Circle of Greats 1975 Balloting Part 1

This post is for voting and discussion in the 133rd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This is the first of two rounds of balloting adding to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1975. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1975-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This first group of 1975-born candidates, comprising those with A-J surnames, joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

In addition to voting for COG election among players on the main ballot, there will be also be voting for elevation to the main ballot among players on the secondary ballot. For the main ballot election, voters must select three and only three eligible players, with the one player appearing on the most ballots cast in the round inducted into the Circle of Greats. For the secondary ballot election, voters may select up to three eligible players, with the one player appearing on the most ballots cast elevated to the main ballot for the next COG election round. In the case of ties, a runoff election round will be held for COG election, while a tie-breaking process will be followed to determine the secondary ballot winner.

Players who fail to win either ballot but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. One additional round of eligibility is earned by any player who appears on at least 10% of the ballots cast or, for the main ballot only, any player finishing in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances. Holdover candidates on the main ballot who exhaust their eligibility will drop to the secondary ballot for the next COG election round, as will first time main ballot candidates who attract one or more votes but do not earn additional main ballot eligibility. Secondary ballot candidates who exhaust their eligibility will drop from that ballot, but will become eligible for possible reinstatement in a future Redemption round election.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Sunday, February 9th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Friday, February 7th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1975 Part 1 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also in the spreadsheet is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1975 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players, for both the main and secondary ballots, from the lists below of eligible players. The current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1975 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:

MAIN BALLOT ELIGIBILITY SECONDARY BALLOT ELIGIBILITY
Manny Ramirez 8 rounds Willie Randolph 11 rounds
Luis Tiant 8 rounds Todd Helton 9 rounds
Dick Allen 7 rounds Bobby Abreu 3 rounds
Bill Dahlen 5 rounds Stan Coveleski 3 rounds
Bobby Wallace 3 rounds Monte Irvin 3 rounds
Andre Dawson 2 rounds Minnie Minoso 3 rounds
Ted Lyons 2 rounds Ken Boyer 2 rounds
Graig Nettles 2 rounds Andy Pettitte 2 rounds
Ted Simmons 2 rounds Don Drysdale this round ONLY
Don Sutton 2 rounds Gary Sheffield this round ONLY
Richie Ashburn this round ONLY Reggie Smith this round ONLY
Rick Reuschel this round ONLY Billy Williams this round ONLY

Everyday Players (born in 1975, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR, A-J surname):
Torii Hunter
Mark DeRosa
Vladimir Guerrero
Luis Castillo
Rod Barajas
Russell Branyan
Alex Cora
J.D. Drew
Carlos Guillen
Ronnie Belliard
Pedro Feliz
David Eckstein
Karim Garcia
Jacque Jones

Pitchers (born in 1975, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR, A-J surname):
Livan Hernandez
Tim Hudson
Chris Carpenter
Randy Choate
Francisco Cordero
Doug Davis
Rafael Betancourt
Brian Fuentes
Shawn Camp
Felix Heredia

As is our custom with first time candidates, here is a factoid and related quiz question on each of the new players on the ballot.

  1. Torii Hunter recorded 9 consecutive qualified seasons aged 30-38 with OPS+ in the narrow range of 110 to 129. Which two players have the second longest streaks of such seasons during that period of their careers? (Sam Rice 1920-26, Raul Ibanez 2002-08)
  2. Tim Hudson posted a .600 W-L% in six consecutive qualified seasons (2000-05) before age 30. Which pitcher has the only longer streak of such seasons in the live ball era (since 1920)? (Roger Clemens, 1986-92)
  3. Livan Hernandez in 2004 became the most recent pitcher to post a losing record while leading his league in IP, BF and CG. Who is the last AL pitcher to do this? (Dennis Martinez, 1979)
  4. Mark DeRosa played over 500 games and compiled over 2000 AB aged 31-34, both marks exceeding his career totals through age 30. Which expansion era player did the same, after debuting before age 25 (like DeRosa) and playing fewer games than DeRosa through age 30? (Mike Easler)
  5. Vladimir Guerrero in 2002 became the second NL player (after Duke Snider in 1950) to lead his league in H, TB and CS. Which two AL players did the same? (Ty Cobb 1915,  Snuffy Stirnweiss 1945)
  6. Randy Choate’s 14 seasons with fewer than 50 IP are the most for any pitcher. Among pitchers with 10 or more such seasons, who recorded the most career IP? (Jesse Orosco)
  7. Chris Carpenter posted a 3.07 career ERA in the NL, but a 4.83 mark in the AL, a 1.76 run difference between leagues that is the largest among pitchers with 2000 IP careers including 800 IP in each league. Which pitcher in that group has the biggest ERA difference favoring his AL service? (Barry Zito, 1.04 ER better in AL)
  8. Luis Castillo’s 1683 games at 2B ranks as the third highest total among players with no games at any other position. Which player leads that list? (Bobby Doerr: 1852 games; or, allowing DH games, Lou Whitaker: 2308 games) 
  9. Francisco Cordero is the only player to pitch 200 games for the Reds and Rangers. Which teammate of Cordero’s also played 200 games for each of those franchises? (Laynce Nix)
  10. Rod Barajas is the only non-pitcher to compile a 1000 game career and hit only one triple. Which non-pitcher had the longest career without hitting any triples? (Johnny Estrada, 612 games)
  11. Carlos Guillen recorded a qualified .300/.400/.500 season in 2006. Before Guillen, who was the last shortstop with such a season aged 30 or older? (Lou Boudreau, 1948)
  12. J.D. Drew ‘s 2004 season is one of only fourteen with 115+ walks, runs and strikeouts. Who was the first player to post such a season? (Mickey Mantle, 1958)
  13. Alex Cora’s 1273 game career is the shortest among players with 500 games at both 2B and SS. Whose record did Cora break? (Mariano Duncan, 1279 games)
  14. Russell Branyan is the only player with 1000 strikeouts to post a 50% career TTO. Among players, like Branyan, to play for 10 or more franchises, who compiled the most career strikeouts? (Royce Clayton)
  15. Doug Davis is one of only three left-handers to pitch in the current century and post career totals including 1500 IP, SO/BB under 1.65 and HR/9 under 1.0? Who are the other two? (Mike Hampton, Shawn Estes)
  16. Ronnie Belliard stroked 328 doubles in a 5641 PA career, a 5.8% rate that is 5th highest among retired second basemen with 5000 PA careers. Which of those second basemen with a higher career doubles rate was active before the 1992 season? (Nap Lajoie)
  17. Rafael Betancourt posted five 50+ IP seasons aged 30-37 with 150 ERA+ and ERA under 3.00. Which two relievers posted more such seasons during that period of their careers? (Mariano Rivera, Joe Nathan)
  18. Brian Fuentes’ 115 saves as a Rockie is a franchise record. Which two pitchers hold franchise saves records for more than one franchise? (Jonathan Papelbon: Phillies/Red Sox; Rob Nen: Marlins/Giants)
  19. Shawn Camp is one of 14 relief pitchers to record 65 IP and 100 ERA+ each season aged 33-36. Which of those pitchers was the first to do this? (Bobby Shantz, 1959-62)
  20. Pedro Feliz played over 600 games from 2004 to 2007 but totaled only 0.5 oWAR for those four seasons, each of which featured fewer than 150 hits, OPS under 0.800 and an OBP of less than two times ISO. Which other two players have posted four such qualified seasons consecutively? (Jody Davis 1983-86, Rob Deer 1988-91)
  21. David Eckstein is one of 14 shortstops with 150 games played in a debut season. Which of those players led his league in games played in his debut season? (Topper Rigney, 1922)
  22. Jacque Jones played 250 games in both LF and RF for the Twins. Which other Twin outfielder did the same? (Bob Allison)
  23. Felix Heredia is the youngest player to pitch in relief in the 9th inning of a World Series game 7 with a score differential of one run or less. Who is the youngest pitcher to win a sudden death World Series game in relief? (Smoky Joe Wood, 1912)
  24. Karim Garcia leads all Mexican-born players in career World Series games played. Who is the youngest Mexican-born player to appear in a World Series game? (Fernando Valenzuela, 1981)
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Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
7 months ago

Main ballot: Ramirez, Allen, Dahlen
Second ballot: Sheffield, Randolph, Helton

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago

Answer #5 for the Vlad Guerrero question is Ty Cobb (1915)

Doug
Doug
7 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

I missed Cobb, so there were two players who led the AL in H, TB and CS.

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Snuffy Stirnweiss (1945)…and let’s not forget Duke Snider in the NL in 1950

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

” “(I really botched that question)” ”
Nah….the questions are certainly entertaining and very relevant to each player. The format works well. Keep up the good work and research
Thanks again

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago

#12 is Jimmie Foxx (1936). This was a first guess confirmation (as opposed to #5 of which Cobb was about my fifth guess ()

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Sorry, Foxx is not the guy :-(…I was looking for K’s, R Rbi – ADHD 🙁

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

#12 MIGHT be Mantle (1958)

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Not MIGHT, but WAS.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago

Question 21: Topper Rigney in 1922, 155 games.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago

Question 10: Johnny Estrada with 612 games.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago

Question 1: Raul Ibanez and Sam Rice.

Andy
Andy
7 months ago

Primary: Dalhen, Nettles, Guerrero
Secondary: Helton, Coveleski, Minoso

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago

#15, Doug Davis question:
Tom Glavine & Kenny Rogers. But, I believe they (along with Davis) may be the only LH’s with > 1,500 IP who are at </= 1.65 on K/BB for the period (2000-2019) regardless of HR/9 surrendered?

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

OK
Mike Hampton; Kirk Reuter ?

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago

Q2: Is it Bob Feller? He had 7 consecutive seasons of .600+… but they were interrupted by his War seasons. Let me know if I have to look for another (but I do think he should count).

Q14: Matt Stairs, Greg Byrd, and the correct answer, Todd Zeile, all played for 10+ franchises and struck out more than Branyan.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Feller was discharged from the armed services in August 1945 and pitched 72 innings for the Indians afterwards. That interrupted his qualifying season streak.

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Ed Reulbach?

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Whitey Ford!!

Doug
Doug
7 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Not Whitey. He had just four consecutive qualified seasons (1953-56) before age 30 with .600 W-L% (but 7 straight later in his career, from 1958 to 1964).

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

So, I’ve now gotten TWO correct choices screwed up by wars (Feller for WWII, Ford by Korea, who surely would’ve had another couple qualified seasons in ’51 and ’52). I thought, “Who could this POSSIBLY be?” I tried some guys. I tried unusual guys, because I thought FOR SURE this would be hard. But as it turns out, it’s Roger Clemens:
Seven straight, 1986-1992, four ERA titles, and a .683 W-L%.
Roger Clemens. I was out-smarting myself, thinking it couldn’t POSSIBLY be someone that obvious. Ugh; well, that’s what I get for not checking the obvious ones first!

Doug
Doug
7 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

After his run of seven straight, Roger went 0 for his next four seasons. Then, magically (thanks to wonders of modern pharmacology?), his old form returned, and he did it 8 of his next 9 seasons (with one more W or one fewer L in ’99, it would have been 9 out of 9).

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Of course, from 1993-1996, Clemens had a 130 ERA+. As I’ve shown on this site several times, you can extrapolate a W-L record from an ERA+ and IP. An ERA+ of 130 predicts a .628 W-L%, and 745 IP predicts 83 decisions for an assumed W-L record of 52-31; Clemens’ actual record was 40-39. For his career, Clemens actually had a .658 W-L%. My formula predicts .671 for Clemens. Changing his record over those four seasons from 40-39 to 52-31 would give Clemens a .675 W-L%. In other words, Clemens, over the rest of his career, was almost PERFECTLY luck-neutral… Read more »

Doug
Doug
7 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Interesting perspective on those seasons. The sudden turn in fortunes in ’97 in Toronto, especially the big innings totals, speaks to more than just good luck returning (as does maintaining that form well into his forties).

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Royce Clayton?

Doug
Doug
7 months ago

It is Clayton, an OTO guy with a career MPW of 1.67 (that’s millions of salary dollars per WAR).

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Alfredo Griffin, in an era of lower salaries, made 2.19 MPW. Dante Bichette made 7.50 MPW. Willie Bloomquist made 10.70 MPW. I’m sure there are others who are more extreme, but these guys had real careers. Probably tough to find players with a positive WAR who were more costly. If I were smarter and had more time, I’d normalize for era (see below) and we could find out who some of the all-time leaders were. In today’s game, the average payroll is right around $90M. The average team ends the season with 30 WAR (roughly; I don’t remember what Baseball-Reference… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Daniel Descalso has made $11,160,000 so far with a career WAR of 0.6. Now, that’s a bit unfair, since his 2019 was really atrocious – it contributed -1.4 WAR. So before then, he wasn’t that bad. He’s guaranteed at least another $2.5M next year, has $250K in bonus money that can be earned based on PA’s, and his 2021 option of $3.5M has a $1M buy-out. So if he gets injured next year and doesn’t hit any of those PA cut-offs, then retires after his buy-out, he’d pocket $14,660,000 on that 0.6 WAR.

Mike L
Mike L
7 months ago

Ryan Howard made 190M for 15WAR. Prince Fielder $239M for 23.2WAR

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

I guess that makes Greinke a lock? Gun to your head: Greinke or Hudson? By the same token, I just never believed I was watching a Hall of Famer when Hudson pitched…..I dunno

Doug
Doug
7 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Greinke does look good, especially with another effective season or two.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Greinke over Hudson, no question. Greinke’s ’09 and ’15 seasons were quite possibly two of the best 10 seasons this millenium, by any pitcher. Case in point: Since 2000, only five players have had a 9.0-WAR season: Randy Johnson (2001 & 2002) Pedro Martinez (2000) Aaron Nola (2018) Jacob deGrom (2018) Zack Greinke (2009 & 2015) Since 2000, players with a W-L% of .600 & 200+ W: CC Sabathia, 251-161 Justin Verlander, 225-129 Tim Hudson, 211-131 Zack Greinke, 205-123 (HM: Roy Halladay, who misses the list because he didn’t quite win 200 in the given timeframe: 194-98) 2000-2019, seasons with… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Whoops; that last group is players with 5+ seasons of 200K. I didn’t include the guys with 4. There were a few, though. Mostly very good pitchers, overall. I destroyed my spreadsheet, though (which is what we with no P-I subscription need to use for such things), and I don’t want to re-create it. Just wanted to make clear that there ARE more players with 4+ seasons; I just didn’t list them.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago

Question 7: Barry Zito had a 3.58 ERA in the AL and 4.62 in the NL, a differential of 1.04.

Doug
Doug
7 months ago

Zito is the one. Evidently he preferred the warmer climes of the East Bay.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

Question 8: Appears to be Bobby Doerr (1,865 games), with the #2 man being Laughing Larry Doyle.

Doug
Doug
7 months ago

That’s it. If you don’t consider DH to be a position, then Lou Whitaker would be the one with 2308 games.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

15. Is the other one Jim Abbott?

Doug
Doug
7 months ago

Not Abbott. Here’s a hint: he was a teammate of Rueter’s with the Giants.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Shawn Estes?

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

18. Was looking up somebody I thought was an answer (Billy Wagner), and stumbled onto one of the correct ones – Papelbon, who leads for both the Red Sox and Phillies.

Chris C
Chris C
7 months ago

Main Ballot:
Manny, Hudson, Vlad

Secondary Ballot:
Randolph, Sheffield, Minoso

JEV
JEV
7 months ago

Primary: Ramirez, Simmons, Guerrero
Secondary: Abreu, Coveleski, Sheffield

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

So, the newcomers – we can all agree Vlad is at least in the CoG discussion, right? I think he has a tough case to prove that he’s the superior of MannyBManny, Sheffield, Ashburn, Allen, etc. – but he is worthy of arguing about. Now what about Hudson? I think he has a good argument for the Hall – but does he belong in the mix with Tiant, Reuschle, Sutton and Lyons? By similarity scores, he’s most similar to – paging Dr. Doom – Kevin Brown. JAWS has him at 83rd – one above Orel Hershiser, one below Bucky Walters.… Read more »

Doug
Doug
7 months ago

Agreed on CoG chances for Hudson. CoG pitchers at his WAR level (e.g. Ferrell, Koufax, M. Brown) seem to need an outstanding peak to be seen as CoG-worthy. Perhaps the most similar pitcher to Hudson who is in the CoG is Whitey Ford; both had similar WAR from long careers without a huge peak, but Ford has the black and gray ink that Hudson lacks, and was generally regarded as his league’s top pitcher for a large part of his career, status that Hudson never attained. Given the comparables you mentioned, seems that Hudson’s HoF argument is a bit doubtful… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago

Q4. Raul Ibanez, if I’m understanding the syntax of the question correctly.

Doug
Doug
7 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Not Ibanez. He played 472 games through his age 30 season, 13 more than DeRosa for the same period.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

I came up with Mike Easler, 339 games.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Shoot, I was looking BEFORE age 30, not THROUGH age 30. Ibanez seemed like the right “type” of player. He was the first I thought of, the first I checked, and here I thought I was so smart!

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago

Question 3: Dennis Martinez in 1979.

Voomo
Voomo
7 months ago

Main ballot vote:

Richie Ashburn
Ted Lyons
Manny Ramirez
________________

Lyons joined the Marines at age 41 after a 4.8 WAR season.

Richard Ashburn had durability, speed, CF defense, hit for average. Had everything but power. If I’m building a team I want a Richie Ashburn.

Manny averaged 45 Rbat over a 12-year peak. I’ll overlook the steroids and the crappy baserunning/fielding. He was Great at something.

Voomo
Voomo
7 months ago

Secondary ballot vote:

Bobby Abreu
Stan Coveleski
Willie Randolph

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago

Question 13: Alex Cora broke the record held by Mariano Duncan, 1279 games.

opal611
opal611
7 months ago

For the 1975 Part 4 election, I’m voting for:

-Manny Ramirez
-Don Sutton
-Andre Dawson

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Guerrero
-Reuschel
-Tiant
-Ashburn
-Nettles
-Allen
-Wallace
-Dahlen
-Lyons

Thanks!

opal611
opal611
7 months ago

For the Secondary Ballot, I’m voting for:
-Todd Helton
-Willie Randolph
-Bobby Abreu

Thanks!

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago

Q18. I could only figure out one – Jonathan Papelbon (Boston & Philadelphia)

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I posted that one above, so I may as well post the other. I did need help, but I started by going through ones I knew in my head – or thought I did. In my head, I thought Mike Henneman would be the leader for the Tigers (it’s actually Todd Jones). But I eventually knew it had to be the leader for the Marlins or Pirates – and amazingly, the leader for the Pirates is still good old Elroy Face! The Marlins leader, with 108, is Robb Nen – who also leads the Giants with 206. Another of my… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

6. This is another one that shouldn’t have taken so long, because it’s exactly who you think it is – it’s Jesse Orosco.

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago

Main: Allen, Dahlen, Simmons
2nd Ballot: Coveleski, Sheffield, Williams

Bruce Gilbert
Bruce Gilbert
7 months ago

Main ballot: Dahlen, Sutton & Lyons
Secondary ballot: Minoso, Ken Boyer & Andy Pettitte.

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago

#22 Bob Allison ?

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Temple University and Frankford HS’s own, Bobby Higginson. I literally scrolled down the b-ref “Leaders” tab for career games played and came to # 930 and saw Higginson. He wasn’t my first stop on the way down the list but he is in pretty good company there with Musial and Allison.
THAT trivia question will definitely buy some drinks in a corner bar

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

I thought I immediately had it with Bob Meusel, but he apparently ended his career with one season in Cincinnati.

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago

Meusel was my first guess as well since he was supposed to have a RF’er’s fantastic arm and played a good bit in LF because Ruth was in RF with his great arm already

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Ruth was really a LF but he refused to play at ball parks in which LF was the sun field. Those parks were Yankee Stadium, Griffith Stadium and Cleveland’s League Park and Ruth played RF in those parks.

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago

Richard
Thanks for the info…. Kind of makes sense since his career games in LF vs RF are almost even

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug,
The Saux and NYY were easy enough couldn’t guess the 5th of the other franchises guys: Kaline, Clemente, Ott, Gwynn, and ?

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

17. I mean, one of these *has* to be Mariano RIvera, right? And If I understand the question, it looks like the second guy is Joe Nathan.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago

Question 11: Lou Boudreau in 1948

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
7 months ago

Primary: Ashburn, Dahlen, Guerrero
Secondary: Minoso, Boyer, Helton

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

23. Is it Smokey Joe Wood?

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago

CC
My first guess was the hero of 1909 WS Babe Adams but he was pitching nothing but complete games – 3 of them. My point in all this is check out the unearned run totals in the summary of the 1909 WS:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/1909_WS.shtml

Maybe we shouldn’t pick on Allen, Manny, and Sheffield for their iron gloves?

Doug
Doug
7 months ago

It is Wood. He was just shy of his 23rd birthday when he pitched the last 3 innings of Boston’s 3-2 win over the Giants in game 8 of the 1912 World Series (game 8 was a sudden death game, because of a tie in game 2). Wood seemed destined to take the loss after allowing a 10th inning RBI single by Fred Merkle, but the Red Sox rallied with a pair in the bottom of the frame to change that decision to a win. It was sweet redemption for Wood who was shelled as the game 7 starter (6… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago

Main: Lyons, Simmons, Allen
Secondary: Williams, Minoso, Sheffield

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

Main: Ramirez, Nettles, Dahlen Secondary: Sheffield, Coveleski, Irvin With my vote, I’ll also give the current totals (with 11 ballots in, counting my own): Main: 6 – Manny B Manny (no stranger to run-offs – can we finally break out of the pack?) —50% cut-off— 5 – Bad Bill Dahlen, Big Bad Vladdy Daddy 3 – Allen, Lyons, Simba —25% cut-off— 2 – Nettles, Ashburn, Sutton —10% cut-off— 1 – Hudson, Dawson 0 – Reuschel, Tiant, Wallace (those second two have eligibility to spare, but Big Daddy is headed for the secondary ballot if things don’t turn around) Secondary: 6… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago

At this point, I had four for Guerrero (Andy, Chris C, JEV, and Gary Bateman) and six for Dahlen (Jeff Harris, Andy, Paul E, Bruce Gilbert, Gary Bateman, and CursedClevelander). I think I have that right. If I’m wrong on something, let me know. Otherwise, our totals match.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

You’re right – I didn’t catch Andy’s vote for Dahlen because of a misspelling. So my vote update below is wrong. I will post a new one.

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
7 months ago

Main: Manny, Dahlen, Wallace
Secondary: Sheffield, Smith, Drysdale

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
7 months ago

Primary: Manny Ramirez, Dick Allen, Luis Tiant
Secondary: Reggie Smith, Billy Williams, Bobby Abreu

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

24. I mean, it took a while for anyone to make a guess, but this is just Fernando Valenzuela, right? He was just shy of his 21st birthday in the 1981 WS – I can’t find anybody else close to that. Julio Urias would have beaten him if the Dodgers won the 2016 pennant. He ws over 22 by the time he finally did make it in 2018.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

For the unsolved ones, I looked up #9. I’ll be amazed if anyone gets it without using the P-I or just manual searching. I’ll give a hint – his brother also played in the MLB, and they both have an unnecessary Y in their first names.

I haven’t worked out 16, 19 or 20 yet because they’re pretty complex.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 months ago

For number 16 I got Nap Lajoie. I have answers for numbers 19 and 20 but I’ll leave them for others to solve.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

Yup – he has the highest rate of any second baseman with over 5,000 career PA’s. Robinson Cano appears to be the only other one above 6%. The others that qualified per the question were Jeff Kent, Dustin Pedroia, and Brian Roberts.

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago

If I were to just guess #20 off the top of my head it would have to be Ken Reitz….he hit like a GG SS . Just no punch…no walks…. not even any batting average
And, he played everyday for a good while

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

19. At first I thought this was Kent Tekulve, especially since one of those seasons was exactlty 65 IP, but it looks like Grant Jackson might have beat him to it? Also of note, one of those 14 reflief pitchers – Francisco Cordero from this same ballot.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Ah, I see now who I had missed. It’s Clay Carroll, then.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

For #20, there are a lot of these seasons. And guys like Kingman, Gaetti, and Brunansky racked up tons. But it looks like the only two to match Feliz with four consecutive seasons are Rob Deer (who should have been an easy guess) and Jody Davis (who is a slightly harder one to determine without just hard searching).

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago

Main Ballot: Don Sutton Dick Allen Graig Nettles I’m not really sure on any of these guys, other than Sutton, whom I think is clearly the best player left on the ballot. This is an insanely busy week for me, else I would’ve written one of my long soliloquies on why Sutton deserves to be in. Perhaps I’ll get the chance in the next round, if life settles down a bit. Allen and Nettles… man, both of those guys have huge drawbacks… but it’s getting harder and harder to find guys who don’t at this point. So, what the heck:… Read more »

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
7 months ago

On #19, I will guess Bobby Shantz, although he started a few games during that time.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago
Reply to  Gary Bateman

I think this is it – my problem was using too high of a cut-off for “reliever” (I used 90% of games). Drop that to 80%, and Shantz shows up, well before Carroll and Jackson.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

Ballot Update Through Dr. Doom’s Ballot (14 ballots cast) Main: 8 – Manny B Manny —50% cut-off— 6 – Dahlen 5 – Vladdy, Allen —25% cut-off— 3 – Lyons, Simba, Nettles, Sutton 2 – Ashburn —10% cut-off— 1 – Hudson, Dawson, Wallace, Tiant (Huddy needs one more vote to avoid dropping to the Secondary) 0 – Reuschel (looking very likely to fall to the Secondary ballot) Secondary: 8 – Sheffield —50% cut-off— 5 – Minoso, Coveleski, Helton 4 – Randolph, Abreu —25% cut-off— 3 – Williams 2 – Boyer, Smith, Drysdale —10% cut-off— 1 – Irvin, Pettitte (No one on… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

CORRECT Ballot Update Through Dr. Doom’s Ballot (14 ballots cast) (Thanks to Dr. Doom for double-checking my tallies) Main: 8 – Manny B Manny 7 – Dahlen —50% cut-off— 5 – Allen 4 – Vladdy —25% cut-off— 3 – Lyons, Simba, Nettles, Sutton 2 – Ashburn —10% cut-off— 1 – Hudson, Dawson, Wallace, Tiant (Huddy needs one more vote to avoid dropping to the Secondary) 0 – Reuschel (looking very likely to fall to the Secondary ballot) Secondary: 8 – Sheffield —50% cut-off— 5 – Minoso, Coveleski, Helton 4 – Randolph, Abreu —25% cut-off— 3 – Williams 2 – Boyer,… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug
I don’t know if anyone pays attention to the website but, the Baseball Gauge has Reuschel at a less head-scratching 56.4 WAR:

https://www.thebaseballgauge.com/player.php?playerID=reuscri01

This site doesn’t hammer mediocre fielders either, apparently, or just gives less weight to fielding prowess for the everyday eight guys

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

(First, for anyone who follows the link will have to change the upper righthand corner dropdown to “gWAR” if you’d like to see what Paul is talking about.) With regard to fielding, it’s mostly that it uses DRA, developed by Michael Humphreys. It’s a little different than the other fielding systems in that it uses only “traditional” fielding data (much like TotalZone used to for Baseball-Reference, or like Win Shares did for Bill James (of course, Win Shares fielding has a HUGE problem, but that’s for a different discussion). Gary Sheffield is the player who benefits most – 60.5 WAR… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

9. So, as the deadline approaches, I’ll round out the trivia slate by giving this answer – LaYnce Nix, who like his brother, JaYson Nix, has an extra Y in his name. I remember Jayson’s not very memorable stint on the Indians in 2010. (Actually, that team was so bad, I thought he deserved more playing time) I remember very little about his brother. Maybe Doom remembers his dreadful back to back cameo seasons with the Brewers (2007 and 2008) where he went 1 for 24?

Paul E
Paul E
7 months ago

CC,
All i remember about either of them was LaYnce’s uniform was always one size too small

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago

I do remember Laynce Nix. He did, however, go 0-4 in a VERY memorable series: Milwaukee’s winning their final 2 games against San Diego that prevented the Padres from possessing the NL’s best record. It forced the one-game playoff with the Rockies on Colorado’s memorable run to the World Series. It also featured the game (#161) in which Tony Gwynn, Jr. scored the winning run in the 11th inning to defeat Dad’s old team and eliminate San Diego from the division race. 2007 was a crazy season in Milwaukee. The team had started 24-10. At the All-Star break, JJ Hardy… Read more »

Doug
Doug
7 months ago

Jayson has one of the more bizarre transactions logs that you’ll see, including being purchased twice by the Phillies, but playing only 18 games for them; and being signed by the Rays as a FA twice in four months, and never playing for them.

His final team was the 2014 Royals for whom he struck out 6 times in 9 hitless PA, and was rewarded by making their post-season roster(?). He then struck out twice more in 3 hitless post-season PA, including two WS appearances and an 11th inning strikeout in the ALWC with the winning run on third.

Doug
Doug
7 months ago

I’m going to go with Reuschel on the strength of his WAR, especially with agreement from FanGraphs and Dr.Doom! What I noticed is that Reuschel and Sutton have identical BR WAR, but FanGraphs gives Sutton a whopping 85.5 WAR! But, on a WAR per IP basis, it’s not really that close with Reuschel at 1.92 per 100 IP, and Sutton at 1.29, 1.62 or 1.46, using, respectively, BR, FG or their average. BR has 21 retired pitchers with 65 WAR since 1901 and 1.9 WAR per 100 IP. All are in the CoG except Reuschel and Coveleski. Obviously Reuschel is… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
7 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Not disputing your choice, but when you look at Reushel’s traditional/semi traditional stats, with the exception of his stinginess in giving up the long ball, they don’t jump out at you as “HOF”. Three seasons in the top ten in ERA, two in WHIP, and not once did he ever lead the league in any of the “triple crown” categories. His Black Ink and Grey Ink are way below average for a HOF. It’s just WAR. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t very good (and he had a few standout years) but WAR is the rationale. Got bounced the first time… Read more »

Doug
Doug
7 months ago
Reply to  Mike L

You are right, of course, that it’s only about WAR. And, like most of us (I think), I struggle with understanding exactly how he did it. But, the consistency between BR and FG (and with Doom’s heuristic method), and the high WAR rate make me think he at least merits another look. Perhaps, he can attract another vote to stay on the ballot. Incidentally, there are three active pitchers (Verlander, Greinke, Kershaw) who meet the 65 WAR/1.9 WAR per 100 IP threshold, and two more (Scherzer, Hamels) who may get there in 2 or 3 years. Hamels is another Rueschel;… Read more »

Josh Davis
Josh Davis
7 months ago

Primary: Manny Ramirez, Ted Simmons, Bill Dahlen
Secondary: Ken Boyer, Todd Helton, Minnie Minoso

Bells
Bells
7 months ago

Oh shoot! I almost missed the CoG round, and definitely missed the redemption round! Well, I hastily updated my spreadsheet that’s laid dormant for the past year, and here is my token vote for this round:

Main Ballot – Dahlen, Allen, Reuschel
Secondary – Drysdale, Coveleski, Minoso

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
7 months ago

Well Bells, you did make the deadline. Here’s the final tally as I have it. I await Dr. Doom’s double-check, as he is the PriceWaterhouseCoopers of HHS. Final Results (17 ballots) Main: 10 – Manny B Manny 9 – Dahlen —50% cut-off— 6 – Allen —25% cut-off— 4 – Vladdy, Simba 3 – Lyons, Nettles, Sutton 2 – Ashburn, Reuschel, Wallace —10% cut-off— 1 – Hudson, Dawson, Tiant Elected to CoG: Manny Falls to Secondary: Hudson Losing eligibility rounds: Dawson (who is down to his last), Tiant (who has 7 left) Gaining eligibility rounds: Dahlen (+4), Allen (+2), Vlad, Simmons,… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
7 months ago

FWIW, my count matches yours!