Circle of Greats 1981 Balloting Part 2

This post is for voting and discussion in the 145th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This is the second of two rounds of balloting adding to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1981. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1981-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This group of 1981-born candidates, comprising those with N-Z surnames, joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots (Josh Hamilton, who was missed inadvertently in the preceding round of balloting, is also eligible to receive your votes).

In addition to voting for COG election among players on the main ballot, there will be also be voting for elevation to the main ballot among players on the secondary ballot. For the main ballot election, voters must select three and only three eligible players, and list them in ranked order. The first player listed on each ballot receives three points, the second player listed receives two points, and the third player listed receives one point. The one player accumulating the most points from all ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. For the secondary ballot election, voters may select up to three eligible players, with the one player appearing on the most ballots cast elevated to the main ballot for the next COG election round. In the case of ties, a runoff election round will be held for COG election, while a tie-breaking process will be followed to determine the secondary ballot winner.

Players who fail to win either ballot but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. One additional round of eligibility is earned by any player who appears on at least 10% of the ballots cast or, for the main ballot only, any player finishing in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances. Holdover candidates on the main ballot who exhaust their eligibility will drop to the secondary ballot with eligibility for two COG election rounds. First time main ballot candidates who attract one or more votes but do not earn additional main ballot eligibility will drop to the secondary ballot with eligibility for one COG election round. Secondary ballot candidates who exhaust their eligibility will drop from that ballot, but will become eligible for possible reinstatement in a future Redemption round election.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Sunday, February 15th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Friday, February 13th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1981 Part 2 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also in the spreadsheet is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1981 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players, for both the main and secondary ballots, from the lists below of eligible players. The current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1981 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:

MAIN BALLOT ELIGIBILITY SECONDARY BALLOT ELIGIBILITY
Dick Allen 10 rounds Billy Williams 7 rounds
Ted Lyons 8 rounds Chase Utley 6 rounds
Stan Coveleski 7 rounds Ken Boyer 5 rounds
Vladimir Guerrero 6 rounds Monte Irvin 5 rounds
David Ortiz 4 rounds Don Sutton 5 rounds
Willie Randolph 4 rounds Bobby Abreu 4 rounds
Todd Helton 2 rounds Andre Dawson 3 rounds
Reggie Smith 2 rounds Larry Doby 3 rounds
Luis Tiant 2 rounds Jonathan Papelbon 2 rounds
Don Drysdale this round ONLY Gary Sheffield 2 rounds
Andruw Jones this round ONLY Ted Simmons 2 rounds
CC Sabathia this round ONLY Bill Terry 2 rounds
Johan Santana this round ONLY David Cone this round ONLY
    Jim Edmonds this round ONLY
    Ralph Kiner this round ONLY
    Joe Medwick this round ONLY

Everyday Players (born in 1981, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Brandon Phillips
Ben Zobrist
Mike Napoli
Ryan Raburn
Álex Ríos
Ángel Pagán
Guillermo Quiroz
Chris Snyder
Josh Hamilton
Alexei Ramirez

Pitchers (born in 1981, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Óliver Pérez
Adam Wainwright
Jake Peavy
James Shields
Carlos Zambrano
Jerome Williams
Joe Saunders

As is our custom, here are quiz questions for each of the new players on the ballot.

  1. Brandon Phillips’ 1586 games at second base is a Reds’ modern era franchise record, and his 191 home runs for Cincinnati are the most among all players with 500+ second base games for the Reds. Which two players are tied for 2nd on the latter list? (Joe Morgan & Pete Rose, 152 HR for the Reds)
  2. Ben Zobrist led his league in WAR in 2009 while playing 50+ games at 2B and in the outfield. Which player has since matched that feat? (Mookie Betts, 2023)
  3. Mike Napoli posted career bests in Total Bases and most other offensive categories for the 2016 AL champion Indians, becoming one of eight players with 30+ HR and 100+ RBI in a season with 50+ games at both 1B and DH. Which of those players recorded fewer Total Bases in such a season than Napoli’s mark of 259? (Jason Giambi, 2006)
  4. Ryan Raburn, in the 2011 ALCS, became the only player to homer in multiple games of a post-season series, while playing both LF and RF in each of those games. Which other player has homered in multiple games of a post-season series while playing two or more outfield positions in each of those games?
  5. Álex Ríos is the only White Sox player to post 3+ WAR seasons with 50+ XBH at two different outfield positions (min. 140 games at each position). Which expansion era Sox team boasted two such outfielders? (2003 White Sox, Carlos Lee & Magglio Ordonez)
  6. Ángel Pagán’s 4.0 WAR in 2009 is an NL modern era record for seasons with double-digit triples in fewer than 100 games. Pagan and Melky Cabrera each posted 4+ WAR with 10+ triples for the 2012 Giants, the first expansion era WS champion with two such players. When was the last time both league champions had a pair of such players? (1941, Joe DiMaggio & Charlie Keller for Yankees, Pete Reiser & Joe Medwick for Dodgers)
  7. Guillermo Quiroz followed Will Clark as the only Giants since 1988 with a pinch-hit walk-off HR on an 0-2 count. Quiroz’s 1.043 career OPS as a pinch-hitter is the highest by a retired Venezuelan-born expansion era player with 15+ PA as a pinch-hitter. Which such player has the highest career OPS in 100+ PA as a pinch-hitter?
  8. Chris Snyder is one of five catchers with a 3-run or grand slam home run in the final game of a post-season series. Which of those players, like Snyder, did not win the World Series that season?
  9. Josh Hamilton‘s career best 2010 season is the most recent of 56 major league campaigns with a .350 BA, 30 HR and 100 RBI, totals that Hamilton reached despite walking fewer than 50 times. Which player posted a .350/30/100 season with fewer than 50 walks and did not win his league’s batting title? (Al Simmons, 1929)
  10. Alexei Ramírez compiled 23.5 WAR over eight seasons with the White Sox. Which shortstop has the only higher WAR total in fewer than 5000 career PA for Chicago?
  11. Óliver Pérez led the majors in 2004 with 11.0 SO/9. Before Perez, who was the last Pirate to lead his league in SO/9 in a qualified season? (Mel Queen, 1951)
  12. Adam Wainwright and Yadier Molina started 328 games together as Cardinal batterymates, the most of any modern era battery. Which battery ranks second in starts for the Cardinals?
  13. Jake Peavy recorded a triple crown season and won the Cy Young Award in 2007. Which retired triple crown winner recorded fewer career wins than Peavy’s total of 152? (Johan Santana, 139 wins)
  14. James Shields posted a creditable .567 career W-L% … excluding his last three seasons. But those last three seasons were painful, with a .300 W-L% (18-42), 267 points lower than his mark prior to those three seasons. Among modern era pitchers with 1500+ IP careers, who experienced the only larger such drop in W-L%, in 50+ decisions over his final three seasons?
  15. Carlos Zambrano posted a record four consecutive 5+ WAR seasons with BB/9 of 3.5 or more. Which other modern era pitcher recorded more than one such season for the Cubs?
  16. Jerome Williams, at age 21-22, is the youngest of seven Giant pitchers with 1.4+ WAR per 100 IP in 40+ starts over the first two seasons of a career. Which of those pitchers posted the highest WAR rate over that part of their careers?
  17. Joe Saunders is one of 21 expansion era starting pitchers (min. 60% of games started) with a .650+ W-L% in 500+ IP over the first five seasons of a career. Saunders saw his W-L% drop almost 300 points (from .686 to .390) over the remainder of his career, easily the largest drop of that group. Of the three pitchers in that group who are currently active in the major leagues, who has seen the largest drop in W-L% between his first five seasons and the rest of his career to date?
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Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 days ago

Thanks for posting Part 2 of our COG 1981 balloting, along with your quiz, Doug.

#2 – Mookie Betts.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
6 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Betts has had a very impressive career to this point (and that still feels like an understatement).

I’m not sure how I forgot that Vaughan spent time with the Dodgers, since playing for Leo Derocher led to him walking away from baseball at 31 for three seasons.

It looks like he had just 10.4 WAR with Brooklyn (8.4 by age 32), so I think I am misunderstanding what you are saying about 30 WAR for the Dodgers.

Doug
Doug
6 days ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

You got me, Scary. My mistake. So, Betts and Vaughan are the only players to reach 75 WAR by age 32 and spend any time with the Dodgers.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
6 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Yes. Three others on the list (Pujols, Henderson, and Robinson) each played just one season with the Dodgers, though much later in their careers.

I agree: Betts doesn’t seem to be going anywhere. It helps that his manager isn’t publicly denigrating his players.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 days ago

#13 – I better not miss this one: Johan Santana.

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 days ago
Reply to  Doug

If one does, as I do, regard the live ball era as beginning around 1920 and ending around 1990, Lefty Grove is the only pitcher solely from those times on the list. Saberhagen, in his up and down, boom or bust career, comes closest otherwise, but Schilling and Clemens garnered most of their WAR later. The rest on the list are dead ball and modern (i.e. pitch count/TTT) pitchers. Is there another pitching career remotely resembling Saberhagen’s? Maybe Rick Sutcliffe’s on a much lower plane. Rucker especially benefits in this tally by pitching adequately for teams that had consistently poor… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
8 days ago

One of the biggest problems I feel the Circle of Greats discussions have is that we don’t have an active archive of the best arguments made for the current candidates. A number of these players have been on the ballot for over a decade, their stock rising and falling as strong cases for them persuade voters and then are forgotten. This year we’ve seen full-blown arguments offered for Smith (nsb), Williams (me), and Santana (Scary), so those may still be fresh in voters’ minds. Last round I linked to earlier arguments for Lyons, Tiant, Coveleski, Cone, Sutton, and Santana. I’ve… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
8 days ago

Here’s Doug’s analysis of Luis Tiant‘s case for the CoG from 2024. Like some of the most persuasive analyses, Doug’s looks at critical factors shaping the player’s career, beyond the bare stats. …………….. Two pitchers among our holdovers. One is Ted Lyons whom we’ve discussed a fair bit in recent elections. The other is Luis Tiant, who must have attracted a fair bit of attention a while back (his Eligibility Seasons was once as high as 9, I believe) but has scarcely been mentioned recently, much less attracted a vote. [Bob’s Note: Tiant’s peak in Circle voting was in February… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 days ago

Answer to #9 is Al Simmons in 1929.

Voomo
Voomo
8 days ago

Don Drysdale was done at 32 because of shoulder injuries. If he lived in this century, what would have been possible?

Voomo
Voomo
8 days ago

Vote:

Don Drysdale
Andruw Jones
Johan Santana

Voomo
Voomo
8 days ago

Secondary Vote:

Cone
Kiner
Medwick

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 days ago

Answer to #3 is Jason Giambi in 2006.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
8 days ago

Ken Boyer has been bouncing between primary and secondary ballots for eight years and I think the arguments for him — which go beyond his stats and concern his historic role transforming the role of third basemen — have been left behind. I’m reposting here the argument I made in a February 2019 post when Boyer was on the Primary Ballot (at the time fading, along with Ashburn). He’s since slipped to the Secondary Ballot, but I believe his case may be stronger than several who are on the current Primary Ballot. A Brief for Boyer. Earlier I posted a… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
7 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Bob, I believe the first transformative 3B may have been Harlond (Darkie) Clift (if you’re implying “power hitting” by transformative) who preceeded Boyer by about 20 years. Clift managed a .283 BA and .203 ISO during his peak six seasons (ages 23-28) covering 911 games. His OPS was 125 with a .403 rOBA and 128 Rbat+. He hit as many as 34 home runs in a season and averaged over 100 BB per season. What might be considered Boyer’s peak (ages 27-33) comes in at about 128, .395 and 134 for those same categories….with a .197 ISO On another note,… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
7 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Hi Paul. I guess I wasn’t clear. By “transformative” I was referring primarily to fielding. Boyer, along with brother Clete and Brooks R. came up about the same time, and all were outstanding fielders who were placed at third, rather than short or second, which was where the best fielders generally played. Ken stuck right away because of his hitting, while Brooks took years to build up his hitting and become a regular, while Clete never hit well. No shade on Clift, who was a fine player on awful teams, but he was an indifferent fielder, as was expected by… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
6 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Collins is a good example both ways, Doug. He is an exception to my generalization about third basemen, and so distant from the era Boyer played in that his unlikely to have been retained in collective memory by the general managers and players who viewed Pie Traynor and company (e.g., George Kell) as models of what a good third baseman looked like (a profile that could be filled, for example, by the young Harmon Killebrew).

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
8 days ago

After reading many earlier CoG discussions to refresh my memory, I’m going to vote for an all-old timer (sorta) ticket this round: Primary Ballot Lyons Coveleski Tiant Secondary Ballot Irvin Doby Boyer Looking at other older players we’ve redeemed for this year’s ballot (Kiner, Medwick, Terry) I don’t think they bring as much to the table and none actually seem to me to belong in the CoG. Drysdale is a contemporary of Boyer (and a few years earlier than Tiant), but after re-reading Doug’s argument for Tiant I’m persuaded Luis should have priority (although I do think Voomo’s brief point… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
8 days ago

Here’s an advocacy argument for Ted Lyons, Lyons’ W-L record of 260-230 seems more impressive for its volume than for its apparent quality until you take into account several factors. First, underwhelming as his .533 winning percentage is, it has to be assessed against the record of the only team he ever played for: the dismal inter-war period post-Black Sox White Sox. If you take away Lyons’ W-L record, the ChiSox over the years 1923-42 were a .445 team without him (I’ve excluded Lyons’ final season, 1946, for reasons explained below). So Lyons played his entire career on a team… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
6 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Great research, Doug. Your final sentence occurred to me while reading your first paragraph.

Tom
Tom
7 days ago

Allen
Lyons
Drysdale

secondary:
Utley
Irvin
Doby

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
7 days ago

Main:

Lyons
Ortiz
Coveleski

Secondary:
Williams
Medwick
Kiner

Doug: In my opinion the quiz is the most difficult one you have presented.

Doug
Doug
7 days ago

There are some tough ones. But, some low hanging fruit as well.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
7 days ago

This post advocates for Stan Coveleski. When I voted this round I noted that I was going to continue thinking about whether to rate Lyons or Coveleski first on the Primary Ballot. My advocacy case for Lyons rests heavily on the exceptional circumstance of a late-career second bloom, interrupted by three years of military service. The case for Coveleski is the reverse: the absence of an early-career record in the Majors because an MLB oversight had locked him into the Minors. Apart from a cup of coffee in 1912 with Connie Mack’s A’s, Coveleski’s Major League career begins exactly three… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
6 days ago

This comment advocates for Monte Irvin and reproduces a (slightly edited) post from last year’s voting, an argument that built on remarks about Irvin that nsb had made earlier. Among my edits, I am grabbing the final paragraph and moving it here: Anecdotal accounts stress the perception that Irvin was a Negro League superstar, so I think the following analysis likely far undervalues Irvin. Cool Papa Bell’s assessment was, “Most of the black ballplayers thought Monte Irvin should have been the first black in the major leagues. Monte was our best young ballplayer at the time. He could hit that long ball,… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
6 days ago

Bob Eno Wants Advocacy Well, here goes, but with a disclaimer: I’m lukewarm at best about the statistics available at Baseball Reference for Negro League play. Given that proviso, however, there’s also Thoreau’s reminder that “Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk,” a negative take on overwhelming circumstances, true, but the reasoning applies to positive data as well. Monte Irvin: Before he lost three prime years to WW II, Irvin played four seasons of organized ball. He hit .258 in the NNL as a rookie in 1939, then lead the league in… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
6 days ago

Just learned that Mickey Lolich died on Wednesday. His 1971 season was his best according to WAR, but I remember 1968 most vividly: 17-9 for the pennant-bound Tigers (but a mere 0.9 WAR), playing second- or third-fiddle to 31-game winner Denny McClain, and then coming from nowhere to lead Detroit to a seven-game Series win with three complete games, allowing 5 runs in 27 innings, besting Bob Gibson in the finale of Gibson’s 1.12 ERA season. No one saw that coming from a guy who had compiled a record that translates to only 9.5 WAR during his initial six seasons.

Doug
Doug
6 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Lolich ranked second in the AL in WAR (behind Wilbur Wood, who also recently passed) for his 5-year peak from 1969 to 1973. Lolich’s 376 IP in 1971 are second most (by two outs) to Wood in the live ball era, and 24th in the modern era. His 1320 IP aged 30-33 are again second to Wood in the live ball era, and fourth in the modern era. And, Lolich’s four consecutive 300+ IP seasons are tied for second in the live ball era (with Perry, Jenkins, Wood, Drysdale and Hubbell) behind Robin Roberts’ six straight seasons. Lolich’s 1968 WS… Read more »

Last edited 6 days ago by Doug
no statistician but
no statistician but
4 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Actually, Lolich threw 3 shutouts in his last seven starts that season and lowered his ERA from 3.76 to in early August to 3.19 at season’s end. If no one saw it coming, they weren’t looking.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
4 days ago

Those three shutouts may seem like a leading indicator now, nsb, but at the time they would not have been read as much more than that Lolich had benefited from being relegated to the bullpen in early August (it was in the bullpen that he did most of his ERA lowering). Once Lolich regained his slot in the rotation on August 22, he was almost exclusively pitching against inferior teams. Two of his three shutouts were against California (a .414 team), one after a six-day rest, and the third, against a somewhat stronger Oakland team (.506), after a five-day rest,… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
4 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

(I originally posted my second comment as a reply to myself. I’ve replaced it with the one that’s to nsb.)

Last edited 4 days ago by Bob Eno
Bob Eno
Bob Eno
4 days ago

nsb, I realized some time after posting this comment that I’d initially begun it by saying that the type of detective work you did on Lolich is exactly the sort of research that makes HHS interesting, and that your conclusion was a perfectly valid challenge to my initial comment on Lolich. That paragraph got lost in my final edit.

I enjoyed checking into this and coming up with my response, and I’m prepared to learn that I’ve yet to correctly assess what was going on with Lolich at the close of the 1968 regular season.

Last edited 4 days ago by Bob Eno
no statistician but
no statistician but
3 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Not much to do with baseball, but— In the summer of 1968 was anyone paying much attention to what in retrospect seems like an extraordinary major league season? I wasn’t. Two assassinations, riots, protesters getting their heads bashed in by out of control cops, Vietnam. The resurrection of Richard Nixon, the demise of the Great Society. I spent August of that year having knee surgery for torn cartilage and recovering from it. Three hours on the operating table, four days in a hospital bed, a plaster cast from mid-thigh to just above the ankle that weighed approximately one ton. A… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
3 days ago

Sorry about that knee ordeal, nsb. I hope said knee has served you well in the 57+ years since. (Did you ask it for permission to reveal so much of its medical history to the throngs online here?) I was living in the Detroit area and the Tigers were more or less intensifying the sense of insanity. I have a vivid memory of retreating down an alley when police dogs began moving in on our night street protest, but we probably went back to the apartment of someone with a black-and-white TV to watch a game. I wonder if I’ve… Read more »

Doug
Doug
2 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Quite the story. Here’s what A-I came back with concerning your description of your instructor. Based on the description of a middle-aged, leather-jacket-wearing, motorcycle-riding veteran college instructor in 1968, this archetype represents a blend of mid-century military experience, postwar motorcycle culture, and academic life. The Look & Gear: The individual likely wore a heavy, black steerhide leather jacket, such as the classic Schott NYC Perfecto (specifically models like the 618 or earlier 1950s/60s versions). These jackets were characterized by asymmetrical front zippers, snap-down lapels, and belted waists, acting as protective gear against road rash. 1968 Context: In 1968, this style was transitioning from the… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
1 day ago
Reply to  Doug

Pretty interesting, Doug. AI simply reformulates the info you gave it, adding fashion notes. Crump was the son of the founder of “Boy’s Life” magazine — an Eagle Scout type — and a devoted family man. A sign he added to his office door read “Dr. Kindly” (didn’t do any good — students were all terrified of him, which he could never figure out since he was actually terrified of them), and he was a leading authority on Chinese theater of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. (A case of “book/cover”, you know the rest, but AI doesn’t.)

Doug
Doug
2 days ago

What do I remember about 1968? One thing with a connection to today is Rowan and Martin’s Laugh-In. It debuted the same week as the Tet Offensive and was similarly shocking (in its own way). I mean there had never been a TV program like this before. It almost certainly was inspiration for Saturday Night (Live) that debuted two years after Laugh-In folded and is still with us now, 50 years (and counting) later.

Last edited 2 days ago by Doug
Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
2 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

It’s fun to hear all your recollections of 1968. My memories of that time are a bit fuzzy (and not due to recreational drug use). With the aid of four teeth, I was starting to work on solid food, began standing with support, and was contemplating whether lowering the mound height would be the best adjustment for MLB to restore balance in response to the historic ‘Year of the Pitcher’.

One of the many things I appreciate about HHS is learning so much from people smarter and more experienced than me. Thank you for that!

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
1 day ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Scary, your references to four teeth, working when it comes to solid food, and standing with support all seem pretty relevant at my age now.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
1 day ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

That made me laugh, Bob! I find myself trending in the same direction.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
6 days ago

This is an advocacy post for Larry Doby, substantially identical to the one I posted during our last CoG Redemption Round, with this paragraph added. The argument below is basically that Doby is worthy of CoG consideration because of factors the lie beyond both his MLB stats and the combination of those stats with his Negro League stats. My case is that if we view Doby’s record in context of the times — specifically, in terms of the way segregation delayed his commitment to a career in baseball — we can see him as a borderline CoG candidate who would,… Read more »

Doug
Doug
2 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Doby’s case is interesting. While his career WAR is a bit light for the COG, he had four seasons in which he finished in the top 5 for WAR. That really stands out in comparison to the other 9 center-fielders in the 50-59 WAR range who had a total of only 5 such seasons (2 for Puckett, 1 for Lynn, Pinson and Cedeno, and none for Wynn, Lemon, Averill, Damon and Carey). That propensity to be among the league leaders is reflected in his Black Ink (just below Avg HoFer) and Grey Ink (just above Avg HoFer) scores, and in… Read more »

Doug
Doug
6 days ago

Since he was so bedeviled by injuries, I’d like to say that, with some allowances, there is a COG case for Adam Wainwright. But, probably not. Wainwright had 5 seasons (2008, ’11, ’15, ’17 and ’18) where he lost significant time to injuries. He totaled 4 WAR in those 5 seasons, but averaged 3.6 WAR over his ten qualified seasons. Substituting five 3.6 WAR seasons for the 5 seasons impacted by injury raises Wainwright’s pWAR to 55. Ignoring his final season’s -1.9 WAR when the Cardinals kept sending him out there to allow him to get to 200 wins brings… Read more »

Last edited 6 days ago by Doug
Bob Eno
Bob Eno
5 days ago
Reply to  Doug

I was looking at Wainwright too, about a week ago. Here’s how I view his case in principle: I don’t think CoG assessments should compensate injuries with speculative WAR adjustments the way we do with military service, segregation, or, as in Coveleski’s case, third-party contracts that excluded MLB play — all factors that are outside issues of physical participation on the field. Injuries, either through normal on-field mishaps or chronic conditions, are part of the game, and player value depends, in part, on how subject they are to them. (Pete Reiser was one of the greatest talents to appear on… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
5 days ago

I don’t usually do quizzes (it’s not snobbery; I’m terrible at them), but I happened to notice #8 and thought of Berra in ’60. I’m probably missing something . . .

Doug
Doug
4 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Berra played left field in game 7 of the 1960 series, the vantage point from which he forlornly watched Mazeroski’s shot clear the LF fence at Forbes Field.

A clue is that the player you are looking for is the only catcher to homer in the first two games of an LCS.

Last edited 4 days ago by Doug
Bob Eno
Bob Eno
4 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Ah. Of course. I was never able to get used to seeing Berra in left field. Berra not only was a catcher, he was the personification of Catcher.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
4 days ago

#1 – Joe Morgan and Pete Rose.

Doug
Doug
2 days ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Morgan, in 8 seasons as a Red, and Rose, in 19 seasons, both hit 152 HR for Cincy.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
4 days ago

#5 – 2003 White Sox (Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez).

Doug
Doug
2 days ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

You’re on a roll, Scary.

That 2003 team featured four players with 3 WAR and 50 XBH, tied with the 1998 and 2006 Sox teams for the most in the expansion era. The franchise record is 5 players, by the 1937 team, including all three outfielders.

Last edited 2 days ago by Doug
Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
2 days ago
Reply to  Doug

I have to admit, when I think of solid, well-balanced offenses, the ‘37 White Sox are not the first team to come to mind. But they seem to have been a pretty good team and only finished three games out of 2nd place.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
2 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Too many quiz questions went unsolved last round, Doug, and I appreciate the work you put into creating these quizzes. So:

#11 – Mel Queen, 1951 (which seems to be his only qualifying season). While it’s surprising to see a league leader in SO/9 with a career -2.1 WAR, his career BB/9 matching his SO/9 likely played a big factor.

#6 – Feeling like I overlooked something, but 1941 (Dodgers and Yankees) is the most recent season I could find. After uncovering five occurrences in the ‘20s (1920, 21, 24, 25, and 27), I stopped searching.

Last edited 2 days ago by Doug
Andy
Andy
4 days ago

Primary:
Ted Lyons
Don Drysdale
Reggie Smith

Secondary:
Ken Boyer
Chase Utley
Jim Edmonds

no statistician but
no statistician but
2 days ago

Vote

Coveleski
Smith
Lyons

Irvin
Doby
Terry

Again, I only really think Coveleski and Irvin are deserving.

Tom
Tom
16 hours ago

#10 George Davis.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
4 hours ago

Doug, any chance #16 is Tim Lincecum?

I was ready to ask you about Christy Mathewson, who had 2.25 WAR per 100 IP in his age 19-20 seasons, but figured I overlooked something. Sure enough: 46 games, but only 39 starts.