Circle of Greats 2025 Redemption Round

This Circle of Greats (COG) vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle. Instead, this round of voting will select three or more players who will be restored to the secondary ballot after having been previously dropped from eligibility.

In this vote you may include on your ballot any major league baseball player who:
   –   was born before 1981; and
   –   played a majority of his games, in a career of 10 or more seasons, since 1901 or compiled 20 WAR (as measured by Baseball-Reference) since 1901 (this condition does not apply to players born before 1920 who were barred from major league baseball on account of race); and
   –   has not been elected to the Circle of Greatsand
   –   was not among the main or secondary ballot holdovers for the last completed round of COG balloting (COG 1980 Balloting Part 3); and
   – did not receive a Main ballot vote in the last completed round of COG balloting.

For this round of voting, you may vote for up to five (5) five players to cast a qualifying ballot.  The players with the 3 highest vote totals, including ties, will be restored to the secondary ballot for the next round of COG voting. To assist you with your selections, career stats for the most eligible candidates are provided here (though you may vote for any qualifying player).

The deadline to cast your ballots in this redemption round is Sunday night, March 23rd at 11:59PM EDT. You can change your votes until 11:59PM EDT on Friday night, March 21st.  You can keep track of the vote tally in this redemption round here: COG 2025 Redemption Round Vote Tally.

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Bob Eno
Bob Eno
3 months ago

This is not my ballot, but this discussion actually began informally in this year’s Round 2, and I thought I’d make sure the players mentioned then are part of the discussion now. Voomo mentioned five players: Joe Medwick, Ralph Kiner, Dizzy Dean, Goose Gossage, and Early Wynn — he then added David Cone during Round 3 discussion. nsb mentioned Bill Terry and Rick Reuschel. All these players seem interesting to me for various reasons — Reuschel’s candidacy troubled us for a very long time before he slipped off the ballots, and I think he’s a good example of someone who… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
3 months ago

Here are some categories of possible candidatesBob Eno hasn’t mentioned, none of whom I am suggesting:

Fairly good hit/better fielding position players: Graig Nettles, Buddy Bell, Willie Davis, Keith Hernandez

Under the radar sluggers: Sal Bando, Larry Doby, Jim Wynn

Erratic Career Stars: Sherry Magee, John Olerud, Dwight Evans (The Accumulator)

Billy Herman, a category of itself

Tom Kaat, Jimmy John (Not to be confused with the sandwich chain): interchangeable pitching accumulators.

Jim Bunning (See B. Herman above)

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
3 months ago

Speaking of the sandwich chain, I just took a look at its B-R page and noticed this for the 1975 season: “Did not play – Eponymous Surgical Procedure”. I believe this is the only spot in all B-R stat records that is meant to elicit a smile.

Voomo
Voomo
3 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

There are a few intended chuckles in the transaction list on this page:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/ferrewi01.shtml

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
3 months ago
Reply to  Voomo

Nicely spotted, Voomo. According to the Bullpen article on Ferrell’s day, though, the transactions are, in fact, simply accurate reports. Ferrell was, indeed, traded for a comic actor to be named later, a washing machine, a hot dog, and so forth.

Doug
Doug
3 months ago
Reply to  Voomo

I’m curious about the batter he retired in his only pitching appearance.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
3 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Ferrell’s feat was mighty. He retired Rico Noel, a lifetime .500 hitter so fast on the base paths that his stolen base total was more than twice the number of his plate appearances!

Doug
Doug
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Thanks. Looks like Noel belonged on a 1970s A’s team. Was used as a PR 12 times and scored 5 runs. He also had 5 stolen bases, though only one of those ended up producing a run. Since he was caught stealing twice, he may have been better off not running at all.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Looks like the Yanks agreed with you, Doug. (By my count, Noel played for 23 pro teams in organized baseball. Too bad the Ferrell incident seems to be the sole recorded highlight.)

no statistician but
no statistician but
3 months ago
Reply to  Doug

What can I say? At my age you forget things. I presumed he was like Nettles, a best man for a long time, but never married.

Doug
Doug
3 months ago

If you’re looking for an “accumulator”, Darrell Evans is available, only 8.5 WAR short of Dwight and owner of some fun facts, including:
– first 400+ HR man to hit all of them aged 24 or older
– oldest player (38) to post a league-leading 40+ HR season

Evans compiled 16.2 WAR (almost 25% of his career total) in two monster 7+ WAR seasons (1973-74), but needed the following 7 seasons (1975-81) to “accumulate” that same total again.

Last edited 3 months ago by Doug
no statistician but
no statistician but
3 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Darrell E was a favorite of Bill James at one time, but Olerud did as much in 1700 fewer PAs, given that his home run power was only average for the era. Sherry Magee, along with Fred Clarke, whom I forgot in my previous listing, are the only dead ball era position players left that might qualify for COG status, unless my memory has failed me there, too. Magee outdoes Darrell E and Olerud in a similar career arc vis-a-vis WAR and OPS+, but labored in obscurity for poor teams. Clarke was overshadowed by Honus Wagner on those powerful early… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
3 months ago

NSB, I am not 130 years old and I can’t swear to it but, I believe Magee may have been recognized for his ability since he was so talented and not to be ignored. On the other hand, yes, the whole trumpets and marching band thing for the guys on winning teams probably overshadowed Magee’s work. As a child I would read books about baseball history through the years and they were always/exclusively detailing the work of Mathewson, Tinker-Evers-Chance, Fred Merkle’s bonehead play, Wagner, Connie Mack’s A’s, etc.. during that era (1900-1920) No mention of Sherry. Apparently, Magee was ‘difficult’….… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
3 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Paul, We probably read the same books. But I was always puzzled by one exception to your rule: Rabbit Maranville (mentioned on Voomo’s first list below). Although Rabbit played on two pennant winners, one famous (the Miracle Braves), his teams’ normal location was in the second division, and his batting stats were extremely weak (lifetime 82 OPS+; his value lay entirely in his skill at shortstop). Yet he was routinely featured as one the “greats” alongside Ruth and Cobb, and was elected to the Hall in 1954, as the books of our youth were circulating. Maranville came in a close… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

As far as Maranville being the guy who entertained the sportswriters, perhaps that might explain Pete Rose over Joe Morgan (and Stargell and Bonds) for the NL MVP in 1973?

In similar fashion to Magee, Dick Allen led the LA Dodgers in WAR (and many other categories) as they finished a game behind SF. He didn’t get a single MVP vote. He hit .295 23 HR 90 RBI… I imagine the voters were expecting more?

Voomo
Voomo
3 months ago

Offensive leaders not yet in the COG The Greybeards (most PA): 12046 Palmiero 12013 Visquel 11260 Marinville 11240 Brock 11231 Aparicio 11229 Staub 10917 Damon 10861 Tony Perez 10772 Max Carey 10737 Darrell Evans Chicks Dig the Longball: 609 Sosa 583 Big Mac 569 Palmiero 493 McGriff 475 Stargell 473 Delgado 464 Nelson Cruz 462 Canseco 440 Giambi 414 Darrell Evans The Dirty Uniforms (SB): 938 Brock 738 Max Carey 668 Willie Wilson 649 Campenaris 558 Brett Butler 557 Davey Lopes 550 Cesar Cedeno 509 Fred Clarke 506 Aparicio 495 Keeler 495 Milan 470 Rollins 465 Scheckard 461 Bobby Bonds… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Voomo

Hi Voomo, I want to comment on the Dirty Uniform guys. Expectations about stolen base performance have changed a lot since I was young, and even more since the Deadball Era. There is a general consensus now that to be adding value a player’s SB success rate should be in the 67-75% range or higher. Although the balance of value is different depending on the out/base situation, anything lower than that range overall is likely subtracting rather than adding value. This was not the way SBs were understood in the past, where major attention was on the value of success,… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

I’m not a fan of Aparicio, but it has irked me a little to have seen from time to time praised heaped on Maury Wills for having rejuvenated the art of the SB, when Little Luis was there ahead of him by at least a couple of years. COG material? The guy was a lead-off hitter who had a .311 OBP. The lowest current OBP in the COG is that of Brooks Robinson at .322, another glove man, true, but for many years an offensive threat whose lifetime OPS+ was 105, vs Luis’ 83.

I can’t buy it.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

Well, I’ll grant you all that, nsb. But let me offer some push-back. I don’t want to mount a campaign for Aparicio, but I think he’s closer to the threshold than you do, and worth some consideration. First, I think Aparicio’s leadoff status shouldn’t be relevant: that placement is the manager’s responsibility, not the player’s. Second, his OBP needs to be considered in connection with his stolen base record. I don’t want to suggest any deep comparison with Brooks R, who is far above the CoG threshold. But Aparicio added a lot of bases by his speed, and while Brooks… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Just an addendum: On the SB list, Vince Coleman actually should appear near the top: he had 752 SB with a rate of 81%. He qualifies for the CoG because his career extended over ten seasons, but he’s not a viable candidate because he compiled only 12.9 WAR in his tumultuous career.

no statistician but
no statistician but
2 months ago
Reply to  Voomo

Voomo: Your lists have the virtue of bringing to mind, I think, many if not all of the issues that have informed COG arguments in the past, both pro and con, but mostly con—perhaps obviously, since these players, other than the Negro League stars, have all been considered in their time and found wanting. The sluggers list, for instance, is top-heavy with suspects from the steroid era, guys who, one either suspects or knows, couldn’t have put up nearly such gaudy numbers without chemical assistance, and who don’t have the statistical credibility of a Bonds or a Clemens as to… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

nsb, With regard to your last question, which concerns Negro League players, I’m not clear myself. I notice that in the main post Doug created for this round he adds that the 10-year/20-WAR criterion that governs eligibility, “does not apply to players born before 1920 who were barred from major league baseball on account of race.” My previous understanding was that it did apply, but that we made an exception to the rule for Satchel Paige. The reason for the exception was that although Paige fell short of the 20-WAR threshold, the fact that he compiled about 10 WAR (124 OPS+) in… Read more »

Doug
Doug
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Re: eligibility for Negro league players, rather than have a case-by-case decision on waiving eligibility rules, I thought I would just establish a rule. Arguably, I could have been more generous by a few years on the birth date cutoff, but my reasoning is that opportunities available to Negro league players born before 1920 would entail major league service mostly or completely age 30+, thus severely limiting a player’s ability to reach either the 10 year or 20 WAR major league threshold. FWIW, B-R has come up with WAR numbers for Negro league season, and counts them the same as… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug, I don’t have any argument with the criteria you adopted. My point is entirely about our ability to make informed decisions. I’m really speaking only about myself. As you point out, WAR is relative to the league. We’ve generally treated the AL and NL as equivalent (although they used to be far less mutually porous) and adopted a framework that equalizes the talent range in all seasons and eras, so that we treat relative quality as absolute quality. Otherwise, given a range of factors, the CoG would need to be overwhelmingly composed of players from recent eras, when performance… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
2 months ago

Powerball/March 15, 2025

12 28 33 36 54 05

That’s five pennants 1912, 1933, 1936, 1954, and a 1905 powerball for the NY Giants. Alas, NY failed in 1928 by a mere two games to the St Louis Cardinals.

Sorry, a little too much OCD here…..

Doug
Doug
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

The ’28 Giants were just a half-game behind on Aug 23rd, but then lost eight in row to fall to 6½ back on Aug 31. They then won 24 of 28 to stand one game back with the Cubs coming to town on the final weekend of the season. 35,000 showed up to see the Giants split a twin-bill to open the series, then only 15,000 the next day as the visitors bested Giants ace Larry Benton to force the G-Men to the brink of elimination, and finally only 2,000 witnessed the Giant denouement as the Cubs took the measure… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug,
Thank you for the play-by-play and explanation of how it all played out. I believe some iteration of the late 1920’s NY Giants had a large number of eventual Hall of Famers…. Roush, Ott, Hubbell, Terry, Hornsby, Lindstrom etc…

I’m probably way off on those guys; just top of my “aging” head

Doug
Doug
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

The ’23 to ’29 Giants each had 7 HOFers, except for the 1928 team which had only 6. The ’28 Giants lost Grimes and Hornsby from the year before, and added a rookie named Hubbell.

Paul E
Paul E
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug,
Thanks again. If I had to debate the ‘superior set” of HoF’ers, I’d probably go with 1927?

I was not aware of all those guys in the earlier years that were in the Hall…. some friends of Frankie Frisch in all the groups, for sure.

no statistician but
no statistician but
2 months ago

On the basis of the dialogue above between Bob and Doug, I’ve decided to cast a vote for Josh Gibson as a crying exception to the normal voting constraints for COG consideration. While Gibson doesn’t have the highest lifetime WAR rating among Negro League greats, that is owing only to the fact that his playing days came when the seasons were shorter than those of Turkey Stearns, et al. Although the legend of his home run hitting prowess has always seemed to me to belong more in the realm of Paul Bunyan and John Henry and not to be trusted… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

nsb, I’d be very surprised if there were not a general sense here that Gibson was CoG caliber — there’s a guy who has not the slightest need of a catcher’s bonus, but has one nevertheless. I don’t mean to oppose Gibson’s redemption/ultimate election. I do want to advocate for laying groundwork before we cross a line to new ground I think we’re unprepared to find our way on. The case for Paige, which I supported, was that he was a unicorn: there was no one else in his class (significant and dispositive evidence of excellence in an MLB setting,… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Just a brief counter argument: If we assume that, for example, the NNL of Gibson’s years was operating on average at a level of competence 80% of that shown by the AL and NL, Gibson’s WAR/ year drops from 10.5 to 8.4. Here are some not quite random figures for comparison: Ruth 10.5 Mays 8.4 Cobb 8.1 Aaron 7.0 Wagner 7.6 T. Williams 8.6 Gehrig 8.5 Mantle 7.4 Trout 9.2 but that’s partially an illusion. Catchers: Bench 5.6 Fisk 4.4 Cochrane 5.4 Carter 4.9 Dickey 5,1 Simmons 3.3 I’m not interested in assessing the Negro Leagues, and I doubt you… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

nsb, I don’t think the math can work that way. It’s not in question that Gibson is the most outstanding position player reflected in Negro League stats. The the question is replacement level, which is what WAR is relative to. Given the demographics of the US, the white leagues had roughly nine times the overall talent pool available to Black leagues. By the time of Gibson’s career the white leagues had a well organized minor league system to filter and train-up natural talent to high performance standards. I don’t know the degree to which the Black leagues were able to… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Beyond the whole Negro League’s quality of play/depth question, Bill James made what appears to be the oversimplification that, ” if Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson, and Bob Gibson are amongst the all-time greats, then their Negro League predecessors Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson, Lloyd, Buck Leonard and Paige must be among the greatest ever” regardless of the level of competition. I have no idea how one quantifies that assessment to corroborate his conclusion. James and his ilk often try to predict rookie performance based on things like PCL and International League/American Association performance versus how that translates to performance in MLB.… Read more »

Doug
Doug
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

I suspect James’s point is simply that the very best players of a generation will be really good, regardless of the generation. So, one should expect the best Negro League stars to be on a level comparable to the best African-American players who followed them (or the best players, period, who followed them). Granted, James listed some all-time greats in his later group, so perhaps not quite at that level. But, even if they’re only 80% as good as a Mays or an Aaron, that’s certainly more than good enough for HOF caliber, and probably on a level superior to… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

Using Doug’s list of Redemption Stats, I came up with the following lists of WAR rate figures for position players and pitchers (I hope I didn’t screw up my Excel table!). For position players, I cut off at 56.6 total WAR and 3.4 WAR/500PA, and for pitchers at 54.9 pWAR and 3.0 pWAR/162IP (the reasons for the cutoff points are below). Players are listed by rate (Doug’s list is sorted by WAR, and can be resorted many ways–thanks!–but doesn’t include WAR rates, which I like to use). Position players ………………WAR/500PA……….Tot.WAR Doby……………..4.1………………..56.8 Terry……………..4.0………………..56.6 Hartnett…………3.8………………..55.5 Edmonds……….3.8………………..60.4 Bando…………..3.7…………………61.5 Bo. Bonds……..3.6…………………57.9 Hernandez……..3.5………………..60.3 Magee…………..3.5………………..59.4 Clarke……………3.4………………..68.0… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Hartnett is already a COG member. Glad to find that I’m not the only one who’s made that kind of mistake in this discussion. The COG list is long, and the eyes see only what they want to see some times.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

Any gaffe you can make I can make better.

mosc
mosc
25 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Seeing Saberhagen, Cone, and Appier next to each other like that makes me smile. I still think we haven’t correctly weighted the EXTENSIVE post season career of Pettitte and I feel like I didn’t do enough to help nettles and doby get through. Cone should be in the hall already, including his announcer value (he doesn’t need much to push him over the top). I was mad they put torre in as a manager and not for both. Keep at it all!

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

Here’s an argument for Bret Saberhagen, who surprised me by leading all potential pitching candidates in WAR rate by about 10%. I compared Saberhagen to Dizzy Dean, whose very, very short career is, I presume, the reason why he isn’t in the CoG. His flame certainly burned bright enough for seven seasons to get him into the Hall despite the low total of 150 wins (Koufax is a reasonable parallel). If we compare Saberhagen 1985-1991 with Dean 1932-1938 the resemblance (allowing for structural changes in the role of pitchers) is very close. ………WAR….per162……..W-L……….CG………ShO……..ERA+…….SO/BB BS….39.2……..6.3…..100-67..599….62………..13………..130………..3.46 DD….41.9…….5.8……140-76..648…143……….24………..134………..2.70 Dean is superior in workload… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

Here’s an argument for Larry Doby, who leads all unredeemed position players in WAR rate (by PA). When Doby first entered the CoG conversation in 2014 his WAR total was 47.2, because B-R did not include Negro League figures (I believe that revisions to WAR per se also boosted his total, which now stands at 49.1 for his MLB play). One comment noted that Doby was 23 when he started in the Majors, and so the impact of segregation on his career was not as profound as some others. There were no figures concerning his Negro League performance. He quickly… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

I don’t actually understand how B-R calculates WAR/162G for either batters or pitchers. In looking at Doug’s off-ballot leaders I substituted WAR/500PA for hitters (a lazy approach; it should have been 502, meaning a qualifying season) and pWAR/162IP. But doing some calculations that turns out to be quite different for the B-R figures. So here’s a list that compares our current Secondary Ballot candidates to some of the leading off-ballot candidates (bolded) vying for redemption (as we all are in this vale of tears!), using the 500PA and 162IP standards. I’ve listed those with identical one-decimal figures according to their… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Couldn’t resist extending this to the Primary Ballot candidates. Position Players ………………..WPA/500PA………Total bWAR Allen………………..4.0……………………58.7 Jones………………3.6…………………….62.7 Randolph………….3.5……………………65.9 Ashburn……………3.3……………………64.2 Guerrero…………..3.3……………………59.5 Helton………………3.3……………………61.8 Sheffield…………..2.8……………………60.8 Ortiz………………..2.7……………………55.3 Simmons…………..2.6…………………..50.4 Pitchers ………………pWAR/162IP………..Total pWAR Papelbon………….5.2……………………23.3 Santana……………4.1……………………51.7 Coveleski………….3.3……………………62.0 Tiant………………..3.1……………………66.1 Sabathia…………..2.8……………………62.3 Lyons……………….2.7…………………..70.6 I have to conclude that either I’m making systematic errors, or B-R’s rate stats (/162G) are based on some different form of calculation. On rate stats, the relative order of the players should be identical regardless of the absolute parameters. On the pitchers in particular this does not hold. (I can understand it for Papelbon, since relief pitcher scales should probably be different, but B-R has Santana and Coveleski… Read more »

Voomo
Voomo
2 months ago

Vote:

 Joe Medwick
Ralph Kiner
Dizzy Dean
Goose Gossage
David Cone

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Voomo

Interestingly I had only one of your five on the lists I calculated, Voomo. Turns out that Dean is somehow missing from Doug’s table (I wondered whether we’d also voted him into the Circle without my recalling) and Kiner fell below the cutoff I was using. I’d been studying both their records and should have had them in mind. Here are the two WAR figures for your guys: Kiner………3.8/500PA…..48.0 bWAR Medwick….3.3/500PA…..54.5 bWAR Dean………3.6/500PA…..43.9 pWAR Gossage….3.7/500PA….41.6 pWAR Kiner’s rate is a little above Boyer’s and helps his case, in my view. Dean’s rate is, of course, like Saberhagen’s. I think we… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Voomo

Thinking more about Dean and his resemblance to Saberhagen, I added Koufax to see how the three matched up. All had impressive seven-year peaks: ……………….pWAR….per162IP……..W-L……….CG………ShO……..ERA+…….SO/BB Saberhagen….39.2……..4.2…..100-67..599……..62………..13………..130………..3.46 Dean………..….41.9…….3.8……140-76..648…….143……….24………..134………..2.70 Koufax………….47.6……..4.3……137-60..695…….122………..37…………147…………3.73 These are really high per162IP peaks. For comparison, Walter Johnson’s best seven-year stretch has a rate of 5.5 and Christy Mathewson’s was 4.5. (Of course, their peaks were part of a mountain range, not surrounded by plains.) Outside the peak years, Saberhagen exceeds both Dean and Koufax, with 19.7 pWAR, vs. Dean’s 2.0 and Koufax’s 5.2. (Koufax actually had a six-year peak with 46.4 pWAR and a 4.6 rate and only 6.7… Read more »

Doug
Doug
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Since we’re discussing Dean and short career pitchers, we should probably also consider one Noodles Hahn. Hahn’s ranks since 1893 include:
-2nd (to Walter Johnson) for WAR thru age 25
-3rd (behind Joe McGinnity and Grover Cleveland) for WAR thru first six seasons of a career

I’ve added Hahn to your table.
……………….pWAR….per162IP……..W-L……….CG………ShO……..ERA+…….SO/BB
Saberhagen….39.2……..4.2…..100-67..599……..62………..13………..130………..3.46
Dean……..….….41.9…….3.8……140-76..648…….143……….24………..134………..2.70
Koufax………….47.6……..4.3……137-60..695…….122………..37…………147…………3.73
Hahn……………46.1……..3.8……127-92..580…….209………..24…………134…………2.40

Hahn’s .580 W-L% compares to .491 for his teams. The others played for teams that were well above .500.

Last edited 2 months ago by Doug
Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Always a good time to consider Noodles! He’s really overlooked (except for the B-R home page, which seems to include his photo — the handsome one — among the featured ones with unusual frequency). The distinctive turn for Hahn is that his WAR outside those seasons was -0.1. He was done a couple of months after turning 27.

Paul E
Paul E
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug,
Hall of Fame nickname….as far as Hahn is concerned, Nap Rucker had a very similar career in the same era. Maybe we consider Rucker and Hahn? I’m very late with these suggestions….. 🙁

Voomo
Voomo
2 months ago
Reply to  Voomo

Medwick: His peak was short, but during those years he was arguably the best position player in the NL not named Ott. Kiner: He led the league in HR his first 7 years. In 1947, his 2nd year, Pittsburgh moved the LF power alley to 355 feet. So, I acknowledge that maybe Alvaro Espinoza might have hit 40 there. Voting for that black ink anyway. Dean: Best pitcher from age 23-27. One of the greatest characters. Goose: We have only acknowledged Mariano and Wilhelm out of the pen. Goose is right there. Cone: He was exceptional for a.long time. I… Read more »

Doug
Doug
2 months ago
Reply to  Voomo

In WAR and IP, Cone closely resembles three other pitchers, two in the CoG (Vance and Waddell) and one not (Newhouser). The cloud hanging over Newhouser is that his two best seasons were during the war. He was still really good for three years after the war, just not as good as he had been during the war. The W-L% of the other three are also very similar, with Cone’s a bit higher, likely not unrelated to Cone playing on better teams. Here’s the list. Six other starting pitchers have similar WAR to the four above, but in a season… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Doug
no statistician but
no statistician but
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

According to his bio, McGinnity’s disappearance from the majors was voluntary. A handful of other players have followed a similar path, usually to take on player-manager roles. In Joe’s case he became team president and star pitcher for Newark, just across the river from his old job, and at age 41 extended his career by becoming a player manager for a succession of mid to lower level minor league teams. He had a 6-6 record in Dubuque at age 54. Who was the last player, I wonder, to keep on playing regularly in the minors, not just awhile but for… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

A nice post, nsb. Thanks for pointing to McGinnity’s SABR bio; it’s well worth reading (and thanks to Doug for looking into the Iron Man’s post-MLB career in the first place). He was a most unusual player and person. I think that given the way that the Minors became increasingly incorporated into the MLB business structure from the 1930s on, the places to look for post-MLB parallels would be the rare independent league, like the Atlantic League, and foreign leagues, most obviously Japan. Obviously there’s considerable money involved with foreign professional leagues now, but even McGinnity wasn’t simply playing for… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Bob Eno
Paul E
Paul E
2 months ago

I don’t know if anyone would call it a “significant career” but oft-traded George Brunet pitched in Mexico for about 10 years till age 49.

Jigger Statz and Morrie Arnovich played a long time in the minors and Luke Easter hit a lot of home runs in the minors for many years after his major league career .

no statistician but
no statistician but
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Thanks. As far as I knew Luke Easter was the last to do so, but Brunet antedates him by fifteen or twenty years. Statz and Arnovich came early and were only a pair of several, if not many. I don’t have time to dig out any names at the moment, and my memory is dying a slow death due to the aging process. OK, a quick look: Cedric Durst—everyone remembers him, right?—platooned in the bigs for five years and was on the 1927 Yankees, batted .375 in the ’28 Series. Then two years in St. Paul, followed by a dozen… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

Here’s my vote: Doby Terry Saberhagen Cone Edmonds My last slot was a toss-up between Edmonds and Bando. Edmonds looks very much like Reggie Smith and Bando looks a lot like Ken Boyer. Since I’ve voted for both Smith and Boyer to be on the Primary Ballot, I see both Edmonds and Bando as qualified CoG prospects, but there’s room for only one on my ballot here. One thing this exercise has convinced me of is that the CoG threshold area is very crowded and likely to become more so as replacement-level standards continue to rise. I think we may… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
2 months ago

Here’s my five:

Ralph Kiner
Larry Doby
Bill Terry
Willie Stargell
Lance Berkman

However I was surprised to see Charlie Keller was so high up on the list of OPS+.

Voomo
Voomo
2 months ago

Hall of Fame Ballot in 2009 – Cone’s only year

Rickey Henderson 94.8
Jim Rice 76.4
Andre Dawson 67.0
Bert Blyleven 62.7
Lee Smith 44.5
Jack Morris 44.0
Tommy John 31.7
Tim Raines 22.6
Mark McGwire 21.9
Alan Trammell 17.4
Dave Parker 15.0
Don Mattingly 11.9
Dale Murphy 11.5
Harold Baines 5.9
†Mark Grace* 4.1
†David Cone* 3.9

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Voomo

I’m not sure this is unusual, Voomo. Look at Saberhagen in 2007, his only year. Here are the top ten: Ripkin 98.5% Gwynn 97.6% Goose 71.2% Rice 63.5% Dawson 56.7% Blyleven 47.7% Lee Smith 39.8% Morris 37.1% McGwire 23.5% John 22.9% Then come 10 more, starting with Steve Garvey and his 38.1 WAR (21.1%) till you finally get to #21: Saberhagen 1.3% Only 7 of the 20 above Saberhagen had more WAR; only 6 had a higher JAWS rank; only 3 had higher WAR7. But Bill James’s Monitor, which predicts HoF votes rather than HoF worthiness put Saberhagen just about… Read more »

Voomo
Voomo
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

I wasn’t expressing any particular opinion. Just giving context to what it looked like when he was overlooked.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Voomo

Well, James’s Monitor certainly was surprised by Cone’s one-and-done finish.

opal611
opal611
2 months ago

For the 2025 Redemption Round, I’m voting for:

-Rafael Palmeiro
-Buddy Bell
-Tommy John
-Mark McGwire
-Rick Reuschel

Thanks!

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago

Redemption is near! But it is unclear for whom. With hours remaining we have only five ballots (nsb, Voomo, Richard, opal, me) and a total of 21 votes, no one exceeding a count of 2:

2 Cone, Doby, Kiner, Terry
1 Bell, Berkman, Dean, Edmonds, Gibson, Gossage, John, McGwire, Medwick, Palmeiro, Reuschel, Saberhagen, Stargell

So far lot of conversation, not many votes.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
2 months ago

Shoot – totally forgot about the deadline. Not much time to make any arguments for my picks. Going with:

1. Doby
2. Oliva
3. Edmonds
4. Medwick
5. Puckett

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

After an exhaustive search I find no statutory bar to offering arguments post-vote, Tuna. We’ve heard some arguments about Doby, Edmonds, and Medwick, but Oliva and Puckett are new to this string, and Oliva has never been discussed at any length. (Checking back, when he was eligible for election to the CoG in 2013 he received one vote out of 69 ballots cast).

I liked Oliva a lot when he was playing (those were days when batting average counted for a lot). I’d be interested to hear the thoughts that guided your vote for him.

no statistician but
no statistician but
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Oliva and Puckett not only played for the same team, though several years apart; their offensive production was remarkably similar, and both were brought down, Oliva sooner, by physical debilities. Oliva’s congenital knee condition, leading to a series of operations that made him functional with a bat but not a glove, wasn’t as career destroying as Puckett’s vision loss, thanks to the fortuitous institution of the DH in 1973, giving him four extra seasons, but the magic was lost, and he got no extra WAR to pad his stats. His election to the Hall made me feel, for one of… Read more »

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Thanks for the prompt, Bob. I finally found a little time to respond this evening. My main reason in voting for Oliva and Puckett is that I missed the opportunity to campaign for them when they originally became eligible for the Circle of Greats. I first discovered HHS in December, 2013, about a week after Oliva fell off the ballot amidst stiff competition and ten months after Puckett’s similar fate. As nsb pointed out, Oliva and Puckett were remarkably similar in their offensive production. They showed up together in a couple older HHS posts. Graham Womack noted in 2014 that Puckett… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

What we need now, Scary, is a way to index this great brace of arguments so it’s easy to access next time we have a redemption round.

Doug
Doug
2 months ago

Final tally:
3 – Doby
2 – Cone, Edmonds, Kiner, Medwick, Terry
=================================
1 – Bell, Berkman, Dean, Gibson, Gossage, John, McGwire, Oliva, Palmeiro, Puckett, Reuschel, Saberhagen, Stargell

Thanks for participating.

Now get ready for the North American opening day, just three days away.

Paul E
Paul E
2 months ago

Again, off the beaten path…..yesterday, Mackenzie Gore of the DC Federales threw 6 one-hit innings with 0 BB and 13 strikeouts. The lone base runner ( a Kyle schwarber single) was erased on a caught stealing. His game score was 83 for the 6 innings. Is this a record for a 6-inning outing?

Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks !!

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Schwarber hit a single? Are you sure it was Schwarber? Even he seems to have been so confused that he thought he was a different player, one who could steal bases.

Doug
Doug
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Schwarber has 29 games in his career with a single and an attempted steal. He went 18 for 29 in those steal attempts, including 3 for 4 last season.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Well, Doug, I’d write that those 29 probably represent all the singles Schwarber has ever hit in his extra-base-and-strikeout-heavy career — each one disorienting him in the same way — except you’d probably be a killjoy and cite facts again.

Doug
Doug
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Tongue firmly in cheek here, but there may be something to your disorientation theory; when Schwarber has both a walk and a single in a game, he’s only 5 for 13 in stolen bases. Schwarber currently ranks 63rd in career WAR among 68 players with as many walks as singles in a 4000 PA career. When he (likely) surpasses 5000 PA later this season, he’ll probably rank last in WAR among 54 players with that distinction in a 5000 PA career (Schwarber needs another 2.8 WAR in his career to move past Adam Dunn in that group). Looks like Schwarber… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Doug
Doug
Doug
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul E

Almost. Gore is tied for second behind Jose Berrios, who logged an 84 game score in this game, with 0 hits, 0 walks, 12 K’s and one hit batter for the Twins in the second game of the 2021 season.

The pre-expansion record is a 79 (currently T-22nd) by Hank Aguirre of the 1960 Tigers, who flummoxed the Yankees in this tilt.

Here’s the list.

Paul E
Paul E
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Thank you !!

Doug
Doug
2 months ago

Lost in the hoopla surrounding Tyler O’Neill homering in his sixth straight opening day game is the quirk that he posted a 3-3-3-3 box score line, the first opening day n-n-n-n game with n of 3 or more. Five players have recorded a 2-2-2-2 game on opening day, including Madison Bumgarner.

Doug
Doug
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Aaron Judge has put up two highly unusual box score lines in consecutive games. His 6-4-4-8 in the Yankees 20-9 win over the Brewers is one of six such games, while his 1-4-1-2 game the next day is just the eighth since 1901. The Yankees’ 13 home runs over their last two games ties the record for most by a team when scoring 32+ runs over two games. Whose record did they tie? The Yankees, of course, in 1939 and 2020. Those 13 homers are one fewer than the record posted by the 1999 Reds for any two consecutive games.… Read more »

Doug
Doug
2 months ago

In my post on him from last season, I mentioned that Bowden Francis is on pace to become the first live ball era pitcher to allow fewer baserunners than innings pitched over the first 50 games of a career (min. 125+ IP). Francis allowed 5 baserunners over 6 IP in his debut 2025 start today to put him at 143 baserunners and 146.2 IP over his first 49 games. Hoping I haven’t jinxed him now.

Doug
Doug
2 months ago

With their 7-0 start, the Dodgers have tied the record for the longest win streak starting a season by a defending WS champion. 7 – 2025 Dodgers*, 1933 Yankees 6 – 1985 Tigers For defending league champions, the list looks like this: 9 – 1918 Giants 7 – 2025 Dodgers*, 2015 Royals, 2003 Giants, 1933 Yankees 6 – 2011 Rangers, 1998 Indians, 1985 Tigers, 1920 White Sox A fast start is also a pretty good predictor for a successful season. Here are the longest winning streaks to start a season by teams that became pennant winners, with WS champions italicized.… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Doug
no statistician but
no statistician but
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

Your comments got me wondering about fast starts, so I looked up the two that I remembered that extended well into the season, Dodgers 1955 (Yes, I remember it. I’d been following baseball as a kid since the previous year, and actually saw the Dodgers play the Cubs in Wrigley that summer, my first experience at a big league park) and Tigers 1984. Both teams cooled considerably, especially in August, but won pennants by comfortable margins. So then I decided to look up the starts of the teams who won the most games in a season, just as a control:… Read more »

Doug
Doug
2 months ago

Indeed a tough finish to beat. The Miracle Braves, for example, were only 33-8-3 to finish their season, although their 68-19-4 mark from July 5th to season’s end could be one to beat over that long a span.

You mention the ’54 Indians were slow out of the gate. After a 3-6 start, they finished 108-37, including 55-16 after the A-S break.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Doug

The ’42 Cards split a twin bill with the Cubs on July 4, winning the second. That was the start of a 66-19 run, including two playoff wins. The ’14 Braves still shade them, though.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 months ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

One further thought when considering the 1906 Cubs, 1954 Indians, and the Miracle Braves: The Cubs followed that 50-8 strong with a 2-4 Series; the Indians followed their 55-16 string with an 0-4 Series; while the Braves added 4-0 to their 33-8. By those measures, in percentage terms the 1914 Braves come out on top. BTW, much as it irks me to mention it, the NY Giants went 39-8 to close the ’51 season. Add in their Series and they fall behind, but their streak should be in the mix; like the ’42 Cards they helped create the mythology of… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
1 month ago

Is anyone aware that there is a notice about a plugin problem with the High Heat Stats website showing up when the page opens? Doug?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
1 month ago

I have such a notice.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
1 month ago

I manage a WordPress site and these things occasionally happen without otherwise impairing the site. (Not every plugin is significant.) I’m sure Doug will take care of it and in the meantime the site’s obviously working. . . . How ’bout them Rockies!! Ryan McMahon is on pace to set the record for season K’s and might fall short of double digits in HRs, but he’s still in positive WAR territory. Last season I rooted fiercely for the ChiSox — all season long it appeared they would be the first team in the two-league era to both lose more games… Read more »

Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Congrats to the Rockies on their 2-1 win Wed over the Braves to improve their record to 5-25. That’s one win better than the 1988 Orioles who stood at 4-26 after 30 games after an 0-21 start to the season. By way of comparison, the 1899 Spiders were 7-23 after 30 games and 12-49 after 61 games (34 at home and 27 on the road). Cleveland then embarked on a 50 game (yes 5-oh, fifty) road trip, came home for 7 games (total attendance of 1200 for the home stand), then finished the campaign on a 36 game road odyssey… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
1 month ago
Reply to  Doug

Gotta ask, “How in the name of Ned Hanlon did they play 112 road games in a 154 game season”?

Did management just agree, “we stink but can’t draw flies”, so they played all road games?

Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul E

That’s it exactly. Ownership decided it cost more to host a game than could be justified by the crowds they were drawing, and made the decision to stop playing at home. The 7 game homestand between those two long road trips was played in Cleveland because both of their opponents (the Giants and the Boston club) had to be in Chicago the day after the Cleveland series, so sensibly declined to host the Spiders. The singleton “home” game played in St. Louis was against the Colonels, who also elected to play their last 14 home games on the road. The… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Doug
Doug
Doug
1 month ago

HHSers, our site is having problems right now, as you can see by the error messages at the top of the screen. I am not able to compose or post new content right now, so I’ll just pass along a few thoughts about Saturday’s 4 HR game by Eugenio Suarez. -Rarer than a perfect game, Suarez is the 17th and oldest player to achieve the feat. At game 1498 of his career, he also achieved the feat later in his career than anyone else. Pat Seerey (age 25) is the youngest player with a 4 HR game and Mark Whiten… Read more »

Four-HR-Games
Last edited 1 month ago by Doug
Paul E
Paul E
1 month ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug,
Thanks for the info – Suarez has GOTTA be the only guy with a sub – .200 batting average (~ .165) going into his big game. Whiten also the only switch-hitter?

Paul E
Paul E
1 month ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug,
Sorry – Schmidt was 3 for 16 (.167) prior to the big event in his fifth game of the season. The story was that Gehrig flew out to deep CF at Shibe Park (440+ feet) in his last at bat?

Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul E

Thanks for the subtle correction on Shibe Park. Not sure why “Connie Mack Stadium” came to my mind, as that rename didn’t happen until 1953, in tribute to the former owner and manager who retired at at the tender age of 87 following the 1950 season (the same year Mack’s sons took over the helm as principal owners). That tribute failed to keep the team in Philly, as the Mack sons bowed to pressure from Yankee ownership to sell the team to the owner of the Yankees’ farm team in Kansas City. After relocation to Missouri, the cozy relationship between… Read more »

Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul E

The story about Gehrig’s final PA in the game seems very plausible, as his bases loaded sac fly advanced all three baserunners.

Paul E
Paul E
1 month ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug, From his SABR Bio: “Gehrig always liked hitting at Shibe. In fact, the only parks where he had hit more home runs were Yankee Stadium and Sportsman’s Park in St. Louis. In his first at-bat, Gehrig drove a George Earnshaw fastball over the fence in left-center field. In his second time up, he hit his second round-tripper against Earnshaw, this one a blast over the wall in right. In the fifth inning, he took the big right-hander deep a third time. It was the fourth time Gehrig had homered three times in a game, a new major league record. Only two players had… Read more »

Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Doug

Paul, I can see your response, but no one else can. Best not to include a bunch of links in your posts, as those will be blocked pending approval. And, right now, the plugin error is preventing me from logging into the site and approving comments. Site admin (it’s not me) will fix this (I hope). Here is Paul’s post, minus the links. From his SABR Bio: “Gehrig always liked hitting at Shibe. In fact, the only parks where he had hit more home runs were Yankee Stadium and Sportsman’s Park in St. Louis. In his first at-bat, Gehrig drove a George Earnshaw fastball… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
1 month ago
Reply to  Doug

The name on this list that always puzzled me when I was young was Pat Seerey. The list was short then (five names: I remember feeling strange adding Colavito) and the names all prominent ones except for Seerey. I knew nothing about him and I discovered after reading Doug’s post today that about seven decades later I knew nothing more–just that he hit four HR in a game (one in extra innings) and had a brief career. Brief for a reason: in his four seasons as a regular he led the league in strikeouts every single year and has no… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
1 month ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Seerey is 1 of 2 players with 15+ TB in each of 2 games, 15 in one and 16 in the other. Willie Mays is the other, also with 15 in one and 16 in the other.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
1 month ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Pat Seerey and Willie Mays are the only players with multiple games of 15+ TB. They each had 2 such games

Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

One year removed from Seerey’s final major league season, he had drifted all the way down to A ball. He took full advantage of the competition and the thin Colordao air to post the totals below (click on the image to see clearly), with as many Runs, BB and RBI as Hits, and twice as many TB as Hits. Charlie Keller has the only like major league season of 100+ PA, with 36 Hits, 36 Runs, 36 RBI, 41 BB and 83 TB in 1947.

Pat-Seerey-1950
Last edited 1 month ago by Doug
Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Bubba Trammell looks like a modern equivalent to Seerey. Didn’t strike out as much (and thus had a better BA), but quite similar otherwise (including a virtually identical 4.2 WAR). Click on image to see clearly.

Pat-Seerey-vs-Bubba-Trammell
Last edited 1 month ago by Doug
Bob Eno
Bob Eno
1 month ago
Reply to  Doug

Well, career stats are one thing, Doug, but their profiles as players seem very different. For example, 15% of Seerey’s 86 HR were produced in just five of his 561 games (with HR totals of 4, 3, and 2 three times). He was an explosive hitter, as comments from Bob Feller, Bill Veeck, and sportswriter Gordon Cobbledick in his SABR bio suggest. Cobbledick wrote this about the reaction to Seerey in Philadelphia, which was not his home stadium: “In Philadelphia the fans in the double decked left field pavilion adopted a ritual years ago by way of indicating their opinion… Read more »

Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Doug

Correcting myself, Suarez is the second player with 4 HR in a losing cause, following Bob Horner. Makes some sense that Suarez, Horner and Gehrig all homered 3 times off the starting pitcher, as all three games were close, with the Gehrig game only turning lopsided after a two out 9th inning grannie by Tony Lazzeri (the Yankees’ 7 HR were then a single game record, tying the mark set by the A’s in this 1921 game).

Last edited 1 month ago by Doug
Bob Eno
Bob Eno
1 month ago

I’m impressed that we have so many new posters on HHS now that the WordPress plugin glitch is fixed! These new baseball fans will surely have a lot to offer. My advanced linguistic skills (and those of my good friend Art Intelli) reveal that our new co-posters: produce diplomas for psychologists, lawyers, economists and any other professions at low prices; believe it is profitable to buy a diploma of education; argue that buying a document of higher education through a high-quality and reliable company gives a number of advantages to the buyer; advise that this decision helps to save time… Read more »

Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

As you can tell by all those new “fans”, we’re not fixed yet. We’ve just disabled the plug-ins (the spam filter among them) to allow us to log in and diagnose what the problem is.

Hopefully will be back to normal soon.

Paul E
Paul E
1 month ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

The Russians are Coming, the Russians are Coming ………………

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
1 month ago

(I want to add that only someone supremely qualified would understand the importance of typing “higher” for “hire.” (The edit function seems to have escaped during the page makeover.)

Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

We’ve disabled all the plug-ins and are adding them back one by one to determine which one(s) caused our problems.

The first one to be added back was the spam filter, which is now operational without issue.

Editing comments will come a bit later.

Andy
Admin
1 month ago
Reply to  Doug

I’ve activated what I think was the same commenting platform we had before, which actually should allow all the things you asked me about over email, Doug. Please see my reply email–let me know if I’m on the right track.

Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Andy

The comment formatting controls look normal.

I’ve added an image to the comment, which also appears to be working normally.

The editing is working fine as well.

Last edited 1 month ago by Doug
Doug
Doug
1 month ago
Reply to  Andy

The first image (a .jpg file) didn’t take in the comment above. Trying a .png now.

Pat-Seerey-vs-Bubba-Trammell
Andy
Admin
1 month ago
Reply to  Doug

Just testing an image attachment.

REAL-ROOKIES-2
Doug
Doug
1 month ago

In his 15th big league game (all this season) on Saturday night in Seattle, Blue Jay reliever Mason Fluharty retired all four batters he faced to record the W and extend his season record to 3-0. So far this year, Fluharty has allowed only 4 base hits over 15⅓ IP, the fewest by a left-hander to start a career over 15 games and 15+ IP, all in relief, and tied (with Kyle Barraclough) for the fewest by any reliever. Here’s that list. Three of the hitters Fluharty retired Saturday were batting right-handed; for the season RH batters are now 0… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Doug
no statistician but
no statistician but
1 month ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug: HHS must be back in biz.These comments about Fluharty inspired me to look up some random hurlers over the years to see if any bucked the platoon split during an extensive career. There may be others, but Mariano Rivera is the only one that my brief survey found to do so ( .209 BA allowed to lefties, .215 to righties ). Nolan Ryan, however, broke even, and Roger Clemens’ allowed lefties to hit better than righties by just .001. My first guess was Carl Hubbell, famous for his screwball that confounded RHBers, (turning him, supposedly, into a right handed… Read more »

Tom
Tom
1 month ago

Clayton Kershaw is at .018. .214 vs rh, .196 vs lh.

Last edited 1 month ago by Tom
no statistician but
no statistician but
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom

Tom: I’m sorry to call you on this, but Kershaw’s a lefty, so he is merely going with the platoon split. Pitchers generally do better against their own kind because their curve ball breaks away from the batter, and worse facing their opposites because it breaks toward the batter. Playing in league ball sixty-odd years ago as a left-handed batter, I hardly saw a left-handed pitcher, and, until my last year of competing, none who threw a curve. Luckily, that happened in just one game. Four swinging strikeouts including a single foul tip. Curves had always broken in toward me… Read more »

Tom
Tom
1 month ago

d’oh, my mistake.

Doug
Doug
1 month ago

There are only 57 left-handed pitchers for which data are complete to post a reverse OPS platoon split in 500+ career IP against RH batters. Topping the list is Ricky Romero, who pitched for Toronto from 2009 to 2013. He held righties to .683 OPS, but was scorched by lefties to the tune of .862. Next on the list is (as you guessed) Carl Hubbell, followed by Lefty Grove. Here are the top 25 (click on image to make it bigger).

Career-Negative-OPS-Platoon-Split-for-Left-Handed-Pitchers-min.-500-IP-vs-RH-Batters
Last edited 1 month ago by Doug
Doug
Doug
30 days ago

Dalton Rushing made his career debut for the Dodgers on Thu, May 15. Apropos of his surname, the 5’11” 220lb catcher is built like a fullback. His debut was memorable for his 4-3-2-0 box score line, the first ever in a career debut.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
28 days ago
Reply to  Doug

I don’t know how this would line up against precedents, but I think the 6-0 early season W-L record by Nats reliever Jorge Lopez is worthy of note. Lopez is tied for the league lead in wins, rare for a reliever a quarter of the season in. He’s on pace for 21 wins and he’s only thrown 20 innings. A tremendous performance so far! What is more remarkable, however, is that Lopez has managed to post these gaudy stats in 20 innings of 7.20 ERA / 58 ERA+, with -0.5 pWAR. It’s not a matter of any single blow-out game… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
27 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Wow! Hard to believe that line hasn’t happened in 23,464 prior ML debuts!! How about John Paciorek’s 3-4-3-3 on Sunday, Sept 29, 1963 in the Colt 45’s 162nd game of the year. The Astros may have developed more talent than just about any organization in the 1960’s and early ’70’s….. Staub, Wynn, Morgan, Colbert, Mayberry, Watson, Cedeno, Dierker, Don Wilson, Giusti

Paul E
Paul E
26 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Great stuff – thanks !

Paul E
Paul E
26 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Pretty impressive debut by the pitcher Steven Matz (3/3 4 RBI). Almost as impressive as his timing on the 29 starts with TOR in 2021 (117 ERA+) earning a 4 yr/ $44M contract

Tom
Tom
26 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Well, the Dodgers did have Sutton, Garvey, Buckner, Cey, Lopes, Russell, Hough, Singer, Alexander, Lacy, Paciorek, Yeager, Rau…

The Giants were an OF factory: J Alou, K Henderson, Bonds, O Brown, Foster, Kingman, Maddox, Thomasson…

The Mets were a pitching factory: Seaver, Ryan, Koosman, McGraw, Gentry, Matlack, Swan…

Paul E
Paul E
26 days ago
Reply to  Tom

Tom,
Maybe I should have qualified the statement by adding that, “perhaps no organization gave up on their significant talent more prematurely than the Astros” with guys like Morgan, Staub, Colbert, Mayberry. In addition to the Giants you mentioned, I believe Leon Wagner and Willie Kirkland could be added to that list. By the same token, with only 20 organizations, things weren’t spread as thin as nowadays and it seemed like GM’s were playing poker with their (abundance of?) talent.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
26 days ago
Reply to  Doug

I had a post that was somehow eaten a couple of days ago (it actually said, “Awaiting for approval,” then it disappeared) that noted a different kind of fast start this season. Reliever Jorge Lopez is tied for the best 2025 pitching W-L record in baseball (6-0) with only 21 IP (it was 20 when I first posted. He has managed this show of excellence (on track for a 20-win season!) with an ERA of 6.96 and an ERA+ of 60. Quite an unusual combination.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
23 days ago

I’d like to pause and acknowledge some outstanding (in the sense of standing out) first-fifty-game records by storied MLB teams through the ages:

2024 Chicago White Sox………..15-35
1916 Philadelphia Athletics…….15-35
2003 Detroit Tigers………………..13-37
1962 New York Metropolitans….13-37
1988 Baltimore Orioles…………..11-39
1932 Boston Red Sox…………….10-40
1897 Baltimore Orioles…………..10-40
1904 Washington Senators……….9-41
1899 Cleveland Spiders…………. 9-41
1886 Washington Nationals………9-41
2025 Colorado Rockies………….. 8-42
1895 Louisville Colonels………… 7-43

Given recent history it would, I think, be wrong to say we shall not see their like again.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
23 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Somehow, I missed an easy one!

2025 Chicago Whites Sox……15-35

What a great year!

Doug
Doug
21 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Looking at the Rockies’ team page, they currently have principal starters at four positions with 35+ games and OPS under .650 (that’s OPS+ under 75). And, their principal second baseman is sporting a 33 OPS+ in 30 games (that would be rookie Adael Amador, who now holds the franchise record for lowest OPS through the first 40 games and 120+ PA of a career; Amador can take heart knowing that Charlie Blackmon was only a bit better, placing fourth on that list). The Rockies’ #1 and #3 WAR totals belong to relief pitchers with a combined 45 IP (relief pitching… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
23 days ago

Mike Trout is back on the DL. Is anyone surprised? I’ve been trying to find a similar career by a position player in the past—one who dominates through age 27, then falls prey to injuries but hangs around, injured time after time, skills diminishing, but—unless you count Darryl Strawberry, a lesser player whose troubles only showed up after 10 seasons and involved drugs more than injury—I don’t see one. Time is running short. When he came on the scene—does anyone else remember?—the discussion here at HHS focussed on whether he was or wasn’t the greatest player ever, rivaling Mays all… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
23 days ago

NSB,
“Mike Trout is back on the DL. Is anyone surprised?”
He re-upped with Arte Moreno and Arte is getting the same return as Rendon, Hamilton, and Pujols provided. Arte, for all his $billions, is still “The Moishe”

Doug
Doug
9 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Trout is back, after a month away.

Small sample size, but he’s slashing .476/.542/.667 in 6 games since his return. Has played only DH and PH in those 6 games.

Last edited 9 days ago by Doug
Bob Eno
Bob Eno
23 days ago

I think there are parallel careers, nsb, but not equivalent ones because the level of Trout’s prime was so high. George Sisler and Chuck Klein would be examples we’ve often discussed in the Circle of Greats context. The most compressed version might be Pete Reiser before/after July 1942.

no statistician but
no statistician but
22 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

I suppose Sisler and Klein are parallel in certain, differing ways, but both kept on as regular, full-time players for a few seasons, especially Sisler, who was in the lineup every day for about seven years, and both suffered just one career killing incident, whereas Trout’s decline has been due to injuries all over: Thumb, Foot, Calf, Hand, and Knee twice (so far). Players used to tough it out with lesser injuries for fear of losing their jobs and sources of income. Now they’re income secure and play it safe, BUT— time doesn’t stand still, and the body and trained… Read more »

Doug
Doug
21 days ago

I think your point about diminishing skills is mostly applicable to this season. Before that, he was still producing WAR at a stellar clip, with allowances for his advancing age. Here are his 162 game WAR rates since 2017, his first season with significant time lost to injury. 2017 (25): 9.8 2018 (26): 11.5 2019 (27): 9.6 2020 (28): 5.5 2021 (29): 8.6 2022 (30): 8.3 2023 (31): 5.7 2024 (32): 6.1 2025 (33): -1.1 For 8 seasons (2017-24), Trout compiled 38.4 WAR in 707 games, or 59% of the Angels games. His WAR rate for those seasons was 6.2… Read more »

Mike-Trout-Age-29-32
Bob Eno
Bob Eno
21 days ago

When you write, “modern guys take long periods to recover” it makes me think more of pitching than hitting (reflected in the Dodgers’ recent proposal to play their home games at LA Memorial Hospital). I wonder whether the high performance standards that begin to apply to kids in their early teens (if not before) are beginning to have a similar effect on position players.

no statistician but
no statistician but
21 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Kris Bryant’s career is a scaled down version of Trout’s, for what it’s worth, plugging along for that Colorado franchise you keep cheering on. Acuna, Jr., we’ll see about. On the DL from May 27, 2024 to May 23, 2025. Judge has lost a third of a season thrice in his career. Giancarlo Stanton, a DH(!),
has had one qualifying season since 2018. I’m sure there are others, but these long stretches out of the lineup aren’t new at this point for position players, according to my reading.

no statistician but
no statistician but
21 days ago

Doug actually pointed out another seemingly always-on-the DL-player, Byron Buxton, whose career has shown only two years when he was healthy enough to appear in 100 games, and just one of those was a qualifying season—barely, 511 PAs.

Doug
Doug
19 days ago

Tarik Skubal’s shutout of the Guardians on 94 pitches were the fewest of the pitch count era (since 1988) in a CG with 13+ K’s, five pitches fewer than previous record-hokder Clayton Kershaw. There have been only 22 such games of fewer than 110 pitches, almost one third by Kershaw (5) and Greg Maddux (2).

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
18 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Skubal’s high Game Score going in was 81, set just a couple of weeks earlier. It’s now 96. Skubal threw only 21 balls and 1 HBP. He threw 48 strikes and there were 9 fouls on a two-strike count (8 of which were followed by a K). He allowed two hits. There were 13 other BiP resulting in 14 outs. Skubal went to a ball-three count on only one batter (a flyout) and a ball-two count on only three (all Ks). Pretty efficient. Ks are intrinsically inefficient. Exactly 50% (47) of Skubal’s pitches contributed towards Ks (if we count the… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
18 days ago
Reply to  Tom

Research! Thank you, Tom. I hadn’t found this and wondered how the pitch count was even known. The fact that the number came from the official scorer explains it.

Of course, it’s possible Barrett’s unofficial record stands only because pitch counts were not part of the records kept through the first century of MLB and in this case the official scorer, a reporter, reported it because of its exceptionally low number.

Doug
Doug
17 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Skubal is the 64th pitcher since 1901 (Rube Waddell was the first, in 1902) to record a 95+ game score over a maximum 9 IP with 13+ K while allowing two hits or less. These are the only pitchers in that group to do so more than once.

Last edited 17 days ago by Doug
Paul E
Paul E
17 days ago
Reply to  Doug

That is quite an impressive list – if you took the four “worst”, you would still have a decent rotation with:
Wood, Maloney, Bumgarner, and Rucker. I’d have to believe a league average batting lineup would win 95 games with that rotation

Doug
Doug
16 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Remarkably, three of Nolan Ryan’s five games on the list came aged 43 or older. Randy Johnson is the only other pitcher with such a game aged 40+.

Rucker is a lot closer in WAR and WAA to the top man on the list (Koufax) than you might guess. Here are the top 10 in WAR by Dodger southpaws (click on image to make it bigger).

Highest-WAR-by-Dodger-Left-Handers
Last edited 16 days ago by Doug
Paul E
Paul E
16 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Heavens to Noodles Hahn!! Rucker and Hahn are two guys absent from baseball lore. All you ever hear about are the “winners” and the “all-time greats” from that era….. nothing about the “very good to great” who played in those days unless they were on championship squads

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
15 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

I think there are good reasons for this, Paul, and I’m actually kind of glad that this is the way of the world. The reason we hear about fine-but-second-tier players on winning teams is because there’s generally a set of stories about team history and pennant races or World Series’ that ropes them in with the stars they played next to. Sometimes the stories deviate because the stories aren’t about team success so we hear about second-tier excellence on mediocre teams (that’s why we hear a lot about, say, Babe Herman or Bobo Newsom–though Bobo really belonged no team, or,… Read more »

Doug
Doug
15 days ago

One of the fun things I like to do when I watch a game is to search for something in the game that rarely happens. Take Friday’s A’s at Blue Jays game, won 11-7 by the home side. Couple of items of note: -the A’s starting lineup included four players appearing within the first 9 games, and first 10 games, of their careers, and three appearing within the first 7 games of their careers. All three marks are tied for the most such starters in the expansion era for a game within a team’s first 60 games of the season.… Read more »

Last edited 14 days ago by Doug
Bob Eno
Bob Eno
14 days ago

The Rockies situation is growing more and more alarming. Last evening they slipped to 40 games under .500 (9-49) in May. After 58 games they are two games behind the pace set by the Cleveland Spiders, who finished 20-134. If the Rockies somehow managed to go .500 over the rest of the season they would nonetheless have more than 100 losses. The season is more than 1/3 over–the sample size is getting large–and the Rockies are on pace for 25 wins.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
14 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Yes, they are behind pace in the sense that the Spiders had already won 11 of their first 58 games. That Cleveland squad won their 19th game on Aug. 25th, bringing their record to 19-94. Their .168 winning percentage at that point was still ahead of the Rockies’ current .155. After that the Spiders reeled off 24 straight losses, notched their 20th victory, then dropped their final 16 contests – an astonishing 1-40 finish to their 20-134 campaign. As alarming as the Rockies’ current 25-win projection is, they would eventually need to hit a higher gear of losing in order… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
13 days ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

All true Scary, and your last sentence is wonderfully phrased. I’d put no money on the Rockies finishing with only 21 wins. I can’t imagine they won’t significantly improve over their current .155 (well, it’s now .153, since they slipped to 9-50 this evening). On the other hand, if they really are as bad as their record suggests then a 25-win season is distinctly possible — and all they’d need to avoid too much winning is to encounter a few tough luck losses.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
12 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Some humor is needed amidst all the losses, especially for their loyal fans, still turning out over 26,000 per game. Another remarkable consideration is that while the 1899 Spiders were surely trying to win every day, ownership had given up on Cleveland, moving all the good players to their St. Louis club and playing 112 games on the road. The current Rockies club is playing just as poorly while presumably trying to field a competitive team. The teams’ managerial records seem eerily similar. The Spiders started out 8-30 (.211) under player-manager Lave Cross. After he was “traded” to St. Louis,… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
13 days ago

I was fooling around on B-R this evening and noticed an unusual set of stats. I thought I’d report it as a quiz. What pitcher began a season with the record below?

..IP……W…L…Pct…..H….R….ER….BB….SO…CG….ERA….Ave Game Score
54.2…..2…1. .667….34….5…..2…..10…..17……4……0.33…………..91

Paul E
Paul E
13 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Bob,
You would think dead-ball era but the fielding ( unearned runs in ~ 6 games ) isn’t quite bad enough to be typical of that era….. but the strikeouts are at an awfully low rate (2.9/9IP) for anything in the last 60 years. So, 1920 thru 1965 (?). Off the top of my head, (and a low H/9 IP rate), Luis Tiant in 1968?

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
13 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Interesting point about the fielding, Paul. It’s not Luis, though, as your comment on the strikeout rate implies. It’s kind of a trick question so I’ll add a pretty broad hint by giving, for context, the stats of another pitcher drawn from the same point in the same season:

..IP……W…L…Pct…..H….R….ER….BB….SO…CG….ERA….Ave Game Score
54.2…..2…1. .667….34….5…..2…..10…..17……4……0.33…………..91
52.0…..2…1.. .667….36….8…..5……..7…..19…….3……0.87…………….86

Paul E
Paul E
13 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Thanks for the hint – two needles in a haystack 🙂
Lefty Grove and George Earnshaw 1930 or
Babe Ruth and Dutch Leaonard 1916 or
Dizzy and Paul Dean 1931

Paul E
Paul E
13 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Bob,
How do these guys have such high game scores with so few strikeouts?

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
12 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Interesting guesses, Paul. I’m terrible at quizzes myself and probably wouldn’t even have attempted this one.

I think the way get the answer now is to pursue your question. It’s precisely the right one to ask.

(I should add that I didn’t mean to imply that these two pitchers were teammates.)

Paul E
Paul E
12 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Joe Oeschger…. and Leon Cadore first four starts (or so) of 1920

Doug
Doug
12 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Paul got it!

Here are their season totals on May 2, 1920 (click on image to make it clear).

Cadore-Oeschger
Last edited 12 days ago by Doug
Bob Eno
Bob Eno
11 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Paul got it indeed. Congratulations!! The Grand Prize, a brand new Studebaker, will be shipped as soon as it rolls off the assembly line. I stumbled across Oeschger’s odd stat line because when Doug was charting pitchers with 95+ GmSc two-hitters (or better) I thought about the 9IP limit and tried to recall Oeschger’s GmSc on May 1, which I believe was the highest ever (153). I hadn’t appreciated before how early in the season the game was, how well Oeschger had done in his first three games, and how odd it was that he had only a 2-1 record… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
11 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Bob,
Thanks, but I was counting on a Hudson. In consecutive games, Brooklyn starters pitched CG’s of 26 innings (Cadore), 13 IP (Grimes), and 18 1/3 (Smith). For Boston, somebody named Dana Fillingim followed up on Oeschger’s 26 IP, with a 19 inning CG win (2-1 over Smith and Brooklyn).

Doug
Doug
9 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

It was 1920, but the live ball era hadn’t quite arrived yet!

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 days ago
Reply to  Doug

No, the ball wasn’t very lively yet, but the pace of play certainly was brisk. The 26 inning game was played in 3:50, then 13 innings in 2:16, and 19 innings in 3:05. The Braves hosted the Robins for three games: Friday, Saturday, and Monday. In between, the Robins went home to Brooklyn for a Sunday tilt they dropped to the Phillies (in 13 innings, mentioned above), then back to Boston for the Monday finale against the Braves. The three-games series was twice as long as normal: 54 innings in which eight runs were scored. Boston outscored Brooklyn 6-2 in… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
9 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Actually, if we take HR as an index, the lively ball first arrived in 1911 but calmed down afterwards and then reappeared in 1920 — but far more visibly in the AL than in the NL. Previously, the NL had consistently led in HR. Here’s a year-by-year list of total league HR (1918 was a shortened season — an average of 127 games — so there’s a projection to a 154G season in parens): ………..NL…..AL 1909…150…109 1910…214…147 1911…316…198 1912…286…156 1913…311…159 1914…267…148 1915…225…160 1916…239…144 1917…202…133 1918…139…..96…(168…116) 1919…207…240 1920…261…369 1921…460…477 Of course, a certain portion of the shift to an AL advantage… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
13 days ago

Gotta ask…. Saturday saw some lopsided results in MLB. Three teams scored 16,17, and 18 runs. Has this ever happened before? Maybe the scoring rich 1930’s?

no statistician but
no statistician but
13 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

I’ve been impressed by the high number of double-digit run-scoring performances this year, mostly in blowouts, and did a little comparison with last year but gave up because I don’t have the ability to break down last season’s figures. I don’t think I would have noticed if this year’s production was ordinary, though.

As to your specific question, my guess is that the answer is a resounding unlikely, but it might have happened.

Doug might have the ability to confirm or deny.

Paul E
Paul E
13 days ago

NSB,
With teams like the 2024 Rockies, the (improving) 2024 CWS, and more than half of the rest of MLB with mediocre 5th starters, it might even happen again this year 🙁

The Phillies recently looked like world-beaters when playing the Rockies (and Pirates, Athletics) and had the best W-L record in MLB….and then they got swept by Milwaukee and the Mets took over first place in NL East after playing ??? the Rockies and Chicago White Sox…..

Doug
Doug
11 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Colorado won their first series of the season on Tuesday, and have a shot at a sweep of Miami on Wednesday. It is the second time this season the Rocks have won consecutive games. The Spiders won two “series”, but both were one-game series, against Louisville on May 21st, and St. Louis on Jun 25th (it appears Sunday baseball was not allowed in Cleveland, so the Spiders would make single game Sunday road trips in the midst of home stands). The Jun 25th game was a make-up contest but, if the originally scheduled date is correct, it was a one-game… Read more »

Last edited 11 days ago by Doug
Voomo
Voomo
7 days ago
Reply to  Doug

I got to go to the 13-1 Yankees Rockies game a few weeks ago.

Yankees jerseys outnumbered Rockies jerseys in the stands about 20 to 1.

One Rockies fan had a t-shirt with a huge trophy on it that said:

NL West Participant

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
13 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

I was able to find 6 dates in which three teams scored at least 15 runs each: 8/2/1933, 7/25/1936, 7/14/1991,4/24/1993,8/8/2001 and 5/27/2004.

Paul E
Paul E
13 days ago

Richard,
Thanks for the quick response. I didn’t expect any dates from the 1960’s or ’70’s

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
13 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

I should have mentioned my search is from 1901 to 2022.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
12 days ago

On 07/14/91, 26 teams were in action, with two playing a double header, so 14 games in all.

The Royals scored 18, the Giants 17, and the White Sox 15. But the Mariners also scored 14, and the Pirates and Angels 10 apiece. Six teams in double digits, none in the same game.

Paul E
Paul E
9 days ago

SAW THIS: “Jesus Luzardo was historically bad these last two starts. He is the first pitcher in baseball history to give up 20 earned runs in just 5.2 innings over two starts.”



Doug
Doug
2 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Jesus’s offending starts (his first two losses of the seasons) are in the image below. He got back on the horse against the Cubs, allowing one run over 6 innings while whiffing 10 and walking none. Luzardo is just the 9th pitcher to allow 20 hits and 20 ER in consecutive incomplete starts (of any length) within a season. The previous record low IP when allowing 20+ runs over two starts was 6.2 IP by Pat Caraway of the 1931 White Sox, allowing 24 runs, including 21 earned. In his 2011 rookie season, Zack Britton logged consecutive starts totaling 1… Read more »

Jesus-Luzardo
Last edited 2 days ago by Doug