Eye-opening play at the plate to limit Oakland’s damage in the 3rd: Rookie RF Avisail Garcia needed a perfect throw to nab Coco Crisp, and that’s just what he unleashed. It’s nice to hear Jim Kaat in the booth again, describing it as a “good baseball play” by all concerned — the decision to send Crisp, the way Garcia charged and delivered a one-hop throw that sat up nicely for Gerald Laird, and Crisp’s back-door slide that almost escaped the tag. Doug Fister backed it up with another called third strike to end what might have been a big inning.
Now let’s get that run back, Miggy!
Ha, loved Vasgergian’s call on the Crisp error. “Santa Maria!” I wonder if he pilfered that from Blazing Saddles. One of the townspeople sees Mongo entering riding a bull and mutters the same call.
Does anyone know if this is the first time, that four playoff games are scheduled on the same day?
Since the inception of the Division Series each year, I recall that a series will begin and then, they had an off day between the first and second games.
Luis, I just checked — we had a quadruple-header last year, on October 4! (I didn’t remember, either.)
There were 7 others before that: 2003-10-04, 2002-10-05, 1999-10-9, 1996-10-5 and 10-6, and 1995-10-3 and 10-4.
Thanks, John. I having a hard time trying to watch the Nats-Cards game. Stupid mexican networks are not televising all of the games 🙁
We knew the Detroit ‘pen would fall on its sword sooner or later.
John, I saw the wild pitch and the home run, but didn’t see Cespedes stolen bases. Was the blame more on Benoit or Laird for the steals?
Benoit all the way. Laird’s throw almost nipped Crisp at 2B, but he stole 3rd standing up.
Benoit IMO, definitely for the steal of 3rd anyway, in which he bounced the pitch. And was asleep at the wheel on the delivery as well.
That would’ve been my guess. Benoit always struck me as a guy who loses focus with men on base.
I don’t know why Leyland never lets Avisail Garcia hit against RHPs. sure, Quintin Berry played well in Game 1, but he doesn’t seem to have as good bat control against tough pitchers. I’ve seen Garcia have some long, tough at-bats so far in his short career, fighting off tough pitches. I thought Berry should have pinch run for the first two baserunners in the 8th. And Garcia’s already thrown out one runner, we might need his arm later in the game.
Gee, I wonder why Jimmy Leyland pinch-ran Kelly for Delmon. Well, that’s a move that paid off.
Big mistake pitch from Balfour to Miggy on 1-2. Now they should walk Fielder, I think.
(Betcha never thought I’d promote a bases-filling IBB!)
I agree with the IBB to load the bases even though it didn’t work out. The game was tied and Infante was on 3rd anyway. Better to walk Prince and have 2 slow guys (Miggy and Prince) on 1st and 2nd and hope for a double-play. Hats off to the Bengals. They’ve climbed a big hill to get where they are.
Great day for the Tigers (Don Kelly!!)with two post-season wins in 22 hours. Or one more than the Lions have given us in 54 years (title Dec 57, one playoff win 1991 season over Cowboys).
Chin up, Robbs — I think this is the year that Billy Sims carries us all the way….
(It’s possible that I’ve stopped following the Lions at some point. Do we still have that switch-hitter as our kicker?)
Too funny John. Detroit sports exist solely to take years off my life. I will approach the Pearly Gates and St Peter will look down at his book and say “You’re not due for five years” and I’ll just say “watched too many Lions games and Benoit-Valverde combos” and he’ll say “Come on in”. Being a Lions fan a mental condition cured only by class 4 pharmaceuticals. Now I go by 10 and Telegraph to see “Billy Sims Barbecue”. But hey the man could run…
I just heard Jim Kaat call Jimmy Key a “crafty lefthander.” Don’t we all have to do a shot, or something?
Wasn’t Kaat rather crafty himself?
Kitty belongs in the Hall of Fame. Longevity, consistency, Gold Glove defense. Put him in.
I’d like to jump on the “Jim Kaat for the HOF” bandwagon, but –
Bert Blyleven had about the same career wins as Kaat (287 – 283) and more impressive stats in a number of areas (especially career strikeouts and Pitcher WAR), yet it took him till the next-to-last year of eligibility, and a concerted campaign by super-supporter Rich Lederer, to get him in.
Kaat’s continued visibility as a broadcaster does not yet seem to have translated into raising his profile enough to get him into the HOF via the Veteran’s Committee, though I am not really sure if he has even been considered yet.
Kaat would seem to have a decent case compared to these guys.
OOPS! somehow my list didn’t get posted:
– Luis Tiant
– Tony Mullane
– Tommy John
– Mel Harder
– Billy Pierce
Kaat was a good pitcher for a long time, but that 108 ERA+ is not going to help. Also, he evidently did not get a lot of respect from his contemporaries. For example, he was an all-star selection only 3 times. Look at 1966, 25-13 record, 131 ERA+, leads league in CG and IP, and gets nary a Cy Young vote (though he did place 5th for MVP). In fact, only once (in his 20-14 season in 1975) did Kaat get any Cy Young attention. Not saying it was fair but, aside from his fielding prowess, Kaat seems like the Rodney Dangerfield of pitchers.
BTW, Kaat has one of the longer historical spans among players that he faced, pitching to both Ted Williams and Julio Franco, representing a span of 68 years (1939 to 2007).
Doug, these are the B-ref ERA+ numbers:
Kaat – 107
Roberts – 113
Jenkins – 115
Wynn – 106
Ruffing – 109
Grimes – 107
Blyleven – 117
These aren’t huge disparities.
Mick,
I’m not saying that Kaat’s ERA+ disqualifies him, only that it doesn’t help his chances.
On your list, the 3 most recent players were all good strikeout pitchers, which Kaat wasn’t. Kaat kept the ball in the yard and relied on his defense to make plays, witness over one hit per IP for his career. Possibly one reason why he got hardly any AS or CYA recognition.
Doug,I’m just having a little fun while I make my case for Kaat, although I am being sincere. I realize that nowadays we don’t value pitching wins as much as we once did, but I think it’s worth noting that from 1961 to 1976 Jim Kaat was 1st in all of baseball in wins with 246, which was 1 more than Bob Gibson’s 245. Don’t get me wrong, I realize that Gibson was probably one of the top 10 pitchers of all time and Kaat doesn’t come close to Gibby, but the mere fact that Kaat had more wins over a 16 year span in which both players were active is significant. During the same time frame Kaat was 1st in MLB in games started (544), 2nd in innings pitched (3810.2), 8th in K’s(2207), and 6th in WAR for pitchers. Also, for pitchers who logged a minimum of 3000 innings during the searchable era, Kaat’s 2.05 BB/9 ranks 3rd only to Juan Marical and Fergie Jenkins. If you narrow the search to pitchers who pitched a minimum of 2000 innings, Kaat ranks 6th.
@48 Doug, that stat at the end is incredible. Have you done a post on this before? Seems like it might be an interesting topic, although I’m guessing Julio Franco would be involved a lot.
@48, 54 above – “historical spans” of pitchers facing batters:
Satchel Paige can beat that, if you use Negro League batters. He faced Yaz in 1965 (who got the only hit off him) when he pitched one game for the A’s. Yaz played till 1983. Paige started in the Negro Leagues in 1927; there are almost certainly Negro league batters who faced him who started before 1910 – how about HOFer Pop Lyoyd, who started in 1907 and played till 1932?
That would be {1983-1907} = 76 years!
Tommy John/Omar Vizquel might be worth investigating -they overlap in 1989 and give you 1963 to 2012, without the first batter.
In reply to #55, furthest back I can find for a batting opponent of John is Robin Roberts (whom John faced off against in his first start of 1964), whose career went back to 1948 (that is a 64 year span and counting).
Giving credit for Omar and John being in the same ballpark, I can get a 73-year span for Tommy John.
– John was a teammate of Early Wynn in Sep 1963 (they pitched different games of two series)
– John was in uniform for the Yankees when they visited Seattle May 19-21, 1989 (John pitched in Anaheim for the Yanks May 18 and back in New York on May 25, his final appearance)
So, Wynn/John/Vizquel takes us from 1939 to 2012, a 73 year span.
Kaat also matches up favorably with Hall of Famers Robin Roberts, Fergie Jenkins, Early Wynn, Red Ruffing, and Burleigh Grimes. These are their respective career WAR stats according to Fangraphs.
Kaat – 71.2
Roberts – 76.7
Jenkins – 91.0
Wynn – 61.4
Ruffing – 64.9
Grimes – 54.1
Blyleven – 110.0
I get your point about Blyleven and that he shouldn’t have had to wait so long, and I’ll agree that he and Jenkins were better than Kaat, but if there’s room for Roberts, Wynn, Ruffing, and Grimes, then there’s room for Kitty and his 16 gold Gloves.
One of these is not like the others:
“Roberts, Wynn, Ruffing, and Grimes”
Because of his great peak from 1950-55, Robin Roberts is closer to an all-time great than a “merely” deserving HOFer, as the other three are. If there had been a Cy Young award (or its equivalent) during that period, Roberts would have won at least two/three, and would now be perceived differently.
This also highlights the often large difference between Fangraphs and B-R WAR:
PITCHER..F-G//B-R
Kaat – 71.2//40.4
Roberts – 76.7//77.3
Jenkins – 91.0//77.4
Wynn – 61.4//46.5
Ruffing – 64.9//48.6
Grimes – 54.1//44.2
Blyleven – 110.0//90.7
By either method of WAR, Kaat isn’t in the same ballpark as Blyleven. I agree that Blyleven _shouldn’t_ be the minimum HOF standard for pitchers, but the BBWAA seems to believe otherwise.
Wow, I can’t believe how expansive the gulf is between Kaat’s rWAR and fWAR, LA. That might be the biggest gap I’ve ever seen, at least %-wise for a long career.
71.2 fWAR is over 76% higher than 40.4 rWAR. That’s astounding. Normally fWAR IS a little higher than rWAR across the board for pitchers. I guess Kaat’s low walk total is helping his FIP and his fWAR (just a guess).
I’m more of a big Hall guy, so there’d probably be room for Kitty in my HOF.
I won’t kick if Kitty gets in, but I won’t stump for him, either.
A quick check of the 50 HOF starting pitchers with at least 1,000 IP since 1901 (and not counting the Babe) shows:
– All 50 had at least 1 qualified year with ERA+ at least 140, and 44 of them had 2 such years. Kaat had none; his best ERA+ was 131.
– 45 of the 50 had at least 3 qualified years with ERA+ at least 130. Kaat had 2 such years.
He was good and durable for a long time, and I like that he kept the game moving. But his peak was pretty low for a HOFer.
I thought you weren’t a peak guy like me, JA.
b @62 — Just because I’m not peak-first doesn’t mean I can’t sneak a peak once in a while! 🙂
Haha. I chuckled out loud on that one.
John, I’m a bit sentimental about Kitty, who had an ERA+ of 157 in 1972, although it was in only 15 games and 113.1 innings of a 10-2 season with a 2.06 ERA. That was the year that he broke his hand sliding into 2nd base breaking up a double-play in a game against the White Sox on July 2nd. Having missed virtually all of July, as well as August and September, one can only wonder if we would be having this conversation had he played the full season and finished with 20-25 wins. Here’s a guy who was consistently good for 35-40 starts a year. At that rate he was on pace to make another 20-25 starts.
As for the fact that he only had 2 qualifying seasons of better than 130 ERA+, he also had seasons of 129 once and 126 twice. I’m curious how he would stack up against the other 50 if you reset the criteria of ERA+ to >125.
Brooklyn Mick @65 — Don’t think I’m anti-Kitty. He was a ChiSox bright spot when I first lived in the area in 1974-75.
But his comparison with HOFers isn’t much helped by dropping that ERA+ threshold:
120 — Kaat had 5 qualified seasons with an ERA+ at least 120. 45 of 50 modern HOF SPs had at least 6 such years. At this threshold, Kaat tops Dazzy Vance and Jack Chesbro (4), Catfish Hunter and Vic Willis (3), and Joe McGinnity (2).
125 — This is the threshold most favorable to Kaat, since all 5 seasons of 120+ were also 125+. 36 of the 50 HOFers had 6 or more such years. Those with 5 (tied with Kaat) are Ryan, Sutton, Dean, Hoyt, Haines, Grimes and Waddell. Those with less than 5 are Niekro, Vance, Chesbro, Hunter, Spahn(!), Willis and McGinnity.
On this last threshold, those who didn’t have more such years than Kaat fall into three groups:
– Those with substantially more innings than Kaat (Ryan, Sutton, Niekro and Spahn; they all happen to have 300+ wins as well);
– Higher peaks (Dean, Vance, Waddell, McGinnity and Willis; the last two also lost years in the study by the arbitrary 1901 cutoff); and
– Poor HOF selections (Haines, Hoyt, Chesbro, Hunter).
That leaves Burleigh Grimes, whose IP, ERA+ and WAR are all fairly close to Kaat. Grimes is kind of a tough case to evaluate, since most of his best years came when he was one of the few allowed to throw the spitball.
But, hey, Ol’ Stubblebeard made it to the HOF 30 years after he hung up the spikes and was still around to enjoy it for another 20 years, so maybe Mr. Kaat will have similar luck when he’s next eligible.
I do like him as a TV guy.
John, thanks for conducting the searches and for taking the time to offer up your analysis and opinion. Also, thanks to Lawrence, Doug, and bstar for stating your respective positions regarding the Kit-Kaat, whose candy bar out-sold Reggie’s by a long shot!
I think Bill James has finally lost it. Over on his website, someone asked him re: Jim Kaat and the HOF. Bill replies: “I should study Kaat’s Hall of Fame worthiness in more detail. Jim Kaat was my favorite player for several years when I was a kid, or one of my favorite players certainly;”. He then talks about some numbers before concluding: “But I haven’t actually studied it in detail.”.
Seriously Bill? 1_ You’ve written a book on the HOF. 2) You’ve written a bible on the entire history of baseball. 3) Jim Kaat used to be one of your favorite players.
And yet somehow you’ve never studied whether he’s worthy for the HOF???
Al Alburquerque! 3 pitches, 1 out, the win, and the most controversial live-ball-kiss in MLB history!
I couldn´t watch the game but I just saw the replay of that kiss. What I don´t understand is, why are the A´s players making such a big deal about it? They should worry about how to beat the Tigers, not making up unwritten rules.
Mark Fidrych talked to the ball, Al Alb just took it to the next level!
What if Al-Al had merely held the ball aloft and, casting a melancholy gaze thereon, declaimed:
“Alas, poor Reddick! I knew him, Horatio.”
Including postseason benoit has given up 15 HR. He especially struggled in september. Leyland can be loyal to the point of stubborness. Im glad Tigers won but man o man that bullpen always makes it interesting!
Wow, just realized that Joey Votto tied with Dan Uggla for the NL lead in base on balls despite missing 51 games. Votto and Uggla both had 94, which is the first time since 1986 that no NL player has reached 100 walks (non strike years only). It last happened in the AL in 2004 when Eric Chavez led with 95.
The only player this year in either league with more than 100 walks was Mr. Three True Outcomes himself, Adam Dunn. The last non-strike season in which only one player topped 100 walks was also 1986, when Wade Boggs was the only person to do it. Beyond that, you’ve got to go back to 1966 when Harmon Killebrew was the only one above 100 walks.
Interesting, Ed. Tacking on, I see that this year’s walk rate of 3.053 BB/9 is the lowest since 1968. (And of course the SO/9 is the highest ever.)
What the heck was Ichiro thinking, trying to steal 3rd, with the heart of the line-up coming up? And Hammel struggling?
Ed, I’m convinced one of the big reasons we see attempted steals of third with zero or two outs so often is because the players making these moves, even if they’re thrown out, are not being told they did something wrong. There’s the whole “treat your players like grown men” thing going on. Is anyone going to say something to Ichiro that even if he’d barely made it, this was still a bad play? I doubt it.
Walking the Grandy Man with two out and a guy on third? I don’t get that one. I know Russell Martin was under the Mendoza line for half the season, but Granderson isn’t exactly Albert Pujols…
Right, he just hit more HRs than Albert each of the last two seasons…
Grandy came into the playoffs riding a 7-17 streak in which he had 3 homers and 8 RBI’s in the final 4 games of the regular season. Walking him intentionally in that situation wasn’t a bad move.
And, as brp stated, Grandy has more home runs than Pujols in the last two years by an 84 to 67 margin. In fact, Grandy leads all of MLB in dingers the last 2 years with 84. His closest pursuers are Braun and Cabrera with 74.
As for Ichiro getting thrown out attempting to steal third with no outs, what ever happened to the axiom that you never make the first or third out at third? With Rodriguez batting, Cano on deck, and Swisher in the hole, he had no business trying to swipe third.
Trivia question while watching Sunday night post season baseball. In 1935, the Phillies played the Reds at Crosley Field in the first MLB night game. How many years earlier were the Phillies and A’s allowed to play on Sundays in Philadelphia?
They began playing in Philly on Sundays in 1934. Games had to end at 6:59 and begin no earlier than 1:05.
Numerology Dept.: A’s had nine hits and nine K’s, while the Tigers had eleven hits and eleven K’s. That’s the first time in post-season history both teams have had their hits equal their K’s in the same game at a level of nine or more. That happened once in the majors during the 2012 regular season (Cards/Astros, 9/20/2012)
Nice, birtelcom.
How’s this? With Washington’s win, postseason teams that struck out exactly 13 times in a 9-inning game have a 13-12 record.
The last such game was Detroit’s clincher over NYY last year. 21 of the 25 games happened since 1997.
Richard, I never would have guessed that there was but one year between the first game under the lights and the last city to legalize Sunday baseball. Both Philly clubs had financial difficulties. I wonder if missing out on Sunday gate had something to do with it. That was a distinct disadvantage compared to other franchises.
How am I supposed to watch this O’s-Yanks thriller *and* Arroyo’s excellent beginning at the same time?
Haha, I hadn’t see this when I posted below.
…AND the Chargers game?
So now Bronson Arroyo is no longer pitching a perfect game we can all just go watch the Yankees-Orioles game right?
SF fans, I’m doin’ all I can for you:
There have been 3 CG shutouts by Reds in postseason history, but two come with an asterisk — the other team wasn’t necessarily trying to score. (Jimmy Ring & Hod Eller notched back-to-back 3-hitters in 1919.)
So the only completely legitimate SHO in Reds postseason history was a 1940 5-hitter by Bucky Walters.
I think it is fair to say that only half the BlackSox players weren’t trying to score, OK 55% if you count the pitcher, but the catcher, 2nd baseman, 3rd baseman and right fielder were probably trying to score.
Did Lincecum pitch relief or did I dream that? Has anything similar ever happened in a 4-0 game?
Robbs, can you give your question more context? Did you take Lincecum’s appearance in that situation as a waste of his talent, or as a sign of prematurely giving up the game?
I’m seeing a huge number of shattered bats here in the last week or so.
Jeff Johnson is the 11th postseason pitcher charged with 5+ runs while getting 1 out or less. The last one to do it is in the opposing bullpen, and it looks like CC means to keep Mr. Robertson idle tonight.
It’s too bad — I was really looking forward to a one-run or extra-innings acid test. 🙂
Time for me to hit the hay. Good night, all!
“it looks like CC means to keep Mr. Robertson idle tonight.”
Naturally, Robertson — one of the few who have ever allowed 5 runs while getting 1 out or less in the postseason — entered the game just as I was shutting down. But apparently even my kibosh powers have limits.
Hope for the Cards/O’s: In the 2-3 (rather than 2-2-1) format, the home team in the first two has lost Game 1 and come back and won the series 5 times (1974 NLCS, 1977 ALCS, 1977 NLCS, 1983 ALCS, 1996 ALDS). In 3 of those cases, the Yankees in 1977, the Orioles in 1983 and the Yankees in 1996, the team with such an inauspicious start won the World Series.
Bad news for the Giants, no team has ever lost the first two at home in the 2-3 format and come back and won the series. Only the Brewers in the 1981 ALDS forced a game 5.
As for the other series, only 4 times has a team lost the first two on the road in the 2-3 format and come back and won the series: Dodgers in 1981 in the NLDS (v. Astros); Brewers in 1982 ALCS (vs. the Angels); Padres in 1984 NLCS (vs. the Cubs); and Mariners in 1995 ALDS (vs. the Yankees). Only the Dodgers eventually won the World Series from that group.
Ichiro just made up for his ill-advised steal attempt in game 1. That dance move he put on Wieters at home is one for the books.
That was crazy John. I can’t recall ever seeing such a play at the plate, especially in the postseason. They call him a magician with the wand, but those dance steps were incredible.
Never seen one like that either, Mick. (Can I call you Mick?)
He was so focused and agile and precise. Quite amazing.
If that had been a game-winner, the writers would be crafting the legend right now.
Yes John, feel free to call me Mick.
Regarding guys like Ichiro, I love it when someone that is past his prime rises to the occasion, especially with a signature play such as that one. I’m sure it will be played during his HOF Induction Ceremony whether the Yanks prevail or not.