A tweet by ESPN baseball writer Buster Olney has me thinking. Buster tweeted a little earlier:
Tim Kurkjian and I have argued whether Rivera would be on the Yankees’ Mt. Rushmore. I say yes, with Ruth, Gehrig and DiMaggio; he says no.
— Buster Olney (@Buster_ESPN) May 4, 2012
It’s an easy time to offer sympathy for the longtime Yankees closer, who injured himself this evening shagging balls in the outfield before a game, though I think Olney is going a little far here. I don’t see how anyone other than Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, and Mickey Mantle are the Bronx Bombers’ equivalent of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Teddy Roosevelt, and Abe Lincoln. At most, Mariano Rivera is Harry Truman, the best relief president in American history, but no one who deserved to have his visage retroactively chiseled into a mountain.
I think Olney’s idea could be extended throughout the majors. For my favorite team, the Giants, I go Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Willie Mays, and Barry Bonds, and if I’m being a homer, I also find a spot on that mountain for Will Clark. He’s my all-time favorite player and one of my childhood heroes, though I’ll concede that for purposes of presidential metaphors, Clark might be Woodrow Wilson, another man whose talent and potential exceeded his accomplishments and who some say was a racist.
To anyone reading: Which four players are on your team’s Baseball Mount Rushmore?
Love this concept. For the Mets, I think that I would go Seaver, Strawberry, Gooden, and … that fourth one is the tough spot, isn’t it. HoJo? Alfonzo? Carter? Hernandez? Piazza? I hope that Wright will eventually make the discussion moot, but until then, I’ve got a Rushmore with only three guys on it.
On second thought, I think Carlos Beltran has a claim in there also. I can’t believe I overlooked him.
Nightfly, I await, with bated breath, John Autin’s weigh-in on the Mets’ mountaintop sculptures.
Absolutely, Neil. He’ll have a good case for the candidates as well. I’d love to see it.
Exhale, Neil!
I’m picking my Mets not strictly by WAR, but also by iconic stature. By both standards, one peak of this mountain looms far above the rest, and therefore I’m blatantly cheating and picking 5 guys:
Seaver
Gooden
Strawberry
Hernandez
Piazza
I’ve elevated Piazza and Keith over a couple of others because each represented light at the end of a tunnel. Koos had a longer peak than Gooden and slightly more WAR, but — while this is not his fault — I think a lot of Mets fans wouldn’t even know him if they saw him, so bright was Seaver’s star.
No fair picking five, John. 🙂
Gooden, Straw, Keith & Piazza are the Mount Rushmore. Seaver is the Crazy Horse Memorial.
http://crazyhorsememorial.org/
How about Ed Kranepool? 18 years with the Mets. At the very least, a Lifetime Achievement Award.
For the Mets’ fourth, I would give serious consideration to Jerry Koosman, on the theory that a World Series championship is an important consideration (doesn’t totally trump all other considerations but is an important factor), so I’d be tempted to take the two best from the two championship clubs: Straw and Doc, and Seaver and Koos. Conveniently, those are also four top WAR generators for the Mets as well. Wright is competitive with all but Seaver when he adds (a) a few more all-star type seasons, and/or (b)a ring.
I say for the Mets, David Wright will one day be right there in the 4th spot.
That’s all dependent on whether or not the Mets re-sign him after this year, though. God willing, they will.
My suggestion for the Mets (and with a nod of appreciation to E Pluribus Munu for suggesting my avatar for the Tigers memorial because of his unique appearance) would be Casey Stengel. Having followed baseball since the franchise was created I can attest that no one was more associated with the magical early days of the franchise than he.
Along the same lines as Stengel, Gil Hodges might make a good sentimental choice.
Good a place as any to make my Dodger picks, since no one else has: Robinson and Reese for sure, then Scully, and… dang that 4th pick IS tough… i’ll take LaSorda over Koufax, just barely. Sandy gets a statue of himself somewhere else, preserving that unique mystique. Tommy was Dodger Blue all the way. So:
Robinson
Reese
LaSorda
Scully
*Koufax
I would split the Dodgers into Brooklyn and Los Angeles and even then you would have to leave off so many well qualified candidates
Brooklyn- Duke Snider, Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, Gil Hodges, PeeWee Reese, Zach Wheat, Dazzy Vance, Uncle Robbie (Wilbert Robinson) not to mention the imortal Babe Herman
Los Angeles- Koufax & Drysdale of course or maybe Garvey, Lopes, Russell & Cey and Don Sutton, Fernando Valenzuela & the Bulldog, Piazza, maybe even Matt Kemp and Clayton Kershaw plus an old favorite of mine, Junior Gilliam, Plus you’ve got both Tommy LaSorda and Walter Alston.
I’m with Hartvig that the two Dodger identities can’t be fused into one mountain. And Brooklyn – although like many old franchises having great players spread out in different eras – has an unusual isolateed center of gravity in the post-War era and the core players of the 1947-56 teams that were integrated in more ways than one. So if a Mt. Brookmore were carved, I think it wouldn’t include even great players like Wheat and Vance (a prefiguring of Koufax in some ways). You’d need Robinson, Reese, and Campanella. Snider was their big power (and Furillo my personal favorite), but I’d vote for Hodges as the fouth face, thinking of the dynamic of that decade-long team.
If the entire franchise history were packed on one cliff, Robinson and Koufax would be my first two choices. I think the impact Koufax had on the game (and on three pennant-winning teams) is hard to overstate, and once he found his game, watching him pitch in the context of his time was stunning.
No, no, no. For those of us who go back far enough, one of the Mets has to be Eddie Kranepool. No fly-by-nighters like Piazza need apply. 🙂
Eddie has my vote, Mike. All those years, it felt as though the spirit of Marvelous Marv had never really left and was somehow there in Eddie, guzzling champaign with real ballplayers (did that really happen?). First-year Mets, Eddie at 17 and Casey at 71: a perfect couple. Put them between Tom and Doc and you’ve got the cognitive dissonance that is the essence of Mets.
Teams like the Mets should wait until they have enough true superstars before they carve out their Mt Rushmore. For now they can build one with a bust of Tom Seaver with enough room left to add four current or future players.
For the Brew Crew I think it has to be Yount, Molitor, Gantner, and probably Fielder. Though Braun would most likely take Fielder’s spot after another year or two.
Geez, after 1-2, they really don’t yet have a wealth of great names to choose from, esp. pitchers; just a lot of “good” or “not yet”. It’s tempting to put Aaron up there on largely ceremonial grounds (incl. 2 yrs as a Brewer), but i think i’d add the amazing Uecker instead!
I have to think Cecil Cooper deserves some consideration.
I agree. Cooper ahead of Gantner and Fielder, no doubt. I’d go with Yount, Molitor, Cooper and Higuera.
I agree, Bob Uecker, for all he did for the Brewers, like Ernie Harwell of the Tigers, would be a Brewers immortal.
Uecker is def. on there for an organization standpoint and I must admit I did not put him on there as I was thinking of just “players” as it was the original question.
So Graham, since you started this wonderful thread, what’s your ruling on non-players? Seems like in some cases, they’re very appropriate: Uecker, maybe Harwell, Veeck (Browns, Indians, ChiSox?), McGraw, C.Mack, C.Finley, H.Caray, maybe even Scully should crack the tough Dodger lineup?
And wow, no Dodger fans out there? If no one else does, i’ll take a crack at it soon.
I went with only players myself, though I think people can go in any direction they want with this and that the concept is meritocratic. If Veeck or Caray or any other non-player did enough by some people’s estimations for their Mount Rushmores, that’s cool by me.
Graham, you are only allowed four sculptures, not five! 🙂
Will Clark has to go. 🙂
In the long history of the Giants you have no one on your Mt. Rushmore before the 1960’s except Mel Ott?
I thought about Carl Hubbell and John McGraw (though I prefer to have players only in this.) Hubbell and Marichal seem like a toss-up for who’s better, though I have to admit I completely forgot Christy Mathewson, and he accomplished more than both of them. I’m swapping him in for Marichal.
Nice call, Graham. It is tough to pick your top four when your team’s history extends back well over a century
I would agree completely with Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott, Willie Mays, and Barry Bonds but not will clark as my fifth(if you are to add a fifth) . My choice for the fifth giant would probably have to be willie mccovey he had 19 great seasons for the giants and contributed to some great team. Never got that elusive ring was his only downfall.
You could fudge things a bit on your Giants choices by saying you’re building a Mount Rushmore for just the San Francisco version.
But Lukehart80, that ducks all the difficult choices. 🙂
That’s like saying there should be separate Expos and Nationals Mt Rushmores!
I hear you, but if you want Will Clark, you’ve got to duck something. Besides, separate NY/SF Rushmore’s would each still be more impressive than many other franchises could build.
I suppose we could go…
New York Giants: Mathewson, Ott, Hubbell, Terry
San Francisco Giants: Mays, McCovey, Marichal, Bonds
It’s funny, I actually removed the word “San Francisco” as I was writing this post so as not to create confusion and so I could get more players in.
I figure this exercise is a per-franchise thing, though for certain clubs that have essentially morphed into other teams (original Washington Senators becoming the Minnesota Twins, for instance) I realize there may be no way to avoid the confusion.
Good call on Bill Terry. He is a great old NY Giant, and I had the pleasure of meeting him some 30 years ago.
When I see teams like the Giants, and the Braves, I think you almost have to separate the city’s. For the NY Giants, until 1957, then SF after. Mays makes both squads, like Aaron does for Milwaukee/Atlanta. To choose only 4 for N.L. teams that go back into the 1800’s, is almost impossible. Also, Eddie Matthews would be on both the Boston and the Milwaukee Braves.
First three are easy – Aaron, Maddux, Spahn. The last one is tough. Mathews, Niekro, Murphy, Glavine and Smoltz are all worthy. I think I’ll give the last spot on the mountain to Chipper since he’ll be the only one out of the crew to spend his entire career with the Braves.
Aaron, Chipper, Spahn and Niekro. Hard to leave off Dale Murphy and Eddie Mathews though. I picked Niekro over Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz because he had the highest WAR, made more starts and won more games than any of them in a Braves uniform.
If I were to pick an all-Atlanta-Brave four, Niekro would have made the cut for me over Glavine and Smoltz for the same reasons you listed, along with Aaron, Chipper, and Maddux. But I think for the Braves team overall Maddux’ 3 Cy Young years and two of the most dominant ERA+ years in the history of baseball(’94 and ’95) and a World Series ring trump Niekro’s phenomenal longevity by a nose.
Great call, dayf! Hard to argue with your personal four-I think I would pick the same. Graham, once again another thought-provoking article, one which I predict will eventually pass the 100-comment threshold that has become the norm with your writings.
Thanks, bstar. The comment totals are a credit to this site having awesome readers. I recommend HHS primarily on the basis of how positive and knowledgeable people are here.
Oops, it seems once again, like many others, I’ve completely forgotten about Eddie Mathews. It’s weird but almost every time I try to list all the guys in the 500+ HR club by rote, I invariably forget Mathews. His 98+ WAR is a mark Chipper won’t reach, but Jones’ awesome .300/.400/.500 slash line is hard to ignore.
Matthews only guy would could be on Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta. He’s the only one to play in all 3 cities.
For my beloved Blue Jays, the first two spots are automatic: Alomar, the Jays’ only HOF member, and Stieb, (arguably)the best pitcher in franchise history, leading the team in many categories. The next two slots aren’t as easy to fill. Roy Halladay, you would think would be one, but you could make a case for Tom Henke. Carlos Delgado was very good for a long time for the Jays, but Vernon Wells is up there in the franchise leaders in many offensive categories.
Don’t know your age, Kevin, but, with respect, you can’t put Vernon up with Moseby.
Graham, do you figure post-season success should factor into the chiselled sculptures for our team?
I don’t think it’s obligatory, but if it’s a fundamental part of the team’s success it might qualify. Joe Carter might belong on the Blue Jays’ Rushmore, Bill Mazeroski on the Pirates’ version.
If postseason counts, i would think the Jays fans would want to add…….. Joe Carter?
Now, Shping, you are just being a dirt-disturber.
Shping, forgot the smiley faces with #38. 🙂 🙂
See my #38 below.
Ha ha, no, really didnt mean to unearth the Carter stone. And actually, Graham, beat me to it. But i am curious to see if Jays fans would agree. Otherwise, how about Garth Iorg? He just sounds like a guy who should be carved in stone.
If the postseason counts for that much, then the Jays have to have Mitch Williams on their Rushmore.
(How’s that for disturbing the dirt, Neil? 🙂 )
I’ll put kelly Gruber on the Blue Jays’Rushmore, but only because he was one of my all time favorite players.
Been a Blue Jays fan since 1985
Stieb
Halladay
Alomar
Delgado
Hard not putting Carter on there, even though ten years later I realized he was nowhere near as good as baseball told us he was. The home run is just so iconic.
Honourable mention – Tony Fernandez (he’d be my 5th place for the Jays)
We all wear our baseball caps on our sleeve in this blog.
OK, I’ll take a shot….. Dave Steib, Tony Fernandez, Carlos Delgado, Lloyd Moseby.
I’m 38. I can’t believe that I forgot Tony Fernandez. I was thinking about the Shaker too, but I wasn’t sure how to account for team success in my mind. Carter did cross my mind, but given the advances in sabermetrics, I decided to leave him off. Sustained excellence for the team would qualify yyou for consideration, I think.
Kevin, as an aside, have you posted frequently in HHS under your current display name? I don’t recall your previous comments but maybe I missed them.
Anyway, welcome aboard.
It’s hard to include the much-maligned Joe Carter on any top four list, even for a young franchise like the Blue Jays.
Thanks for the welcome! I got to this site through GB, and I tend to reply more often on Twitter. Funny, I ended up solving a few of the baseball anagrams that were put up, and checked on the site ever since. ( I’ve basted= Dave Stieb) Hopefully you can fill in my Expos starting post. I’m not old enough to remember Rick Monday or Ellis Valentine.
I’d say Alomar over Moseby. Steib, Fernandez, Delgado and Alomar. It’s hard not to put Hentgen and Halliday up there, and as suggested, Carter, for the “Touch ’em all, Joe!” moment, not for his entire body of work.
There are probably some that might argue that the four greatest Jays of all time are Gillick, Beeston, Cheek and Gaston.
But, bjstatsgeek, are you putiing Alomar on the Blue Jays’ mountain based on post-season exploits and peak value or based on longevity?
It’s hard for me not to penalize Alomar for his spitting incident even though he and Hirschbeck have long since reconciled about it.
Also, it’s hard not to award rock sculptures to Toronto franchise players who brought the team from expansion status to playoff contender….. the players from the ’80’s. The 1980’s were the greatest decade in franchise history, were they not?
He’s the only Jay in Cooperstown wearing the cap. Only Molitor, Rolen and Thomas have higher career totals for WAR among position players and none of them played for the Jays long enough to be considered for a Rushmore honour. (Halladay and Clemens are also ahead of him and Halladay is part of my selection of four.)
As for the Hirshbeck incident, it was a mistake, a huge mistake. Why I am willing to not penalize him for the mistake is because of the way Robbie and John have dealt with it since. All of us make mistakes; its what we do about them that defines us.
Sorry, Hallady is not on my list. My mistake. Halladay’s career WAR is about 10 ahead of Stieb’s, so it’s hard not to put Halladay there.
For the Indians, I’d go with Bob Feller, Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, and Jim Thome, but Larry Doby would be a hell of a pick too.
Indians are an interesting team. I could see a case being made for Lou Boudreau over Thome for what he meant to the franchise, particularly in helping Cleveland win its most recent World Series in 1948.
For the true flavor of the Indians’ futility though I’d have to go with Charlie Spikes, Sam McDowell, Jhonny Peralta and Matt LaPorta. 🙂
The futility monument MUST include Cory Snyder.
Ugh, I once traded my Donruss Canseco rookie for 8 of those Cory Snyder ’85 Topps Olympic cards. Was sure he was the real deal.
I can see the case for Boudreau too. For me though, Feller represents the 1948 team, allowing the great 90’s teams to also be represented with Thome involved.
What?
No love for Rick Vaughn or Willie Mays Hays?
Much love for them both, and for Jake Taylor too. He was the heart and soul of those teams.
No Pedro Cerrano? Let’s try and not offend Jobu here, people. I may have to do a shot of rum to restore his honor. 🙂
It’s very bad to disrespect Jobu, it’s very bad.
Yo, barkeep, Jobu needs a refill.
“I like Jesus very much, but he no help
me hit curveball.”
“Are you sayin Jesus Christ can’t hit a curveball?”
For the Pirates – Wagner, Clemente, Stargell, and Mazeroski. However, without 1960 game 7, Big Poison could get in ahead of Maz. No pitchers anywhere on the radar.
The Reds, I think I will go with Frank Robinson, Pete Rose, Johnny Bench, and Barry Larkin. I would love to add Joe Morgan. Its tough, but I went with players who came up with team.
Jason, no Tony Perez ahead of Frank Robinson? Just based on years with the Reds and statistics.
Old timers would want a nod to Ed Roush. He was the most popular Reds player for over fifty years. Probably until Johnny Bench.
When Christy Mathewson went to the Reds as manager in 1916, he convinced
John McGraw to part with Ed Roush too. McGraw did it so reluctantly that
he would go on to reacquire Roush ten years later.
Jason, you are late to the party in this blog but it is still attracting hits.
Why do so few people think of Ed Roush on the Reds’ mountain face?
This is a great subject, people will always have their guys.
AS a Detroit Tigers fan, my Tigers Mt. Rushmore is Ty Cobb, Charlie Gehringer, Hank Greenberg, and Al Kaline. They are all in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
My 5th choice, as others have done, would be for my favorite Tigers ball player, and my boyhood hero, Bill Freehan, the 1st catcher to win 5 consecutive Gold Gloves, 1965-69.
Looking at your list, John, reminds me afresh of what a long and storied history your Tig’s have had.
Alan Trammell couldn’t even get his face etched in stone on your mountain.
Hey, Tram was great, but there are also guys like Wahoo Sam Crawford, Harry Heilmann, Mickey Lolich, Hooks Dauss, Goose Goslin, Lou Whittaker, and now Justin Verlander.
The Tigers were always my AL team – the Yankee Killer was a Tiger; I rooted for the home team more often in Tiger Stadium than anywhere else – and I think John’s list is near perfect. But if I had to choose a single 100-foot face for a mountain monument, the Tiger I’d choose wouldn’t be any of them: it would be Hartvig’s avatar. Don’t forget, this is art!
I am both honored and humbled to accept this award on behalf of Don Mossi….
My picks would be Cobb, Greenberg, Kaline and Trammell with profound apologies to so many past and current favorites, especially the late, great Ernie Harwell.
If someone actually does decide to do this, I intend to sell my house and go live in a tent at the site and volunteer my services free of charge just so I can say I had a hand in it.
I’m a Red Sox fan. I think I’d go with Williams, Yastrzemski, Clemens, and Pedro. Young, Speaker, Foxx, and Boggs were some of the other names I tossed around in my head.
Malzone
Petrocelli
Zarilla
Conigliaro
For the Red Sox…Ted Williams and Carl Yastrzemski are givens. I would still put Roger Clemens on there, and Pedro Martinez belongs also.
I’d vote for a Clemens sculpture on Rushmore just so Mike Piazza could climb up there and hit it with a bat.
Gotta put Babe Ruth on the Red Sox. He was a HOF pitcher before he was a HOF hitter. I know it hurts, but he’s, in my opinion, a huge part of the old BoSox.
I agree, and I thought about him. Who do you kick off though?
Oh, my BoSox…I would say Teddy Ballgame, Yaz, Clemens, and the Babe.
Pedro was substantially more accomplished as a Red Sox pitcher than Ruth. The rWAR comparison is 48-18 in favor of Pedro, the ERA+ comparison is 191-125. Those aren’t close.
Who knows what we’d think of the pitcher version of Babe if he’d stayed on the mound, or the Red Sox version if he’d stayed in Boston. As is, I don’t see the case for him over Pedro.
Interesting thought, Lukehart. I have a couple ideas.
First, Ruth had a 125 ERA+ when he left pitching full-time in 1919. Between 1920 and 1935, this ERA+ would likely translate to an ERA in the mid-threes. Thus, I assume Ruth’s lifetime 2.28 mark would rise somewhat, perhaps to somewhere close to 3.00 overall.
There’s also a question of his longevity. Ruth might have wound up with a great career win-loss record since he was 89-46 at 24, but I could just as soon seeing him burning out early. In baseball history, just 12 of the 44 pitchers who had this many career wins by their age 24 season are in the Hall of Fame.
For my Astros, two are a given, Biggio and Bagwell. After that our “illustrious” history makes it a little tougher. I think I’d go Ryan and probably Berkman, but Larry Dierker might edge his way on there as a longtime face of the franchise guy (player, manager, broadcaster).
A couple of other name that spring to mind are the much under appreciated Jose Cruz and the third “Killer Bee”, Lance Berkman
Toy Cannon. (That was my original post but the system rejected it as too short!) (You want wordy I can give you wordy.)
For my Rangers, Nolan Ryan, Pudge Rodriguez, Michael Young, and Tom Grieve for everything he’s done as player, GM, and TV color guy.
How about Juan Gonzalez?
I might as well make a stab at the other Canadian team, before Jnnah Keri shows up. This one may be easier: Expos: Carter, Raines, Rogers, Staub. Lots of talent passed through this team.Walker, Martinez (Pedor and Dennis -Él Presidente, Él Perfecto), Reardon, Wetteland, Wallsch, Pascual Perez (hell, I loved to watch him pitch, dropping that epphus pitch on non-plussed batters), I could go on. Waiting for the older ( and wiser) spos fans to add to where I’ve missed. Funny thing: with strasburg and now Harper, they might make a run for a spot, in time.
For the Expos, I’d have to include Andre Dawson over Rogers, but then I’m no Expo fan, just an observer. That early 80s OF, Raines, Dawson, Valentine, was one of the best.
I’d say Dawson over Staub.
Vlad Guerrero belongs on the Expos rushmore.
As much as I love Le Grand Orange, and as deserving as Vladimir is too, I’d have to go with Tim Wallach, who holds the team records for games, at-bats, hits, doubles, RBI and extra base hits.
It’s a little early to start bronzing Strasburg and Harper.
Phillies – I’d go Mike Schmidt, Steve Carlton, Richie Ashburn and Robin Roberts but there are a few guys on the current roster that could easily play themselves on there (Jimmy is already close… He’ll be the all-time franchise hits leader in a couple years… Howard won’t have to do much to pass Whitey either, Utley has meant so much to this franchise and would probably be the fan representative and Hamels, if he doesn’t leave, has a WS MVP). Harry Kalas as the honorable mention.
I agree with Schmidt and Carlton. And I was leaning toward Roberts as well. With Richie Ashburn, I wonder if he isn’t more loved for his time as an annoucer rather than as a player–if we did an announcer Rushmore, it would be Richie and Harry and, out of respect, nobody else. I also agree that Howard, Rollins and Utley may make it some day.
I haven’t ruled out Big Ed Delahanty, either. But, when push comes to shove, I think I would nominate Dick Allen. The fans treated him badly, but he was a great player.
Ashburn was better than people think… better than his numbers suggest. Look at his defensive numbers – the only man prior to the 162 game expansion to surpass 500 putouts in a season (and he did it four times). His arm was also one of the strongest the game has ever seen. All of that to go along with a +.300 career batting average… had he tried to hang around or had he not missed a year to military service, he might have been close to 3,000 hits. The broadacsting doesn’t hurt, though. He’s an icon here because of the combination but he’s in the Hall of Fame because of his play on the field.
Pete Alexander would certainly be a worthy candidate… him spending only 6 1/2 seasons in Philly (out of 20) weighed on my decision to not include him.
Um, Pete Alexander? I know it would be weird to have 3 pitchers, but I think it has to be Schmidt, Carlton, Alexander and Roberts. BTW, they probably could throw the best all time starting rotation out there. Those three and Halladay and Lee would be nasty.
The Braves starting five of Spahn-Maddux-Niekro-Glavine-Smoltz would make the NL East race fun as always.
Let’s not forget about the Braves’ all-time leader in Pitching WAR (who also happens to be second on their list in Wins) Kid Nichols.
OK, we can put Nichols in the rotation and bump Smoltzie to the bullpen as our closer!
I think Brent’s on the money here, although it’s tough to pass over Delahanty. Ashburn might be my sixth choice. Utley would be the pick among active players.
See my comment above… even if you don’t think Ashburn deserves to make the team because of what he meant on the field (underrated, in my opinion; perhaps the greatest defensive center fielder of all-time), his contributions over his career as a player/broadcaster makes Ashburn almost a shoe-in, in my opinion. There’s a reason they call it “Ashburn Alley” in center field.
Delahanty and Pete are both worthy – I definitely have a soft spot for modern day players. Pete only spending 6 years here weighed on my decision not to go with him. Delahanty doesn’t make the cut for me because he was a dead baller… the game was just different. It was as much about the theatrics as it was about the play on the field. There were “great” players of that era who were great showmen and average players, at best.
You need to make a spot for Grover Cleveland Alexander.
I know his time on the Phillies is short, but it is Koufaxian.
Also, if we except the Babe on the Red Sox Mt. Rushmore, than
we need to consider Old Pete for the Phillies.
So many to choose from on the Big Red Machine. But I have to go Edd Roush, Johnny Bench, Pete Rose and Barry Larkin. Edd for the reason he was the premier outfielder of his time in the NL and led the Reds to championships in 17 and 19. He maintained till his death the Reds beat the White Sox in 1919. He knew when the Sox were playing honest ball and the Reds beat them on enough of those days. Johnny was the greatest catcher between Yogi and I Rod. He changed the game. Pete is top five all time. Barry because of his quiet greatness and how much he means to the fans. Big Klu would be the odd man out for me. Frank Robinson got lazy as a Red. That is why he is not the odd man. Great question.
Padres: Tony Gwynn and Trevor Hoffman are both easy choices. Dave Winfield has a Padres cap in his HOF plaque so he is included. After that, my choices are Ryan Klesko, Phil Nevin, Adrian Gonzalez, Jake Peavy, Randy Jones. But I’ll go instead with broadcaster Jerry Coleman.
Gwynn, Hoffman, Jones and Winfield
Mel Ott… Hit 3/5 of his HR at home (short right field porch at the Polo Grounds). Subtract 100 HR and and drop the SLG% below .500 and I wonder if that changes the Giants Rushmore. I think Marichal deserves to be on there. I’d go Mathewson, Mays, Bonds and Marichal… But I’m not a Giants fan.
In my opinion you cannot make the player take the blame for the ball park. He played where he played, he had no choice. Mel Ott is a NYG Mt. Rushmore for sure, and I think, a reasonable choice foe all Giants teams.
Ott’s HRs were helped by his park, but his BA was hurt — .297 home, .311 away. And he did slug .510 on the road. Over all, his home-park advantage was insignificant.
I’m not trying to rate him relative to other Giants, just making a point.
My counterpoint would be that Ott’s HR splits for home/away are are unbelievable 323/188. That’s 72% more HR at home than away. Surely this is the biggest split gap in the history of baseball. Others(Helton, Rice, Yaz) have bigger overall home/road splits as far as OPS goes, but Ott is the clear leader in HR difference.
bstar, what HR floor would you like to use for this? If we set it at 200 or 250, Ott definitely isn’t the leader in percentage of HRs hit at home. I don’t know for sure who is the leader, but:
– 64.6%, Dante Bichette (177 out of 274)
– 63.2%, Mel Ott (323 out of 511)
– 63.2%, Ron Santo (216 out of 342)
– 63.0%, Chuck Klein (190 out of 300)
– 61.9%, Hank Greenberg (205 out of 331)
– 61.0%, Todd Helton (214 out of 351)
Browns star Ken Williams hit 142 of 196 HRs at home, 72.4%.
Gavvy Cravath had 92 of his 119 HRs at Baker Bowl for 77.3%. He had 8 at the Polo Grounds so at just those two parks he hit 84% of his HRs.
We have ways of adjusting for home-park affects for batters, such as OPS+. Mel Ott is tied for 22nd all-time in OPS at 155, surrounded in the 154-156 range by:
Dick Allen
Willie Mays
Frank Thomas
Hank Aaron
Joe DiMaggio
MEL OTT
Manny Ramirez
Frank Robinson
To me, that indicates he deserves his proper place amongst the all-time greats. If the Polo Grounds were giving him a big boost not only in his HRs but also his overall offense, OPS+ would have adjusted for it. But as John says in #90 above, there’s not that much to adjust.
I think that OPS+ adjusts well for hitters in an extreme park, such as Coors Field. It reduces guys who look like all-time greats to merely great players (Walker, Helton), and guys who look like they’re amongst the best hitters in the league to merely above-average (Castilla, Bichette).
I specifically said “HR difference”. I thought that implied (home HR – road HR), but now I see that I said Ott had the biggest gap after giving a percentage of home vs. road HR. Ott has 145 more HR at home than away; I don’t see anyone else having a “bigger split gap” than that. I also pointed out that many others had bigger OPS splits than Ott overall (I am referring to tOPS+ home/road splits specifically) which really was in agreement with your assessment that others benefited overall much more from their home park. I wasn’t as aware of Santo, Klein, and Hank Greenburg’s home advantage, so I will include them in this look at tOPS+ home/road splits:
tOPS+ is a ratio of your OPS at home/away versus your overall OPS. A number above 100 indicates your home/away numbers were better than your overall OPS, and vice versa. Here’s some of the larger gaps I have found, including some names that JA came up with:
tOPS+ home/away:
-Dante Bichette 124/76
-Chuck Klein 122/77*
-Todd Helton 120/80
-Hank Greenburg 119/80*
-Ken Williams 118/81*
-Ron Santo 118/82
-Jim Rice 115/85
-C Yastrzemski 115/86*
-Ryne Sandberg 114/86
-Ernie Banks 113/87
*some of these splits don’t add up to exactly 200 because of rounding.
I also do not know who the actual leader is in this category but would love for someone to find a bigger split than Bichette’s.
Reply to #252:
Bobby Doerr 125/74
to #253: Cool! Keep ’em coming!
Not sure where to look it up, but: Ellis Burks?
Burks’s numbers are 110/91. It’s easy to find. Go to his home page on BR, click on Splits and choose Career from the drop-down menu. Then scroll down a short way to his Home/Away splits chart.
Burks is a great guess, because he played for both Colorado AND Boston; but I guess that isn’t as powerful as playing for Colorado your whole career (like Todd Helton has).
Thanks guys. I continue to learn. And i’m perfectly content to let Bichette have the “homey” title. Interesting that he’s almost the only one above who is not in the HOF, and the only one i definitely would not want to see carved in stone.
Since these splits we are looking at, Shping, are really just a rate stat, there are probably some others with as high of a split difference out there, but to me the interesting thing is looking at the great players in history to see who may have benefited the most over a long period of time from their home park (or, in Yaz or possibly Jim Rice’s case, “skillfully took advantage of their home park”).
I understand and agree bstar. I was checking out the Duke of Flatbush, and not surprisingly, he has t+OPS scores of around 110 at Ebbets Field, which was famously well-suited to his left-handed bat.
What is surprising are his numbers at the L.A. Coliseum, which was equally infamous for its crazy dimensions. As expected, he struggled mightily his first year there in 1958, with a home score of only 78. But in ’59 and ’60 he rebounded to score 111 and 117 at home.
I don’t think they changed the outfield dimensions much if at all in RF, so it looks like the Duke might have done pretty well making adjustments to his new ballpark after one year.
Cardinals: Musial, Gibson, Ozzie Smith, and the Angel with the 2012 (Dal) Maxvillian stats: Albert Pujols.
I would have to consider Hornsby, Dean, Schoendienst and Slaughter too. Also Simmons.
Gibson and Musial are automatics. Hard to argue with Pujols. Dizzy Dean is also a solid choice, but I went with Lou Brock and Ozzie Smith.
Indians- Feller, Lemon, Speaker and probably Thome. Consideration to Averill, Belle, Lofton, Lajoie and Boudreau.
Do you have something against Nap Lajoie? I know we’re all just following our own hearts here, but … I mean … the team was NAMED after him for a decade!
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/
This is a little esoteric, but it amazes me that Lajoie hit .380 at age 42 in the International League in 1917, his first year out of the majors.
Clearly, this is a fantastic idea for discussion, Graham!
Hey, thanks John.
As a Yankees fan I know Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle are all impossible to leave off- but I feel like jeter is equally as impossible to keep off at this point. A tough cut will need to be made
Jeter is that cut.
I’d put Berra in over their 2nd best CF. (DiMag.)
Berra would look great carved in stone. The Yankees, like the Tigers, need two or three Mt Rushmores. Maybe 4 or 5. Stengel, Dickey, Ford, Rizzuto—put them on another franchise, and they would be the consensus choices. Lazzari, Paul O’Niell, Bernie Williams, Mattingly. Joe Gordon, Ron Guidry, Elston Howard, Dave Winfield. Where do you put Reggie? Joe Sewell? Ruffing, Gomez, Henrich, Munson. Pettitte would be automatic on a lot of teams.
Whereas it’s hard to find four contenders for some teams.
No stat, how many monuments of their own do the Pinstripers have in Yankee Stadium?. That is their own internal Mt. Rushmore, no?
This is the Yankees and they’re not exactly known for their subtlety so I could see them chiseling about 2 dozen heads on a mile and a half stretch of the Grand Canyon…
And no one has even mentioned some of the most successful managers of all-time like Joe McCarthy or Miller Huggins or Casey or people like the Boss or Ed Barrow.
Consider Brock for the Cardinals…
How about the Pirates?? I’d go Wagner, Clemente, Stargell and Traynor.
Personally, I’d go with Paul Warner over Traynor.
Arky Vaughan, the forgotten man.
Definitely Vaughan over the over-rated Pie Traynor:
Wagner, Clemente, P. Waner, Vaughan
I would still take Stargell over Vaughan, and then Waner, Wagner, and Clemente. Vaughan only played 10 seasons with Pittsburgh while Pops played over 20, and, although his actual contributions to the team were probably overrated, he helped give Pittsburgh its only World Series title in the last 40 years in 1979. Stargell is more of an iconic Pirate than Vaughan, and that has to come into consideration here.
bstar:
Stargell is kind of a forgotten man, too, considering his era. Vaughan played what everyone here likes to call a skill position, but Stargell was a team leader, as a recall, and I don’t remember reading anything saying that about Vaughan. Peak career Vaughan, vs. productive longevity Stargell, another difference.
It’s a hard call, but I think I kind of side with you, especially since the Pirates haven’t had a more recent player who comes close in terms of the two criteria, greatness and length of service on the team.
bstar, I thought you’d made a strange error – forgetting 1971 – but it seems time flies as fast as they say . . .
Stargell was a fine player and very longtime Pirate, but in my recollection – a bit different from no-statistician-but – he wasn’t seen as the franchise leader until ’79 (unlike Vaughan, as I understand his career). Perhaps his skill set was a bit one-dimensional, and of course he was in Clemente’s shadow for the first half of his career.
Actually, I’d pick Murtaugh to go with Wagner, Waner, and Clemente. How many teams have a guy who does four stints as manager, staying with the franchise between, and leads a minor-market team to five championships, including two Series wins, out of 12 full seasons? There was a lot of sentiment for Stargell in ’79, but I think the feeling for Murtaugh in Pittsburgh ran exceptionally deep.
Speaking of spectacular but one-dimensional players, I’m surprised no one has mentioned Kiner. (Well maybe someone has, in these 250+ comments that Graham’s post has generated!)
How about fictional baseball players from movies? Roy Hobbs, Crash Davis, Rick Vaughn, and Nuke Laloosh maybe?
Very clever… Hobbs… “there goes the greatest who ever lived” then Crash Davis, Nuke Laloosh, and then the great Billy Chapel. Yes, Costner gets 2 nods.
I might put Jake Taylor and Henry Rowengartner on mine as well. Hobbs and Davis are shoe-ins.
Might I suggest the greatest “What might have been” of them all- Sidd Finch
Sidd Finch was my junior high applied arts teacher. Seriously.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/01/sports/baseball/01finch.html
He was every bit as good a teacher as he was ballplayer. I’m glad that in the end he chose the classroom over the pitching mound.
How about Benny “The Jet” Rodriguez. From the sandlot to the Bigs.
Where is the “like” icon when we need it? 😉
Then John Kinsella (Field of Dreams) is my catcher.
Roy Tucker over them all, movie or no. Anyone else remember the great John R. Tunis?
If we shift to writers who also played, the best by far was Jim Brosnan, not a bad reliever either.
For the New York Mammoths: Bruce Pearson, Piney Woods, Dutch Schnell, and the southpaw himself, Henry “Author” Wiggen.
Since I doubt that anyone else will pick up their banner, allow me to suggest for the pre-Baltimore St. Louis Browns the following: George Sisler, Harlond Clift, Ken Williams and Bobby Wallace.
I considered Pete Gray too, but since these are just head shots…
What, no Baby Doll Jacobson?!?!?!? 🙂
It could just be the picture that Baseball Reference has of him but it appears to me that in one respect at least, Jacobson shares one thing in common with Walt Williams. Which, if they follow the Mt Rushmore model, shouldn’t be a problem since necks don’t seem to be part of the equation.
Yeah, from that pic you’d never peg him for 6′ 3″ !
Ripken, Murray, Palmer, Brooks Robinson for Baltimore.
I strongly considered Frank Robinson, but I think six years as an Oriole, as great as they were, isn’t enough to get him the big granite face.
I totally agree with these four and will add that the Orioles Mt. Rushmore might be the biggest no-brainer of all.
Multi-team stars: Frank Robinson, Reggie Jackson—has to have starred on two teams, played well on a third, and not be linked with just one in the public mind.
I’m going to have to go with Ted Williams, Yaz, Pedro, and Boggs. Man, so many to choose from…
StLoo has gotta be Gibby, Oz, The Man, Albert
StLoo honorable mention Lou, Dizzy, Carp and Rogers H. What a franchise!
For the Angels, I would have to say easily Tim Salmon and Garret Anderson. The other two, I would choose Nolan Ryan and Vladimir Guerrero, but one could make the case for Don Baylor and, when all is said and done, Jered Weaver.
Don’t forget Jim Fregosi. For many years, he was the premier shortstop in the American League. Also, if not for him, California would not have Nolan Ryan.
Can’t believe I forgot about him. Now I’m even thinking Bobby Grier too if you want to add WAR into this discussion.
For the Homestead Grays:
Josh Gibson, Buck Leonard, Smokey Joe Williams, Cum Posey.
For the Pittsburgh Crawfords:
Satchel Paige, Cool Papa Bell, Judy Johnson, Double Duty Radcliffe.
Speaking of impressive groups, good lord, look at those two.
And Oscar Charleston played for BOTH of those teams, although towards the end of his career- put him in his prime with either of those groups and I think we would have a clear winner as to the best foursome of all. Even as they are, there’s a good argument to be made for them.
Well done John!
JA:
Any ideas for Hilldale? I grew up 6 miles away….
Hilldale … Well, I’m not too familiar with the Eastern Colored League, but:
— Biz Mackey, Louis Santop, Judy Johnson (all HOFers) plus Phil Cockrell.
I put Johnson with the Craws above, but he really belongs to Hilldale.
Paul, is there anything in or near Hilldale that commemorates the team?
I pulled this off Wikipedia (unfortunately, I moved from the area in August 2006)
Historical Marker
On October 14, 2006, over 500 individuals gathered for the dedication of a Pennsylvania Historical marker at the site of Hilldale’s ballpark at Chester and Cedar Streets in Yeadon. The ceremony was attended by Philadelphia Phillies hitting coach Milt Thompson, former Phillies player Garry Maddox, and Gene Dias, Phillies director of community relations,. Also attending were the four living members of the Negro League Philadelphia Stars, Bill Cash, Mahlon Duckett, Stanley Glenn, and Harold Gould, along with Ray Mackey, great grandnephew of former Hilldale and Stars player Biz Mackey. Area businessman John Bossong led the effort for the historical marker.[11]
The marker is titled, “The Hilldale Athletic Club (The Darby Daisies)” and the text reads,
This baseball team, whose home was here at Hilldale Park, won the Eastern Colored League championship three times and the 1925 Negro League World Series. Darby fielded Negro League teams from 1910 to 1932. Notable players included baseball hall of fame members Pop Lloyd, Judy Johnson, Martin Dihigo, Joe Williams, Oscar Charleston, Ben Taylor, Biz Mackey, and Louis Santop. Owner Ed Bolden helped form the Eastern Colored League.[12]
Bossong originated the idea for the marker in the summer of 1999, after visiting the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City, Missouri.[13]
Centenary
The year 2010 marked the centenary of the club’s founding. Bossong worked with the Darby Historical Commission to construct a Walk of Fame alongside the site of the Historical Marker. The celebration was organized by the Hilldale 100 committee. The Walk of Fame honors former-Hilldale owners Bolden and Drew, as well as team batboy and contemporary area-resident Ed Bacon.[14]
In less than 3 hours, Graham, you have passed the 100 comment threshold. HHS must be trending on Twitter right now!
This is insane, I’m getting spoiled here. I’ve been blogging about baseball three years, and I have to spend days on a post at my original site to get even half as many comments.
Nolan Ryan, Jim Sundberg, Ruben Sierra and Josh Hamilton.
Tampa Bay Rays:
Carl Crawford, Evan Longoria, James Shields, David Price
Does anyone care to guess this team? Mike Piazza, Albert Belle, John Kruk, Johnny Gomes.
Hey, Luis — That’s a toughie. Piazza & Gomes both played at class-A Bakersfield, but beyond that, I got nuthin’. Some winter league team?
You are on the right track, John. These sluggers played for my hometown Mexicali Eagles of the Mexican Pacific (Winter) League. They all are well remembered here. Good times!
Nobody’s done the Royals yet? George Brett is a gimme. After that it gets tricky. I’d personally go with Frank White, Dick Howser, and Ewing Kauffman. However I really hate leaving out Bret Saberhagen, Amos Otis, or Denny Matthews. If you ask me tomorrow I’d probably have a different answer.
Don’t forget about the Quiz!
He ranks with my avatar & Firpo Marberry as my all-time favorite relievers.
Sorry, but the Quiz has to be there. I would do players only and have Brett, White, Quiz and Saberhagen. Howser and Kaufmann should be acknowldeged somewhere on the grounds of the Royals Mount Rushmore.
In light of his 2 Cy Young Awards, it’s natural that Saberhagen comes to mind first among KCR pitchers.
But FWIW, Kevin Appier tops him in both Wins (115-110) and WAR (47.9-40.8; all figures are with KC only). Ape also edges him in peak WAR seasons (10.0 & 8.7 to 9.8 and 8.0).
Of course, Appier didn’t toss a Game 7 shutout; then again, he never got the chance, and you couldn’t say that Sabes has an impressive postseason record over all.
Career-wise, there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between them.
I agree, Appier and Saberhagen with the Royals aren’t much different, but the only World Series championship in Royals history is flying mostly because of Saberhagen’s 2 wins in the WS. That gives him an edge on the Mount.
I’d go with George Brett, Dennis Leonard, Dan Quisenberry and Frank White.
How about Brett, White, Quisenberry, and Paul Splittorff?
another good Mount, you know you’ve had some talent when 600+ SB, 1000+ R, 130 3B, a battling title and 5 seasons as a league leader in 3B don’t even get you a mention
How about Steve Busby? Obviously, injuries happen….but a fanmtastic talent, nonetheless.
For the Cubs, I would put Cap Anson on there, even though he was a racist and the reason why the game was segregated from the 1880s onward (Google George Stovey if you don’t believe me). I would then put Ernie Banks and Fergie Jenkins on either side, to force him to share the honor with two great African American players. And I would add Ryne Sandberg for good measure.
I’d go with Anson, Banks, and Ryno as the clear first 3. The fourth pick is a lot tougher, as Billy Williams, Fergie Jenkins, and Gabby Hartnett are all fine choices, but I will go with Ron Santo and his five gold gloves as the final choice.
I would also say that Santo’s work as an announcer and a JDRF fundraiser can also be considered. His second act in baseball was as remarkable as his first one.
I was beginning to think nobody here cared about the Cubs 🙁
Forget Cap Anson because he’s a dirtbag. I’d rather see Banks, Santo, Ryno, and Hartnett or Jenkins (flip a coin). I think Santo wins out over some perhaps better players because of what he meant to the organization post-career as well.
The Cubs’ glory years early had Mordecai Brown, who regularly out-dueled Mathewson, and I’d take him over Sandberg any day. Brown didn’t have WGN to publicize him and Harry Carey in his dotage years to rave incoherently about his talents or excuse his faults, but he was a dominant pitcher in a pitcher’s era.
At least no one is touting Billie Williams yet.
Hmm. Billy Williams has more WAR than Ryno, Hartnett, or Fergie as a Cub. He deserves some consideration at the very least.
bstar:
No one wants to hear my take on WAR again. Admittedly, my phrasing was meant to illicit a response. When you think of the perpetual runners-up that were the Cubs in the late Sixties and early Seventies, you think Banks, Santo, Jenkins, Williams, then the cast of support pitcher and players.
Banks deserves a monument for his earlier play, and IF you only have three more busts to carve and IF you, as you should, consider the rest of the long and storied history of the team—such as the gang that won 4 pennants and two World Series in five years competing head to head with Mathewson and the Giants and Wagner and the Pirates—I think you can only take one more from the late Sixties group. If you want to bump Jenkins or Santo I think you’re letting stats get the best of you.
Feel free to argue.
No argument, no stat. I had Williams on my honorable mention list, not up on the mountaintop.
And there still is Phil Cavarretta, Stan Hack and Billy Williams…
Mets – Dwight Gooden, Ed Kranepool, Tom Seaver, Darryl Strawberry
Kranepool is still the Mets all-time leader in games, plate appearances and hits. However if the Mets retain David Wright, he should pass Kranepool and also take his place on Mount Metsmore.
Expos – Gary Carter, Tim Raines, Steve Rogers, Tim Wallach
Tough to leave Dawson off here, and as much as I love Le Grande Orange, I think Wallach is more deserving than Rusty Staub.
Astros – Astros – Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Cesar Cedeno, Nolan Ryan
Ryan gets the nod but Larry Dierker has a higher career WAR, more wins, more complete games and more shutouts than Ryan.
Blue Jays – Carlos Delgado, Tony Fernandez, Tom Henke, Dave Steib
I would be fine replacing Delgado or Fernandez with George Bell or Lloyd Moseby.
Twins – Rod Carew, Harmon Killebrew, Walter Johnson, Bert Blyleven
Seems a shame to leave off Jim Kaat though. He has more career wins as a Twin than Blyleven, he won 16 Gold Glove Awards, and he should be in the Hall of Fame too.
Players appearing on multiple Mount Rushmores:
Randy Johnson – Mariners and Diamondbacks
Nolan Ryan – Angels, Astros and Rangers though statistically he is not in the top 10 in career wins for the Rangers.
You can also make strong arguments for Frank Robinson in Baltimore and Cincinnati, and Rod Carew with the Twins and the Angels.
For the Twins, how could you possibly not mention Kirby Puckett?
For the Yankees, I’d go with Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and Jeter. Some may criticize Jeter over DiMaggio and Berra (amongst others) but I think the Yanks deserve someone from the 40+ years on their Mount Rushmore.
And since they are by far the most accomplished team, if they were to get a second Mount Rushmore, I’d go with DiMaggio, Berra, Mattingly and Rivera.
As a Yankees fan, a baseball and sports fan, and a fan of Mariano Rivera the person, today is fairly high up there with the most bummed out I’ve ever felt because of sports…
Joe Dimaggio is one of the top 25 players in MLB history. It is very difficult to argue to put Jeter ahead of him. DiMaggio and Berra were 3 time MVP’s don’t forget. Not to mention, Jeter struck out more times in his first 4 seasons than Berra did in his entire career.
Really, Mattingly as a top 8 Yankee?
I’ll do the most successful team in the AL after the Yankees (if success is counted by WS titles and pennants) that nobody ever thinks of because they played in 3 cities. And they are hard, but I would go Foxx, Grove, Jackson and Billy Beane (just kidding, how about Fingers or Hunter?, and anyway, if it wasn’t a player for the 4th spot, it would be Connie Mack, not Beane)
And of course, I completely ignored the first 15 years of their existance, which might have been their best 15 years. OK, the 4th spot probably should go to Waddell or Plank or Collins.
Another team I would split up although you’re going to have a tough time coming up with much of a team in Kansas City
Philadelphia- Eddie Collins, Jimmy Foxx, Al Simmons, Lefty Grove with apologies to Frank Baker, MIckey Cochrane and several dead ball era pitchers
Kansas City- geez, I don’t know- Dick Howser, Ed Charles, Bob Cerv and Bert Campaneris? Bud Daley maybe?
Oakland- Reggie Jackson, Catfish Hunter, Rickey Henderson & Sal Bando with apologies to Bert Campaneris (again), Vida Blue, Mark Mulder, Bary Zito, Ken Holtzman, Joe Rudi and a cast of thousands. Mark McGwire and Jason Giambi get bumped because of steroids
The Kansas City A’s would probably trade their Mount Rushmore to the Yankees for a bunch of used up veterans.
This is pretty hilarious.
Boy, the Kansas City A’s are tough- how about Jerry Lumpe, Norm Siebern, Bud Daley, and….ARGH!
The too-oft-forgotten Tim Hudson wishes he were in the “apologies to” group instead of the cast of thousands, seeing as how he was better than Zito or Mulder, IMHO.
And you are right of course and Hudson probably even belongs on the Oakland Mt. Rushmore over Hunter, although I’m not sure that he would win that vote if it were left strictly up to the fans although I could be wrong there too.
I might be a little cross-eyed after reading all these posts, but how about the City of Brotherly (and Occasional Contempt – relatively high homicide rate)?
A’s – Home Run Baker, Eddie Plank, Jimmie Foxx, Lefty Grove
Phillies – Mike Schmidt, Robin Roberts, Richie Ashburn, Grover C. Alexander
Obviously, I’m leaving out Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane, Eddie Collins as well as Dick Allen, Del Ennis, Senator Bunning, and Chuck Klein.
For all these ballclubs, I would prefer to see players who at least spent their debuting years and following with the club. You know, Piazza and Carter and Hernandez are not Mets. And, if a team doesn’t have 4 guys worthy of a stinkin’ memorial, maybe they ought to put busts of management in the dog park adjacent to the stadium.
Can any of you ball fans explain the “Jimmie” in lieu of Jimmy (Foxx)?
You forgot about Steve Carlton. My Mount Phillies-more would be Ashburn, Carlton, Roberts and Schmidt.
Yeah, but it’s tough to leave off Pete Alexander, or Ed Delahanty (if you allow 19th century players; then you’ve also got Billy Hamilton and Sam Thompson). I thnk the only thing everyone agrees on is Schmidt has to be #1.
This goes back to my point in #165 that older teams should be split into (at least) two teams, sometimes three:
pre-WWII (1942):
Pete Alexander
Ed Delahanty
Billy Hamilton (based on peak)
Chuck Klein
1942-1976:
Robin Roberts
Dick Allen
Richie Ashburn
Jim Bunning
1977-present:
Mike Schmidt
Steve Carlton (could’ve gone under earlier list)
Curt Schilling
Chase Utley (based on peak)
How about a Baker Bowl Mt. Rushmore for the Phillies:
Chuck Klein
Lefty O’Doul
Cy Williams
Gavvy Cravath
Is this a list of Phillies that _took the most advantage_ of the peculiar dimensions of the Baker Bowl? Because otherwise, I don’t understand why Delahanty and Hamilton are not on this list (the Baker Bowl was first built in 1887).
I got the player stats from BR PI which starts with 1901. Hamilton was pre-1901 with the Phils so his name did not show up and Delahanty had only one year at Baker Bowl after 1900. It was a sort of half-serious blog.
Oh… As Emily Litella would say on SNL, “Never mind!”.
“And what is all this fuss I hear about the Supreme Court decision on a “deaf” penalty? It’s terrible! Deaf people have enough problems as it is!”
And if were talking early Phillies let’s not forget Roy Thomas, the original walking man.
I am not a Mariners’ fan as Andy can attest, but since I have lived in Seattle for most of the past 20 years, I’ll list the Mariners’ Mount Rushmore:
The Big Unit
Edgar
Junior
King Felix
What about Jay Buhner?
There’s only room for 4 on Rushmore. Who would Bone replace?
You can make an argument that Felix needs to perform at this level for a few more years.
By the way there are 4 persons in the Seattle Mariners Hall of Fame:
Alvin Davis (1997)
Dave Niehaus (2000)
Jay Buhner (2004)
Edgar Martinez (2007)
I am certain there are more than a few Mariners’ fans who would vote for Dave Niehaus.
Great discussion topic here Graham; I’m a little late to this subject but I’d like to make two main points:
1) The “original 16” franchises at the start of the modern era have {as a number of people have pointed out: #44, #128, #141} waaaaayy too much history to cover with four names. It would make more sense conceptually to divide them up into two separate groups, say pre-expansion (till 1960) and post-expansion (1961-present). This make a good separate post.
Several venerable franchises (Cardinals, Giants, Dodgers, Tigers, Red Sox) could use three separate groups; the Yankees might need _four_ separate groups.
2) Since I think of “Mt. Rushmore” as an honor for all of the people most important to a particular franchise, I don’t think it should be restricted to players, or even have players evaluated strictly statistically.
For instance, Maz may not be one of the top four players in Pirates history, but his G7 WS HR in ’60 carries a lot of weight. Vin Scully probably means as much to the Dodgers as anyone else, likewise for managers such as Connie Mack to the A’s or Earl Weaver to the Orioles.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Can’t leave without a Red Sox “Mt. Rushmore”(listed chronologically):
ONE GROUP:
-Teddy Ballgame
-Yaz
-Roger Clemens
-Pedro Martinez
TWO GROUPS:
(1901-1960)
-Cy Young
-Tris Speaker
-Double X
-Ted Williams
(1961-present)
-Yaz
-Wade Boggs
-Roger Clemens
-Pedro Martinez
THREE GROUPS:
(1901-1941)
-Cy Young
-Spoke
-Joe Cronin
-Jimmie Foxx
(1942-1976)
-Bobby Doerr
-Teddy Ballgame
-Johnny Pesky (partly for being the franchise icon)
-Yaz
(1977-present)
-Dwight Evans
-Wade Boggs
-Roger Clemens
-Pedro Martinez
Tough to leave out: Jimmy Collins, Smokey Joe Wood, Babe Ruth, Lefty Grove, Dom Dimaggio, Mel Parnell, Jackie Jensen, Rico Petrocelli, George Scott, Luis Tiant, Carlton Fisk, Jim Rice, Mo Vaughn, Nomah!, Tek, Manny B Manny, and your favorite Red Sox player I didn’t mention…
Has anyone mentioned the White Sox yet? I’ll go with:
Ed Walsh
Eddie Collins
Luke Appling
Frank Thomas
Dan:
How about:
1) Biggie Frank
2) Ted Lyons
3) Luke Appling
3) Nelson Fox
Ted Lyons over Ed Walsh, Nellie Fox over Eddie Collins? I don’t know…
ESPN did this a while back for each US state, but it was severely flawed. By team, however, is a fantastic idea.
Although I see Lawrence Azrin’s comment, for my beloved Red Sox: Cy Young, Ted Williams, Carl Yastrzemski, and Pedro Martinez, with an honorable mention for Lefty Grove and Roger Clemens. Cy is quite literally the “George Washington” of Red Sox pitchers, Lawrence, you can’t leave him out.
For the (Devil) Rays, the team of my youth: Scott Kazmir, James Shields, Ben Zobrist, and Evan Longoria
Since this whole thing started with the Yankees, I’ll give my 2 cents on them too. I go with Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, and Ron Guidry.
I could go on all day, but I’ll stop here for now.
“ESPN did this a while back for each US state, but it was severely flawed”
No kidding. My home state of North Dakota would be Darin Erstad, Travis Hafner, Rick Helling and either Tim Johnson, Ken Hunt or Lynn Nelson.
Maybe we could steal Roger Maris from Minnesota because he always considered Fargo his home town.
It wasn’t just limited to baseball, but Maris was in there for ND – you can find the full list here:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/sportscenter/news/story?id=3879785
The biggest flaw was that it didn’t set a definition for what quality assigned a person to a state – Birthplace? College? High School? Current primary residence? As a result, 15 people were on multiple Rushmores, including Hank Aaron and Barry Sanders which 3 Rushmores each. Not to mention that it allowed some people to be included that many sports fans outside of their state may have never heard of, while some household-name greats from larger states get omitted, like Wayne Gretzky, Cy Young, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Emmitt Smith, Sandy Koufax, and more.
“Cy is quite literally the “George Washington” of Red Sox pitchers, Lawrence, you can’t leave him out.”
OK, {Insert Name Here}-
Ted Williams and Yaz are obviously a clear #1 and #2 overall. Then I had (chronologically) Young, Clemens, and Pedro. All three are fantastic, and compete for the title of “best Red Sox pitcher ever”, but spent a substantial part of their careers with other teams.
Pedro has a better peak than either, but not the (Red Sox) career of either. So even though Clemens and Young are roughly comparable (both have the record of 192 wins for the RS), I chose the modern guy.
It could have been any two of those three, Young was added when I went to two groups.
Counterpoint: are you _really_ going with Ron Guidry over Dickey, Dimaggio(!), Berra(!), Ford, Jeter (for starters)? Then again, it is personal favorites.
I find it interesting that of the handful of Red Sox Rushmores I’ve seen listed, all agree on Williams, Yaz, and Pedro, with Clemens vs. Young providing just about the only other serious discussion, while most other teams are much less clear.
I’m typing as I’m thinking, so please bear with me– how about the 1961-71 Senators? Frank Howard, Dick Bosman, Ed Brinkman, and- HELP! Jim French??
Ken McMullen? Or they had a couple of good relief pitchers in Darold Knowles and Ron Kline. Or maybe just put the managers up there — Ted Williams and Gil Hodges — with Hondo and forget the rest of the players.
How about Ron Hansen for his unnassisted triple play in 1968??
Isn’t this one of the rarest plays in baseball history?
Since this whole idea is based on a political monument and we are talking about the team from Washington how about John Kennedy? John Edward Kennedy that is, Washington 3rd baseman for 3 years in the early 60’s.
I agree with Lawrence and others who have suggested that some of the older
franchises be divided into time frames.
As a Yankee fan, I would submit WWII as a threshold.
This allows me to put Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio and Phil Rizzuto together.
Post WWII would be Mantle, Berra, Jeter and Rivera.(aplogies to Thurm and Gid)
Tigers-Pre WWII, Cobb, Gheringer, Heilmann and Greenberg. (aplogies to Wahoo).
Post WWII, Kaline, Jack Morris, Alan Trammel, Lou Whitaker
Red Sox-Pre WWII, Cy, Speaker, Teddy Ballgame and Doerr.
Post WWII, Clemens, Yaz, Boggs and Pedro.
Giants-Pre WWII, Christy Mathewson, Bill Terry, Mel Ott and Carl Hubbell.
Post WWII, Willie’s, Juan Marichal and Bonds.
Dodgers-Pre WWII, Babe Herman, Dazzy Vance, Wilbert Robinson and Pee Wee.
Post WWII, Sandy Koufax, Duke Snider, Jackie Robinson and Roy Campanella.
The problem with dividing older franchises at WWII (or any point, really) is that players who played before AND after that point, like Ted Williams for Boston, Pee Wee Reese for the Dodgers, etc. For example, I see you put Ted in pre-WWII, which makes sense since that when his best years were, but also doesn’t make sense because he played most of his career after WWII…
It was done in my mind strictly based on debut. Just to keep
it straight.
It’s like when folks would debate the greatest pitcher who played entirely after WWII. That leaves out Warren Spahn
which is foolish. Not that he was the greatest, but he
should be in the discussion.
…or, “who is the best one-franchise catcher”? Yogi Berra gets eliminated because his last four games were with the Mets.
Mike Piazza and Pudge Rodriguez, now there are catchers who moved around. But Yogi? – c’mon, he’s a Yankee.
OTOH, if the argument has a standard, define it better, so technicalities don’t eliminate deserving players.
WWII is a good dividing line for splitting up the players in the “original 16” franchises, because many players missed two/three years (or more: Feller, Greenberg) due to WWII. Several players, such as Dimaggio and Mize, had their careers almost equally split betwween the two eras, but there are problems with any dividing line.
Whatever year you choose as a dividing point, some players are not going to clearly be on one side or the other of that particular line.
Ted Williams and Pee Wee Reese both clearly belong in the “after WWII” group, I think Jason Z. did that mainly to spread the players out and include all of the Red Sox guys he wanted to get on his list.
I agree with Lawrence that 1945 would be a good dividing line for the reasons he mentioned and because black players only entered the picture at that point in time as well.
I also have a quibble with Jayson Z’s failure to include Zach Wheat with the pre-WWII Dodgers. As much as it would pain me to have to exclude Babe Herman I’m afraid that either he or Uncle Robbie (if management is excluded) would have to go.
Maybe Babe can get together with my avatar (Don Mossi) and Willie McGee and try to round up a 4th for their own particular shrine. Anyone have any suggestions as to who that might be?
Hattvig,
Thanks, I hadn’t considered the pre/post-integration angle to the theoretical dividing line.
Now that I do, I’d push that boundary back to at least 1957, or even the early 60’s. MLB was not fully integrated for a long long long time after April 15th, 1947.
DODGERS: I agree with you that Zach Wheat is much more deserving than Babe Herman; Wheat was a (fully deserving) HOFer and played all but his last year with the Dodgers. Besides, “Zach Wheat” is such a cool name, just say it out loud.
Babe Herman though is a reasonable choice in that he is more emblematic of the Daffy Dogers era, epitomized by the whole “The Dodgers have three men on third base! Yeah, which base? biz.
Lawrence- You’re probably right about moving the dividing date back (maybe 1961 to coincide with expansion?) since especially the American League did not really fully integrate until the 1960’s. Other than Satchel Paige the only black pitcher that I can name that enjoyed any degree of success in the American League prior to expansion was Connie Johnson of the White Sox & Orioles. I’m going strictly from memory here so someone please help me out if there were any others. The National League was at least generally somewhat integrated by the mid-50’s although the Cardinals didn’t really come around until 1958 or later.
Reply to #234.T here was a guy named Bob Trice who pitched for the A’s for a few seasons in the mid-50s. His overall record was 9-9.
Further reply to #234. There were also Mudcat Grant and Dave Hoskins. Don Newcombe and Joe Black appeared briefly in the AL.
I should have remember Mudcat and I had heard of Trice before as well. Still, it’s pretty obvious that African-Americans weren’t exactly well represented on American League pitching staffs in the 1950’s.
Props to this writer…Will Clark is my absolute favorite ballplayer as well. He won’t go on the monument but what a Giant. I actually wasn’t a baseball player as a kid, but went to his camp w/ Vida Blue and I still remember it today. Cheers.
since the writer mentioned it, I’m pretty sure this idea of a Mt. Rushmore was postulated by another ESPN writer Bill Simmons ( or one of his readers ). Not 100% sure though.
By my count, no one has yet spoken for three of the last four expansion teams, including the two that have won championships.
Hmm, Diamondbacks, Rays, Marlins, and Rockies.
I’ll take a crack at Colorado: Larry Walker, Todd Helton, Troy Tulowitzki, Vinny Castilla
There’d also have to be an adjoining Tomb of the Unknown Pitcher for all the men whose ERAs have gone mile high.
I’m a little late to the game, but I’m going to give my single franchise vote for the A’s (all cities). I’m giving two spots to Philadelphia and two to Oakland, as they’ve roughly split the success of the team. Here they are:
Rickey Henderson, Reggie Jackson, Jimmie Foxx, Connie Mack.
I think the point of a Mt. Rushmore is that it should be extremely limited, so I’m not bothered by the idea that it’s hard to limit to four. After all, there are only 4 presidents on Mt. Rushmore after more than 2 centuries of presidents.
Of the four I’ve chosen, I think Jackson is the weakest, but I did feel that it was fair to split between Oakland and Philadelphia and the problem is that no great Oakland players have spent their entire careers in Oakland. However, both Rickey and Reggie had their best seasons in Oakland and both are from Oakland, giving them extra points for their sculpting.