Effective at 19

118 Replies

Bryce Harper debuted last night, and all things considered, it went fairly well for a super-prospect who made the cover of Sports Illustrated at 16. While his Washington Nationals fell 4-3 to the Dodgers in 11 innings, Harper went 1-for-3 with a double and sacrifice fly and nearly threw out a runner at home. Best case scenario, Harper’s first game proves to be a hint of good to come and his rookie season puts him in league with a handful of other iconic players.

Harper is 19. In baseball history, 20 players have had at least 2 WAR in a season at his age. Fourteen of those players have been pitchers, and of the six batters who’ve done it, three are in the Hall of Fame, and another will be shortly.

Let’s start by looking at the players who’ve done this. First, here are the offensive players who had at least 2 WAR at 19:

Rk Player HR WAR/pos ▾ Year Age Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
1 Mel Ott 18 3.5 1928 19 NYG 124 500 435 69 140 26 4 77 52 36 3 .322 .397 .524 .921
2 Edgar Renteria 5 3.0 1996 19 FLA 106 471 431 68 133 18 3 31 33 68 16 2 .309 .358 .399 .757
3 Ken Griffey 16 2.8 1989 19 SEA 127 506 455 61 120 23 0 61 44 83 16 7 .264 .329 .420 .748
4 Ty Cobb 1 2.6 1906 19 DET 98 394 358 45 113 15 5 34 19 41 23 .316 .355 .394 .749
5 Travis Jackson 4 2.3 1923 19 NYG 96 350 327 45 90 12 7 37 22 40 3 3 .275 .321 .391 .712
6 Buddy Lewis 6 2.1 1936 19 WSH 143 657 601 100 175 21 13 67 47 46 6 6 .291 .347 .399 .746

And here are the pitchers who’ve done it:

Rk Player SO WAR ▾ Year Age Tm G GS CG SHO GF W L W-L% SV IP H R ER BB ERA ERA+ HR
1 Gary Nolan 206 6.8 1967 19 CIN 33 32 8 5 1 14 8 .636 0 226.2 193 73 65 62 2.58 147 18
2 Dwight Gooden 276 5.4 1984 19 NYM 31 31 7 3 0 17 9 .654 0 218.0 161 72 63 73 2.60 137 7
3 Bob Feller 240 5.3 1938 19 CLE 39 36 20 2 3 17 11 .607 1 277.2 225 136 126 208 4.08 114 13
4 Larry Dierker 108 4.0 1966 19 HOU 29 28 8 2 0 10 8 .556 0 187.0 173 73 66 45 3.18 107 17
5 Rube Bressler 96 3.5 1914 19 PHA 29 10 8 1 15 10 4 .714 2 147.2 112 37 29 56 1.77 148 1
6 Chief Bender 127 3.4 1903 19 PHA 36 33 29 2 2 17 14 .548 0 270.0 239 115 92 65 3.07 100 6
7 Wally Bunker 96 2.9 1964 19 BAL 29 29 12 1 0 19 5 .792 0 214.0 161 72 64 62 2.69 134 17
8 Felix Hernandez 77 2.9 2005 19 SEA 12 12 0 0 0 4 4 .500 0 84.1 61 26 25 23 2.67 158 5
9 Smoky Joe Wood 88 2.4 1909 19 BOS 24 19 13 4 3 11 7 .611 0 160.2 121 51 39 43 2.18 115 1
10 Ray Sadecki 95 2.3 1960 19 STL 26 26 7 1 0 9 9 .500 0 157.1 148 76 66 86 3.78 109 15
11 Chuck Stobbs 70 2.3 1949 19 BOS 26 19 10 0 2 11 6 .647 0 152.0 145 72 68 75 4.03 109 10
12 Walter Johnson 71 2.2 1907 19 WSH 14 12 11 2 2 5 9 .357 0 110.1 100 35 23 20 1.88 129 1
13 Bert Blyleven 135 2.1 1970 19 MIN 27 25 5 1 1 10 9 .526 0 164.0 143 66 58 47 3.18 119 17
14 Pete Schneider 108 2.0 1915 19 CIN 48 35 16 5 11 14 19 .424 2 275.2 254 110 76 104 2.48 115 4

Why is it rarer for an offensive player to be effective at 19? Looking over the lists, a few things come to mind.

Nine of the pitchers made their mark here in either the 1960s or prior to 1920, times that offense took a backseat in baseball. It doesn’t necessarily explain how a 19-year-old pitcher could shine above other pitchers in a given year, since all could theoretically benefit from depressed offensive conditions. Perhaps pitchers get more opportunities to put up big numbers when hitting’s down in baseball, though and there’s less risk in trotting a 19-year-old hurler out.

Other factors could be at work, too. Many of the pitchers listed here were used extensively early in their careers, too much really. Smoky Joe Wood, Rube Bressler, Wally Bunker, and Gary Nolan all famously blew their arms out (Wood and Bressler at least came back later as outfielders.) Felix Hernandez and Larry Dierker each had big years in pitchers’ parks. In fact, Dierker was essentially two pitchers in 1966: Playing at home in the Astrodome, he was 8-2 with a 2.34 ERA; on the road, he was 2-6 with a 4.42 ERA.

As for the hitters, there’ve been many times in baseball history when 19-year-old future stars have sat the bench, from Jimmie Foxx in 1927 to Alex Rodriguez in 1995. More often, batters have either been in the minors or college at 19, MLB players below age 20 a rarity in general. Perhaps hitters need more time to find timing at the plate in the same respect that pitchers often have the edge early in a season.

Foxx barely made it off the bench his first three years in Philadelphia. It was how Connie Mack and other managers essentially operated in those days. It makes Mel Ott’s 3.5 WAR for John McGraw and the New York Giants in 1928 all the more impressive and aberrational. Is Bryce Harper the next Mel Ott? Only time will tell.

118 thoughts on “Effective at 19”

  1. John Autin

    “”Why is it rarer for an offensive player to be effective at 19?”

    Graham, I think the main reason is that natural ability plays a bigger role in pitching success than in hitting success.

    It’s not uncommon for a pitcher’s fastball to peak at 19 or 20. And sometimes a rookie pitcher can be very effective for a season relying mainly on that fastball.

    And some pitchers have had early success with some kind of trick pitch that loses effectiveness as hitters get used to it. Gene Bearden, although he was not so young at the time, is one such example; he won 20 and led the AL in ERA in 1948, but hitters learned to lay off his knuckle-curve that rarely wound up in the strike zone, and he never had another winning season or even a qualifying season, .

    It’s noteworthy that pitchers who were effective in the majors at 19, collectively, have not fared nearly as well over the rest of their careers as have 19-year-old hitters. I think a big reason for that is that the successful young hitters are precociously advanced in skills that most hitters acquire only with years of MLB experience, if at all.

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    1. Graham Post author

      It’s definitely rare that young aces stay good. I was inspired to write this post after I noticed that Bob Feller had 16 10-strikeout games by the time he was 20. More impressively, he did it in the offensive boon of the late 1930s. It’s amazing both that Feller made his mark and that he didn’t flame out spectacularly as many of the other pitchers here did.

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        1. Mike L

          Feller might have been helped by taking essentially four years out for WWII. He threw 960 innings in the three years before, then 371 innings his first full year back. But he was a vastly different pitcher after that. His k/9 was 5.9 in 1947, 5.3 in 1948, and was never again above 4.6.

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          1. Graham Post author

            Feller’s a bit like Lefty Grove. I want to say both were young flamethrowers who had to reinvent themselves as junk ballers after hurting their arms.

          2. Timmy Pea

            Good points about the war and reinventing themselves. Old timers talk about the young Feller having the best fastball they’d ever seen.

          3. Graham Post author

            Feller’s strikeout totals were unreal for his era. Consider 1936: While the American League SO/9 total was 3.3, Feller was at 11.0. And the first-time Feller led the majors in strikeouts with 240 in 1938, he had over 100 more K’s than all but one pitcher in the bigs.

          4. bstar

            @11, the amazing thing is Bob Feller always said his fastball was not as good as Walter Johnson’s. That’s the really scary thing.

          5. MikeD

            It’s possible the war years saved Feller allowing him to pitch longer, but I think his arm would have blown out early on if he was prone to injuries that clearly happened back then, although they didn’t know what they were. I’m talking about rotator cuff injuries, torn labrums, and elbow ligament damage requiring TJS. Pitchers probably showed up with sore arms and elbows, rubbed some dirt on it, and hoped for the best. Some may have learned to pitch differently, like Frank Tanana did decades later, where most just ended their careers.

            Feller didn’t injure his arm, but he did injury his knee in June 1947 during a game and he was never the same after that. If I remember correctly, he fell trying to avoid a throw or a hit ball, but the loss in velocity wasn’t caused by his high innings. It was his push off leg and he lost quite a bit of his velocity from that day forward.

            I think my last ten notes have all been about War-time players. Not sure why!

    2. Neil L.

      JA, with respect to 19-year old hitters being better able to deal with the major leagues than 19-year-old pitchers, I think that only Griffey and Renteria are relevant to the current discussion sine they are from the modern big-money ear of baseball. Therefore, I respectively disagree that hitters are better equipped.

      Both Edgar Renteria and Ken Griffey Jr hit the major league ground with their feet moving, but they are such rare exceptions as to make the stategy of bringing up a 19-year-old almost untenable.

      Travis Snider is an enigmatic example of calling up a rookie too soon. He came to the majors at age 20 and posted an impressive September. He is now toiling at Las Vegas with a 2012 line of .400/.477/.693 (PCL granted) and is still waiting for a return to the show.

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      1. John Autin

        Neil, here are the hitters from the 20-year period 1989-2008 who were in the majors by age 19:

        Junior Griffey, Alex Rodriguez, Ivan Rodriguez, Andruw Jones, Juan Gonzalez, Edgar Renteria, Adrian Beltre, B.J. Upton, Justin Upton, Wilson Betemit, Karim Garcia.

        Out of 11 players, there are at least 3 Hall of Famers, and 7 other fine MLB careers. Only Garcia didn’t pan out.

        Now the 8 pitchers in that span who reached the bigs by 19:

        Felix Hernandez, Edwin Jackson, Rick Ankiel, Wilson Alvarez, Rich Garces, Rosario Rodriguez, Matt Riley, Todd Van Poppel.

        Any further questions? 🙂

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        1. Graham Post author

          Another interesting thing is to look at guys who managed 100 OPS+ or better in at least 300 plate appearances at 19. These players are:

          Mel Ott, 139 OPS+ in 1928
          Mickey Mantle, 116 OPS+ in 1951
          Ton Conigliaro, 137 OPS+ in 1964
          Cesar Cedeno, 114 OPS+ in 1970
          Edgar Renteria, 103 OPS+ in 1996

          Mantle, Conigliaro, and Cedeno were all kept from 2 WAR by their poor defensive WAR showings.

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          1. Graham Post author

            Oops, I mistakenly stipulated in my Play Index search that the 19-year-olds in question needed to have a .750 OPS. Three more of these players who had at least 100 OPS+ and 300 PAs are:

            Sherry Magee, 121 OPS+ in 1904
            Ty Cobb, 131 OPS+ in 1906
            Ken Griffey Jr., 108 OPS+ in 1989

          2. MikeD

            Are we still insisting with this nonsense that Edgar Renteria was actually only 19-years-old in 1996? 🙂

        3. Neil L.

          No further questions. Hmmm…. I think I just got posterized by the HHS equivalent of a slam dunk. 🙂

          Nice list, John. It doesn’t leave much room for discussion.

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          1. John Autin

            I guess I got carried away again, Neil. I didn’t mean to cut off discussion; I … um … just meant to … um … make it very challenging for you to retort?

    1. Neil L.

      Let’s keep track of the schedule to see when the Nationals and Rockies might meet, Doug.

      Speaking of Moyer, 5 of his 11 runs allowed this year are unearned, resulting in an immpeccable 2.28 ERA.

      At least Jamie Moyer can’t face Omar Vizquel this year to potentially set a record for the oldest combined age of pitcher facing batter!

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      1. Voomo Zanzibar

        Moyer could face Omar, if an NL team decides they need a 45 year old utility guy at the trade deadline.

        Anybody notice that on opening day Omar entered the game in the 12th inning, and played in Left Field for the first time in his career?

        Then, one inning later, played first base for the 2nd time.

        Then scored the winning run in the 16th.

        Not bad for a 45 year old.

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    2. Shping

      Too bad the ageless Julio Franco isnt playing anymore!

      The Rockies and Moyer, by the way, don’t play the Nationals until late June. Something to look forward to.

      I wonder how many father-son combinations Moyer has faced? Eric Young and Young Jr.? The Gwynn family? The Griffeys, Boones…?

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          1. Shping

            The Fielders too — of course. Thanks again Graham! I definitely owe you a round of fine ales for all your helpful legwork.

      2. Lawrence Azrin

        Reversing this for hitters facing father-son pitching combinations, Ted Williams faced both Thornton Lee and Don Lee. I think that he hit HRs off of both of them.

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  3. Mike L

    With service time becoming much more important, I wonder if you are going to see this happen even more infrequently. For hitters, if they are viewed as potential stars, you either want them in the line up full time, or in the minors. For pitchers, the balance between service time/innings pitched/arm wear makes it a disincentive to bring someone up too soon. Wally Bunker is interesting-a star at 19, solid at 20, only one good year after that, and retired at 26

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  4. Doug

    Nats were incredibly careful about not bringing up Strasberg too soon. Aand he still hurt his arm. But, it seems he has recovered very well.

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  7. Timmy Pea

    Speaking of very young players, it looks like Starlin Castro will have 500+ hits before his 23rd birthday. He gets beat up here quite a bit because he does not walk much and he’d been hitting leadoff. This year he’s been hitting 3rd and he’s off to a good start. He seems to be able to get good wood on just about any pitch and they’re letting him run quite a bit so far this year.

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  8. Shping

    As little as i know about WAR, it’s interesting to see King Felix on this list with only 84 Inn Pitched. Seems like a pretty big impact for barely a cup of coffee or two.

    And my favorite youngster, Robin Yount, who broke in at 18, was nowhere near the hitters list. He broke in at age 18 and played every day forever after, but had a total WAR of only 4.8 his first 4 years, with a low WAR of 0.1 his 2nd year in 1975. It took at least 4-5 yrs for him to get “good” and at least 7 yrs for him to become “very good” (reaching a WAR of 11.5 in his amazing 9th season in 1982). Which had me wondering:

    1) Has any other HOFame hitter started so slowly before reaching greatness? Pitchers like Koufax and Ryan started slowly — still not quite as much as Yount — but i can’t think of any other hitters.

    2) Would any team, even a lousy rebuilidng one, be as patient today?

    Reply ↓
    1. Graham Post author

      Yount had 4.8 WAR cumulative through his first four seasons. Surprisingly, at least to me, 18 Hall of Fame players did worse than this, Willie Stargell, Brooks Robinson, and Harmon Killebrew being some of the bigger names that struggled early on.

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      1. Paul E

        Graham:
        I think the PI is giving you guys like Killebrew who were required to stay with the parent club on ML rosters and sat as bonus babie. Killebrew might not have gotten 500 PA’s in his first 5 seasons. Through age 24, a guy named Clemente had an OPS+ of 89 and 1.2 oWAR through his first five seasons in over 2000 PA’s. However, he did accumulate dWAR of significanc. But still, hitting sure appeared to be a challenge to the young fella’

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      2. Paul E

        I guess I’m doubling-up on this. Clemente’s batting runs were a -43 through age 24. Amongst players with 2,500 PA’s through age 24, this would rank 80th out of 85 eligible players. Honestly, if that ain’t struggling, I don’t know what is…..He had 6.7 dWAR over that period and, I imagine, all that spectacular defense had somebody in the Pirates front office bedazzled while he struggled at the plate. He was another mandatory roster guy since the Bucs stole him from the Dodgers in the Rule V draft?

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        1. Lawrence Azrin

          Yes, per B-R:

          “November 22, 1954: Drafted by the Pittsburgh Pirates from the Brooklyn Dodgers in the 1954 rule 5 draft. ”

          This meant that Clemente had to spend the entire 1955 season on the Pirates roster, or be offered back to the Dodgers. I guess that (in theory) the Pirates still could’ve sent him down to the minors after 1955, but in 1956 and 1957 they were still a pretty bad club (7th place, both years, way under .500), so he still was the best option in RF.

          In the big-picture view, it was the right decision – letting him struggle at the plate while the team was bad was certainly worth getting his great performance from 1960 on, when the team was usually good to great (128 games over .500 from 1960-72, only one season more than four games under).

          Is there anyone who knows the Pirates franchise history really well who could answer this?

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  9. Neil L.

    Graham, great blog, as usual. Your posts have been money, garnering over 75 comments and replies each time.

    I, clearly, must be from another planet (or country) because I had not heard of Bryce Harper until recently.

    Looking at his (scanty) minor league stats, what is the big whoop?

    As an outfielder, his slash last year at AA and AAA was 0.287/0.392/.501, in 452 PA with a noticeable drop off when he was promoted to AAA.

    This year with Syracuse he went .250/.333/.375 before being called up.

    Are all of us, including the Washington brass, victims of the Baseball America hype machine?

    I understand that the Ryan Zimmerman injury necessitated a minor-league callup, but why risk destroying a prospect’s confidence by bringing him up before he is ready?

    Does Bryce Harper’s minor-league body of work match the hype surrounding his ML debut?

    Why not at least wait until September to see what he can do?

    I must be missing something that the statistics don’t tell.

    Reply ↓
    1. Graham Post author

      Hey, thanks Neil. Much obliged, and I’ve liked seeing your name popping up over at my website as well.

      I first heard of Harper while he was still in high school. He had enough hype that he took his GED at 16, proceeded to tear up the junior college circuit, and went No. 1 in the draft as soon as he was eligible.

      I know part of what has people excited is Harper’s power. I want to say I’ve heard hitter comparisons to Mike Schmidt for him. Harper’s arm also sounds pretty good, seeing as he was a catcher in high school and had that near-assist last night.

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      1. Evan

        He’s the real life version of Harrison Bergeron. [I’m hoping that at least one reader gets that reference]

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        2. John Autin

          I enjoyed the Vonnegut reference, Evan, but didn’t get the fit. Is Harper required to wear handicapping devices to drag him down to average level?

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          1. Evan

            No, but to read some of the reports he his some kind of superhuman. His ability to hit for power, his speed, his hustle, his throwing arm. Probably not the best analogy.

            Neil,

            Harrison Bergeron is the title character of a Kurt Vonnegut short story. It’s worth a read. It is included in his collection of short stories Welcome to the Monkey House or may be available online.

      2. Neil L.

        Graham, I don’t have access to Bryce’s junior college stats, but looking at his 3 HR in 147 PA at AA last year and his 1 HR in 82 PA this year at Syracuse, his power doesn’t look exceptional.

        His brief acquaintance with the minors, in my opinion, smacks of soneone being rushed to the bigs by his organization.

        I know that scouts and general managers are generally to be trusted because they can see the intangibles of Bryce Harper, but their judgement can be clouded by the press clipping just as much as the rest of us.

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    2. bstar

      Neil, Harper’s pattern, all the way back to high school, is to struggle early at whatever level he goes to next and then dominate. Also, he absolutely dominated the Arizona Fall League last year. So I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see Bryce struggle early but then find his bearings later(maybe even next year if he sticks around).

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    3. Lawrence Azrin

      “Why not at least wait until September to see what he can do?” The Nationals don’t have that kind of luxury right now. They are off to an excellent start, the best since moving from Montreal. Their pitching is great (1st in ERA), but their offense is bad (12/16 in the NL in runs, 13/11/15 in the slash stats), and getting worse with Zimmerman on the DL.

      Left field, in particular, is an absolute sinkhole, with Nady, Derosa, and Bernadino having OPS+’s of 9, -1(!),and 44. Harper can only help, he can’t be any worse.

      Forget the minor-league slash numbers, on the scouts 20-to-80 scale, both his power and arm are rated an “80”. They don’t hand out 80’s too often. Plus, from everything he’s said, he is not lacking in confidence, in any way.

      Reply ↓
  10. Shping

    Thanks for the additions, Graham. 18 is a lot. As usual, i’m better at asking questions than answering them.

    My only quibble, however, is that Yount was playing full-time his first four years, and i think most of the others were not. Killebrew, for instance, didnt play full-time until his 6th year, Robinson and Stargell until their 3rd and 4th years. So naturally their WAR scores were lower.

    I guess i should have asked, have any future HOF hitters started as slowly in their first four, full-time years? Not sure how significant that is to anyone else, i just always thought that was interesting about Yount. Even if all it reveals is, “Of course it took him longer to develop; he was only 18.”

    Graham, who else did you come up with as candidates? (Sorry i’m too lazy or unskilled to do it myself)

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    1. Graham Post author

      Limiting the Play Index search to 1,500 plate appearances (Yount had 2,324 his first four seasons), only two players had lower cumulative WAR:

      George Kell, 4.7 WAR, 1,740 PAs
      Luke Appling, 4.7 WAR, 1,560 PAs

      If we do a search around HOFers who matched or exceeded Yount for PAs their first four seasons, the two enshrined players that come closest for WAR are:

      Ozzie Smith, 6.3 WAR, 2,536 PAs
      Red Schoendienst, 5.9 WAR, 2,396 PAs

      Reply ↓
      1. Shping

        All of them at the infield “skill positions.” Makes sense. Seems like teams can be more patient with them, for obvious reasons.

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      2. Graham Post author

        It may be worth noting, too, that Kell and Schoendienst both got their starts in the majors during World War II when the talent levels were much lower.

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          1. Graham Post author

            I should have a longish post going up on WWII-era Major League Baseball at another site sometime in the next month. I’ll put the word out here when it’s up.

      3. Doug

        Another way to look at this.

        Among non-pitchers, Yount is one of 35 HOF players with under 10 WAR through age 22. Move that ahead to age 24, and there are still 24 players not yet at 10 WAR. Even at age 26, there are still 11 players on the list.

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        1. John Autin

          Good point, Doug. Yount played just one short year in the minors. The Brewers put him in the lineup in ’74 and kept him there because, frankly, they were a lousy team, they were trying to get established in town (their attendance was mediocre to poor from 1970-74) and they needed a few youngsters to make it look like the club had a bright future.

          So Yount spent 3 seasons (age 18-20) in the majors when he didn’t look anything like a future HOFer. But he still posted 2.2 WAR combined for those years; only 7 AL shortstops did better in that time. And at age 21, he posted 2.6 WAR, which was 2nd among AL shortstops.

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          1. Shping

            Thanks for the additions John, and very true about the early Brewers situation. It didnt hurt that thousands of young girls were in love with the curly-haired kid either.

            That last note on 2nd best surprised me too! It’s easy to forget what we expected out of shortstops before Yount, Harrah, Ripken, Trammell…

            And at age 24, Yount — already a 5-year veteran who was tired of losing all the time –almost quit the game to pursue a golfing career. So the Brewers moved another young kid named Molitor to SS for awhile. Yount soon returned, hit the weights, and became Rockin’ Robin!

  11. Steven

    Wally Bunker shut out the Dodgers, 1-0, in game three of the 1966 series. He had enough left in the tank at the ripe old age of 24 with the expansion Royals to win twelve games. Ten complete games.

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    1. Graham Post author

      Even Bunker’s stats from 1968 hint at what might have been. He was buried deep in the Orioles’ bullpen but managed to get in 71 innings, compiling a 2.41 ERA with a 1.028 WHIP and 5.6 SO/9. On a lesser team, I could see him putting up similar numbers, at least, to what he did with the Royals in 1969.

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  12. Thomas Court

    Something new always jumps out at me when I decide to surf through the career numbers of some of the players mentioned in these posts.

    This time it was some of Mel Ott’s numbers.

    He led the league 6 times in home runs, but averaged less than 34 dingers a year in those seasons. That is a remarkably low number for pacing the senior circuit so many times in the live ball era. His high of 38 in those seasons would barely make the National League top 10 in 1999, 2000 and 2001.

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    1. Lawrence Azrin

      Even though we think of the 20s/30s between-the-wars era as the firdt “lively ball” era, the offensive levels in the 30s were nioticeably lower in the NL than the AL. This true for both runs scored and HRs.

      I looked over Ott’s full-time career from 1928 to 1945. Incredibly enough, he was in the NL Top-10 in HRs _every single year_ , eighteen years in a row. During that time, there were far far fewer 35-or-more HR seasons in the NL than the AL, 15 to 34 (and nine of them were in 1929-30). Scoring was also down in the NL, by an average of .66 runs/game from 1931-42.

      Also, excluding 1929/1930, the HR/game rate for Mel Ott’s career was less than half of the NL rate for 1999-2001.

      So it should come as no surprise that any time Mel Ott hit 30 or more HR from 1928 to 1945 (eight times), he’d stand a pretty good chance of leading the league in HRs.

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      1. Graham Post author

        Out of the 25 men in the 500-home-run club, Mel Ott’s eight 30-homer seasons rank among the lowest. Ted Williams and Gary Sheffield also hit 30 home runs eight times apiece. The only members of the club to do it less were Ernie Banks (7), Reggie Jackson (7), Willie McCovey (7), and Eddie Murray (5).

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        1. Lawrence Azrin

          All true, but pre-WWII, only Ruth (13) Gehrig (12), and Foxx (12, in a row), and Gehrig (10) had more 30-HR seasons than Ott. Those four were the only consistent long-career big HR hitters pre-WWII (not fair but I am not including Greenberg or Mize).

          Thanks #53/John Autin. Mel Ott is one of the less-remembered all-time greats. I think his role as “early live-ball era slugger” has been taken by Ruth, Gehrig and Foxx.

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      3. Doug

        During Ott’s career (1926-47), here is the breakdown of 30+ HR seasons:
        6 players – AL (3 times), NL (once)
        5 players – AL (3 times), NL (once)
        4 players – AL (4 times), NL (once)
        3 players – AL (4 times), NL (once)
        2 players – AL (twice), NL (6 times)
        1 player – AL (4 times), NL (6 times – only one was Ott)
        no players – AL (twice), NL (6 times)

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      4. birtelcom

        Ott was the all-time career NL leader in home runs from 1937 until 1966, a 29-year period. That is a long time: The record when Ott broke it was Rogers Hornsby’s (career began in 1915)and the man who broke Ott’s record was Willie Mays (career lasted until 1973)

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        1. Doug

          Babe Ruth has held the AL career record since 1920. A-Rod is just 75 home runs away so, possibly in 2014 or 2015, Babe’s 90+ year reign may finally come to an end.

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    2. bstar

      It wasn’t just that the National League had a lower run scoring environment than the AL in Ott’s career. There was also the fact that Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, Joe DiMaggio, and Hank Greenberg were all playing in the American League. When you focus on the years Ott won the NL HR title, he would have led the major leagues a lot of these years in dingers were it not for these Hall of Famers out-homering him in the AL.

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      1. Paul E

        Bstar:
        This is from a Steve Treder authored, Hardball Times article of 2004 that basically concluded the two leagues were using different baseballs form 1931 – 1942:

        … this is something very important to keep in mind when assessing players of the 1931-42 era. We may tend to see the best hitters of that time as being in the AL (Gehrig, Foxx, Greenberg, etc.), with the NL’s best hitters (Ott, Klein, Medwick, etc.) as not quite measuring up. Maybe the best hitters were American Leaguers, but a careful scoring-environment context assessment needs to be applied in order to be certain.

        All these months later, we’ve decided to finally get around to taking up that challenge we presented ourselves last April: here we’ll present an attempt at a “careful scoring-environment context assessment” look at the achievements of the best players of the 1930s.

        In doing further research, I’ve come to two conclusions I wasn’t ready to make earlier. First, while I remain very confident that the different-resiliency baseball is the primary variable causing the very different scoring levels between the leagues in that period, the research I conducted in preparing the “Eddie, Eddie, Eddie and the American League Walkathon” piece alerted me to a second important factor as well: AL umpires were calling a much more batter-friendly strike zone than NL umps in the 1930s, just as they would be through the height of the AL walk boom of 1947-56. (To be clear, in the 1930s it might be just as correct to phrase it as NL umps calling a particularly pitcher-friendly zone.)

        Reply ↓
        1. bstar

          Very interesting, Paul. I had never heard that explanation about the 30s before. I tried to point out that MLB has changed the baseball a couple of times recently(1977, 1993-94), but a lot of people wanted to chalk that up to “conspiracy theory” or something when in fact both leagues saw a sudden rise in offense right after those changes. I’m not convinced MLB hasn’t done the same in reverse the last few years to dial back the offense to more “normal levels”. I think this is an attempt to get the steroid years out of everyone’s minds as quickly as possible.

          Reply ↓
          1. Paul E

            bstar:
            In 1977, they must have changed the ball – they changed the manufacturer from Spalding to Rawlings! The Rawlings Rocket – George Foster 52 HR’s – Rod Carew .388, etc…was generally blamed for the offensive explosion along with some further AL expansion into Toronto and Seattle

            I believe Bill James even makes note of the AL baseball being juiced in the 1930’s in one of the two abstracts

  13. Lawrence Azrin

    It’s difficult to comprehend this now, when the main difference between the AL and NL is the DH and there’s interleague play, but until fairly recently the two leagues had very distinct identities.

    They had separate umpiring staffs, separate league presidents (now there’s no league presidents at all),and interleague trading wasn’t allowed until the 1950s(?). “League identity” was once much stronger. So it should be no surprise that the AL and NL used different baseballs.

    Reply ↓
    1. birtelcom

      In the pre-DH era, American League umps behind home plate used those big external chest protectors that they would hold out in front of themselves like shields. NL umps and AL umps would therefore postion themselves differently behind the plate, supposedly resulting in different strike zones in the two leagues. Perhaps partly as a result, the AL had the reputation of being more of a curveball-heavy league and the NL as more a fastball-heavy league. At the very least, the different umpire equipment meant that on TV games of the two leagues actually looked different, even at a brief glance. In the 1950s and 1960s, and even into the 1970s, perhaps based on the influence of Jackie Robinson and the Dodgers, the NL had a reputation as being better integrated than the AL.

      According to the splendid work of baseball history “A Game of Inches” by Peter Morris, waivers were required to do interleague trades (sort of like what is required to do post-deadline trades today) until after the 1958 season.

      Reply ↓
      1. birtelcom

        The unusual thing about “Game of Inches”, by the way, is that it is not a history of baseball from the point of view of the results on the field — there are many such histories of pennant races and famous games and performance records, and so on. “Game of Inches” is instead a history of the innovations of the game as an institution: the evolution of the rules, the equipment, strategy and tactics, league structures and organizations, and so on. It can as a result be dry in places, but if you are interested in that sort of thing it can be a fantastic resource, to which Morris dedicated a heroic amount of research.

        Reply ↓
      2. Lawrence Azrin

        birtelcom,

        Thanks (RE – waivers); in early 1947, it was considered rather stunning when the Detroit Tigers asked waivers on Hank Geenberg and waived him right out of the AL, selling him to the Pirates for $75,000.

        What was most stunning might be that Greenberg had just led the AL in HR and RBI, and seemed to still be one of the top hitters in baseball. 1947 was his last year, though.

        Even though these interleague waiver rules were done away with by 1959, I think that Frank Robinson was the first major star to be traded in his prime.

        Reply ↓
        1. Neil L.

          Lawrence, the Vada Pinson-Frank Robinson batting duo was broken up and the Orioles are eternally grateful for the interlesgue trade.

          Reply ↓
        2. Doug

          Lawrence,

          I think there are earlier players traded in their prime.

          Tris Speaker and Jimmie Foxx come immediately to mind.

          Or, were you just thinking about inter-league trades?

          Reply ↓
          1. Lawrence Azrin

            OOPS! –

            You’re right, what I meant was “Major stars traded _between the AL and NL_ in their prime”. I can’t think of any before Frank Robinson. I think that’s what made it such a huge story at the time; that and the fact that he was still one the best players in MLB when the trade was made.

            In the example I used in #70, I do not consider Greenberg in his prime, since his career ended the next year. The Speaker and Foxx “trades” also involved huge sums of money for the time, $55,000 and $150,000. respectively.

            Of course a number of other great players have been traded in their primes, including Pete Alexander, Eddie Collins, Rickey Henderson (several), Rogers Hornsby (three times in three years!), Junior Griffey, Joe Morgan, Steve Carlton…

            Probably the biggest “straight-up” trade (no $$$ involved) between two major stars* was Hornsby/Frisch after the 1926 season.

            * I see Jimmy Ring also went the Cards, but that’s a technicality

          2. Doug

            Good list, Lawrence.

            To your point, only Griffey on that list was an inter-league trade.

            Like Hornsby, Dick Allen was traded 3 times in 3 years, once in an inter-league deal.

          3. Mike L

            There was also that fella Ruth. And add to the list Connie Mack stripping his team-along with Foxx, HOF Mickey Cochrane traded to the Tigers after an OPS+ of 158. 30 year old HOF Al Simmons traded in 1932 after hitting .390 with an OPS+ of 175

  14. Lawrence Azrin

    #74/MikeD,

    As for Bob Feller’s decline after his 1947 knee injury, I found this breakdown, courtesy of Rob Neyer, from The Bleacher Report:

    “Bob Feller hurt his knee in June 1947 and everything changed. This article from ESPN’s Rob Neyer hits this injury on its head. Check out Feller’s stats before and after:

    1936-1947: 158-83, 2.92 ERA (138 ERA+), 1.295 WHIP, 7.5 SO/9, 4.6 BB/9 (1.62 SO:BB)

    1948-1956: 108-79, 3.70 ERA (106 ERA+), 1.344 WHIP, 4.1 SO/9, 3.5 BB/9 (1.18 SO:BB)”

    The drop in K’s is quite dramatic.

    It’s possible that his performance may have declined earlier than this if not for the three-plus year WWII break (though he did pitch quite a bit while serving), but we’ll never know. More likely, he was just a total freak of nature, like Walter Johnson or Nolan Ryan, who could withstand huge numbers of innings pitched while throwing the ball about as fast as a human being is capable of.

    Reply ↓
    1. Doug

      I was looking at Feller’s game logs in his rookie season, as a 17 year-old.

      Indians started him out slowly, using him in relief for his first 6 appearances. He allowed a run or more in 5 of those 6 games, and also one or more walks in 5 of 6 games. After those relief stints, his ERA stood at 7.88.

      Then Cleveland switches Feller to a starter. In 8 starts, he fanned 10 or more 4 times, and 15 or more twice (tying and then breaking the ML record), and only once had fewer Ks than IP. Feller had a 2.67 ERA as a starter.

      Cleveland, to their credit, didn’t rush Feller … much. He had 148 IP as an 18 year-old, and then was a full-time starter beginning at age 19 (277 IP). Feller’s 371 IP in 1946 trail only Wilbur Wood (1972) and Mickey Lolich (1971) in the live ball era.

      Reply ↓
      1. Paul E

        I guess this is what Cincinnati has planned for Arnoldis Chapman? You know, in lieu of Chapman burning his arm out, let’s let Homer Bailey attempt to prove he can pitch in the major leagues for the fifth time…….

        Reply ↓
      2. Lawrence Azrin

        Feller also had 36 complete games (in 42 starts) in 1946, the most since Walter Johnson in 1910. The last pitcher with 30 CG was Catfish Hunter in 1975. Nowadays only a handful of active pitchers have that many _career_ CG.

        I’ve also read that he was pitched in relief late in the year, to boost his IP total when it was apparent that he had a chance to break the all-time KO record. I don’t know if this true, or was just being used in his nominal role as the Induian’s “closer” (he had six relief appearences and four saves in 1946).

        Reply ↓
    2. MikeD

      I initially, like many, had believed Feller’s drop in K’s was due to some arm injury/abuse resulting from his 1946 season. That’s why I discovered the leg injury, including comments from Feller himself that he never could throw as hard after that.

      What’s interesting is he must have changed his pitching style to some degree on the fly, similar to what Tanana did after he lost his fastball. Neither were DL’d. They just adapted. I’m guessing Feller still maintained his power-pitching style, but at reduced velocity, unlike Tanana, who went from Randy Johnson to Jamie Moyer. That’s probably not a fair comparison in that he was not quite Johnson at the start and was more than Moyer after the injury, but the change for those of old enough to have seen Tanana was quite dramatic.

      While the lost War years no doubt cost Feller a chance at 300 wins, my guess is the lost fastball cost him as much or more. Power pitchers have a better chance of pitching until they are 40 or so than others, although I wonder if junk-balling lefties are right up there, too.

      Reply ↓
      1. Neil L.

        Mike D., not sure what power pitchers you are thinking of, beside Nolan Ryan, in the modern era, who have pitched into their forties.

        I agree with you that soft-tossing lefties will have huge, major-league longevity, but don’t forget about knuckleballers. The Niekro-Wakefield connection!

        Reply ↓
  15. Lawrence Azrin

    #74/MikeD,

    To back up what you said about Feller hurting his knee in 1947, here’s some sttistical evidence, courtesy of Rob Neyer from The Bleacher Report:

    “Bob Feller hurt his knee in June 1947 and everything changed. This article from ESPN’s Rob Neyer hits this injury on its head. Check out Feller’s stats before and after:

    1936-1947: 158-83, 2.92 ERA (138 ERA+), 1.295 WHIP, 7.5 SO/9, 4.6 BB/9 (1.62 SO:BB)

    1948-1956: 108-79, 3.70 ERA (106 ERA+), 1.344 WHIP, 4.1 SO/9, 3.5 BB/9 (1.18 SO:BB)

    The 7.5 SO/9 pre-injury may not be impressive today, but back then, it was. Of his nine pre-injury seasons, he lead the league in SO/9 five times. After his injury, he was a shell of his former Rapid Robert self.”

    While it is possible that Feller’s performance would have declined earlier than 1947 if he hadn’t had a three-plus year break serving in WWII (he did pitch some while serving), I think it’s more likely that Feller was just one of those total freaks of nature, like Walter Johnson or Nolan Ryan, who could pitch huge numbers of innings while throwing a baseball about as fast as a human being ever has.

    Reply ↓
  16. Lawrence Azrin

    Hey folks,

    So sorry for the near-duplicate comments here in #75, #76. I thought my first one hadn’t gone through (I received an error message), so I (sorta) re-posted.

    Reply ↓
  17. Lawrence Azrin

    #82/Doug,

    Thanks; the list (of great players traded in their prime) was not meant to be definitive, I just skimmed the all-time WAR career list. Dick Allen and also Gary Sheffield (five times) also came to mind when I typed “Hornsby”.

    I did a little more research on the FRobbie Reds-Orioles trade, and NL President Warren Giles was actually quite upset at the time (1965), that the Reds “let” the AL get one of the NL’s best players.

    Reply ↓
    1. Shping

      I’m pretty sure it’s obvious to y’all, but i cant resist pointing out what several of those players have in common: Hornsby and Allen (so I’ve heard) and Sheffield (I witnessed) were all jerks who were traded often for that reason.

      Reply ↓
      1. Neil L.

        Shping, is there any such thing as a “character guy” in baseball, the opposite of a jerk, the equivalent to a “character guy” in an NHL dressing room who puts team ahead of self? An anti-Sheffield, anti-Hornsby, if you will?

        Who would be an example? A catcher?

        Reply ↓
        1. bstar

          The first player who jumps to mind, Neil, is Mike Sweeney, who for years was the “leader in the clubhouse” for the Royals. As his skills waned, he was traded to Seattle the year the news broke that Junior Griffey was stealing naps on off days during game time. Once the story leaked, Sweeney stood up in Seattle’s clubhouse and challenged whoever was man enough to fess up to the privacy leak to a fight right there on the spot. Nobody said a word.

          Reply ↓
          1. Neil L.

            Thanks, bstar.

            At that point his career, Mike Sweeney was a DH and first baseman, not exactly high-status positions.

            Why would no one challenge Sweeney’s “authority” in the clubhouse, either in Kansas City or Seattle if he wasn’t bringing it on the field?

          2. bstar

            Well, I think no one wanted to stand up and say, “I’m the one who broke the private clubhouse problem to the media” and get his ass kicked by Sweeney on the spot. I shouldn’t have said “as his skills waned” to describe the end of Sweeney’s career. It was more injuries than anything that did him in as he posted a 109 OPS+ in his final year.

          3. Shping

            Sweeney and that story is a great example!

            @99 Neil, again, i think maybe you’re just trying to solicit debate, and that’s ok, but i guess i would answer your question (paraphrased: what gives a marginal player like Sweeney, clout in the clubhouse?) with a question:

            Who would you respect more as a teammate (or play harder for as a manager): a 15-RBI backup like Sweeney, or an 80-RBI regular like Delmon Young?

          4. bstar

            Thanks, shping, but to be fair to Sweeney, before injuries got to him he was a five-time All-Star, hit .300 6 times, and drove in 100+ runs twice(including 144 in 2000). I don’t think Delmon Young will ever be that good, personally.

          5. Shping

            Good info, bstar. I knew Sweeney was a “star” for a few years, but i forgot how much of one. And i agree, Young will never match his career.

            I think we also agree on the main point, that character guys are valuable. And more often than not, they’ve probably got some good career stats to back their “cred”, even if not everyone remembers the details.

            Did you ever have the experience(s) i did as a kid and wonder, for example (around 1978), “Why do people think Yaz is so great? Or McCovey? Or Brock? They only hit .265 last year. What’s so great about that?” 🙂

        2. Shping

          Neil, not sure if you’re being sincere or maybe messing with me a little bit, but… god, i hope so!

          Most catchers, i would say yes, for routinely sacrificing their bodies, etc. Although — and i’m sorry because i think you’re a NY fan? — Posada didn’t earn any style points for complaining about being moved down in the order last year. Somewhat excusable due to frustration and overall good history, but anyway…

          What comes to mind for me are players who: routinely hit grounders to the right side to move runners over; pitchers who stay in the game even when being shelled in order to save the bullpen; most leadoff and #2 hitters who take lots of pitches; veterans who go out of their way to share tips with rookies, esp. if they’re competing with them for a job; etc.

          There’s no debate, is there?, that guys like this earn the respect of their teammamtes, help build that elusive notion of team chemistry, and help their teams win games? Sure, guys like Cobb and Hornsby could flat-out hit, but if you needed a SH or SF to win a game, and the guy at the plate needed a hit to set the season record for hits….

          Specific examples of character guys? Crash Davis, for one 🙂 Or anybody who has switched positions without complaining. Such as…

          I think few people realize that Paul Molitor was asked/told to switch positions numerous times in his career — from SS to 2B to 3B to CF to RF back to 3B to 2B to 1B to 3B to DH — and somehow fluorished while doing it. We could add Jackie Robinson, Pete Rose, maybe Miguel Cabrera…

          We as fans are probably oblivious to who some of these “character” guys are, since we’re not in the clubhouse on a daily basis, but i know this much: i’d rather have a Molitor than a Sheffield on my team anyday!

          If you’ve ever run a softball team (or a small business), and had to deal with all the personalities and gripes and so on, i’m sure you have an even better idea of what i’m talking about.

          Reply ↓
          1. Neil L.

            Shping, no not being insincere. Just trying to learn more about baseball.

            Love the Crash Davis reference.

          2. Shping

            @103 Ok, Neil, it’s all good. Ya gotta love Crash. “Don’t think. It can only hurt the ballclub.”

            Nonetheless, who do you think would be current “character” guys whose value is greater than their stats? I guess my personal picks would be Jeter, Ortiz, Thome, Moyer, Helton, C. Jones, T. Hunter, maybe Berkman, A. Jones, Hamilton; like you suggested, probably a bunch of catchers such as Molina, Molina…

      2. Paul E

        Got to love that Goose Gossage, who, at his Hall of Fame induction ceremony stated, “My rookie year, I hadn’t yet realized it yet, I was playing with the greatest team mate I ever would have, Dick Allen. Dick Allen went over my approach to hitters and taught me how to pitch”….. Gossage went on to play with Dave Parker, Willie Stargell, Willie Randolph, Thurman Munson, Reggie Jackson, Steve Garvey, Ryne Sandberg(?), etc….

        You won’t get that story from the print or broadcast media

        Reply ↓
        1. Lawrence Azrin

          I think that Bill James (in his NBJHA) is to a large degree responsible for Dick Allen’s reputation as a troublemaker. At this point, it’s hard to separate the myth from the reality.

          I’d venture that he got along very well with a number of his team mates, but he didn’t really care how the media portrayed him.

          Reply ↓
          1. birtelcom

            Allen’s rep long predates the Historical Abstract. He was repeatedly involved over the years in incidents involving disputes with teammates, unscheduled absences, etc.. Was some of this not Allen’s fault? Could be, but he certainly had a reputation, whether deserved or not, as a major troublemaker, through much of his career, long before Bill James was writing about him in retrospect.

          2. Hartvig

            I have to agree with birtelcom on this one. Not only do I recall being aware of Allen’s reputation in the 60’s even before I was a teenager I don’t recall James’ being all that harsh towards him. He even defended his actions in his first public incident where he punched out Frank Thomas (the first but not the best) which was more than I recall most sportswriters doing at the time.

          3. bstar

            The Frank Thomas fight had to do with Dick Allen being tired of disgruntled white veteran Thomas referring to young black players on the team as “Boy this” and “Boy that”. I don’t know about punching out Frank Thomas, but I do know that Thomas swung a bat and hit Allen in the shoulder during the fight; Thomas was released after that from the team despite Allen’s objections.

            When Chuck Tanner, manager of the White Sox in Allen’s time there, heard of Bill James’ irresponsible writings about Allen, he said, “He’s full of shit, and you can tell him I said that.”

            Craig Wright wrote a long, thoroughly-researched article for SABR magazine about Allen and interviewed all of Richie’s former managers (except for Walter Alston) and many of his teammates, all who held Allen in high regard and did not see him as a divisive presence on any of the teams he played for. It is absolutely vital to read this article to get a truer idea of who Dick Allen was and what his teammates thought of him. Here’s Wright’s article in its entirety:

            http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=2065

          4. Hartvig

            What James said about Allen in his entry in HBA2 was that he lost a big chunk of his career to “immaturity and emotional instability” which may or may not have been the reason (I haven’t read the article that bstar suggested yet). It’s pretty clear that something kept him from maintaining the level of performance that he was capable of anyways.

            What I had forgotten about was James including Allen in his “7 biggest jackasses in major league history” along with Rogers Hornsby, Hal Chase, Ty Cobb and 3 non-players he didn’t list. So I stand corrected.

          5. bstar

            I hope you do choose to read it, Hartvig, because it certainly changed my mind about Dick Allen. James calling Allen a “jackass” has little basis in fact. He did have alcohol issues, but almost to a man every manager and former teammate of his report the exact opposite of Allen: that he was a great teammate and a very smart baseball player. More than one manager called Allen the best baserunner and probably the most talented player they’ve ever had play for them.

          6. bstar

            For those not interested in wading thru Wright’s long article about Dick Allen, here is specifically what he learned about the infamous fight between Frank Thomas and Allen:

            “Allen’s critics invariably mention the fight that took place in 1965 between Allen and teammate Frank Thomas. Their theme has been that this fight disrupted the team harmony and kept them from building off their 1964 performance when they won 92 games, finishing one game back. Bill James described it this way: “In 1965, when the Phillies were trying to overcome the memory of having blown the pennant in the last few days of the 1964 season, Allen got into a fight with a teammate early in the season, forcing a trade.”

            An important correction to that interpretation is that the fight actually took place in the middle of the season, on July 3rd. The team was already well off their 1964 pace before the fight ever happened. Their pitching wasn’t nearly as good, and they had a couple of older players who had been key figures in 1964 who were on their way out in 1965. One of them was 36-year-old Frank Thomas who had lost his outfield job, and when the fight took place he was hitting .250 with 0 HR in 76 ABs. Pat Corrales remembers it this way:

            “It had really started earlier on our road trip in Chicago. Thomas was your tough bully type, and he had been picking on Johnny Briggs [21-year-old black outfielder], saying `Boy this’ and `Boy that.’ Dick didn’t go for that, and there were some words between them. We get back to Philly, and during early BP I’m down the line talking with Mauch, when we see this commotion down at the cage. They were just pulling them apart at this point, after Thomas swung the bat. During the fight, Thomas had hit Dick with a bat — on the shoulder.”

            The fight bothered Thomas so much that in the following game he hit his first homer of the year, but his career continued to slide away. He finished the year as a weak reserve with Houston and Milwaukee, hitting .187 in 91 ABs.

            When Mauch told Allen that Thomas was being put on irrevocable waivers, Dick protested on Frank’s behalf. Mauch ordered Allen and his teammates not to speak to the press about the fight and backed it up with a threat of stiff fines. That was unfortunate as the press and the fans heard just Thomas’s side, and they did not take kindly to a young black guy popping a white veteran. Mauch told me, “They really turned on him [Allen] after the Thomas fight. From there, if he did one little thing wrong, they would see it as so much worse because it was Allen. They got it in their heads that this was a bad guy, and they booed his every move.”

            But the view of the fans and the press was not the view in the clubhouse. Both Mauch and Corrales saw no effect on team morale, and Corrales noted that his teammates backed Allen in this dispute. In the book Crash, teammate Johnny Callison said, “Thomas rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Mauch wanted him gone — and here was his excuse. … Thomas got himself fired when he swung that bat at Richie. In baseball you don’t swing a bat at another player — ever.”

            Allen hit well in the game after the fight, going 3 for 4. At that point, he led the NL in hitting with a .341 average. But overnight, Allen’s shoulder swelled to twice its normal size. Corrales remembers, “He couldn’t lift that shoulder for awhile, and it bothered him for some time.” Dick continued to play and led the team with 161 games played, but it appears the injury affected his hitting.”

            Team Record

            Allen in 1965 BA AB HR RBI W-L Win%

            Thru July 3rd .341 279 11 49 40-35 .526

            After July 3rd .271 340 9 36 45-41 .523

            Rather than hurting team morale, it looks like Allen’s teammates picked him up as they managed to play at about the same level as they did earlier when Allen was stinging the ball.”

            This is why I find James’ version of the event to be “irresponsible”. It lacks any basis in fact; Bill did not even bother to look up when the fight even occurred and also neglected to see the Phillies were the same team before and after the fight, even with Dick Allen’s shoulder being hurt the rest of the season by Thomas’ reckless act of swinging at another man with a baseball bat. To get the facts completely wrong is one thing, but it is a sad thing that an entire new generation of people who didn’t know the specifics about Allen’s reputation had that wrongful view bolstered by James’ words.

            Sorry about the rant.

          7. Shping

            Good stuff guys: the kind of info i think we all enjoy learning here on HHS — even when there arent any stats/numbers involved!

            I too, now have at least a little more respect for Mr. Allen. Guess its a good reminder that there can be a huge difference between players’ media-perceptions and clubhouse-perceptions.

  18. Doug

    Lawrence,

    Yes, I understood the list wasn’t definitive. Nice tidbit there about the NL President’s reaction.

    Reply ↓
    1. Lawrence Azrin

      Doug,

      Yeah, I can’t emphasize enough how it was a different mindset up until a few decades ago, how MLB fans would consider themselves either “AL fans” or “NL fans”.

      I am of the “old school”; I consider myself an “AL fan” since I grew up following the Red Sox.

      Reply ↓
      1. bstar

        I guess I am old school, too, Lawrence, as my favorite teams went from the Big Red Machine to the Braves to the Cubs and then back to the Braves. I think a lot of that was due to the fact that every Cubs and Braves game was on television where I lived, so it would have been hard for me to grow up an AL fan. I consider myself an NL baseball guy to the core; I just don’t watch much American League baseball–it seems like a fake version of the real thing to me what with the DH and all. I know that’s a little extreme, but that’s the way I feel about it. Plus, the slower pace of AL games is mind-numbing to me; almost every AL game I watch seems to last 3 1/2 hours. All things being equal, I will almost always root for the NL team in the World Series.

        Reply ↓
        1. Shping

          Great points/memories about the (former) differences between leagues guys.

          Be grateful you didnt grow-up in Milwaukee in past 50 yrs, where everything is completely convoluted now. On the one hand, we’ve got the Braves/NL legacy, then the original Brewers/AL heritage (where they also moved from AL West to East to Central), followed by the “return” to the NL a decade ago. Part of me is glad that Milw is once again part of the “senior circuit” with more strategy involved; part of me misses my childhood rivalries with Yankees, Orioles, Tigers, Royals, etc. — and wishes they were moving to AL West instead of Astros.

          Reply ↓
          1. Lawrence Azrin

            Shping,

            To further complicate the Milwaukee Brewers’ heritage, they started out as the Seattle Pilots in 1969. Getting even further off on a tangent, one of the “Original Eight” Al teams in 1901 was… the Milwaukee Brewers, who moved to St Louis in 1902.

            The Brewers move from one league to another is unprecedented in modern MLB (though it won’t be next year, when the Astros switch to the AL). Back in the 1880s several teams changed leagues, with American Association teams joining the National League.

            The Cincinnati Reds and Brooklyn Bridegroooms were in the AA till 1889, then joined the NL in 1890. Pittsburgh joined the NL in 1886, St Louis joined the NL in 1892 after the AA broke up. Did I miss any?

  19. Doug

    Neil,

    I would include Randy Johnson and Steve Carlton as hard throwers who pitched into their forties (though Carlton was no longer effective). Bert Blyleven too, if you measure power by strikeouts rather than strikeout pitch. There’s also Kenny RogersN though it would be a stretch to call him a power pitcher.

    Reply ↓
    1. Neil L.

      Doug, good names!

      Yes, maybe I concede Mike D.’s point about power pitchers being able to last into their forties.

      I suppose mechanics are another factor in determining career longevity for a power pitcher.

      Reply ↓
      1. MikeD

        Neil, I think I came across that tidbit in one of Bill James’ books years back. While my initial inclination was that the crafty lefty would be the more likely to pitch until 40, James as he usually does built a compelling case that power pitchers do better as they age.

        If a pitcher starts out and can hit the upper 90s in his 20s, even if he loses six or eight miles per hour, he can still hit 90-92. A guy starting out at 92, however, will be down at 84. The crafty lefty might make that work, but most can’t, and righties throwing in the mid-80s are in for a tough time. Tom Seaver, for example, couldn’t throw anywhere near as hard at 40, but still won 16 games and had an ERA of 3.17. He still had a decent fastball and clearly knew how to pitch.

        So a pitcher like Justin Verlander who can hit 100 probably has a better chance of pitching effectively 38-40 because he can lose some of his fastball but still have enough to make his other pitches work. He’ll still have to make that adustment to be even more pitcherly as he loses some velocity, but he has a better chance than most. Someone like Sabathia also has a better chance than others because he can still throw hard, he’s a lefty, and is already knows how to pitch. Obviously how his weight will impact him is an open question, but I like his chances better than most. That’s probably why guys like Verlander and Sabathia are on the lists for potential 300-game winners.

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  20. Lawrence Azrin

    #110/birtelcom –

    “Allen’s rep long predates the Historical Abstract” Agreed, but James really solidified that point of view.

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