This post is for voting and discussion in the 42nd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats. This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1936. Rules and lists are after the jump.
The new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full group eligible to receive your votes this round. The new group of 1936-born players must, as always, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).
Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.
All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EST on Tuesday, January 14 while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EST Sunday, January 12.
If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1936 Round Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1936 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.
Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The 13 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The new group of 1936 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.
Holdovers:
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 10 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 7 rounds)
Gaylord Perry (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Juan Marichal (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for two rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ron Santo (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Everyday Players (born in 1936, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Harmon Killebrew
Bill Mazeroski
Vic Davalillo
Frank Howard
J.C. Martin
Jerry Adair
Julian Javier
Clay Dalrymple
Tony Gonzalez
Ruben Amaro
Wayne Causey
Bob Johnson
Pitchers (born in 1936, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Eddie Fisher
Don Drysdale
Joe Hoerner
Stan Williams
Fred Gladding
Ron Perranoski
Gary Bell
Ralph Terry
John Buzhardt
Barry Latman
Bill Monbouquette
John Tsitouris
Howie Reed
Lee Stange
Biggio, Sandberg, Santo
Killebrew, Santo, Murray
Whitaker, Perry, Grich
2 degrees of separation from Frank Howard. Growing up my back door neighbor was aunt to Tim Cullen teammate of FH. She saw him play several times and told me about it several years later.
Whitaker, Grich, Perry.
Perry, Sandberg, Santo
The calm before the storm; probably the last chance any of the current holdovers have to be elected for a while.
As most of you are probably aware, next year’s ballot will feature Frank Robinson, Bob Gibson, and Sandy Koufax, which will be immediately followed by 1934 Pt 1 with Aaron, Clemente, and Kaline. After that there are 3 elections with no top candidates (1934 Pt 2, 1933, and 1932), but still that’s 6 strong newcomers and only 5 elections. Then we get to 1931 – Pt 1 will have “only” Banks and Bunning, but oh that Pt 2: Mays, Mantle, and Mathews.
Dont forget Don Zimmer.
He might get some votes for mistaking Pedro for an Octagon opponent at the age of 72.
Lou Whitaker
Juan Marichal
Harmon Killebrew
Gaylord Perry, Craig Biggio, Harmon Killebrew
As always, seeing the names of players from this era brings back a lot of fond memories.
With the possible exception of Hank Sauer, I think that Frank Howard may have been the player in all of baseball history to benefit the most if the designated hitter rule had been in effect in the era in which he played. If you combined that with any ballpark besides Griffith Stadium and I would say that he would have been a lock for 500 home runs. Put him in the right ballpark- say Fenway or Wrigley- from that era, and there’s a good chance that Maris’s record might not have held up for near as long as it did.
I wasn’t a big fan of Harmon Killebrew when I was growing up and I don’t really know why. He’s always seemed like a decent guy. I’ve even got a rinsed out can of Killebrew Root Beer on one of the shelves of my sports stuff (it’s kind of cool looking with a screw top) and I was happy when he finally got into the Hall of Fame. I don’t see him as being any better than any of our hold over 1st baseman however and would really have to question his going in over any of them, particularly McCovey.
The Dodgers had a remarkable lot of talent on their pitching staff back in the very early 60’s when I was first getting interested in baseball. Along with Koufax and Drysdale you had Brooklyn stalwart Johnny Podres and hard-luck Roger Craig plus Perranoski and Larry Sherry in the pen. But for a little while Stan Williams looked as if he may have had as much promise of a great future in front of him as any pitcher on that staff.
My vote;
Perry, Sandberg, Santo
I cannot dispute your first-hand observations.
Looking at Howard’s home/away splits for his three 40+ homer years (68-70), he whacked:
69 at home
67 on road
And for his career:
.279 .368 .514 .882 at RFK/Griffith
.273 .352 .499 .851 career numbers
____________________
The only stadiums with significant PA where he was truly beastly:
Cleveland
.332 .446 .648 1.093
Minnesota
.335 .405 .602 1.007
Frank Howard’s home park with the Senators on DC was not Griffith Stadium, but DC (later RFK) stadium, from 1965-1971.
Still, I do agree with you, thatif:
-Howard had come along 15 years later or more to be able to DH
and
-played the majority of his career in a hitter’s park that favored righthanded pull hitters
.. he would’ve had a good chance to hit over 500 HR.
Both Howard and Jim Rice had 382 career HR; Howard had more Adjusted Batting Runs, 36.8 (85th) to 29.4 (123rds). Now, I know all about the 1978 MVP, ‘most feared batter’ and all that, but how does Rice get elected to the HOF (albeit in 14 tries…), while Howard gets 1.4% in 1979 and drops off the ballot???
I am NOT arguing that Howard belongs in the HOF, merely that Frank Howard and Jim Rice are a lot closer in actual career value than many people think. Rice _did_ have more defensive value, and a better peak than Howard. But it’s hard to see what separates Rice from Howard, or Norm Cash, or George Foster.
Gaylord Perry
Lou Whitaker
Bobby Grich
Gaylord Perry, Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich
Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons:
Perry 50.9
Grich 43.6
Santo 43.3
Whitaker 42.7
Martinez 41.3
Smoltz 40.1
Lofton 39.3
McCovey 38.9
Sandberg 38.8
Biggio 36.3
Allen 35.9
Murray 34.9
Killebrew 33.0
Marichal 32.7
Drysdale 29.4
Mazeroski, 10.4 WAA and maybe the happiest moment in baseball history
One more time: Perry, Martinez, Smoltz
Gaylord Perry
Ron Santo
Bobby Grich
Welcome back to my ballot, Bobby Grich! I’ve missed voting for you!
Also, I have to share my Harmon Killebrew story. I met Harmon shortly before he died. He was in St. Peter, MN in April 2010 speaking. There was, of course, about an hour for him to tell stories. Then an hour of question-and-answer. That COULD HAVE gone all night, because he was having so much fun telling stories, and we were all having so much fun listening. Then, he signed autographs – and that took longer than the speaking engagement. Because, as I’m sure you all know, when Harmon Killebrew signed autographs, he didn’t just “sign autographs.” He HAD TO talk to everyone. It’s just the kind of guy he was. Anyway, he was talking and signing and it was great, even though everyone had to wait for a million years. So, there was a one-item-per-person limit. Well, my wife and I only really one item for the two of us. So we brought something for her dad (who’s a big Twins fan, and grew up watching Harmon. But that, of course, left nothing for my dad, who is, like me, from Milwaukee, so not a Twins fan. He did come of age in the time of Harmon Killebrew, though, and remembered him fondly. So I called him on the phone to surprise him, and told him he had to hold on a minute. Then, when I got to the front of the line, I asked Harmon if he’d be willing to say “hi” to my dad. He said, “Of course!” and snatched my cell phone out of my hand. He asked my dad’s name, and I told him. My dad said, “Hello?” And Harmon said, “Hi, Bob! This is Harmon Killebrew!” He talked to him for a full minute. And you know what? No one in line was annoyed, because it’s not like it was special treatment. EVERYONE got there two-three minutes with Harmon. He was a very, very special person. I feel blessed to have met him. RIP, Harmon; you’re missed.
Most Regular Seasons MLB Homers During the 1960s:
1. Harmon Killebrew 393
2. Hank Aaron 375
3. Willie Mays 350
4. Frank Robinson 316
5. Willie McCovey 300
On a note unrelated to my previous post, how is Ron Santo on the bubble?!?
I guess this Hall of Famer is, somehow, STILL underrated.
I’m aware that he’s a relatively latecomer to the ballot, but so were Juan Marichal, Willie McCovey, and Dick Allen, and they’ve all racked up a couple of rounds to spare. Come on, Santo!
In the 1940/Round 2 vote Ron Santo lost to Pete Rose in the induction race by a single vote, which was actually discovered in a re-count. Santo’s support was enough to get him a back-up round of eligibility, but in the 1969 vote he appeared on only six ballots and lost his backup eligibility, by just one vote. The last two rounds he has, with 15 votes each time, come up just barely short of re-gaining his extra round. He just always seems to be missing out on something by the smallest of margins.
Perry, Whitaker, Santo
Whitaker, Grich, McCovey
Killebrew, McCovey, Perry
Biggio, Grich, Santo
Allen McCovey Sandberg
Perry, Santo, Biggio
Hartvig @#9 i am with you here, love some of these names and most of them bring back fond memories. But, there is one cringe worthy name on this ballot. None other then JC Martin who was much a part of those darn 69′ Miracle Mets, Being from Baltimore my Mom, Dad, Siblings and I were much wrapped up in the pennant race and the heavily favored Orioles. Only to have those dreams dashed by what seemed like multiple miracles. JC Martin was one of those miracles in game 4, 10th inning, score tied, bunt and then reached base on a Boog Powell error and Powell was almost automatic at 1B in the late 60’s with his glove. I felt we really hung in there and Cuellar matched Seaver pitch for pitch, even Eddie Watt was a stud and automatic in 69′. I just knew if the O’s had won that game 4, they would go on to win the pennant, but no, thanks to this journey man catcher that no one had heard of outside of New York, would pinch hit a bunt/error to drive in the winning run. Oh the memories eh…..
Anyways to steal a line from “Kung Fu Panda” Yesterday is history, tomorrow a mystery, so who will win this round of the COG? My solemn ballot this round;
McCovey
Perry
Killebrew
Honarble Mention:
Capital Punisher AKA Frank Howard
Big D’ from Van Nuys California Don Drysdale
I know what you mean. For reasons far too complicated to go into Bill Buckner’s name touched a sore spot for me when it came up on the ballot.
I’m also surprised that you’re the first to even mention Drysdale (well, I guess I did briefly but…). Not that I’m advocating for him- I think at best he’s a marginal COG candidate- but JAWS ranks him 49th vs. 43rd for Marichal (and JAWS doesn’t adjust for pre-1900 pitchers so their top 50 is heavily laden with pitchers from that era) and their scores are close at 57.5 and 56.0. Adam Darowski’s Hall of Stats ranks Marichal and Drysdale 49th & 53rd but has then both scoring 115 in his ranking. Bill James doesn’t see them as being that close (he has Marichal ranked 21st and Drysdale ranked 33rd) and of course he wrote at length about whether or not Drysdale was a worthy Hall of Famer and since as I understood it his conclusion was maybe I can see why people don’t think he meets the COG standard either.
Marichal, Perry, Biggio
Biggio, Smoltz, Marichal.
Killebrew, Grich, Biggio
Killebrew, Santo, Marichal
Bobby Grich, Edgar Martinez, Ron Santo
Perry, Grich, Drysdale.
WAR sees Frank Howard and Bill Mazeroski as having about the same value. And Howard and Killebrew get hammered by dWAR.
Harmon Killebrew did not do doubles (290 doubles in 9833 PAs). No one has as many PAs with fewer two-baggers. Only two others have at least 9000 PAs and fewer than 300 doubles: Larry Bowa and Brett Butler (combined HRs: 69).
Players with most 20 HR seasons with twice as many home runs as doubles.
Generated 1/7/2014.
Lowest Career Doubles-to-Homers Ratio, min. 1,000 PAs:
Mark McGwire .432
Harmon Killebrew .506
Ken Phelps .520
Dave Nicholson .525
Johnny Blanchard .537
Dave Kingman .543
Killebrew is also in this small group of players with a career ratio of more than 3 RBI for every 4 hits. Greenberg is notable as the only player to do this with more doubles than home runs.
Generated 1/7/2014.
He’s also in a small group of players with 25%+ of his hits being HRs (1000H min.).
Player………….HR…..H
Barry Bonds……..762…2935
Jim Thome……….612…2328
Sammy Sosa………609…2408
Mark McGwire…….583…1626
H. Killebrew…….573…2086
Dave Kingman…….442…1575
Adam Dunn……….440…1537
Ralph Kiner……..369…1451
Ryan Howard……..311…1176
Carlos Pena……..285…1138
Gorman Thomas……268…1051
McGwire.
6 career triples.
4 in his rookie season.
ONE triple, 529 HR in his last 6670 PA
If I recall correctly, for McGwire’s last triple, he was robbed of a homerun by a big-name outfielder. Looking it up, it was Tony Gwynn playing in that field on that night.
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1999/B08020SLN1999.htm
If he made it to third, I guess we can credit Big Mac with not admiring his shot.
From 6-22-88 to 8-1-99 McGwire had a streak of 1377 games (4613 AB) without a triple.
Looks like Paul Konerko has the second-longest triple-less streak at 1220 games (4420 AB) from 5-17-00 to 6-6-08.
The longest active streak belongs to Russell Martin, at 796 games and 2719 AB since tripling off Matt Cain on 9-9-07.
Longest career (G/AB) for different triple totals.
0 – Johnny Estrada 612/2079
1 – Rod Barajas 1114/3460
2 – Brian McCann 1105/3863 (and counting)
3 – Victor Martinez 1308/4884 (and counting)
4 – Charles Johnson 1188/3836
5 – Mike Sweeney 1454/5188
6 – Mark McGwire 1874/6187
Frank Howard: 7352 PA, 35 triples
Kong Kingman: 7429 PA, 25 triples
Mark McGwire: 7660 PA, 6 triples
Juan Marichal vs Don Drysdale.
Marichal:
Wins: 243
Losses: 142
Win-Loss%: .631
ERA: 2.89
Game Starts: 457
Complete Games: 244
Shutouts: 52
Innings Pitched: 3507
Strikeouts: 2303
ERA+: 123
All Star appearances: 9
Cy Young Awards: 0
World Series Titles: 0
WAR: 61.9
Drysdale:
Wins: 209
Losses: 166
Win-Loss%: .557
ERA: 2.95
Game Starts: 465
Complete Games: 167
Shutouts: 49
Innings Pitched: 3432
Strikeouts: 2486
ERA+: 121
All Star appearances: 8
Cy Young Awards: 1
World Series Titles: 3
WAR: 61.2
The standout difference is their W-L%, but other than that it’s very similar. I’m not sure I can continue to vote for Marichal if I’m not going to vote for Drysdale either.
As an aside, Drysdale’s 1959 WS appearance was interesting. 11 hits, 4 walks and only 1 earned run (on a double play when he was no longer in the game) in 7 innings has to be approaching some record for most baserunners/fewest runs in a WS game, no?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN195910040.shtml
Sharp eye, RJ.
Drysdale does indeed hold that record, together with Run Guidry. Spud Chandler has the most baserunners without allowing any runs. Johnny Antonelli is the only pitcher to allow a home run and no others runs with 13 or more baserunners. Jim Babgy is the only pitcher with that many base runners, but no walks, and allowing only one run.
Generated 1/7/2014.
Thanks for all the cool tables Doug!
Guidry’s 1978 game is the only one on the list since Drysdale’s. I’m guessing that’s because no pitcher would be allowed to give up that many baserunners in today’s game (with all the racking up of the pitch count that entails) without a reliever coming in, no matter how successfully he was escaping jams.
I know it is a fluky record, but I like the consecutive shutouts record, held by Drysdale, with 6 straight in 1968 (58 innings). The flukiness is compounded by the record being ‘broken’ by Hershiser’s 59 consecutive scoreless innings (but only 5 shutouts) in 1988. According to Wikipedia, the no. 3 on the list is Walter Johnson with 55 2/3 innings in 1913, and he has the more meaningful career shutouts record with 110. B-Ref doesn’t rate either consecutive innings or consecutive shutouts, not showing a leaderboard for either.
After RJ’s stats above, Drysdale has fewer career shutouts (49) than his contemporary Marichal (52). Maybe this is a bit like the hitting streak vs. career hitting. Incidentally, Luis Tiant also had 49 career shutouts (and 9 in 1968 to Drysdale’s 8), and Hershiser had 25 career shutouts (more than Roy Halladay’s 20).
Baseball Almanac has a consecutive scoreless inning leaderboard. In 4th place is Jack Coombs with 53 IP in 1910. It was his record that Johnson broke in 1913.
The BR PI shows Drysdale as the record holder with 6 consecutive shutouts.
Drysdale’s career WAR (67.2) is actually better than Marichal’s (63.1) because Don was a better hitter, but that advantage is still pretty small.
Like a lot of people on here, though, I always considered Marichal to be a cut above Drysdale. But they really do look like effective equals.
@47/bstar,
Speaking of equals – Drysdale’s career Pitcher’s WAR is 61.2, Marichal is 61.9. YET – Marichal is 101 games over .500, while Drysdale is only 35 games over .500. Lesson #137 why Pitcher’s Wins can be highly deceptive…
Useless trivia: Marichal won 25 or more games three times (1963, 1966, 1968), but got _no_ CYA votes those three years (blame Koufax and Gibson), as there was only a first-place vote till 1970.
Run support (average MLB RS for both pitchers’ careers was 4.1):
Marichal – 4.7 RS/9
Drysdale – 4.1 RS/9
I don’t think that explains all of the difference in win % for these two. The biggest thing I see is that Drysdale had far more no-decisions than Marichal.
Lawrence: If Drysdale had been the Giants ace and Marichal had played second fiddle to Sandy Koufax, would their narratives be at least partially switched?
@70/bstar,
The difference in run support between these two isn’t as great as you state; I think you have to factor in Dodger Stadium into Drysdale’s run support (he pitched there from 1962-1969), and how it killed offense, esp. in the 2nd ‘dead ball era’ of 1963-68.
The Giants had a lineup of Mays, McCovey, Cepeda, Jim Ray Hart, Bobby Bonds (+ others) for a good part of Marichal’s career. But the Dodgers also had some solid lineups over Drysdale’s Dodger career, starting with Snider/ Hodges/ /Campanella/ Furillo/ Reese/ Gilliam in the mid/late 50s, then by the ealy 60s the Davises/ Frank Howard/ Ron Fairly/ Roseboro/ Wills.
Granted, his last few years, the Dodgers offense was quite weak, but I think that Drysdale had some pretty good offenses supporting him most of his career.
Marichal vs. Drysdale Head to head:
5/19/61: LA 8, SF 7 ; Drysdale 5 IP, 2ER ; Marichal 7 1-3 IP, 4ER
9/ 4/61: Drysdale CG-SHO, Marichal L, 4 1-3 IP, 4R, 3ER
9/ 9/61: SF 9, LA 6 ; Marichal 3 1-3 IP, 1ER (injured) ; Drysdale 6 1-3 IP, 6ER
6/11/63: Marichal CG-SHO, Drysdale L, 8 IP, 3ER
6/19/63: Marichal W, 7 2-3 IP, 3R, 1ER ; Drysdale L, 4 1-3 IP, 6R, 4ER
8/30/63: Drysdale CG-W, 1ER ; Marichal L, 6 IP, 2ER
9/ 7/63: Marichal CG-W, 3R, 2ER ; Drysdale L, 6 IP, 4ER
4/29/65: Drysdale CG-W, 1ER ; Marichal L, 6 IP, 2ER
6/15/65: Marichal CG-W, 1ER ; Drysdale CG-L, 2ER
6/28/65: Marichal CG-SHO, Drysdale CG-L, 5R, 1ER
5/ 3/66: Marichal CG-W, 1ER ; Drysdale L, 6IP, 4ER
5/17/66: LA 2, SF 1 (13) ; Marichal 10 IP, 1ER; Drysdale 9 IP, 1R, 0ER
6/12/66: Marichal CG-W, 2ER ; Drysdale L, 5 1-3 IP, 2ER
8/27/66: Marichal CG-W, 2ER ; Drysdale L, 6 IP, 3ER
7/ 8/67: Marichal CG-W, 4ER ; Drysdale L, 4 2-3 IP, 6ER
8/ 1/68: Marichal CG-SHO, Drysdale L, 8 IP, 2ER
Marichal: 10-3 (9-0 CG, 3 SHO), Drysdale 3-10 (3-2 CG, 0 SHO)
O B S # 57:
I vaguely recall that Bill James wrote up in one of abstracts or compendiums something to the effect that Drysdale pitched poorly in “big” games. In the games you’ve listed, his ERA appears to be approximately 3.25 – not so bad considering the SF Giants’ lineup of that period
James devoted an entire chapter (31) of The Politics of Glory to Drysdale. Some excerpts:
“Drysdale pitched 80 games (75 starts) in the heat of a pennant race…his performance is a mixed bag. Drysdale helped carry the Dodgers down the stretch in ’63, ’65, and ’66, helped them blow it in ’61 and ’62, and pitched badly down the stretch in ’59, although the Dodgers won anyway.”
Drysdale had a 3.13 ERA in those 80 games (512 IP).
Breaking it down further, James looked at games against the Dodgers’ chief rival in each of the 6 seasons mentioned above; he didn’t pitch notably well in those games, with a 3.74 ERA in 248 IP.
Then he looked at games against key rivals in Aug-Sept only. “Twelve times Drysdale had a chance to beat the most critical opponent in the heat of a pennant race. He never won; never pitched particularly well without winning.” He went 0-6 with 6 no decisions, ERA of 5.33 in 83 IP.
David H @ 69:
I’ve never been a believer in the myth of “clutch” (trumpets blaring, broadcaster felatio), however, if you have the pill in your hand in a ML baseball game, you have a distinct advantage over the guy holding the bat (66.5 % success rate on average?). For a guy like Drysdale to fail extraordinarily (barring injury)like that, is a total collapse.
I’ve seen talented guys like Edmonds and Rolen go 1 for 30 (combined) in a post-season series and hit the cover off the ball at other times. That’s a small sample size and understandable. But, if you have the ball in your hands, you’re in control, for the most part, of the event’s outcome.
Drysdale wouldn’t be the first to disappoint on a big stage; I’m sure he won’t be the last.
Paul E @80:
Well, you’re in control to some extent, but you’re still at the mercy of your offensive support, your defensive support, and plain ol’ luck. Drysdale did pitch reasonably well in the WS, that should count, too, when discussing his performance in clutch games. Not that I’m advocating Drysdale for the CoG; I don’t think he’s particularly close.
@67/Paul E,
For the years you listed, the NL ERA was about 3.50 (I didn’t weight innings/year), so a 3.25 ERA by Drysdale in these games is decent but not close to outstanding.
That should say Marichal: 10-3 (9-0 CG, 3 SHO), Drysdale 3-10 (3-2 CG, 1 SHO)
Killebrew, Drysdale, Allen
Whitaker, Killebrew, Allen
Perry, McCovey, Marichal
Biggio from the holdovers
EMurray from the holdovers
Drysdale from the newcomers — one of the few HOFers who was married to a HOFer (basketball player Ann Myers); he worked the White Sox TV booth with Hawk Harrelson before Harrelson was promoted and fired Tony La Russa
Ron Santo, Bobby Grich, Dick Allen
All first basemen this time:
– Harmon Killebrew
– Eddie Murray
– Willie McCovey
They rank by the JAWS HOF-evaluator 19th, 14th, and 12th respectively. KIllebrew ranks ahead of 8 HOF 1bmen (two BBWAA choices, Perez and Terry).
Biggio, Whitaker, Allen
I find it odd that so many are voting for Killebrew despite his pedestrian WAR totals for such a long career(just over 60 overall). Only twice did he reach 6+ WAR and his low avg. plus SLG is an odd mix.
Lofton, Santo, Smoltz
For 26 years the career home run leaderboard read Aaron, Ruth, Mays, Robinson, Killebrew. That leaves an impression.
Plus, at least as of 1999, Bill James had him ranked 63rd on his list of the top 100 players of all time. Plus his value took a fairly significant hit when Washington/Minnesota asked him to do some stuff that he probably shouldn’t have been doing, like playing in the outfield or third base, especially late in his career.
Perry, Martinez, Grich
Perry, McCovey, Smoltz
Perry, who seems to be taking a long time for a guy with 90+ WAR – are people actively avoiding him due to the spitter? His career value seems to be well into automatic territory
Grich, my choice for out of the 2B logjam (I’ve voted for most of them at one time or another). Unless he wins, I can see him getting lost in the coming ballot crunch.
Santo, always destined to just barely lose these voting things, apparently.
Perry, to win
Lofton, to stay on ballot
Santo, for more rounds
Subject to change
Edgar, Whitaker, Marichal.
Whitaker, Santo, Killebrew
Perry, Santo, Murray (likely for the last time until there’s a redemption round)
Is this a comment on your personal preference for Murray or on his likelihood to stay on the ballot? It seems that in every election, Murray gets no more than one or two of the first 40 or so votes, but the late voters creep in and save him in the last day or two. I could see him sticking around through the upcoming glut of superstars.
Both – with the guys that are coming up I’m going to find it hard to keep voting for Murray, and I’m guessing that I’m part of the deciding factor on whether or not he gets 10%. Even this round I had a tough time voting for Murray over Marichal. Perhaps he stays on with the “top 9” return rule.
@79/Bryan,
Yeah, I’ve noticed the same thing about Murray’s support – I hadn’t checked the COG 1937 ballot for a few days when the results were announced, so I figured he was gone, but lo and behold! – he got more than enough votes those last few days to exceed 10%.
Drysdale illustrates very well the difference between the actual HOF and our COG – he’s a decent HOF selection, but an also-ran for COG consideration.
Marichal, Santo, Smoltz
Vote:
Lofton
Perry
Whitaker
Perry, Grich, Whitaker
Drysdale is the only newcomer I seriously considered, but I think he falls just short of COG.
Perry, Lofton, Ryno
Perry, Lofton, Biggio (next year, Craig, next year)
A note about Mazeroski: I grew up in Pittsburgh while Maz was on the BBWAA ballot, and I took it as a matter of faith that he was being snubbed. Now that I’m older, even as I am happy for Maz that he is in the Hall, I’m pretty well convinced that he doesn’t belong there. An OPS+ of 84 just doesn’t cut it, no matter what other factors there are. That said I still might put him on the Pirates Mount Rushmore (cough, cough).
I’m actually coming around just a little bit on the idea that maybe there is also room for a few players who maybe aren’t among the greatest ever but who were “very good and…” if part of their story is an integral part of the long term narrative- from Maz to Tinker to Evers to Chance to maybe even someone like Lefty O’Doul who was a terrific minor league pitcher before he turned in a few really good seasons in the majors in the outfield after a 309 hit season in the high minors and before a long and successful career as a minor league manager that was sandwiched around his playing a huge role in getting baseball started in Japan.
There’s room for umpires and managers and executives and writers and owners. Maybe we can find a way to honor some players who were colorful or stood out in some way or just have a really interesting story without saying they were the greatest ever.
Moe Berg for the Hall of Fame!
The Hall of the Very Interesting. The standard might be those about whom an interesting special exhibit at Cooperstown could be put together. Maz is unusual in having two separate important claims to great fame — one of the great defensive second basemen of all time (#2 to Joe Gordon in b-ref’s career Rfield since 1900) as well as the hitter of the only walk-off homer in a World Series Game 7.
And we could have a “legends” wing and a “great story” wing and a “characters” wing…
And a Friends of Frankie Frisch wing.
You mean there isn’t one already?
Put Jim Deshaies in the Hall!
Smoltz, Marichal, Drysdale
Perry, Killebrew and Mazeroski not that Maz deserves it but I can never forget the joy he brought me as a youngster who was recovering from a broken leg and out of school so I got to see his world series winning homer live. What a thrill.
Whitaker, Biggio and Killer.
For the 1936 election, I’m voting for:
-Ryne Sandberg
-Edgar Martinez
-John Smoltz
Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Perry
-Biggio
-Whitaker
-Grich
-Lofton
-Santo
-McCovey
-Murray
McCovey, Whitaker, Dick Allen
Killebrew, Martinez, Smoltz
Gaylord Perry, Edgar Martinez, Willie McCovey
Santo
Sandberg
D. Allen
Gaylord Perry, John Smoltz, Edgar Martinez
Initial vote (same as last round) :
1. Ron Santo (7.0 WAR/162 during 10-yr peak of 1963-72)
2. Juan Marichal (7.1 WAR/162 during 7-yr peak of 1963-69)
3. Gaylord Perry (5.9 WAR/162 during 13-yr peak of 1964-76)
A rough, very flexible ranking of other candidates:
4. Kenny Lofton (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1992-99)
5. Willie McCovey (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1963-70)
6. Bobby Grich (6.6 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1972-83)
7. Dick Allen (6.6 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1964-72)
8. Ryne Sandberg (6.2 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1984-92)
9. Craig Biggio (5.8 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1991-99)
10. Lou Whitaker (5.5 WAR/162 during 15-yr peak of 1979-93)
11. Harmon Killebrew (5.3 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1959-70)
12. Eddie Murray (5.7 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1978-86)
13. Edgar Martínez (6.4 WAR/162 during 7-yr peak of 1995-2001)
14. John Smoltz (5.8 WAR/162 during 5-yr peak of 1995-99)
15. Don Drysdale (5.4 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1957-64)
Perry, Santo, Marichal
Perry, Lofton, Drysdale
Please change my vote from:
Perry, Sandberg, Santo
to:
Murray, Sandberg, Santo
Thanks.
Perry, Santo, Lofton
A bit late catching up on this round, I’ve been on holiday. So I only know Don Drysdale by name, I wasn’t born until 1980. But looking at his page, I find a few interesting things:
1) His batting added 6 WAR to his career total. His 1965 is crazy for a pitcher – .300 BA in 138 PA and 7 homers. That’s the best pitcher batting season I can remember seeing, although I don’t pay attention to those really ever. Anyone got some other notables to talk about?
2) His career was solid and sometimes spectacular, although I guess he played second fiddle to Koufax for a good few years. But that’s an interesting comparison – looking at Drysdale’s career, he was pretty much done at 31 although it took him a year to admit it. All a quick search found was that his ‘chronically sore shoulder’ caused him to quit. Player-value wise, though, Drysdale had as much as Koufax through age 30 season, although the dominant peak is of course what’s most closely associated with Sandy’s greatness. Anyway, my point is that if Drysdale took the precautious route and retired after age 30 without having a bad season, would we be giving him the same credit for ‘what could have been’ that Koufax is going to likely get starting next election?
In 1925 Walter Johnson batted .433 with 107 PA. That’s the highest BA for a player with 100+ PA.
Wow, if Walter was a borderline CoG choice for me before this, this puts him over the top 😉
Also, I’m not a PI subscriber so I can’t see the top 10 results, but sorting for pitchers since 1901 I see that Drysdale’s 1965 is 13th for OPS+. His .300 BA is not even in the top 20. Curious if anyone is interested in fleshing out some of the greater pitching batting seasons. I know, I know, I can google search for articles on the topic, but this is a discussion blog so I want to encourage discussion.
I’ve gone through this many times before. Here’s how you can get the top 10 results. Go back to your PI run and enter OPS+ equal to or greater than 134 and make your run in ascending order. You will get the top 11 in reverse order. Just do it.
Greatest hitting season by a pitcher?
For more than 25 PA, the highest OPS goes to:
Hal McKain
In 1930, of course.
.419 .486 .710 1.195
4 triples in 31 PA !
____________________
Step it up to 50 PA and we have the woefully underutilized Micah Owings in 2007
.333 .349 .683 1.033
12 XBH in 64 PA, as a rookie.
____________________
Walter’s .433 season tops the list at 75 and 100 PA, but…
____________________
at 125 PA, a few OPS ticks behind the Big Train is Don Newcombe in 1955:
.359 .395 .632 1.028
7 home runs in 125 PA
That’s 2.5 WAR on offense.
Only Wes Ferrell’s 2.6 in 1937 tops that WAR.
He had 54 more PA.
They both pinch hit at a similar ratio to their PA.
Thanks Richard, that’s obvious in retrospect. I’ve probably overlooked it many times because I never use the PI. I feel like the new kid in class who put his hand up too soon, oops.
Bells:
Wes Ferrell used to be regarded as the greatest hitting pitcher, for a guy who only pitched and pinch hit. A fellow named Ruth racked up 5.6 batting WAR in his first three seasons on the mound (397 PAs), so they decided he was more valuable playing day-to-day.
Terry Forster doesn’t quite qualify, but he hit an insane .397/.413/.474 in 86 plate appearances for his mostly relief career. He was kind of a poor man’s Rich Gossage, but chunkier.
I also remember Fernando V. and Fernandez Sid as very capable with the lumber.
okay, when I posed that question I didn’t even think of Ruth, d’oh. I should just quit posting in this discussion, haha.
Killebrew, McCovey & Murray
McCovey, Kilebrew, Perry
Santo, Grich, and Drysdale needs a little help to move on.
Well anyway, here’s my vote, based on cumulative rankings of 3 measures – WAR, WAA+ and JAWS as a preliminary assessment. A ranking of ‘3’ means the player was #1 in each category, a ranking of ’45’ means he was ranked 15th of the players on the ballot in each category.
Perry 3 (1 1 1)
Grich 8 (3 2 3)
Santo 9 (4 3 2)
Whitaker 12 (2 4 6)
Martinez 19 (6 5 8)
Smoltz 22 (5 6 11)
Sandberg 23 (9 9 5)
Lofton 24 (8 7 9)
McCovey 30 (12 8 10)
Marichal 31 (13 14 4)
Murray 31 (7 12 12)
Drysdale 32 (10 15 7)
Biggio 34 (11 10 13)
Allen 40 (15 11 14)
Killebrew 42 (14 13 15)
A case could be made for Whitaker to be included in the top 3 – Grich, Whitaker and Santo are real tight by these measures, and all were pretty underappreciated during and since their careers. But they’re all safe on our ballot, and they’ll be blown off the charts the next several elections, so I won’t split hairs and just vote for the top 3:
Perry
Grich
Santo
Whitaker, Lofton, Martinez.
Murray, Lofton, Allen
Thanks Paledave.
No idea that a big tub of goo could hit almost .400.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uL20VgJ7JM8
McCovey, Killebrew, Sandberg.
Murray, McCovey and Smolyz
Once again, all of the on-the bubble COG candidates have climbed off the edge of the cliff. It’s magic.
BTW, I know that I’ve mixed my metaphors horribly.
Not necessarily a mixed metaphor — I think I once saw a magical cliff bubble in a Road Runner cartoon.
I’m gratified to see that, thanks to another late surge, Eddie Murray has survived yet again. I haven’t voted for him in a while, but he was one of my favorites back in the ’80s.
Anyone have a sense of why Murray has maintained such a consistent level of support and Dave Winfield didn’t? In terms of counting stats you could scarcely find two all-time greats who are more identical. WAR has Winfield as much the stronger offensive player, while Murray hurt his team in the field a lot less.
Murray hasn’t really had significantly more support than Winfield, he had just had better timing. Murray came onto the ballot in 1956, with Molitor the only other strong new candidate that year, and he drew more than 25% of the vote his first two years, which gave him a bit of a cushion.
Winfield came on the ballot in 1951, along with Blyleven, Dwight Evans, and Buddy Bell; in addition to having more competition from birth year-mates than Murray, the holdover list was longer by the ’51 ballot. So Winfield never cracked 25% and was always on the bubble.
@127/DH,
Just as he did in real-life MLB, Steady Eddie just keeps chugging along here on our COG votes, never getting big vote totals, but getting enough to stay on the ballot. It’s uncanny.
Correcting myself @127, the holdover list for the 1951 ballot was actually smaller (by 1 player) than the list for the 1956 ballot.
For what it’s worth, Adam D.’s Hall of Stats gives Murray a 123 Hall Rating. That’s right around the threshold of a COG-level player, if you use Adam’s formula strictly and nothing else to determine who was a COG player (though even Adam himself doesn’t use his formula in that strict a fashion). In comparison, Winfield gets a 113 Hall Rating, which is not as much of a COG-type number. I don’t think we’ve inducted anybody yet with a Hall Rating under 126 (Gwynn, Palmer).
Tim Raines was also at 126
Well, assuming Frank Robinson wins next year, Gibson and Koufax join the clump, with Aaron, Clemente, Kaline (Aparicio and Cash) on deck.
Some of us are likely to cut the umbilicus on our guys.
________________
Here’s something:
The only season of Roger Maris’ career that he did NOT receive an intentional walk:
yes, That season.
Let’s not forget that in 1961 Maris hit just ahead of Mantle for almost the entire season.
Sandberg, Murray, Perry