
2 – Jim Bunning, Fred Clarke, Billy Williams
1 – Sal Bando, Lou Brock, Jesse Burkett, Larry Doby, Dennis Eckersley, Jim Edmonds, Darrell Evans, Dwight Evans, Orel Hershiser, Monte Irvin, Minnie Minoso, Hal Newhouser, Kirby Puckett, Rick Reuschel, Gary Sheffield, Early Wynn

e pluribus munu
Guest
Doug, I think you dropped Lyons (5) and listed Boyer twice (should be at 4). On the other hand, I screwed up too: I had Evans at 2 after 12 votes, when, in fact, two Evans’s (Dwight & Darrell) were each at 1, a distinction you saw. Here’s a corrected (I think) list, after 14 votes, including yours, with “/” indicating where a current tie-breaker would fall: ===================Leading three=================== 5 – Lyons, Paige, Simmons / Dawson ==================Next seven + ties================= 4 – M. Brown, K. Boyer, Drysdale, Sutton 3 – B. Bell, Coveleski, R. Smith 2 – Bunning, F. Clarke,… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

Whoops! I forgot to check where to draw the redemption boundary: it’s changed.

===================Leading three===================
5 – Lyons, Paige, Simmons / Dawson
==================Next seven + ties=================
4 – M. Brown, K. Boyer, Drysdale, Sutton
3 – B. Bell, Coveleski, R. Smith
============Currently short of redemption====================
2 – Bunning, F. Clarke, Eckerskley, Reuschel, B. Williams
1 – Bando, Brock, Burkett, Doby, Edmonds, Da. Evans, Dw. Evans, Hersheiser, Irvin, Minoso, Newhouser,
Puckett, Randolph, Sheffield, E. Wynn

Doug
Guest

My vote.

Don Drysdale
Don Sutton
Dennis Eckersley
Rick Reuschel
Willie Randolph

mosc
Guest

Willie Randolph is another who’s getting criminally under-rated in this whole thing. Oh well, I apparently gave a shout-out vote to Monte Irvin because nobody else believes but me so sorry Willie!

no statistician but
Guest

mosc:

If I’d had a sixth vote it would have gone to Irvin, thanks to your raising the issue.

Hub Kid
Guest

I have a list of favourite candidates for Redemption Rounds that is at least a dozen players long; Monte Irvin and Hal Newhouser are probably the two I most regret not having space for this time; at the moment they are probably my 6th and 7th redemption candidates. Hopefully the votes ahead will give me the chance to put them both in my top 5 next time.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
I’ve voted for Randolph a bunch. Having seen him play, I know he was a situational hitter – a guy who is gonna poke a weak grounder to the right side with 2 strikes to move a runner over. “Doesn’t show up in the scorecard” talent. Great D, great baserunning, great eye, longevity. Here’s one way of looking at it. Among 2nd basemen, here’s who had 100+ Rbat 40+ Rbaser 100+ Rfield Willie Randolph Chase Utley ________________ Drop it to 0 Rbaser and you only add Frankie Frisch Joe Gordon ________________ Only 15 second sackers even achieved 30 Rbat 0… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
Vote Change Paige Lyons Coveleski R. Smith Irvin (changed from M. Brown) After reading the exchange about Monte Irvin between mosc and nsb yesterday, I reexamined Irvin’s record and read his SABR bio (which I don’t think I had before). I think Irvin would be a difficult case for the CoG. Irvin’s Negro League record is very strong, but not very long, yet part of the reason for that is years lost to wartime service (and unlike some MLB players in the service, Irvin played no ball in those years). Irvin’s MLB debut was not that long after his prime… Read more »
no statistician but
Guest

Minnie Minoso’s 162 game average stats for his age 31-34 years are very close, nearly identical, to those of Irvin, except that Minoso 1) scored far more runs and 2) was healthy, productive and playing full time. Add to that the fact that Minnie’s best years on the whole came in his age 25-30 years, a perennial AL all-star, and I have to take Minnie over Monte. Reality in these things has to trump speculation, no matter how convincing the speculation might be.

e pluribus munu
Guest
Reality in these things has to trump speculation, no matter how convincing the speculation might be. Obviously, if this were so, nsb, there would be no argument for Irvin on any grounds, nor for Paige. I think there is room for disagreement. Minoso was an exciting player, and I was upset that he missed out on his one postseason opportunity by the rhythm of his back-and-forth between Cleveland and Chicago. But though Minoso played in the Negro Leagues, he only hit his stride there at age 22, and he came to the AL at 23, in 1949. His 1949 season… Read more »
no statistician but
Guest

epm:

I was just explaining why I kept my vote for Minnie and didn’t bump him for Monte after Irvin was brought into the discussion by mosc. Irvin vs someone else is anyone’s call on his or her ballot. Irvin vs the guys on my ballot, Minoso being the weakest, is my call.

e pluribus munu
Guest

Of course that’s your call, nsb. I did not realize you were explaining your personal vote. I thought you were making an argument, advocating for Minoso over Irvin by asserting a general imperative. I wanted to argue in response that the imperative was not necessarily valid in the context at hand. Sorry I misunderstood you.

no statistician but
Guest
Oscar Gamble’s demise has already been mentioned. The thing that always comes to mind for me re Oscar was his one-year stint as DH for the White Sox in 1977. Along with Richie Zisk, he was a sort of rent-a-player, hired for a year by Bill Veeck (in his second go round on the south side) to be milked for his cheap talent in his last year before the new concept, free agency, applied to his career. Between them Gamble and Zisk hit 61 homers and drove on 190 runs, leading the team to ninety wins before they were set… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

I’d argue that Gamble played pretty well in 1979:
.358 / .456 / .609 / 1.065
___
Sure, only 327 PA
But still.
He did this with RISP:
.477 / .617 / .862 / 1.479
___
And he did this in the Yankees’ last 7 games:
.516 / .531 / 1.129 / 1.660
with 5 HR and 14 RBI
All victories.
Almost led them to the division title that week. They only finished 13.5 games back.

Paul E
Guest

1979?…..previous division winners NYY, KC, LAD, and PHL were nowhere to be found. I wonder if that has ever happened before to such an extent that they had 11 division titles between them in the prior 3 seasons?

Hartvig
Guest

Vote change:

Lyons
Dawson
Simmons
Paige
Irvin

It doesn’t appear that Bell or Burkett have much of a shot and I’ve advocated for both Paige & Irvin at times in the past

e pluribus munu
Guest
The deadline for vote changes is now past, and since I’ve been keeping track, here’s the current tabulation, as I have it, according to Doug’s rules. We’re still at 14 votes: the only reason to post a new tabulation now is to update with a few vote changes and alert all those who haven’t yet voted how things stand — they can cast ballots until 11:59pm EST on Sunday evening, February 4. ==========Heading_towards_Redemption_(Leading three)=========== 6 – Satchel Paige 5 – Ted Lyons, Ted Simmons // Andre Dawson ========Heading_towards_Secondary_Ballot_(Next seven + ties)======= 4 – Ken Boyer, Don Drysdale, Don Sutton 3… Read more »
opal611
Guest

For the 2018 Redemption Round, I’m voting for:
-Willie Randolph
-Don Sutton
-Rafael Palmeiro
-Rick Reuschel
-Dwight Evans

Thanks!

bells
Guest
Ahh, it’s CoG time again! And a redemption round, to boot. That means it’s time for me to start to compose a long post arguing why people should vote for Satchel Paige, and – oh, you say other people have already done so, eloquently and at length? And it’s almost the end of the voting period? Yikes! Okay, note to self – don’t procrastinate next time. Just like you told yourself the last time, and the time before that. Well. I am thrilled to see some support for ol’ Satch here, as back when we had this thing weekly I… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

Nice to see you back, bells. I had you in mind when advocating for Paige.

bells
Guest

Well thank you sir! I appreciated the excellent post on that matter. Rest assured that I’m around these parts, although I’ve dropped by relatively infrequently and caught up on a couple of weeks of comments at a time. I just don’t have the breadth of knowledge of most folks here and so this CoG stuff was always a natural thread to contribute to, because even I know about lots of the most prominent players in history. But despite my non-posting, I have read pretty much every comment on here. This place is always wonderful, small but committed, respectful, intelligent community.

Dave Humbert
Guest

I like this redemption format, gets some good cases back to revisit:

Vote:
Rafael Palmeiro
Rick Reuschel
Fred Clarke
Dwight Evans
Mordecai Brown

Scary Tuna
Guest

Ted Simmons
Mordecai Brown
Willie Randolph
Stan Coveleski
Kirby Puckett

Chris C
Guest

Vote:
————
Palmeiro
Dwight Evans – Seems silly he isn’t even be on the ballot as Winfield is on the cusp of being elected.
Three Finger Brown
Don Sutton
Dennis Eckersley

birtelcom
Editor
Doug: Kudos on the elegant solution to the issues that have been perceptively raised about the COG voting going forward. It is fascinating how things have evolved. When I first proposed the COG system and we began the voting, back in December, 2012 (more than five years ago!), the BBWAA had voted to induct a total of 112 players into the Hall over the 76 years since they began voting. Nobody was voted in by the BBWAA in the 2013 vote that concluded just after we started our process, so the BBWAA was down to an average of 1.45 inductees… Read more »
Mike L
Guest

All hail Birtelcom! Age cannot wither, nor custom stale, his infinite variety

birtelcom
Editor

Comparing me to Cleopatra? Asp not what you can do for your country….

Mike L
Guest

LOL. Sherlock Holmes uses a variant of the Cleo quote in his return “The Adventure of the Empty House,” I was thinking of your probing intellect and problem-solving skills.

e pluribus munu
Guest

Not to mention the common theme of sudden and unannounced reappearance after long absence.

Mike L
Guest

I’m never going to find another group with this level of casual erudition

e pluribus munu
Guest

Second Mike’s encomium! It’s a treat to have you reappear, birtelcom, and I hope you well.

As one who was concerned about the standards issue, I take your point and agree that Doug’s solution is an excellent one. Your message adds the dimension of orthodoxy — even though HHS no longer shows all the former icons, “birtelcom” and “The Father of Baseball” are enduringly linked in memory. I believe that even my die-hard stance against the DH could not withstand an online post from Henry Chadwick supporting that rule change.

birtelcom
Editor
Be assured, epm, you will never see a post from this user of Chadwick’s iconic image (back when HHS included those avatars) supporting any expansion of the DH. What I have suggested and supported (in lieu of what I really prefer, which is to get rid of the DH entirely, which I recognize has become an impossible scenario) is a compromise between the leagues in which both adopt a common rule: one DH plate appearance per game. Once and only once per game, a manager could insert a hitter in place of the pitcher (or any other position in the… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

That is an ingenious compromise, birtelcom. But in modern America, where half the fans view only AL.com and the other view only NL.com . . . or something like that . . . the art of compromise is not getting much play. The millennium having passed, your plan may have to wait till the Millennium.

But your thinking reminds me how much you’ve been missed here at HHS: not just in connection with the CoG, but for your knowledge and reasoning about baseball issues in general.

birtelcom
Editor
I do hope to get back to involvement here at HHS. I’ve been very busy at work (I work in a large city’s municipal government, and my area is heavily involved with federal government relationship matters, so you can imagine things are complicated these days), plus I’m still in physical therapy recovering from the illness that knocked me off here in the first place. So life is full. But I do enormously enjoy the HHS type stuff, so keep your eye out for more of me here. Also thank you to Dr. Doom for spotting a note of mine at… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

Given what you encountered, birtelcom, the fact that you’ve resumed your career and are busy at it is good news indeed. In your line of work in these times, perhaps needing only physical therapy is an index of strong character.

I see Doom’s note, and the context makes me think I should be spending more time at the HoS site. The view from there is different.

dr. remulak
Guest

Randolph, Dean, Mattingly, Eckersley, Guidry.

Brendan Bingham
Guest

Great to have the COG discussions and voting back again!
Redemption round vote:
Buddy Bell
Fred Clarke
Dwight Evans
Willie Randolph
Ted Simmons

e pluribus munu
Guest
This is what I have through Brendan Bingham’s vote (#21): ==========Heading_towards_Redemption_(Leading three)=========== 7 – Satchel Paige, Ted Simmons 6 – Mordecai Brown, Don Sutton //? ========Heading_towards_Secondary_Ballot_(Next seven + ties)======= 5 – Andre Dawson, Dwight Evans, Ted Lyons, Willie Randolph, Rick Reuschel, 4 – Ken Boyer, Fred Clarke, Stan Coveleski, Don Drysdale, Dennis Eckerskley, Monte Irvin, Reggie Smith 3 – Buddy Bell, Rafael Palmeiro, =========Currently_short_of_Redemption_&_Secondary_Ballot======== 2 – Jim Bunning, Hal Newhouser, Kirby Puckett, Billy Williams 1 – Sal Bando, Lou Brock, Dizzy Dean, Larry Doby, Jim Edmonds, Darrell Evans, Ron Guidry, Orel Hersheiser, Don Mattingly, Minnie Minoso, Gary Sheffield, Early Wynn… Read more »
Hub Kid
Guest
In this case, wouldn’t the tie breaker then go back to the first player to get to 5 votes? 1. two tied at 6: ignore the tying vote(s) (dropping M. Brown and Sutton back to 5 votes); 2 7 tied at 5 (including the two above): keep throwing away votes until there is only one of these players with 5 votes. I think the first player of these 7 to get to 5 votes was Ted Lyons, but I haven’t double-checked that, and it is only including the players with vote totals currently between 5 and 6 (ignoring any with… Read more »
Hub Kid
Guest

(my hypothetical steps should include the following corrected punctuation):

1. two tied at 6: ignore the tying vote(s) (dropping M. Brown and Sutton back to 5 votes);
2. 7 tied at 5 (including the two above): keep throwing away votes until there is only one of these players with 5 votes.

e pluribus munu
Guest
Kid, Your basic suggestion is logical, but I think the implementation would simpler. Given that Brown and Simmons reached 6 simultaneously, the tie-breaking criterion would become which of the two reached 5 earlier. The answer is Simmons, who reached 5 with opal’s ballot, #15, vs. Brown, who waited for Scary Tuna’s vote at #18. I withdrew a vote from Brown in favor of Irvin for strategic reasons, believing it would probably have no effect on Brown’s redemption, and would lead Irvin to the Secondary Ballot. As things now stand, the consequence is that Brown will miss redemption, but the change… Read more »
CursedClevelander
Guest

Man, this is tough. I’ll go with:

Satchel Paige
Larry Doby
Rafael Palmeiro
Ken Boyer
Dwight Evans

e pluribus munu
Guest
Cursed Clevelander’s vote #22 has brought the redemption round to a tumultuous close. This is the tabulation I have, with the questionable tie-breaker for the final redemption slot indicated. ==========Heading_towards_Redemption_(Leading three)=========== 8 – Satchel Paige 7 – Ted Simmons 6 – [Don Sutton //? Mordecai Brown] Dwight Evans ========Heading_towards_Secondary_Ballot_(Next seven + ties)======== 5 – Ken Boyer, Andre Dawson, Ted Lyons, Willie Randolph, Rick Reuschel =========Currently_short_of_Redemption_&_Secondary_Ballot======== 4 – Fred Clarke, Stan Coveleski, Don Drysdale, Dennis Eckerskley, Monte Irvin, Rafael Palmeiro, Reggie Smith 3 – Buddy Bell 2 – Jim Bunning, Larry Doby, Hal Newhouser, Kirby Puckett, Billy Williams 1 – Sal… Read more »
Hub Kid
Guest

Paige and Simmons are a pretty clear 1 and 2 for the end and for several ballots preceding, but finding a third place with no ties looks mighty difficult. Using EPM’s tabulations (any mistakes mine), it looks like all ballots from 13-22 involve ties, although I think that ballot 12 does not.

Doug
Guest
Your totals match mine on Google. The tie-breaker is between Sutton, Brown and Evans. Working backwards from the last ballot cast: – Cursed Clevelander – vote cast for Evans, so he is out – Chris C – vote cast for Sutton and Brown, so keep going – Scary Tuna – vote cast for Brown, so he is out Elevated to main ballot – Paige, Simmons, Sutton Initial secondary ballot – Brown, Evans, Boyer, Dawson, Lyons, Randolph, Reuschel BTW, the answer to the Oscar Gamble trivia question is Jim Perry. He compiled 38.7 WAR in his career and was a teammate… Read more »
Brendan Bingham
Guest

Doug: Excellent trivia question (and answer). Aurelio Rodriguez was also a teammate of Gamble, Freehan, and Mincher, but he came up well short of the 30 WAR mark.

Doug
Guest

I see that Josh Hamilton also has exactly 200 career home runs, but B-R still shows him as active player. That should change soon.

ThickieDon
Guest

Missed the deadline but meant to vote. Any chance for an extension?

wpDiscuz