78 thoughts on “Unusual recipe for 200 wins”

1. BK March 1, 2012 at 12:33 am

   Pappas also hit 20 HR in his career – quite impressive. In 1962, 4 of his 6 hits for the season were HR’s. Yet he only batted .123 for his career.

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   1. birtelcom March 1, 2012 at 7:49 am

      Most Homers By a Pitcher in the Expansion Era (1961-2011):
      1. Earl Wilson 33
      2. Bob Gibson 24
      3. Carlos Zambrano 23
      4. Milt Pappas 18
      T5. Mike Hampton and Jim Kaat 16

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   2. Voomo Zanzibar March 1, 2012 at 12:13 pm

      Has anyone else ever hit four homers in a season while batting less than .087?

      20 career homers with an ops+ of -3.
      K’d in 43% of PA.

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      1. Doug March 1, 2012 at 12:46 pm

         Voomo,

         Your surmise is correct.

         Clem Labine and Mickey Tettleton(!) had 3 HR with BA under .100. Labine got his 3 HR in only 31 AB, compared to 69 when Pappas had his 4 HR.

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      2. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 1:06 pm

         I like the fact that Pappas only had 7 times on base that year — a walk, 2 singles, a double and 4 HRs. No one else has ever hit 4+ HRs with HR>TOB.

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         1. Doug March 1, 2012 at 2:39 pm

            Not more HR than other TOB, but Zambrano had 6 HR and an equal number of other TOB in 2006.

            Looking at the list HR < 2 * Hits, I see Keith McDonald with his much remarked on 3 hits aand 3 HR in 2000. Much remarked on because they were also the only hits of his career. But, for a single season feat, Jorge Sosa (2006), Clem Labine (1955) and Ed Sanicki (1949) have also done the same thing.

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            1. Doug March 1, 2012 at 2:41 pm

               Above should have read “Looking at the list Hits < 2 * HR".
      3. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 1:25 pm

         Pappas was the first pitcher in the live-ball era to hit 2 HRs and pitch a shutout (Aug. 27, 1961). He connected twice off Pedro Ramos, while blanking the Twins on 2 hits with 11 Ks in a 3-0 win.

         The feat has been matched 3 times since then. The next to do it was Ramos himself, against the Orioles, on May 30, 1962. Ramos hit a solo shot and a granny, both off Chuck Estrada.

         The others both came in 1971 — Rick Wise’s no-hitter against the Reds, and Sonny Siebert’s 3-hitter against Baltimore.

         Pappas had the highest Game Score at 91.

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         1. Ed March 1, 2012 at 2:53 pm

            John – Pappas talks about the 2-HR shut out in the second link under comment #10. Basically Pappas and Ramos agreed before the game to throw each other only fastballs. After the first homerun, Ramos reneged on the agreement and started throwing curves. Unfortunately, he hung one and Pappas hit it out for his second home run of the game.

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2. Doug March 1, 2012 at 12:47 am

   Pappas also formed one half of the youngest battery ever. On Sep 11, 1957, he and catcher Frank Zupo hooked up against the As. Their combined age: 36 years, 136 days.

   http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL195709111.shtml

   This same game also featured Zupo catching Dizzy Trout in Trout`s final career appearance (he faced 4 batters and gave up 2 singles, a double and a triple). This was one of only a handful of times that a teenage catcher has caught a forty-something pitcher.

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   1. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 12:59 am

      Wow — Zupo was only 17, and he got his first MLB hit in that very game.

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      1. Doug March 1, 2012 at 1:12 am

         Actually, it was his first MLB run in that game. Zupo’s first hit came a month earlier against Bob Grim and the Yankees.

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      2. Doug March 1, 2012 at 12:18 pm

         Looking at the Yankees game when Zupo had his first hit, he caught another 18 year-old that day, Jerry Walker. The combined age of that battery was 36 years, 162 days, the youngest ever until broken by the Pappas-Zupo tandem exactly one month later.

         http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BAL/BAL195708110.shtml

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3. Wine Curmudgeon March 1, 2012 at 7:16 am

   To this day, Pappas insists that he did strike out Stahl, and that the ump blew the call. It’s just another bit of Cubs lore we have to live with.

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4. Ed March 1, 2012 at 7:26 am

   Wow, an entire post on Milt Pappas and no mention of him being traded for Frank Robinson! Anyway, I was just looking at the trade. It wasn’t straight up…the Orioles included Dick Simpson and Jack Baldschun. Interestingly, neither Simpson nor Baldschun played a single game for the Orioles organization. Simpson was acquired from the Angles on Dec. 2, 1965 and a week later included in the Robinson trade. Baldschun spent even less time with the Orioles organization. He was acquired from the Phillies on December 6th.

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   1. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 10:10 am

      “an entire post on Milt Pappas and no mention of him being traded for Frank Robinson!”

      Wait — you say the Reds traded Robinson for Pappas? What on earth were they thinking?!? That’s the worst trade in the history of commerce!!! 🙂

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      1. Lawrence Azrin March 1, 2012 at 11:39 am

         “…but Frank Robinson was an “old” 30!!”* Plus, he had several off-field incidents which reflected poorly on the Reds organization, he was the Reds highest-paid player, and they really needed more pitching. I’m sure it made sense to the Reds at the time. However…

         WAR confirms the lopsidedness of the trade:
         -Robinson: 33.4 WAR over 6 years
         -Pappas: 6.2 WAR over 2 1/2 years

         To do a complete analysis you’d also need to include the players these two were later traded for. Pappas (+ others) got Clay Carroll, Tony Cloninger and Woody Woodward from the Braves in mid-1968. Robinson (+ Richert) got Doyle Alexander, Bob O’Brien, Sergio Robles and Royle Stillman from the Dodgers before 1972.

         Sorry, I’m not up that, plus Robinson was so awesome in his six years as an Oriole that it wouldn’t change much.

         * quote from Reds GM Bill DeWitt at the time of the time

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         1. Luis Gomez March 1, 2012 at 11:54 am

            Sergio “Kaliman” Robles. Greatest catcher in Mexican League history.

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            1. Lawrence Azrin March 1, 2012 at 12:22 pm

               And a lot of good that did the Orioles: 10 games/ 21 PA/2 hits/ no runs or RBI over two years…
         2. Voomo Zanzibar March 1, 2012 at 12:02 pm

            Here’s an analysis trying to make the case that it wasn’t a completely illogical trade. Sets the scene well, but I’m not buying it. Forget sabernumbers, just going by the old school numbers, The Judge had 1009 ribbys in his 20’s!

            http://blog.deanscards.com/2010/08/frank-robinson-for-milt-pappas-trade.html

            It’s not mentioned directly in that article, but I’ve read that his getting busted with a concealed pistol was a big part of the heave-ho from Cincy. His being an “old 30” was a polite way of saying “too black.”

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            1. Voomo Zanzibar March 1, 2012 at 12:06 pm

               This article makes a clearer case for it, taking the long view of how it gave the Reds flexibility, leading to their rise to power five years later. (I’m still not buying it):

               http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/cin/hof/article.jsp?ymd=20101206&content_id=16263880&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

               ______________________________________

               Oh, and someone should spell out Pappas’ full name:

               Miltiades Stergios Papastergios
            2. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 12:37 pm

               I agree with your conclusion.

               However, even without reading the articles, it’s easy enough to make a case with old-school numbers that Robinson was in decline, and that the trade made sense for the Reds from various angles.

               Robinson’s yearly averages:

               Age 20-26: .309 BA, 34 HRs, 33 doubles, 101 RBI, 107 Runs.
               Age 27-29: .289 BA, 28 HRs, 30 doubles, 100 RBI, 97 Runs.

               Also, in ’65 he had 100 Ks for the first time ever. He had averaged 66 Ks over the previous 5 years.

               Meanwhile, Pappas looked to be on the rise. 1965 was his 6th qualifying year, and the 5th in which he ranked in the AL top 10 in ERA.

               Cincinnati needed pitching (they were next-to-last in ERA in ’65) more than they needed offense (1st).

               They still had OFs Vada Pinson (5.0 WAR in ’65, age 26) and Tommy Harper (3.2, 24). They wanted to get Deron Johnson (NL-best 130 RBI and 4th in MVP vote) off of third base.

               They also got back Dick Simpson, age 22 and coming off an outstanding year at AAA — 7th in OPS and one of the 7 youngest players in the league. And Jack Baldschun had been a quality reliever for 4 years before an off year in ’65.

               I still think DeWitt undervalued Robinson — but as Springsteen once sang, “It was more than all this / that put that gun in my hand.”
            3. Lawrence Azrin March 1, 2012 at 12:41 pm

               I must admit that was one of several articles I used for my research in #13 above. I’m not buying it, athough if the Redlegs had traded Pinson instead of Robinson, it would’ve been much more of an even deal. Pinson was a decent player from 1966-1968, but not the star he was from 1959-1965.
            4. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 12:51 pm

               Another thing DeWitt may have overlooked was that the NL was just a better league than the AL at that time. So Robinson was going to see weaker competition than he was used to, and Pappas would have it tougher.

               I was just looking at the box score for the ’65 All-Star Game, which Pappas started. We all know how loaded the NL was in those days, but looking at an All-Star lineup really brings it home.

               In the first inning, Pappas faced Willie Mays (HR), Hank Aaron, Willie Stargell (single), Dick Allen, Joe Torre (HR), Ernie Banks, Pete Rose and Maury Wills. On the bench were Robinson, Santo, Billy Williams and Roberto Clemente.

               Thirteen future HOFers appeared in that game for the NL (if we count Rose). The AL had 3.
         3. bstar March 1, 2012 at 4:52 pm

            Lawrence,
            What were the other off-the-field incidents you are referring to? I have never read about the why part of this trade before.

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            1. Lawrence Azrin March 1, 2012 at 5:09 pm

               #15/ Voomo Zanzibar covered it above. For more detail, here’s an excerpt from the 6/17/63 issue of SI:

               “… a few weeks before spring training in 1961, Robinson was arrested in Cincinnati for carrying a concealed weapon, charged with pulling a gun during an argument with a short-order cook in a sandwich shop. He had the gun, he explained, because he often carried large sums of “walking-around money,” and the area in which he usually parked his car was extremely dark. Robinson pleaded guilty and was let off with nothing more than a $250 fine.”

               There may have been another incident, which I cannot recall, but it’s more likely just the whole “too black” perception, which Voomo also mentioned.
   2. Tmckelv March 1, 2012 at 3:32 pm

      Regarding the trade: Does anyone think that the Robinson trade has hurt Pappas’ overall perception? I feel that players involved in PERCEIVED “bad” trades, are thought of as lesser players than they actually were. Another example is Jim Fregosi.

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      1. Lawrence Azrin March 1, 2012 at 4:11 pm

         From the School Of Decieving Stats:
         Pappas’ career W-L record is almost the same as Don Drysdales’: 209-164 versus 209-166. Almost all of Drysdales’ other stats are clearly better, though: 121 ERA+ vs 110 ERA+, to start. His WAR is about 20 higher than Pappas.

         As for your question, I think it hurt Pappas a little, Fregosi not really. Fregosi was already respected before the trade: MVP votes in 8 years, 6 AS games, a GG. His career was already going into decline before the trade to the Mets.

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         1. Hartvig March 1, 2012 at 4:35 pm

            Lawrence- I’m not as certain that Fergosi’s image didn’t maybe take at least a bit of a hit after the trade. Even through at the time of his retirement he was probably one of the 10 best shortstops of all time (or at least very close to it) he received virtually no support for the HOF at the time of his retirement. I’m sure that misconceptions about playing in the second dead ball era were probably a larger factor but I’m guessing that if you have taken a poll in 1970 asking who the best American League shortstop was in the ’60’s he would have at least polled a pretty close second to Luis Aparicio if not beating him outright (he at least did better in MVP voting during the ’60’s than Aparicio) and yet by 1984, Fergosi’s only year on the ballot, he managed only 4 votes as opposed to 341 for Aparicio.

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            1. Lawrence Azrin March 1, 2012 at 5:27 pm

               Hartvig,

               I think it’s more his decline after 1970 at the shockingly young age of 28. Up to then he was building up decent HOF credentials. It’s a pretty clear dividing point – if you look at his Leaderboards, he’s all over the place till 1970, then has exactly one mention after (1971, errors). He never played 100 games or had 300 AB after age 30, so even though he played till 36, he didn’t quite have the career totals.

               I think it’s more the career length (and most of his best years being in the 2nd deadball era) than the trade for Ryan that hurt his HOF chances.
            2. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 5:28 pm

               Fregosi’s productive years were just ending when I started following the game, so I find it too difficult to determine what his reputation was during his prime and what factors led to his current level of underappreciation.

               On the one hand, outside of a saber-friendly forum, I don’t recall hearing anything about Fregosi’s defense that would correspond to his dWAR ratings for 1964-70. On the other hand, he did win a Gold Glove in 1967.

               On the one hand, even though his WAR is easily the best of any SS in the ’60s (and ranks 8th among all players for the years 1963-70), he’s rarely mentioned at all in the mainstream media. On the other hand, he was a 6-time All Star in that span and got MVP votes every year.

               My gut sense is that, outside of the NYC area, Fregosi-for-Ryan isn’t as well known as Pappas-for-Robinson or Broglio-for-Brock, and that Fregosi’s lowered standing today is mainly due to (as you noted) the fact that his raw numbers look ordinary from our vantage point.

               I’d add that his unimpressive managerial career may be a small part of it. But maybe I’m the one who’s out of step here, as I’d totally forgotten that Fregosi ran the ’93 Phils and the ’79 Angels.
            3. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 5:55 pm

               From age 21-28, Fregosi totaled 43.0 bWAR (and 49.1 fWAR, though I’ll stick with bWAR the rest of the way).

               The 43.0 bWAR ranked 39th in modern history (1893-) for that age range.

               There are 40 HOF-eligible players who had at least 40 bWAR from age 21-28. Only 3 haven’t made the HOF: Barry Bonds, Cesar Cedeno, and Jim Fregosi.

               Out of 43 now retired players who had 40+ WAR from 21-28, only 3 collected less than 11.7 WAR over the rest of their careers: Cesar Cedeno had 8.1, Fregosi 2.6, and John McGraw 1.5 (he only played 79 games after age 28). The median for this group is 37.7; more than 1/3 of them added at least 50 WAR from age 29 onward.

               Luis Aparacio is the only HOF shortstop who played even one game during the entire decade of the ’60s. The Hall of Weighted WAR, run by our friend Adam Darowski, has no SS who played a single game from 1959-1973.
            4. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 6:08 pm

               On the subject of Fregosi-for-Ryan:

               In 1970, Fregosi ranked #3 in bWAR among all MLB players, including pitchers, with 7.7 bWAR. That capped an 8-year run of 4.1, 8.1, 4.5, 5.2, 5.0, 3.2, 5.2 and 7.7 WAR — all good to excellent years.

               In ’71 he had his first bad year, suffering some nagging injuries and one month-long absence. He was 29.

               If you looked him at that snapshot moment in time, would you see a player in decline, or a once-in-a-generation SS having a hiccup?

               Nolan Ryan at that moment was 24 years old with 510 MLB innings and a 98 ERA+. He had 2 shutouts, both in 1970; one of those was his only Game Score of 90+ to date.

               Later on I’ll try to run a search on pitchers similar to Ryan through age 24. I’m guessing that not many of them went to the HOF.
            5. Hartvig March 1, 2012 at 6:27 pm

               And I agree that his early, rapid decline was probably the biggest factor in his lack of HOF support. And I also agree that the Brock & Robinson trades are bigger deals in my memory as well- although it’s also true that I followed baseball much more closely in the ’60’s than I did in the ’70’s.

               Truth is, I guess, that if the trade did or did not effect peoples perception of him it was at most a minor contributing factor as to why he is still underrated to this day.

               When I was writing this I did a Google search of “top shortstops of the 1960’s” and stumbled across an article that some guy had written in 2009 that ranked Fergosi as the 9th best major league shortstop, behind guys like Zoilo Versalles and Ernie Banks (who last played shortstop full time in 1960 and at all in ’61.
            6. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 6:31 pm

               Ryan’s cohort: Through age 24, Nolan Ryan had 510 IP and a 98 ERA+. I looked at all SPs thru age 24 with 300 to 700 IP and ERA+ from 93-103.

               I chose the period 1920-85 — i.e., starting with the live-ball era, and ending in time for any such pitchers to have finished their career and become HOF-eligible.

               There were 49 pitchers who met the criteria. Ryan is the only one to:
               – make the HOF;
               – win more than 185 games in his career (Mike Torrez won 185); or
               – amass more than 47.1 bWAR in his career (Mark Langston had 47.1).

               The median career WAR for this group was 8.5 (Jim Gott). Their median career wins was 66. The 49 pitchers combined produced seven 20-win seasons — 2 by Ryan, 2 by Frank Viola, 1 each by Mark Gubicza, Mike Torrez and Ron Bryant.

               P.S. This is total speculation, but — I wonder if Ryan, as Texan as you can be, was ever happy in NYC, especially on a team fronted by such polished pitchers as Seaver and Koosman.
            7. Voomo Zanzibar March 1, 2012 at 8:51 pm

               Fregosi segued from player to manager in the same year – with different teams.

               And it appears that it happened on the same day.
               He played his last game on May 31st, drawing a walk in his final PA in Philly….

               Dave Garcia managed the first 45 games for the Angels…

               The Angels’ 46th game was on May 31st.
               They lost 17-2.
               Was Fegosi holding the scorecard?
            8. Doug March 1, 2012 at 9:03 pm

               Ryan had kind of a rough age 24 season, his first year as a mostly regular rotation starter (26 starts that year, previous high 19). Going with a comp group through age 23 (258-458 IP, 99-109 ERA+), there are a couple of HOFers, namely Marichal and Gossage.

               48 pitchers in group. Most wins after Ryan and Marichal – Billy Pierce 211, Claude Osteen 196, Mike Torrez 185. Median career wins of 61. Median career ERA+ of 100. Other notables in group: Guy Bush, Johnny Podres, Mark Gubicza, Johnny Antonelli, Bruce Kison.
5. Ed March 1, 2012 at 8:06 am

   Actually it sounds like Pappas thinks Froemming should have just given it to him since he was so close. Pappas was actually ahead 1-2 in the count but threw three straight balls. You can see live video footage of the last three outs here. The first out of the 9th inning is interesting as one of the outfielders slips and falls and Billy Williams comes over to make the catch. Unfortunately, the camera angle of the last 3 balls is horrible so there’s no way to tell if the ump got the calls right or not.

   http://mediaburn.org/Video-Preview.128.0.html?uid=967

   Here’s video footage with interviews with Pappas and Froemming. The camera angle is still horrible though (Costas says Pappas was ahead 0-2 but the live footage above shows the second pitch was a ball).

   http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11681195

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   1. Ed March 1, 2012 at 9:29 am

      My comment was obviously a response to Wine Curmudgeon. Anyway, here’s a great article on the missed perfect game with input from Pappas, Froemming, Stahl and Hundley (the catcher).

      http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=3019597

      And here’s a great interview with Pappas re: his life in baseball. The story about how he helped Maris get to 61 home runs is particularly interesting. The Ted Williams anecdote is also priceless.

      http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3819

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      1. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 10:28 am

         Thanks for those links, Ed.

         After I first read about Pappas’s outspoken resentment over Froemming not donating that 3rd strike, I checked out his splits by ump (maybe the first time I’ve ever used that feature). Froemming only called 2 other games of his (as far as B-R knows), one the year before and one the year after.

         Pappas had very good control. The year after the no-hitter, he walked 3 or more in just 5 of his 29 starts, with two 5-walk games; one of those was the only game of his that Froemming called after their run-in.

         Not that it means anything….

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6. Dr. Doom March 1, 2012 at 8:35 am

   JA, I love this post! Normally, the only way we get a post so focused on one player is when it’s of the HOF variety, or maybe when someone retires. I’m not saying I would like a post like this every day, but it’s a really cool change of pace. Kudos to you for a great idea, and stellar execution.

   Also, any post mentioning Brad Radke is bound to make me happy, so this post pretty much has it all.

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7. T-Bone March 1, 2012 at 12:55 pm

   Pappas also had this strange happening after Baseball.

   http://articles.latimes.com/1987-08-09/sports/sp-438_1_milt-pappas

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   1. Howard March 1, 2012 at 5:35 pm

      Did I read that right? His “current fiance” moved in with him nine months after his wife disappeared? That is mighty fishy to me.

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8. Lawrence Azrin March 1, 2012 at 2:01 pm

   Pappas and the HOF – I vaguely recall a story that in late 1978, he was left off the 1979 HOF ballot. Pappas protested that he should be listed on the ballot. He got five votes, more than 21 of the 54 players listed on the 1979 ballot. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

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   1. Hartvig March 1, 2012 at 3:31 pm

      I does to me as well. Don’t remember any details or anything however.

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   2. Howard March 1, 2012 at 5:37 pm

      Yes. In fact at the time he compared his own career numbers to those of Don Drysdale the similarity of which another poster mentioned earlier.

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      1. Lawrence Azrin March 1, 2012 at 6:23 pm

         Howard,

         It was ME! – see my post above/#36.

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         1. Howard March 2, 2012 at 7:44 pm

            Sorry Lawrence. I have to admit that I was too lazy to scroll back up to your comment : )

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9. JDV March 1, 2012 at 3:11 pm

   I really enjoyed this post as well…great information and great links. Although I’m a life-long Oriole fan, my first memory of Pappas was his 1969 Topps card with the Braves, and then mostly as a Cub. Thanks to all.

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10. Doug March 1, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    John remarked that Pappas had won games on both his 20th and 21st birthdays.

    The most times a pitcher has won a game on his birthday? 5 times by Bobo Newsom. Jerry Reuss and Tim Wakefield each did it 4 times.

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11. Tmckelv March 1, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    ” (“You might not have an optimal lineup if … your best chance to avoid the no-hitter is to PH for your leadoff man with a guy who bats from the same side.”) ”

    And especially when that pinch hitter is Gary Jestadt!!!!

    For some reason, I love the early 1970’s San Diego Padres teams. Nate Colbert, Clarence Gaston, Clay Kirby, etc. I have always liked Enzo Hernandez. When I was a kid, I used to look at the back of his baseball cards and wonder why he had so many ABs for someone that was not good.

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12. Library Dave March 1, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    Sorry to go off topic: can someone write a separate post that shows just how ridiculous Yadier Molina’s new contract is?

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    1. John Autin Post authorMarch 1, 2012 at 8:12 pm

       That was my initial reaction, but now I’m not sure. The extension covers his age 30-34 seasons, which seems pretty old for a catcher. But there have been 18 catchers who amassed at least 15 bWAR in that span, led by Posada’s 22.8. And 16 have caught least 600 games in that span.

       Or maybe it’s just that the Mets fan in me is still traumatized from his game-winning HR in the 2006 NLCS….

       (FWIW, here’s David Schoenfield’s take.)

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    2. bstar March 1, 2012 at 8:14 pm

       I don’t think it’s a ridiculous contract. He’s far and away the best defensive catcher in baseball, and Fangraphs just added a wild pitch-blocking WAR component to their catcher defensive WAR, based on the really fantastic research done by Bojan Koprivica. Here’s the link to this groundbreaking article on The Hardball Times:

       http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/another-one-bites-the-dust/

       To the surprise of no one, Yadier will (or now has) benefited the most from this new metric. Surprisingly, since 2008, Brian McCann finished second behind Molina in the pitch-blocking category, giving a much-needed positive boost to his defensive abilities. Word is McCann also scored very high on the cutting-edge pitch framing studies also.

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13. Ed March 1, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    Ultimately I suppose it depends on how well he hits. His OPS+ and oWAR last year were both better than anything he’s done previously.

    Bstar – In the chart labeled, “Best 15 Catchers Blocking Pitches, 2008-2011”, Molina is 2nd behind Quintero (McCann finished fourth). Were you looking at something else when you said McCann was 2nd behind Molina?

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14. bstar March 1, 2012 at 10:03 pm

    I was looking at the link provided by Jeff Appelmann in his 2/29 article at Fangraphs that lists the catchers who’ve benefited the most from this new metric. It lists Molina first and McCann second. They worked with the author of the article in implementing this stat, so I’m surprised there is a discrepancy here. Are your numbers from the actual article by Koprivica? Anyway, here’s the link:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2011&month=0&season1=2008&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&players=0&sort=15,d

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    1. bstar March 2, 2012 at 7:31 pm

       Ed, you were looking at a table that was a rate stat, based on 120 games/year. That’s why Wieters and Quintero were ahead of McCann. My table from Fangraphs lists cumulative effect from 2008 and on, so that’s why Molina and McCann were first and second, because they’ve caught way more games than Wieters or Quintero.

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       1. Ed March 2, 2012 at 9:25 pm

          Gotcha. Yes, I was looking at the Hardball Times link.

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15. e pluribus munu March 1, 2012 at 10:59 pm

    I’m with Dr. Doom – this is a very neat post. Having followed Pappas since his start, I remember being very dismayed as he approached 200 wins. Post-1900 200-game winners were still a relatively select group of almost uniformly famous work horse pitchers (19th century statistics were still generally ignored, despite MacMillan having been out a few years), and Pappas seemed to diminish its status. How had this happened? Nothing about him stood out except his role in the Robinson trade. After all, he only achieved even a 17-win season at the tail end of his career. I found it as hard to believe that Pappas’s numbers added up to 200 as to believe that Wes Ferrell’s didn’t.

    And then came all that self-puffery about being a Hall-worthy second Drysdale that earlier posts mentioned. Those and Pappas’s late comments on Froemming fit well with the unflattering portrait of him I recall from Leo Durocher’s autobiography – though being disliked by Durocher could be taken as a badge of honor. As I recall, two of the pitchers Durocher was hardest on were Pappas and Jerry Reuss, and I believe Reuss was the next to slide into the 200 club without a 20-win season.

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16. Howard March 2, 2012 at 8:01 pm

    In defense (sort of) of the Pappas/Robinson trade: over the first half of the 1965 season Pappas was the best pitcher in the American League, even better than Sam McDowell who had a fantastic season. Near the end of July Pappas was 10-3 with an ERA below 1.70. Of course he finished poorly but great first halves tend to stick out in people’s minds and when a young pitcher does it it gives hope that he can do it for a whole season. A case in point is Michael Pineda. He had an ERA over 5.00 in the second half after an excellent first half yet he is expected by many to be the second best starter on the Yankees.

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    1. Dr. Doom March 2, 2012 at 8:03 pm

       … perhaps saying more about the Yankee rotation than about Pineda. 🙂

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17. birtelcom March 2, 2012 at 10:23 pm

    Pappas was the all-time strikeout king for the Browns/Orioles franchise when he was traded for Robinson. Jack Powell (884 Ks for the Browns) had been the franchise leader in strikeouts since all the way back in 1909, until Pappas passed him in 1965 (July 9, 1965 if I have it figured correctly). Dave McNally passed him in 1970, but Pappas is still 6th on the franchise career strikeout list.

    Pappas had 944 Ks after 1965, his age 26 season. As of 1965, only 5 other American League pitchers had reached that many Ks by their age 26 season: Walter Johnson, Bob Feller, Smokey Joe Wood, Hal Newhouser and Chief Bender.

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    1. John Autin Post authorMarch 2, 2012 at 11:11 pm

       Wow, that’s a real Urban Shocker, birtelcom! Nice find.

       The ’64 Orioles had 3 of the franchise’s top 9 in Ks to that point — Pappas (817), Steve Barber (649) and Chuck Estrada (517).

       I hadn’t quite realized this before, but to this day there have only been 7 seasons of 200 Ks by a Browns/O’s pitcher, 3 of them by Mussina. Of all the 20-game winners they had in the ’60s-’80s, only McNally ever reached 200 (202 in ’68). Palmer’s high was 199. Cueller had 203 with Houston in ’67, but his Oriole high was 190. Dobson, Torrez, Garland, Flanagan, Stone, Boddicker – nary a 200-K season.

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       1. Ed March 2, 2012 at 11:40 pm

          Scott McGregor also won 20 games in that period and also failed to reach 200 Ks. In fact, he had 7 seasons of 30+ starts with the O’s and only topped 100 K’s once.

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       2. Doug March 4, 2012 at 6:35 pm

          200 K Seasons by Franchise, Since 1901

          AL
          1. Senators/Twins 27
          2. Americans/Red Sox 25
          3. Tigers, Indians 22
          5. Angels 20
          6. Mariners 16
          7. Highlanders/Yankees 15
          8. White Sox 14
          9. Athletics 13
          10. Browns/Orioles, Blue Jays, Senators/Rangers 7
          13. Royals 4
          14. Devil Rays/Rays 3
          15. Brewers 2

          NL
          1. Superbas/Robins/Dodgers 43
          2. Giants 26
          3. Phillies 24
          4. Colt .45s/Astros, Mets 23
          6. Orphans/Cubs 17
          7. Cardinals 16
          8. Reds 15
          9. Beaneaters/Braves 13
          10. Diamondbacks 9
          11. Expos/Nationals 8
          12. Brewers 6
          13. Marlins, Padres, Pirates 5
          16. Rockies 2

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          1. bstar March 4, 2012 at 6:56 pm

             That Braves number seems really low; then I checked and realized Warren Spahn, Tom Glavine, and Greg Maddux combined had only one 200 K season (Maddux in 1998). There were lots of near misses by Maddux; he had seasons of 199, 198, and 197 K also. Smoltz had five in his career, including near misses of 197 and 193. Must have been a lot of Beaneaters on the list.

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             1. Doug March 4, 2012 at 7:06 pm

                It was Smoltz with 5, Niekro with 3, and one each for Maddux, Vazquez, Millwood, Cloninger and Vic Willis.

                Warren Spahn’s best was 191 in 1950, his second of 4 straight league-leading seasons.
             2. bstar March 4, 2012 at 7:29 pm

                Tommy Hanson(9.8 K/9) and Brandon Beachy(10.7 K/9) look like good candidates to join this list at some point, although for some reason a lot of people are predicting a regression for Beachy in K rate. The big question is: can any of the young Braves starters(Hanson, Beachy, JJurj, or Mike Minor) pitch 200+ innings this year? Fredi Gonzalez probably using the big 3 out of the bullpen less this year might help that, if those starters can manage to stay healthy.
             3. bstar March 4, 2012 at 7:32 pm

                Edit: those K rates for Hanson and Beachy were from 2011 only and represent career highs for both.
             4. Voomo Zanzibar March 4, 2012 at 7:44 pm

                The (>1977)Mariners have more 200k seasons than 111 years of Yankees !

                And four of those 15 were since 2001.
                ______________

                (And A.J. Burnett now has three of the top four wild pitch seasons in NYY history)
             5. Doug March 4, 2012 at 8:49 pm

                And the post-1962 Astros and Mets both have significantly more than the Cubs, Cardinals, Red and Braves.
             6. Doug March 4, 2012 at 8:51 pm

                Make that significantly more for the Astros and Mets than the Cubs, Cardinals, Reds, Braves and, especially, the Pirates.
             7. bstar March 4, 2012 at 9:02 pm

                Not that surprising about the Astros considering they’ve had Ryan, J.R. Richard, and Mike Scott pitching for them. I’d wager Roger Clemens, Larry Dierker, Roy Oswalt, and maybe even Joe Niekro might have a few also.
             8. Ed March 4, 2012 at 9:28 pm

                Dierker, Clemens, and Oswalt had one each. Niekro’s highest was 152. Now if only they had the foresight to start Schilling instead of trying to use him as their closer.
             9. bstar March 4, 2012 at 9:36 pm

                Or the money to re-sign the Big Unit when he came over mid-season in ’98. Randy got over halfway to 200 K in only 11 starts with Houston (116).
             10. Doug March 4, 2012 at 9:57 pm

                 1967 Twins (Boswell, Chance, Kaat) and 1969 Astros (Dierker, Griffin, Wilson) are only teams having 3 pitchers with 200+ Ks.

                 Teams have had 2 pitchers with 200+ Ks 48 times, led by the Doddgers with 8 times, including 6 straight seasons (1961-66) with Koufax every year and Drysdale in 1962-65. Mets, Angels and Giants had done this 4 times, and Astros, Tigers and Phillies have done it thrice.
          2. Dr. Doom March 5, 2012 at 10:24 am

             It’s funny to me that the Brewers have 3 times as many since moving to the NL as they had in twice as long in the AL. That’s pretty shocking when you consider it, especially since they had two Cy Young winners in the AL, none in the NL. It’s a different game, that’s for sure.

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       3. Doug March 4, 2012 at 9:59 pm

          Make that Astros, Tigers, Phillies and Cubs with 3 seasons having 2 pitchers with 200+ Ks.

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