Circle of Greats 1973 Balloting Part 2

This post is for voting and discussion in the 126th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This is the second of four rounds adding to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1973. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1973-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This second group of 1973-born candidates, including those with D-J surnames, joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots. The remaining 1973-born candidates, with K-Z surnames, will be eligible to receive your votes in the next two rounds of balloting.

In addition to voting for COG election among players on the main ballot, there will be also be voting for elevation to the main ballot among players on the secondary ballot. For both ballots, which may be voted on at the same time or in separate posts, voters must include three and only three eligible players. For the main ballot election, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats, while for the secondary ballot election, the one player appearing on the most ballots cast is elevated to the main ballot for the next COG election round. In the case of ties, a runoff election round will be held for COG election, while a tie-breaking process will be followed to determine the secondary ballot winner.

Players who fail to win either ballot but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. One additional round of eligibility is earned for for any player who appears on at least 10% of the ballots cast or, for the main ballot only, any player finishing in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances. Holdover candidates on the main ballot who exhaust their eligibility will drop to the secondary ballot for the next COG election round, as will first time main ballot candidates who attract one or more votes but do not earn additional main ballot eligibility. Secondary ballot candidates who exhaust their eligibility will drop from that ballot, but will become eligible for possible reinstatement in a future Redemption round election.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Sunday, February 11th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Friday, February 9th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1973 Part 2 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1973 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1973 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers

MAIN BALLOT Eligibility Secondary BALLOT ELIGIBILITY
Kevin Brown 8 rounds Mordecai Brown this round ONLY
Luis Tiant 5 rounds Ken Boyer this round ONLY
Dick Allen 4 rounds Andre Dawson this round ONLY
Bill Dahlen 3 rounds Dwight Evans this round ONLY
Graig Nettles 3 rounds Ted Lyons this round ONLY
Manny Ramirez 2 rounds Willie Randoph this round ONLY
Richie Ashburn this round ONLY Rick Reuschel this round ONLY
Satchel Paige this round ONLY
Andy Pettitte this round ONLY
Ted Simmons this round ONLY
Don Sutton this round ONLY
Bobby Wallace this round ONLY

Everyday Players (born in 1973, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR, D-J surname):
Johnny Damon
Todd Helton
Nomar Garciaparra
David Dellucci
Alex Gonzalez
Todd Hollandsworth
Damian Jackson

Pitchers (born in 1973, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR, D-J surname):
Octavio Dotel
Shawn Estes
Bob Howry
Ryan Franklin
Danny Graves
Jason Johnson

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152 Comments on "Circle of Greats 1973 Balloting Part 2"

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Dr. Doom
Guest
Thanks, Doug, for all the work. I’ll return to do my voting later, but until then, here’s your obligatory Kevin Brown post for 2018. It’s a long one, but I hope it clarifies why I think he belongs. Most of you are probably familiar with my talk of Brown’s five-year peak here. I’ll save you that rant (unless someone requests – then I’ll be happy to oblige). Instead, I want a heads-up comparison with a pseudo-contemporary who achieved more votes than Brown last round: Manny Ramirez. At first blush, I think, most of us wouldn’t consider this a fair fight,… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
I happen to agree that Kevin Brown would have the edge over Manny, but I won’t ever be voting for either of them. The reason lies in Doom’s quick comment: Brown was named in the Mitchell Report for using when a LOT of guys were; Manny was suspended (TWICE!!!) during the more stringent era, which I think means it’s safe to say he was using the rest of the time, too. While Doom seems to touch on PEDs only to suggest that Manny was more culpable than Brown, for many of us that matters very little: the essential point is… Read more »
CursedClevelander
Guest

I agree that we’re just spinning our wheels on the PED issue, and as the Watson to Dr. Doom’s Holmes when it comes to Brown advocacy, I think it might be a lot more instructive for us to once again tackle the other big mark against Brown, his quite pronounced home/road splits.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Next Redemption Round I’m voting for Canseco (Jose), simply because he was vilified and blackballed for being honest while the rest of us were in chicks-dig-the-longball mode.

Dr. Doom
Guest
I guess I would say that Brown’s H-R splits are unusually large – 0.92 points of ERA. The tOPS+, which takes into account ballpark, says that he was ten percent better than himself at home, ten percent worse than himself on the road. This IS large, but not crazy. Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson, for example, were about five percent better than themselves at home, five percent worse on the road. Mike Mussina, John Smoltz, Curt Schilling, and Tom Glavine were all within 2% of their average performance, whether home or away. Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez were in between… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
I don’t place much stress on H/R splits, unless the home park characteristics distort the overall record over time, which would be a decisive argument in a case like Bobby Doerr’s, for example, where an entire career in a hitter’s park dramatically biases his traditional numbers. As I see it, you want a player to do his best work in the park where he plays 50% of his games, and, naturally, that will make his performance in other parks look “worse”: you can’t have it both ways. If a player’s record is worse at home, find a team whose park… Read more »
Dr. Doom
Guest
epm, It’s a thoughtful and measured response. I GET that many people are going to have problems with electing Brown due to PED use. I could’ve also pointed out that the Mitchell report itself basically talks about Brown’s “hangaround” years more than his most valuable ones; the thing is, as you point out, if we just talk about steroids, no one is going to change their mind, so I’m not going to try. I just want to stick to things that might actually sway someone. In particular, there were quite a few voters who voted for Manny and not for… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

Fair enough, Doom.

bells
Guest
I truthfully go back and forth on my thoughts on PEDs and how to value players, especially non-slam dunk players, all the time. Morally, I have a problem with taking them, but career-wise, if I’m assessing a player’s value on the baseball diamond, I have more of a problem with breaking the rules. I think it’s lazy to say ‘it happened so much that I’m gonna call it a wash’ and I think it’s lazy to say that anyone with even a whiff of PED suspicion should be discounted wholesale (luckily, these views aren’t espoused much here, they’re just different… Read more »
Jeff Harris
Guest

Main COG election:
Brown
Simmons
Tiant

Doug
Guest
This round’s tidbits. Answers are bolded. 1. Johnny Damon is one of six expansion era players with a career including 500 doubles and 100 triples. Which of the other five had fewer career extra base hits than Damon? Jimmy Rollins 2. Todd Helton is the eighteenth retired player since 1901 to compile a .300/.400/.500 career of 5000+ PA. Which of those players recorded less career WAR than Helton? Hank Greenberg 3. Octavio Dotel is one of 13 pitchers with a season of 70 games finished. Which of those pitchers, like Dotel, had no other seasons with more than 50 games… Read more »
Mike L
Guest

My favorite Shawn Estes stat line: 2004, pitching for (of course) Colorado: 5.84 ERA in 202 IP, 1.624 WHIP. 105 BB, 117 K, but a positive WAR (.7, but positive) and….wait for it, a 15-8 WL record as he clearly pitched to the score.

CursedClevelander
Guest

#2 should be Hank Greenberg.

Move the threshold to 3,000 PA and I think it’s Lefty O’Doul with the lowest WAR in a .300/.400/.500 career.

Doug
Guest

Greenberg is the one.

Scary Tuna
Guest

Doug, is Joe Charboneau the answer for #10?

Doug
Guest

The very one.

CursedClevelander should have got this one.

CursedClevelander
Guest

I should have at least guessed it, since I knew he fit that designation, though I wasn’t 100% sure he was the first.

I actually misread the Q at first and though the answer might be Bob Hamelin. But Hamelin didn’t get his own song, now did he!

Brent
Guest

I think #1 is Jimmy Rollins.

Doug
Guest

Right you are.

Brent
Guest

#12 sure sounds like Ozzie Smith and Gary Templeton.

Doug
Guest

And right again.

CursedClevelander
Guest
#8 – Sight unseen, I figured it had to be Jose Hernandez – first guy that came to mind for a SS that struck out all the time. But he only had one such season. Then I realized it – this is a perfect trivia question! Obviously, the answer is the other Alex Gonzalez, right? Except no, he only had 4 such seasons. Shawon Dunston perhaps? Nope, not enough seasons. So I gave up and brute forced it – lo and behold, it’s Cap’n Jeter, with 8 such seasons. Of course, many of those were good to great seasons –… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
It will surprise no one that I’m going to advocate voting for Satchel Paige. I just finished commenting on Doom’s post concerning Kevin Brown, where I said I didn’t think that the arguments we’ve had about Brown have been about Brown and his career at all: we’ve just been arguing about how to handle the PED issue. In a way, I think Paige’s case is similar. I wrote at length about Paige in the Redemption Round string, and it would be bad form to repeat that long post. (Of course, I hope those who didn’t see it will go take… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
Comments on the new balloteers: DON SUTTON 200+ IP for 21 straight years (on pace in ’81) 190+ IP for 22 straight 3rd in career starts behind Cy Young and Nolan Ryan. It can be argued that he had just a handful of ‘great’ seasons. It can also be argued that that kind of long-term consistency is great. ________ SATCHEL PAIGE I don’t think anyone doubts the stories of his greatness. This would be our first time, however, voting for someone without any numbers to back up the story. ________ TED SIMMONS 15th in defensive games at Catcher. Some fine… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

Here are some comparative stats for the candidates this round. I’ve tried to include everyone who might get a vote, but there always seems to be a vote or two for someone I’d never expected.

Pitchers
P(Tot)WAR…Peak5..Top5…WAR/9IP…WAR/Yr….ERA+…Career length
68.5 (68.3)……37.0…37.0……0.189……4.0 (17)……127……1.0………Brown
10.3 (09.1)……10.1…10.1……0.190……2.1 (05)……124……N/A……..Paige
60.9 (60.8)……20.3…28.4……0.166……3.4 (18)……117……1.0………Pettitte
68.7 (67.4)……22.5…27.3……0.117……3.0 (23)……108……1.6………Sutton
66.1 (66.7)……28.7…34.7……0.171……3.9 (17)……114……1.2………Tiant

Position Players
WAR……Pk5……Top5……WAR/G…WAR/Yr……OPS+…Career length
58.7………31.5……36.7……0.034……4.2 (14)……156………1.0………Allen
63.6………31.6……32.7……0.029……4.2 (15)……111………1.3………Ashburn
75.2………22.6……29.8……0.031……4.0 (19)……110………1.4………Dahlen
56.0………19.8……24.5……0.022……3.2 (17)……104………1.5………Damon
44.2………28.1……33.0……0.031……3.7 (12)……124………0.8………Garciaparra
61.4………37.4……37.4……0.027……3.8 (16)……133………1.3………Helton
68.0………28.7……32.2……0.025……3.4 (20)……110………1.4………Nettles
69.2………28.7……29.9……0.030……4.1 (17)……154………1.3………Ramirez
50.1………23.3……26.4……0.024……2.6 (19)……118………1.4………Simmons
70.2………28.6……31.3……0.029……4.2 (17)……105………1.3………Wallace*

* Wallace’s total WAR (incl. pitching) is 76.3.

WAR/Yr. includes only those seasons with 10 GS or 100 IP for starters, 20G for relievers, and 50G for position players.
Career length takes Brown IP and Allen PA as 1.0.

Doug
Guest

Garciaparra’s 3.0 WAR aged 30+ is the fourth lowest total among 86 players, since 1893, with 40 WAR thru age 29 (Mike Trout is the 87th). Only lower totals were posted by John McGraw (0.2), Daryl Strawberry (1.9) and Jim Fregosi (2.8).

mosc
Guest

The fact that Paige’s ERA+ shows up so highly and he didn’t get to pitch until he was 41 means a lot.

e pluribus munu
Guest

I think the WAR/9IP figure is even more startling. After a 21-year career before debuting as an MLB rookie, Paige was generating WAR at a higher per inning rate than Brown and any of the others over their entire careers.

mosc
Guest

I feel like Andre Dawson may be the best player on either ballot with a strong peak but I guess he didn’t quite make the cut. I’m also a little worried about this split ballot deal that we’re getting a little too complicated but I understand that the circle is complete now and continuing to add kind of puts us well across the years and thus requires a different kind of approach.

Satchel Paige
Greg Nettles
Ted Simmons

Andre Dawson
Willie Randoph
Rick Reuschel

Really reluctant to have to name three guys from that short secondary ballot.

Mike L
Guest

Quick rules clarification from Doug? I didn’t vote in the redemption round because, if I recall, I had stopped voting in the redemption rounds when we first did COG and I wanted to stay consistent. To keep in line with that I’d rather not vote for the column B players (and I agree with Mosc’s take as well). Can I vote straight COG without the Column B vote?

Doug
Guest

Yes, can vote on either or both ballots.

e pluribus munu
Guest

Here’s a chart of stats for Secondary Ballot candidates, using the same parameters as the chart for the CoG ballot, above:

Pitchers
55.1 (56.4)……34.2…34.2……0.148……4.5 (12)……139……1.0……M. Brown
67.2 (71.6)……24.2…29.0……0.145……3.6 (19)……118……1.6……Lyons
68.2 (70.1)……31.0…32.8……0.173……4.0 (17)……114……1.4……Reuschel

Position Players
62.8………33.0……34.0……0.031……4.5 (14)……116………1.2……Boyer
64.4………32.4……33.7……0.025……3.4 (19)……119………1.5……Dawson
66.9………23.7……28.3……0.026……3.5 (19)……127………1.4……Dw. Evans
65.5………27.2……29.5……0.030……3.7 (18)……104………1.3……Randolph

Paul E
Guest

Allen, Dahlen, Simmons
M. Brown, Lyons, Boyer

Just curious if the PC police would allow a nickname like “Three Finger” nowadays…..

JEV
Guest

Brown, Ramirez, Simmons

and

Brown, Randolph, Evans

Dr. Doom
Guest
My Main and Secondary ballots are included in this comment. Main ballot: Kevin Brown Luis Tiant Satchel Paige While my first two spots are steady as can be, I’ve rotated my third spot for the last four rounds. I’ve moved over to Team Paige, and this one is sticking. I’ve been one of the outspoken folks that Paige did not belong, because he wasn’t in the original rules. I felt like a COG that included Paige by EXCLUDED Josh Gibson, Bullet Joe Rogan, and Oscar Charleston was a bit of a farce. I haven’t completely moved off of this idea;… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest

Paige
Tiant
Ashburn

Lyons
Dawson
Brown

e pluribus munu
Guest
Last round I advocated for Dahlen and Wallace, and this round I’m all in for Paige. I think I should stick to those three, but Dahlen now is off the bubble, and if I see someone on the bubble floundering (or is it “foundering?”), I may make a strategic change. Among the redeemed brethren, I don’t have a strong sense of how to assess Simmons or Sutton. I’d appreciate it very much if paartisans for either of these two could note the key reasons why they seem CoGworthy (and equally if others would explain why they may disagree). (in Sutton’s… Read more »
Doug
Guest
For Sutton and Simmons, the primary argument would be that all of the comparable players are in the HoF. In Sutton’s case, he is one of 13 pitchers with 5000 IP, all of whom are in the Hall, and one of 24 pitchers to win 300 games, all but one (Roger Clemens, who is in the CoG) of whom is in the Hall. Similar story for Simmons. He stands 11th in WAR among catchers, with the 10 ahead of him, excepting Joe Mauer, in the Hall. Other catcher rankings include 2nd in Hits, 2nd in RBI, 5th in XBH and… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
Thanks, Doug. Good reply. I think nsb’s assessment of Simmons and Sutton, below, is pretty in line with my own thinking about those two. The arguments about Simmons and Sutton share a certain reliance on the company they keep, rather than on their own accomplishments. Sutton is, indeed, somehow, a member of the exclusive 300-win club. How did he get there? Spahn famously won 20 games 13 times; Sutton won 15 games 12 times — a “poor man’s Warren Spahn” indeed! How destitute can a 300 game-winner be? Over his final seven seasons, Sutton threw a 100 ERA+ (2.8 WAA)… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

. . . Got to get my italics under control before the html police come take them away . . .

e pluribus munu
Guest
Doug, I want to add another note on your paragraph on Randolph, and the point has a general thrust. You close by writing, “Comparing him to a contemporary middle infielder also more noted for his defense and baserunning than for his offense, their totals for Rbat + Rfield + Rbaser + Rdp are 267 for Randolph and 224 for the other player, who is … Ozzie Smith.” That brought me up short, because it seems to suggest that Willie was a better all-around player than Ozzie. I went straight to their B-R pages to confirm your counter-intuitive statement, which was… Read more »
Doug
Guest
I’m afraid I don’t know all the details about how the R values are calculated. But, I was actually trying to avoid “isolating certain combinations of numbers” by adding them all together to show the run value attributable to the player’s performance (which I think is measured on the same scale, regardless of the player’s position). I left Rpos out of the mix because it’s so arbitrary and non-discriminating. There’s no correlation to the player’s performance, only a supposed run value awarded to every player at a position (weighted, of course, by how much of the season each played), regardless… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
I see what you’re thinking, but to my mind, Rpos is like park factor: it’s a built in constant adjusted each year in light of holistic calculations of performance at all positions. The constant is applied equally per inning to all players because it applies equally per inning to all players. For a good first baseman or a lousy first baseman, their fielding performance is constrained by the position they play. Albert Pujols was a terrific first baseman, and despite his recent woes, his career Rfield is substantially higher than Randolph’s (139 to 114). We’ve all played the game and… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
. . . or, to stick to the Secondary Ballot and view things another way, rather than comparing Randolph to a player he’s not competing with on the ballot, like Ozzie, total up the four categories without Rpos for the other three position players and compare (the numbers in brackets are RAA, with Rpos factored in): Evans 415 [296] Dawson 324 [258] Boyer 276 [305] Randolph 267 [332] Now, the obvious response to Randolph’s having the worst numbers is to point out that he was a second baseman and the others were at easier positions in the field — otherwise,… Read more »
Doug
Guest

Point well made. Thanks.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Floundering is more appropriate in this case than foundering.

no statistician but
Guest
The other Simmons—not Bucketfoot. I’m basically negative on him. The only reason for considering him, it seems to me, is that in some respects he seems the best catcher—or his stats seem the best—of those not already voted in. Against that easy premise is the fact that his WAR of 50.1 (2.0 minimum less than all other COG catchers except Campanella) was accumulated in 2456 games. Thurman Munson, just to pick one of several not under consideration, produced 45.9 in 1423 games. Simmons # 10 JAWS ranking, in other words, is only that high because he was pretty good and… Read more »
Dr. Doom
Guest
Weird WAR notes: Nomar Garciaparra has the most seasons of 6+ WAR (6) of anyone on the ballot. Richie Ashburn, Todd Helton, and Kevin Brown are the only other players with 5 such seasons. Don Sutton has 22 seasons of 1-WAR or better. Second most is 18. That is quite the gap. The only player with a 9-WAR season on the ballot… is on the secondary ballot (Rick Reuschel). We have another coming later in 1973 (Ichiro). Kevin Brown is the only player on the ballot with four seasons of 7+ WAR. Bobby Wallace has 8 seasons of 5+ WAR.… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

On Sutton’s 22 seasons of 1-WAR or better, it looks to me as though Cy Young had 21, Walter Johnson had 20 . . . But Sutton does seem to be the champ. It sort of fits, I think.

Dr. Doom
Guest
Another weird COG note: We’ve elected 92 position players. 47 of them (a majority) are deceased, with several particularly untimely deaths in the group (Ron Santo, Gary Carter, Tony Gwynn). We’ve elected 36 pitchers, and the vast majority (23 of them) are still living. I don’t know what, if anything, this means, but I thought it was interesting. The oldest living COGer is Whitey Ford. The oldest living position player in the COG is Willie Mays. Tony Gwynn would be 57 if he were living, and is the most recently-born deceased player in the COG. Chipper Jones, of course, is… Read more »
Mike L
Guest

From 1997 to 2000, Nomar had an aggregate 27.7 WAR, A-Rod 29.2, and Jeter 25.1, But outside those years, Jeter added 46.7,
A-Rod 87.5 and Nomar 15.5.
Nomar had 41 WAR by the time he was 29…and finished with 44.2

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Rick Reuschel’s WAR in seasons where his record was under .500:
5.8 … 14-15
3.4 … 11-17
5.5 … 14-15
5.7 … 11-13
3.3 … 8-11
1.1 … 9-16
0.8 … 3-6

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
He was on losing teams 13 of his first 15 seasons (before getting to play on some good Giants teams). In those seasons, in which he accumulated 61.1 pWAR, he played to a 106.5 Park Factor and -0.23 RA9DEF _____ So, certainly, WAR likes Big Daddy. His won/loss record was bruised by grinding out 250 inning a year on crummy teams, however. He had 175 wins in 447 starts those 15 years. By comparison, the first 450ish starts of Don Sutton and Luis Taint, who played for mostly excellent (or at least good) teams: 175-164 … 115 era+ … Big… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Oh, I should include Ted Lyons in this discussion.
He played on a brutal two-decades of White Sox teams.
Here he is through the same chunk-ish of starts (which, for him, comprises most of his career):

245-220 … 116 era+

That is 465 decisions in 459 starts.
Lyons also appeared in relief 110 times over that period.
Not especially effective as a reliever.
15-20 … 4.65 era

opal611
Guest

For the Secondary Ballot, I’m voting for:
-Willie Randolph
-Rick Reuschel
-Andre Dawson

Thanks!

opal611
Guest

For the 1973 Part 2 election, I’m voting for:

-Manny Ramirez
-Don Sutton
-Todd Helton

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Tiant
-Pettitte
-Brown
-Ashburn
-Nettles
-Allen
-Wallace
-Dahlen

Thanks!

no statistician but
Guest
Here’s my lineup of potential COG members whose careers were scuttled by early death or ailment/injury so that they were either denied an extended career or had a greatly diminished finale. C Thurman Munson 1B George Sisler 2B Ray Chapman 3B Al Rosen SS Nomar Garciaparra OF Chuck Klein OF Ross Youngs OF Eric Davis P Addie Joss There are probably other pitchers who might qualify, like Smokey Joe Wood, but I’m reluctant, since pitching arm injuries are so common, to speculate. And, yes, I am aware that Sisler is in the COG, but he is the only one of… Read more »
Paul E
Guest

Leo Durocher used to claim that, as a young player, Cesar Cedeno was better than Willie Mays but not as good as Pete Reiser. Supposedly, Reiser ran into outfield walls on a regular basis. By the same token, Reiser couldn’t overcome military service in WWII so I guess my suggestion is a moot point

CursedClevelander
Guest

For 2B, in the Lyman Bostock category of “way too young to tell” is Ken Hubbs. Probably not destined for COG worthy numbers, but he was only 21, so who knows what the future held for him.

CursedClevelander
Guest
Another 2B that doesn’t quite fit but at least is a case of unfulfilled potential is Carlos Baerga – of course, the rumor in Cleveland has long been that the “ailment” that diminished his career comes in a powder form, but still, he had almost 21 WAR through age 26. The other 17 2B with 20+ WAR through their age 26 season are: Hall of Famers (Collins, Alomar, Frisch, Lazzeri, Doerr, Sandberg, Billy Herman, Evers, Morgan, Gordon, Carew) Guys Outside the Hall with Good to Excellent HoF cases (Grich, Randolph, Whitaker, Larry Doyle, Knoblauch) Active (Jose Altuve) Baerga is the… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

I don’t mean to tread on CC’s turf, but I’d argue for Herb Score as your pitcher. He notched over 14 WAR in just over 500 IP before McDougal’s liner changed everything when Score was just 23.

Paul E
Guest

Geeze, how did we forget Tony Conigliaro? He was averaging 4.1 WAR/162 from age 19 through the Jack Hamilton beaning at age 22 !!

CursedClevelander
Guest
Tony C is a good one, but OF is probably the most crowded in this particular category. Not to make the team all Indians (it’s already got Rosen, Chapman and Joss), but Grady Sizemore is another good one in the OF. Through his first 5 seasons, his #1 similarity score comps were Duke Snider and then Barry Bonds. His 25.7 WAR through Age 25 certainly seemed to bode well for a HoF career. He also came off as a natural superstar, with a flair for dramatic catches, big moments, a winning smile and matinee idol good looks. Then the injuries… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

You know, there are many more we could bring to mind: Harry Agganis, Lyman Bostock, Bill DeLancey, all stopped by sudden or very early death at a point where their great potential had not yet come into full view.

But, you know, I’m not sure that the world needs more depressing thoughts right now, so I think I’ll sign off on this ersatz project.

Andy
Guest

Primary Ballot:
Kevin Brown
Bill Dahlen
Graig Nettles

Secondary Ballot:
Andre Dawson
Ken Boyer
Dwight Evans

no statistician but
Guest

There’s a lot of support for Andre Dawson on the secondary ballot, so I decided to take another look at his stats. Here’s my question, to those 13 or so who put Dave Winfield into the COG last round. What do you think makes Winfield that much better than Dawson, other than a longer career? Dawson was a better fielder by far, a better baserunner, and his OPS+ seems low only because he failed to walk much. Otherwise they are very close.

The follow-up question: if they’re as close as they seem, why is Winfield so much more in favor here?

e pluribus munu
Guest
I’m probably not the best person respond to this, nsb, since my vote for Winfield last round was, I think, my first ever, and was based on a somewhat whimsical feeling that I should balance by defense-heavy ballot (Dahlen & Wallace). But using the stats I like to look at as I begin thinking about this, Winfield and Dawson compare this way: WAR……Pk5……Top5……WAR/G…WAR/Yr……OPS+…Career length 64.4………32.4……33.7……0.025……3.4 (19)……119………1.5……Dawson 63.8………26.9……28.6……0.021……3.0 (21)……130………1.7……Winfield Dawson does better on WAR, both peak and total/rate; Winfield does better on OPS+, as you note — as someone said, a walk is as good as a hit (not true, but… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Andre Dawson and Dwight Evans had careers within 200 PA of one another.
Dawson was a CF for his first 1000 games, while Evans was a RF all the way.

Comparisons, in the War Runs categories: bat, baser, dp, field:

234 / 14 / 6 / 70
353 / 2 / -6 / 66

Rbat actually lists Dawson’s MVP season as his 7th best year.
And gives Evans 5 seasons better than Dawson’s best.

Doug
Guest

Difference definitely seems to be in their walks, as their slash lines look like:

.279/.323/.482
.272/.370/.470

Neutralizing to the 1982 Red Sox gives this result.

.287/.331/.496
.275/.374/.475

So, Dawson has a bit of an edge in BA and SLG, but Evans trumps him big time in OBP, walking more than twice as much. I wouldn’t have guessed that would result in a 50% edge in Rbat, but when you consider that Dawson made 9.4% more outs, it starts to make sense,

Paul E
Guest

Andre Dawson was a borderline superstar before his knees became an issue. The Hawk didn’t walk but he sure did everything else, at one point, extremely well. That weakness, of course, is evidenced by a low OBP, however, it really becomes evident when comparing these contemporaries by neutralized RC/27.
Dawson trails Dwight Evans in best 3 consecutive seasons 6.98 vs 7.51 RC/27
Dawson trails Evans in best ~ 6,400 PA’s 5.87 vs. 7.07
Dawson trails Evans in best ~ 9,600 PA’s 5.74 vs. 6.35
Dawson trails Evans in career RC/27 5.49 vs. 6.19

I guess this translates to approximately 6 runs per season?

e pluribus munu
Guest

Paul, where are you finding those RC/27 figures? I don’t see them on B-R advanced or Fangraphs.

Paul E
Guest

B-R player page.
Hover over “Finders and Advanced Stats”, on far left, click on “Advanced stats” and scroll scroll down to “Advanced Batting”. I neutralized by dividing RC/27 by “AIR”

e pluribus munu
Guest

I see. RC/27=RC/G. I remember now your preference for RC/27*AIR, and that you taught me how to do this before. I have a mind like a steel trap. Unfortunately, it was sprung some time ago.

Paul E
Guest

Yes, but the nice part about numerical logic is that it doesn’t change – and hasn’t changed since you last asked 🙂

Dr. Doom
Guest
6 runs is an okay estimate, but maybe a little low; if you figure that each guy is allowed to make 324 outs (2 per game, which seems like an okay estimate; might still be a little on the low side), you get Evans with about 74 RC per season, and Dawson with about 66. That’s just spitballing off the top of my head. Anyway, I don’t think it’s crazy to assume that Dawson more than makes up for that difference with defense. The position difference alone (CF vs. RF) has got to be worth a couple of runs. They’re… Read more »
Paul E
Guest
Doom, The career difference is about 96 runs and they each played roughly sixteen 162 game seasons (2606 for Evans and 2627 games for Dawson versus 2592 =16 x 162 ). 96 runs / 16 seasons = 6 I believe you may be thinking of a very young Andre Dawson as a great fielder and baser-runner and I certainly remember the athletic Dawson who ran like a gazelle prior to his knee problems. But, he was not the same player in later years. I’ll take Dawson prior to his 29th birthday and Evans after his 29th. That would make for… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
As for Secondary ballot pitchers, Lyons and Reuschel both played on mostly bad teams, while Mordecai was part of the Cubbie heyday. So, hard to compare. Brown was also deadball, while Lyons played in the 30’s. That being said, here’s a comparison of their RA9/RA9OPP. This is how many runs they allowed per 9 innings, versus what their opponents allowed. Being on a great team with great defense is obviously helpful, but a pitcher being way above average in this stat must have some value. Here is Brown, Lyons, Reuschel 2.96 / 3.89 … 0.93 better 4.45 / 5.14 …… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

Early returns. After 10 ballots of the regular vote (Andy’s the most recent) here are the totals I have:

=================50% (5)
4 – Kevin Brown, Satchel Paige*, Ted Simmons*, Luis Tiant
3 – Bill Dahlen, Manny Ramirez,
=================25% (3)
2- Graig Nettles, Bobby Wallace*
1 – Dick Allen, Richie Ashburn*, Todd Helton*, Don Sutton*
=================10% (1)

Voters: Jeff Harris, mosc, Paul E, JEV, Doom, Hartvig, epm, opal611, Doug, Andy

Let me know if you see a vote I missed or an error!

Dr. Doom
Guest

Secondary ballots (through nine votes; Jeff Harris did not post a secondary ballot):
6 votes – Andre Dawson
4 votes – Willie Randolph, Rick Reuschel, Mordecai Brown, Ken Boyer
3 votes – Ted Lyons
2 votes – Dwight Evans

e pluribus munu
Guest

That’s what I have too, Doom. I was waiting for a tenth to arrive . . . Would you like to split the updates: I’ll handle the primary ballot while you do the secondary one?

Dr. Doom
Guest
I’d be fine if you did both; I’ll continue to keep my spreadsheet as a check so we’re both doing something, if that’s alright with you. I just figured some folks might want both updates at the same time, but in the future, I’ll leave you to it. For the record, when I used to do these, I always waited until there were 11 ballots cast for the first update. That way, you know that the people who are at more than 10% aren’t going to have that change as soon as the next ballot comes in – but feel… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest

I believe that in the future when it comes to the timing of updates, I shall follow the Wisdom of Doom.

Mike L
Guest

One of the odd things about looking at a ballot with players that I watched is that the “eye” test is something hard to get away from. I’m a Yankees fan, so Nettles and Randolph were right in front of me. They were both really good, but I don’t think I ever saw either of them as HOF-worthy. Winfield had this impossible standard to meet—he had signed this (for then) huge contract, and I think most of us expected Mays/Aaron/Mantle, and he was more of an A- player, not a megastar. Still thinking.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
Mordecai Brown is 6th all-time in ERA. The caveats being that he played in a low offense, many unearned runs era, so we can question the value of that stat. However, he was still better at not-allowing runs than almost anyone else in his era, so that must count for something. … The pitchers ahead of him in ERA: Ed Walsh (COG) Addie Joss (9 years, 43.7 WAR) Jim Devlin (1870’s) Jack Pfiester (Brown’s teammate, and just over 1000 IP) Smokey Joe Wood (injuries, contract dispute, switched to outfield) … So, really, 3F is 2nd to Ed Walsh in ERA,… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
I’ll use WAR to try to make sense out of Brown, Lyons, Reuschel. This is a list of their best seasons by WAR: 8.7 … 7.4 … 9.4 8.2 … 5.8 … 6.2 7.1 … 5.4 … 5.8 5.3 … 5.3 … 5.7 4.8 … 5.2 … 5.7 3.4 … 4.8 … 5.5 3.3 … 4.7 … 4.7 3.2 … 4.3 … 3.9 2.9 … 3.7 … 3.7 2.7 … 3.4 … 3.5 2.4 … 2.5 … 3.4 1.8 … 2.1 … 3.3 1.4 … 2.0 … 2.9 -0.1 .. 1.9 … 2.7 ……… 1.9 … 1.1 ……… 1.6 …… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest

I think it’s important to point out that Lyons missed 3 full years to WW2.
And that the year prior to his going to war he led the league in ERA, completed 20 out of 20 starts and produced 4.7 WAR and that upon his return he completed 5 out of 5 starts with a 2.32 ERA and produced 0.5 WAR in in 42.2 innings. The reality is that he almost certainly lost 10 WAR- or possibly more- to military service. Which would put him over 80 WAR for his career, in the same range with Rod Carew & Tom Glavine.

Mike L
Guest

This is a recurring question–the what if the player didn’t lose time to injuries, what if he didn’t lose time to service. There’s a lot we can’t know. I’m not sure you can bracket 1942 and 1946, because basically his (old) arm got several years of rest. But it’s interesting to speculate anyway.

e pluribus munu
Guest
Lyons is a unique case in the “old arm gets rest” category. His arm did get tired in his mid-30s, so in 1935, at age 34, he began to be moved towards the “Sunday pitcher” role. (It wasn’t really always on Sunday and there were some days on short rest, though by ’42 those had stopped.) Consequently, Lyons’ “old arm” pitched only 85 games over the years 1939-42 — about a two-thirds load. But, of course, he completed 85% of his games (including his last 28 starts before the War), so he pitched well over the qualifying number of innings.… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest
I’ll admit that it’s speculative and I’m extremely hesitant to “credit” players for injury because they can happen at anytime to anyone, especially pitchers. There might be rare times when I would at least take it into consideration when trying to get a clearer understanding of what someone’s career arc might have looked like under different situations- say Monte Irvin’s broken leg when he was 33- but generally it’s not something I factor in to how I evaluate 99.9% of players careers. I do think that time lost to war and segregation need to be treated differently however. Those are… Read more »
Mike L
Guest

Not critiquing. Interested in the thought process. In effect, Lyons became sort of a variant of the Mariano analysis–a pitcher who did not look like he could succeed at “regular starter workload” but achieved excellence in differing role.

Hartvig
Guest
While I understand the value in having someone who could go out there and give you 8 or 9 innings once a week in an era when Sunday doubleheaders were an almost weekly occurrence, I have wondered since his name appeared on the ballot if they might not have been better off going with a 5 man rotation and getting 7 or 8 innings out of him every 5th day instead. It would have meant someone starting on “short rest” most Sundays but since they had already been going out there every 4th day anyways what difference as long as… Read more »
Mike L
Guest

It was a hard time to be a 500 club in baseball, especially in the AL. The Yankees averaged over 100 Wins (in a 154 game season) from 1936-39, they had an off year in 1940, then went back to it in 1941-43. Maybe the White Sox found a way to keep Lyons effective and didn’t see themselves as having to come up with a better strategy. You are right–we never will know, although it’s fun to speculate.
BTW, here’s political link http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2018/02/how-democrats-escape-the-ariadne-trap.html

e pluribus munu
Guest

Lyons himself thought he could have pitched more frequently; it was a club decision.

The bottom line is that in his six true Sunday pitcher years, Lyons finished almost every game and had a .603 W-L Pct., while without him the Sox were a .491 team (those were actually about their best years during Lyons’ long tenure). Lyons twice led the team in WAR. Why second guess a strategy with such good results?

e pluribus munu
Guest

Mike, I’ve come to trust your baseball judgments, but seeing that you refer to Tschaikovsky’s Eugene Onegin as a mediocrity, I think I must view your posts with a more skeptical eye. (I enjoy your columns, but I suspect HHS is best left a politics/religion-free zone, despite the fact that the temptation to argue against PED-entangled CoG candidates by declaiming Zoroastrian gathas is always a zealous yearning within me.)

Mike L
Guest

Yes, I agree.

Mike L
Guest

BTW, Parsifal…is a little eh

e pluribus munu
Guest

I’m very generous when it comes to Wagner. You can have him.

Hartvig
Guest

Excellent stuff. Soon as I get my new computer set up I’m going to subscribe.

Mike L
Guest

Thx–the website is multidisciplinary. Before I posted the HOF one, I first checked with the editors.

e pluribus munu
Guest
On Quinn vs. Paige, ages 42-49: Quinn racked up 19.7 WAR after his 42nd birthday (the age Paige began), and teams were willing to hire him every year. I’ve pointed out before how Paige’s situation differed. Only Bill Veeck would hire him, so In his “age 43” season, when Veeck was out of baseball, Paige was once again excluded, and after two years of 3.0+ WAR in his age 45 and 46 seasons, he was out again after Veeck lost his team. When given a chance by Veeck at the AAA level, age 49-51 seasons, Paige’s records ranged from outstanding… Read more »
Hartvig
Guest
Yeah, now that I reread what I said it sort of comes off like that and I certainly didn’t intend to imply that Paige wasn’t clearly a much better pitcher than Quinn- even with the incomplete statistical evidence available- in his younger days. I had just been going on for so long that even I was getting tired of listening to what I had to say. But I do think it valid for someone to argue that we are extrapolating to a much greater extent in Paige’s case than we have for someone like Johnny Mize or Jackie Robinson or… Read more »
Doug
Guest

Quinn is noteworthy as the only pitcher to record 200 CG and 200 GF.

Including his minor and negro league stats, Paige was over 100 in both categories (incl. Quinn, there are 46 such ML pitchers, 41 of whom played their entire careers before 1961). Don’t know if his negro league stats are incomplete, but Paige’s recorded stats show that he never started more than 16 games in a season, and reached 160 IP only once.

e pluribus munu
Guest

I’ve read that the Negro Leagues played short championship seasons because players could make more money doing various kinds of barnstorming tours each year. Sort of like a Harlem Globetrotters component. Which fits: when Veeck initially called up Paige and other black players, he first consulted Abe Saperstein, the Globetrotters coach and business manager, who doubled as a multi-faceted executive and impresario for Negro League teams.

Doug
Guest

Highest Career Percentage of IP Starting on 6+ Days Rest (min. 1500 IP), since 1913.

Highest percentage in expansion era is Bruce Kison at 21.6%, and highest among full-time starters is 21.3% by Dock Ellis.

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Secondary Ballot Vote:

Dwight Evans
Ted Lyons
Willie Randolph

Voomo Zanzibar
Guest

Vote:

Richie Ashburn
Bill Dahlen
Bobby Wallace

Mike L
Guest

Following Voomo’s lead (and picking players closer to my size):
Dalhlen, Wallace, Ashburn.
Not voting on the secondary ballot.

Hub Kid
Guest

Main ballot:

Paige
Wallace
Garciaparra

Secondary vote:

Boyer
Evans
Lyons

no statistician but
Guest
Secondary ballot vote in this post, but first: Both Andre Dawson (1993) and Dwight Evans (1990) spent their age 38 season as DH for the Red Sox. Their batting stats are similar, though Dawson’s are stronger in every area except walks, in which he falls an astounding 50 BBs short of Evans, 17 to 67. He struck out 24 fewer times, slugged .425 vs .391, drove in 4 more runs in 24 fewer PAs, and had 24 more TBs, batting .273 to Evans’s .249. In all the common clutch stats except one he performed better, sometimes much better, than Evans.… Read more »
bells
Guest
**long post alert** Regarding Paige, Voomo’s comment near the top of the thread of “this would be our first time voting for someone without any numbers to back up the story” got me thinking about Paige’s measurable numbers, which I believe I summarized a couple of years ago similarly to how I am going to try in this post. I suppose first is the larger issue, which is just your starting point for looking at the fact that we don’t have ‘any numbers’ for him. Some might view that as disqualifying for consideration of this exercise, others might argue that… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
bells, As you know, I’m in full agreement with the thrust of your argument. I’ve also been laying stress on several additional factors concerning comparisons between Paige and successful older pitchers. (1) Although Paige is listed as pitching in his age 41 season, he was not brought up till past mid-season and was already 42 when he debuted. Some of the WAR figures for pitchers on your list include a full year when they were 41. That year should be deducted. (2) Despite excellent pitching in 1948-49, Paige was frozen out of MLB in 1950 after Veeck lost his team.… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
All the pro-Paige arguments are compelling, but once we get into the weeds of theoretical “coulda beens”, where does it end? I understand that his reputation was as the greatest ever. But Diomedes Olivo had that same reputation. And then there are others who never played U.S. ball who we could argue for, like Sadaharu Oh. And there are probably a dozen guys not in the COG who would have had better careers than our lower-echelon electees had they not lost 3+ years to WWII. I’ve been a huge fan of Paige all my life; the legend, the inspiration, the… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
Voomo, Of course there’s an element of “reparations.” This is ethical issue about how to handle the impact of one special obstacle — segregation — on a player whose case is unique. Paige is the only Negro League superstar not eligible for the CoG who had an MLB career adequate to test and confirm his prior reputation as of MLB superstar quality. Lots of players got bad breaks because of forces beyond their control (military service, injuries & illness, etc.), but those excluded by segregation were subjected to a force that bore on a descriptive quality of their persons as… Read more »
Voomo Zanzibar
Guest
epm, if you have written any books, I would buy them and read them. Because, yes, I am of that middle generation that still reads books. Paper books, not pulses of light. And I do love to hear stories of the activism of your generation. Just the fact that it existed, not as a fashionable impulse which ultimately served to further divide, but that it was borne from a place where the masses involved still had a coherent enough sense of their collective culture that they were able to agree upon the important details to stay the course. I’m certainly… Read more »
e pluribus munu
Guest
A number of us here are of that generation, Voomo, and having been an extra on the set of the Sixties doesn’t actually give me any special wisdom worthy of publication. But thank you. It did seem to many of us, I think, a hopeful time and full of certainties. The world turns out to be too complex for certainty, and to work in mysterious ways. The technological, social, and cultural changes people now face seem to me much more challenging to respond to. Where is the overriding moral theme that can draw people together, when the experience we have… Read more »
Dr. Doom
Guest
Voomo, I get the “where does it end?” when it comes to Paige. But here’s the thing: it’s not like Babe Ruth and Cy Young and, on this current ballot, Bill Dahlen and Bobby Wallace were playing in integrated leagues, either. Satchel, we can say for certain, was one of the finest players in the history of Negro League baseball. Personally, I would prefer if Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson, Bullet Joe Rogan, and Paige were all elected, because I think their cases are so obvious as to not require MLB stats to be sure that they belong. Oh is another… Read more »
bells
Guest
Just some thoughts on “where does it end” – I think the comments of most folks here who have spoken up suggest it stops at Paige, a unique case. (and I guess it stops here, if he has the most votes.) I can’t speak for others, but here are a few things about his case from my perspective… I think once you get into the weeds then yes, it opens a theoretical argument that can go through Olivo and Oh and really, taken to its logical end, make you try to find the person in history most physiologically and psychologically… Read more »
Josh Davis
Guest

VOTE

Primary Ballot:
Manny Ramirez
Kevin Brown
Ted Simmons

That was a tough vote. There are other guys I’d like to support, but I believe Simmons deserves a longer look. His longevity and production at a position that is notoriously underrepresented is worth further discussion.

Secondary:
Mordecai Brown
Ken Boyer
Andre Dawson

T-Bone
Guest

COG – Allen, Paige, Sutton

Secondary – Reuschel, Brown, Evans

e pluribus munu
Guest
The deadline for vote changes is now past, and here’s an update: Primary Ballot With 15 votes in: =================50% (8) 6 – Satchel Paige* 5 – Kevin Brown, Bill Dahlen, Ted Simmons*, Bobby Wallace* 4 – Manny Ramirez, Luis Tiant =================25% (4) 3 – Richie Ashburn*, 2 – Dick Allen, Graig Nettles, Don Sutton* =================10% (2) 1 – Nomar Garciaparra*, Todd Helton* Voters: Jeff Harris, mosc, Paul E, JEV, Doom, Hartvig, epm, opal611, Doug, Andy, Voomo, Mike L, Hub Kid, Josh Davis, T-Bone Secondary Ballot With 14 votes in: 8 – Andre Dawson 7 – Mordecai Brown 6 – Ken… Read more »
opal611
Guest

If I’m understanding correctly, should Mike Cameron and Bartolo Colon be a part of the secondary ballot, since they received a vote on the COG ballot? Or is that only starting from this point forward?

Thanks!

e pluribus munu
Guest
Interesting question. Doug’s rule reads: “– players dropping from the primary ballot will now drop to the secondary ballot, and thus become eligible to be restored to the primary ballot in a future COG election”. There seems to be nothing there about needing to receive at least one vote to stay on the ballot. The critical point in the case of Cameron and Colon is whether they were on “the ballot” last round in the sense Doug meant. If they were, then so were all the other 1973/A-C players Doug listed, and they would all drop to the secondary ballot… Read more »
Doug
Guest

It’s starting from this round, as the secondary ballot is something new that wasn’t conceived of when the previous round started.

Holdovers drop to secondary ballot if on the bubble, getting less than 10% of the vote (incl. 0%), and finishing outside the top 9 and ties. First-timers drop to secondary ballot if they attract one or more votes but less than 10% and finish outside the top 9 and ties.

e pluribus munu
Guest

Guess I missed this in your earlier post, Doug.

Chris C
Guest

VOTE:
Primary Ballot
———————
Manny
Dick Allen
Don Sutton

***Shout out to Nomar who would be a lock if it wasn’t for Al Reyes

Secondary Ballot
————————-
Mordecai Brown
Dwight Evans
Willie Randolph

dr. remulak
Guest

Pettitte, Paige, Nettles & Randolph, M.Brown, Dawson.

Dave Humbert
Guest

Vote:

Primary ballot: Wallace, Dahlen, K. Brown
Secondary ballot: M. Brown, Dw. Evans, Reuschel

My primary choices should be no surprise, I’ve backed all of them before.

Really believe Three Finger deserves another look on the main ballot and stands out a bit from the hard-to-differentiate secondary pack.

CursedClevelander
Guest

For the primary ballot, I’ll stick with my vote from last time”
K. Brown
Nettles
Manny

For secondary:
Dawson
Evans
Boyer

Brendan Bingham
Guest

Primary ballot:
Ted Simmons, Luis Tiant, Dick Allen

Secondary:
Willie Randolph, Dwight Evans, Ken Boyer

Scary Tuna
Guest

Primary Ballot: Paige, Wallace, Simmons.
Secondary Ballot: M. Brown, Dawson, Randolph.

bells
Guest

Yipes! I guess I took up all my posting time and energy this week on the long case for Paige, and almost didn’t come back to vote in time! Phew. Glad to see a lot of healthy discussion around Satchel this week, on top of the always healthy discussion here in general. Here are my ballots:

Primary:

Paige
Allen
Tiant

Secondary:

Reuschel
Lyons
Randolph

e pluribus munu
Guest
Well, here are the final vote totals for Round 126, as I count them: Primary Ballot With 22 votes received: =================50% (11) 9 – Satchel Paige* 7 – Kevin Brown, Ted Simmons*, Bobby Wallace* 6 – Bill Dahlen, Manny Ramirez, Luis Tiant =================25% (6) 5 – Dick Allen 4 – Graig Nettles 3 – Richie Ashburn*, Don Sutton* =================10% (3) 1 – Nomar Garciaparra*, Todd Helton*, Andy Pettitte* Voters: Jeff Harris, mosc, Paul E, JEV, Doom, Hartvig, epm, opal611, Doug, Andy, Voomo, Mike L, Hub Kid, Josh Davis, T-Bone, Chris C, dr. remulak, Dave Humbert, Cursed Clevelander, Brendan Bingham, Scary… Read more »
Dr. Doom
Guest

I have the same count. If Doug DOES use the same tiebreaker as the redemption round, I believe that would elevate Brown to the ballot; however, I’m not really sure a tiebreaker is even needed. I don’t see why we couldn’t/shouldn’t just elevate both… but that’s just me.

e pluribus munu
Guest
Since this is a new protocol that hasn’t yet settled into place, and the secondary ballot is going to be swelled by three new names next round (and I can see that happening regularly as posters cast “shout-out” votes to newly eligible players who are unlikely to get other types of votes), I’d support modifying the rule such that in the case of a two-way tie, both players move on to the primary ballot. In the case of more than two, the established tie-breaker rule would select one. (And I agree that according to the rule used to break redemption… Read more »
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