Circle of Greats: Redemption Round #7

This Circle of Greats (COG) vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle, but only to select two players who will be restored back on to the main ballot after having been previously been dropped from eligibility.  This seventh “redemption round” (we’ve been holding such redemption votes interspersed among the regular voting rounds every tenth voting round or so) gives voters a chance to reconsider past candidates who have previously fallen off the regular induction ballots.

In this round you may include on your three-man ballot any major league baseball player who was born between 1946 and 1969 and has neither been elected to the Circle of Greats nor is currently on the 1907 COG ballot (there will be another redemption round next week for players born between 1908 and 1945).  As usual, you must vote for three and only three players to cast a qualifying ballot.  The two players who appear on the most ballots will be restored to eligibility for the next regular, induction round of COG voting.  If your personal favorite doesn’t come in the top two this time, do not despair — he will have other chances in future redemption rounds to be held from time to time.

There are many players who are eligible for your votes in this redemption round. As an optional aid to your selection process, I’ve put together two spreadsheets, one for pitchers and one for everyday players, that include some stats for a substantial selection of relevant players: Redemption Round 7 Optional Hitter List and Redemption Round 7 Optional Pitcher List. The spreadsheet with everyday players includes the 150 everyday players born between 1946 and 1969 who accumulated at least 25 Wins Above Replacement (baseball-reference version). The list is in order of career regular season plate appearances, from high to low. The pitcher list includes 76 pitchers born between 1946 and 1969 who accumulated at least 25 pitching Wins Above Replacement. That list is ordered based on a formula of career regular season IP+(5*SV), intended to represent a quantity measure of pitching but one that does not banish relief pitchers to the bottom of the list. Again, these spreadsheets represent entirely discretionary lists — your full options are as stated: all major leaguers born between 1946 and 1969 who have not been inducted into the COG and are not on the 1907 ballot that is also the subject of a vote this week.

The deadline to cast your ballots in this redemption round is Monday night, December 29 at 11:59PM EDT. You can change your votes until 11:59PM EDT on Saturday night, December 27.  You can keep track of the vote tally in this redemption round here: COG Redemption Round 7 Vote Tally.

As mentioned above, we will have another redemption vote next week that will cover players born between 1908 and 1945.

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ajnrules
ajnrules
9 years ago

Bret Saberhagen
Kevin Appier
Rafael Palmeiro

ajnrules
ajnrules
9 years ago
Reply to  ajnrules

Forgot about Cone. Going to change my vote to

Bret Saberhagen
Kevin Appier
David Cone

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  ajnrules

@15;

All three starred for the Royals within about a ten year period – coincidence?

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Dwight Evans, Mark McGwire, Willie Randolph

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Plate Appearances per Win Above Average PaWaa: 207.0 … (7660) Mark McGwire 254.4 … (8090) Bobby Bonds 265.0 … (9461) Willie Randolph 270.7 … (8553) Keith Hernandez 287.6 … (8283) Will Clark 292.3 … (8271) Robin Ventura 308.9 … (10009) Buddy Bell 311.6 … (8133) Cesar Cedeno 311.9 … (10228) Graig Nettles 322.2 … (10569) Dwight Evans 322.2 … (8344) Ron Cey 332.0 … (9063) John Olerud 353.4 … (9896) Sammy Sosa 362.6 … (9537) Jeff Kent 373.9 … (10769) Andre Dawson 400.2 … (12046) Rafael Palmeiro _____________________________________ Through each season closest to PA thresholds… PaWaa 7000: 201.6 … Mark… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

FWIW, Nettles was born in 1944 & is not eligible this time around.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Well I had to make at least one mistake, pressing all those buttons. Glad someone is checking….

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Innings Pitched per Win Above Average (IpWaa): 69.6 … (2563) Bret Saberhagen 81.4 … (2899) David Cone 84.5 … (2595) Kevin Appier 91.0 … (2392) Ron Guidry 93.1 … (2895) Dave Steib 98.9 … (2592) Jimmy Key 111.8 … (3197) Chuck Finley 116.7 … (2801) Dwight Gooden 124.7 … (3130) Orel Hershiser 125.6 … (2963) Mark Langston 126.6 … (2836) Frank Viola 157.0 … (3439) David Wells 210.5 … (4188) Frank Tanana ____________________________ IpWaa 1500: 53.6 … Kevin Appier 64.2 … Bret Saberhagen 65.5 … Dave Stieb 71.4 … Ron Guidry 72.4 … Frank Tanana 74.1 … Orel Hershiser 98.1… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

McGwire and Palmeiro are no’s for me because I feel that without steroids they wouldn’t be in the discussion. The guys that I gave the most serious thought to were Dwight Evans, Andre Dawson, Buddy Bell, Ted Simmons, Willie Randolph, Thurman Munson, Dave Cone and Bret Saberhagen. I think they all (except Dawson) got a raw deal from the HOF but as I said I also don’t see a strong case for any of them for the COG, at least as of this moment.

Buddy Bell, Andre Dawson, David Cone

billh
billh
9 years ago

Palmeiro, Mattingly, Munson

David P
David P
9 years ago

Bell, Randolph, Dwight Evans

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Dan Quisenberry, Ted Simmons, and Dwight Evans

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Kent, Steib, Sheffield

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
9 years ago

Mattingly, Guidry, Munson.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Dwight Evans
David Cone
Dave Stieb

Cone and Evans were obvious choices for me; I don’t think they got a good shot their first chances, so I’d like to see them back. Stieb DID get a sort-of-fair shot once; he managed 8 votes, but in the infamous round in which we had 81 electors – the ONLY round in COG history in which 8 votes didn’t keep you on the ballot. I’d like to see him get another chance with a different electorate.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

ARGH!!!! I didn’t mean to nest this comment here; I WAS going to reply something about how Guidry, the other player mentioned on this ballot, was having his second-straight year leading the AL in ERA and FIP. Then I decided that was unnecessary, so I reloaded the page. But for SOME dumb reason, it STILL nested my comment up here. Stupid technology.

brp
brp
9 years ago

Willie Randolph
Dwight Evans
David Cone

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago

Buddy Bell
Dwight Evans

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

My bad.

Buddy Bell
Dwight Evans
Ted Simmons

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Randolph, Dawson, Saberhagen

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Best WAR seasons. Cone. Sabes . Appier . Stieb 7.2 … 9.7 … 9.2 … 7.9 7.0 … 8.0 … 8.1 … 7.7 6.8 … 7.3 … 6.0 … 7.0 6.8 … 5.5 … 5.6 … 6.8 5.6 … 5.1 … 5.2 … 5.8 5.2 … 3.8 … 4.6 … 4.9 5.1 … 3.7 … 4.5 … 4.5 4.4 … 3.6 … 3.5 … 4.2 4.0 … 2.9 … 3.3 … 3.3 3.8 … 2.7 … 2.8 … 2.2 2.8 … 2.2 … 1.8 … 1.6 1.9 … 2.0 … 1.4 … 1.4 1.3 … 1.5 … 0.3 … 0.1… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

4 … 1 … 2 … 3
4 … 2 … 1 … 3
3 … 1 … 4 … 2
1 … 4 … 3 … 1
2 … 4 … 3 … 1
1 … 4 … 3 … 2
1 … 4 … 2 … 2
1 … 3 … 4 … 2
1 … 4 … 2 … 2
1 … 3 … 2 … 4
1 … 2 … 3 … 4
2 … 1 … 3 … 3
2 … 1 … 3 … 4
2 … 1 … X … X

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Cone, Will Clark, Dwight Evans

RonG
RonG
9 years ago

Dwight Evans
Darrell Evans
Ron Guidry

bells
bells
9 years ago

Okay, I just retooled my spreadsheet to separate redemption guys by birth year, so I’m ready to roll. Here’s my methodology – I compare players on 4 slightly different metrics, then aggregate the rankings of the players on the ballot. So if a player ranks first on all 4 metrics, they get a 4, if they rank 10th on all 4, they get a 40, etc. The four metrics are: WAR – measurement of value above replacement players; has seemed to be the most widely discussed ‘advanced’ omnibus measurement of player value. WAA+ – measurement of value above average players;… Read more »

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  bells

Also, if anyone is interested, here are the rest of the guys I measured: 11. Sammy Sosa 47 12. Bobby Bonds 48 13. Gary Sheffield 54 13. Chuck Finley 54 15. Kevin Appier 56 16. Darrell Evans 71 17. John Olerud 73 17. Orel Hershiser 73 19. Chet Lemon 75 20. Will Clark 76 21. Robin Ventura 79 22. Cesar Cedeno 91 23. Dwight Gooden 93 24. Jeff Kent 95 25. Frank Tanana 98 26. Ron Cey 102 27. Jose Cruz 108 28. Mark Langston 112 29. Jack Clark 115 30. David Wells 118 30. Kirby Puckett 118 32. Kenny… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  bells
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

It looks like Goldschmidt tagged him on the replay.

Of course, when Moyer began his big-league career, neither Colorado nor Arizona had teams after the first of April.

Bix
Bix
9 years ago

John Olerud, Ted Simmons, Rich Gossage

Mike G.
Mike G.
9 years ago

Cone, Saberhagen, Gossage

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
9 years ago

Jim Abbott
Curtis Pride
Jim Eisenreich

Artie Z
Artie Z
9 years ago

Palmeiro, Dwight Evans, Keith Hernandez

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Through 18 ballots cast (my vote @31 up above):

8 – Dwight Evans
7 – David Cone
5 – Willie Randolph
3 – Bret Saberhagen
2 – Buddy Bell, Andre Dawson, Goose Gossage, Ron Guidry, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire, Thurmon Munson, Rafael Palmeiro, Ted Simmons, Dave Stieb
1 – Jim Abbott, Kevin Appier, Will Clark, Jim Eisenreich, Darrell Evans, Keith Hernandez, Jeff Kent, John Olerud, Curtis Pride, Dan Quisenberry, Gary Sheffield

Mo
Mo
9 years ago

Steve Rogers, Dave Steib, Orel Hersheiser

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Ted Simmons, Dale Murphy, Keith Hernandez.

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

Randolph, Cone, Saberhagen

Kirk
Kirk
9 years ago

Dw Evans, B Bell and J Kent

PP
PP
9 years ago

Dewey, Stieb, Saberhagen

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

Trying to find anybody on here I’d actually want to put in the COG is a challenge. Using “better than Murray/Reuschel” as a bar… I got Randolph at 4.31 (using my averaging method) and I tend to agree with RFIELD and RBASE. He was just not much of a peak player and averaging 4 WAR over 16 seasons is impressive but he was rarely in the discussion for best players in the league. OPS+ 104 will do that. Saberhagen I have a 4.71, also just under my line. He was a fairly inconsistent pitcher in his peak years with his… Read more »

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

aaand I skipped Bell (4.69). Gah. I guess I’ll take him over Randolph if you don’t mind birtelcom

PP
PP
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Personally, I don’t think any of these guys are getting in. I like to pick a few faves to see if they’ll get another chance. While I’d like to see Dewey make the HOF, it’s never going to happen and probably shouldn’t. Obviously, the COG is another level up from that.

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Dwight Evans, Willie Randolph, Mark McGwire

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Using my systems noted above, Saberhagen and Cone stand out amongst the pitchers.
Saberhagen had better monster years, Cone more good years overall.
I take Cone.

Randolph stands out for me amongst position players.

Evans and Bell are remarkably similar.
I’ll go with Bell, because Evans is in the lead, blocking Cone and Randolph
_________________

Vote:

Buddy Bell
David Cone
Willie Randolph

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

A morning update, through Voomo above @42 (including mosc’s vote change above @40):

11 – Dwight Evans
9 – David Cone
8 – Willie Randolph
6 – Bret Saberhagen
5 – Buddy Bell
4 – Dave Stieb
3 – Andre Dawson, Mark McGwire, Ted Simmons
2 – Goose Gossage, Ron Guidry, Keith Hernandez, Jeff Kent, Don Mattingly, Thurmon Munson, Rafael Palmeiro
1 – Jim Abbott, Kevin Appier, Will Clark, Jim Eisenreich, Darrell Evans, Orel Hershiser, Dale Murphy, John Olerud, Curtis Pride, Dan Quisenberry, Steve Rogers, Gary Sheffield

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

My vote @41 has been tallied incorrectly. I voted for Dwight Evans, not Darrell Evans.

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

If I recall correctly, Roy Rogers was born at about second base of Riverfront Stadium (before the park was built, obviously)

TeddyBB
TeddyBB
9 years ago

Cone, Dawson, Stieb

Josh
Josh
9 years ago

Goose Gossage, David Cone, Don Mattingly

I like Willie Randolph, but i’m surprised to see him with as many votes so far as he does. In my mind he’s not a Hall of Fame talent.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Christmas, everyone! Hope you have a great day!

One more update, through Josh’s @49 (including latefortheparty’s correction @46):

12 – Dwight Evans
11 – David Cone
8 – Willie Randolph
6 – Buddy Bell, Bret Saberhagen
5 – Dave Stieb
4 – Andre Dawson, Ted Simmons
3 – Goose Gossage, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire
2 – Ron Guidry, Keith Hernandez, Jeff Kent, Thurmon Munson, Rafael Palmeiro
1 – Jim Abbott, Kevin Appier, Will Clark, Jim Eisenreich, Darrell Evans, Orel Hershiser, Dale Murphy, John Olerud, Curtis Pride, Dan Quisenberry, Steve Rogers, Gary Sheffield

The Diamond King
The Diamond King
9 years ago

Cone, Saberhagen, McGwire

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
9 years ago

Cone, Palmiero, Dwight Evans Went with highest WAR pitcher, infielder, and outfielder. Feel any of them can be HOF (borderline) but COG cases are iffy. Saberhagen and Appier were brittle high peak guys a few steps below Cone and Dean/Ferrell. Randolph and B. Bell are not really “great” (lots of 2B ahead of Randolph and for 3B I prefer Nettles). McGwire has the rate stat advantage but 1600 hits for a career shows his limitations (have to give Raffy a bit more natural skill/durability credit for 3000 hits and 500 HR). I like Simmons but with Dickey/Campanella on the ballot… Read more »

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

What exactly is the problem with Andre Dawson? Anybody? In his prime he had a pretty complete toolset and as he aged he remained a durable and productive bat. His .323 career OBP is pretty low but he was quite a slugger with 400+ home runs in some offensively challenged years. Dwight Evans stellar .370 OBP was mostly in a park that was much friendlier. Dewey was a good fielder but he was still a corner outfielder. Dawson at his peak was a star center fielder. During ’80 to ’83 when both were stars WAR says Dawson put up 4… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

There’s nothing wrong with Dawson. On this particular nook of the baseball-arguing-community, however, the trend seems to be to support those who have been overlooked by the egg-salad-eating sportswriter canon.

Dawson won an MVP in a 4.0 WAR year, and was the only candidate elected to the HOF on a ballot that included Blyleven, Raines, Larkin, Alomar, Trammell, and Edgar.

Dewey outdid him in Rbat 353-234, and is most commonly mistaken for Darrell Evans.

T-Bone
T-Bone
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

I never saw Dwight play in person but I did see Dawson. I was also at spring training the year he joined the Cubs. I realize it was just Ho Ho Kam park but Dawson stood a couple feet in front of the right field fence and threw ball after ball to home plate and every one of them was chest high on a line right to the catcher. He too had a great arm. Taking nothing away from Evans who also had a cannon, but I think Dawson’s arm is sometimes forgotten.

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Dawson’s .323 OBP is “pretty low” indeed — below the adjusted league norm for his time (.332). That’s the most important offensive tool in the kit, so that’s a pretty big deficit to start with when you’re arguing all-time greats. Terrific defensive CF before his knees went, but once he moved to RF, the arm can’t make up for the lack of mobility. And he wound up playing a lot more RF than CF in his career (1,281 vs. 1,027 games). I’m glad Dawson’s in the Hall. He did have a higher peak than Dewey, but that’s 4 great years.… Read more »

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Yes, Dawson did end up playing a season or two more in RF, but he should still be considered a centerfielder because he produced more value there than in right. No one considers Ernie Banks a first baseman because he played more career games there than at short.

The Hawk didn’t do a lot of position-switching during seasons, so we can get a pretty clear picture of how much value Dawson produced at both spots:

CF (1976-1983): 41 WAR
RF (’84-’92,’95): 25 WAR
DH (1993-1994): -2 WAR (#ohdear)

Dawson was a centerfielder.

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

bstar, I’m fine with calling Dawson a CF for most discussion purposes. I’m just noting that his position change widens the gap between his peak value and career value. You know I’m a bit contrary on the subject of peak value. There’s no dispute that Dawson’s 4-year peak was better than Evans’s. But Dewey makes up that gap in their respective next-ten-best years. Comparing their four best seasons, Dawson leads by 1.3 WAR per year. I’ve yet to hear a good explanation of why 1.3 WAR is worth more in a peak year than a non-peak year. Dawson’s peak was… Read more »

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

John, I’m not the guy to pick that fight with, in regards to peak vs. (number of good years). If you’ll recall, the discussion that spurred your “Do peak players create more pennants?” series involved Ryne Sandberg and Lou Whitaker. I was the one claiming that Lou’s run of good/very good years was just as impressive as Ryno alternating 7+ WAR years with barely above-average ones. There’s a similar dynamic w/ Dawson and Evans. So, I think we are on the same page there. Unless you’re actually stating that Dwight Evans was a better player than Dawson. The numbers don’t… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

For illustration:

Evans . Dawson
6.7 … 7.9
6.4 … 7.4
5.4 … 6.8
5.1 … 6.8
4.8 … 4.8
4.5 … 4.8
4.4 … 4.0
4.1 … 3.9
3.8 … 3.5
3.7 … 2.9
3.2 … 2.9
3.1 … 2.8
3.0 … 2.3
3.0 … 2.2
2.0 … 2.1
1.2 … 2.0
0.9 … -0.1
0.9 … -0.2
0.6 … -0.3
0.4 … -0.9
xxx … -1.1
_______________

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

One other thing these guys have in common is that the strike in ’81 interrupted great years from both Evans and Dawson.

1981 WAR, all players

1. Mike Schmidt, 7.7 WAR
2. Andre Dawson, 7.4 WAR
3. Dwight Evans, 6.7 WAR
4. Rickey Henderson, 6.6 WAR
5. Buddy Bell, 6.2 WAR

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Weird, birtelcom, but I almost attempted a sort of projection for the rest of ’81 for both Dawson and Evans. Instead of just prorating their stats to reflect their games played in a full season based on (games/team games), I was going to attempt to use a three-prior-years, 5-4-3 weighting for years N, N-1, N-2, etc. and use that for rest-of-season. But I decided it wasn’t worth the effort because the final number isn’t that important. My point is that a 9 or 10-WAR season capped with an MVP might have changed Dwight Evans’ narrative enough to make him look… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

birtelcom @78 — Using career rates to project shortened seasons would generally shortchange the player. Though perhaps you meant the established level proximate to the year in question, rather than career level. I just looked at the 40 best short seasons among retired players, defined as follows: 120 G or less, highest WAR per 162 games with at least 4.0 WAR. (Not necessarily shortened schedules, just years the player had 120 G or less.) I compared their WAR/162 for the short year against (a) their career average, and (b) the average of the year immediately before and after the short… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

bstar @72 — I wasn’t arguing with you, just explaining my focus on Dawson’s RF/CF game counts. Since his peak was short and in CF, while the rest of his career was long and mainly in RF, there is a bigger gap between Dawson’s peak value and career value than for most players with similar peak *or* career values. My initial reply to mosc was probably misguided. I was trying to make a statement about using peak value as shorthand for the player in whole — e.g., I think of Ernie Banks as a shortstop, and as a guy who… Read more »

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Dawson is one of those guys whose final few “hanging on” years really kick the crap out of his career WAA total. His final figure of 28.8 WAA looks decidedly non-COG worthy, but he lost 6.1 WAA in the last four years of his career as a bit part DH/corner outfielder. As with Biggio, we have to question whether we really care about a guy playing past his sell-by-date when teams were still willing to pay him millions to do so. Ignore those last four years and he passes Dwight Evans in WAA and moves into a virtual tie in… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

To RJ’s point…

Plate Appearances per Win Above Average

Career
322.2 … (10569) Dwight Evans
373.9 … (10769) Andre Dawson

PaWaa 7000
230.5 … Andre Dawson
264.7 … Dwight Evans

PaWaa 8000
243.0 … Andre Dawson
263.8 … Dwight Evans

PaWaa 9000
267.7 … Andre Dawson
273.7 … Dwight Evans

PaWaa 10,000
308.4 … Dwight Evans
308.7 … Andre Dawson

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

That wasn’t RJ’s point. His point was that if you only look at non-negative seasons, Dawson has 35.1 WAA and Evans has 34.8. Their career WAR, even before any adjustments, is also very close to even. Using just WAR and positive WAA, they really couldn’t be any closer in career value. If you’re going to try and make a case for Dewey actually being better than Dawson, you’re going to have to bring some numbers from outside of B-Ref and rWAR to do it. And we have generally just used B-Ref numbers all along, so I don’t see a reason… Read more »

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Honestly though, in my method of assessment, those two guys are tied in terms of their ranking (both get a 29, as seen in my comment upthread). I definitely vacillate between valuing peak or longevity, which I try to take into account by using multiple rankings, and I’m not sure how to use that as a tiebreaker. With all else being equal, I kind of feel like someone being more overlooked in his career (and after) is enough reason to choose to champion him. It’s a factor, not a major one, but enough of one to create a preference if… Read more »

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Apologies, Voomo. Your numbers above actually do illustrate RJ’s point very well. It’s the “less is more” part of your PaWaa numbers that sometimes confuse me.

J.R.
J.R.
9 years ago

Cone, Guidry, Munson

opal611
opal611
9 years ago

For Redemption Round 7, I’m voting for:

-Rafael Palmeiro
-Willie Randolph
-Andre Dawson

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago

Jim Abbott, Dave Parker, Dale Murphy

RJ
RJ
9 years ago

This seems about as good a place as any to note that today I watched the Dock Ellis film, “No-No: A Dockumentary”, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

A small note: I had no idea about the trade that sent Willie Randolph (on this ballot), Ellis and Ken Brett to the Yankees for a year of Doc Medich. I mean, I understand why the Pirates wanted to get rid of Ellis, but why throw Randolph into any deal? He’d just hit 339/.405/.479 in AAA as a twenty-year-old!

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

They had a 24 year old 2B named Rennie who was great on defense and had hit .291 and .286 the previous two years.

But yes, I certainly see your point.
Nobody else on the ’75 Chareston Charlies hit over .308.
Randolph was 14/0 stealing bases, had more walks than strikeouts, and a better fielding percentage than the other skill-infielders (Craig Reynolds and Bobby Valentine).

RJ
RJ
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Yeah, I did see that he may well have been blocked. But still… Obviously it’s difficult to ignore hindsight here.

Renaldo “Rennie” Stennett. All those names are unique in major league history.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago

I like the split of 1946-1969 and 1908-1945… although I have to stop myself from trying to vote for Dick Allen and Reggie Smith. Here’s my actual vote: Dwight Evans (1949), Ron Cey (1948), Gene Tenace (1946) I think Dewey is the best ‘1946-1969 born’ player off of the ballot, especially because I give extra credit for being overlooked by the HOF. I like Cey and Tenace for pretty much the same reason. Dave Stieb, too, but I can’t pick between Cey and Tenace, and I think Cone is probably better, anyhow. It’s really hard for me to pick any… Read more »

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

I feel like Cone and Saberhagen are clearly better than Appier and Stieb, and I think both belong in the COG discussion. The latter two belong in the HOF discussion even though they’ll never be so discussed by anyone with the power to get them in, but I think they fall short of the COG standard. Not by a lot though, no more than Ford, one of our very few somewhat dubious (to me) selections so far.

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

I want to change my vote from Randolph, Cone, Saberhagen to Randolph, Cone, and Munson.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

I just learned this about Dawson’s first (monster) year in Chicago: Andre Dawson played for the Expos until after the 1986 season, when he took a pay cut to sign with the Chicago Cubs. Dawson’s knee injuries were aggravated by playing on artificial turf in Montreal, and he hoped playing home games on grass at Wrigley Field would prolong his career. Dawson had campaigned for the Cubs to sign him during the offseason, but general manager Dallas Green resisted, insisting that the Cubs would start Brian Dayett in right field (Dawson had moved from center field to right field in… Read more »

bstar
9 years ago

I am always surprised when I see David Cone’s WAR and ERA+ in his days with the Mets. He seemed way more dominant than those numbers indicate. Dude was just filthy.

Cone, Dawson, Evans

Stephen
Stephen
9 years ago

Keith Hernandez, Dale Murphy, Bret Saberhagen

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
9 years ago

Dwight Evans, Willie Randolph, Keith Hernandez

PaulE
PaulE
9 years ago

Simmons, Dw Evans, Stieb

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago

RJ convinced me about Dawson — he’s about equivalent to Dewey, near the COG line and better than Killer at least on the current ballot. I was bitter when Dawson got elected to the hall, but I shouldn’t have been. He was a beast and he clearly deserved it. He just didn’t deserve it ahead of the guys he beat out. Trammell, Raines, and Edgar who are still outside looking in, Larkin and holy crap even *Blyleven*. If one or two of those others guys had made it along with him, I don’t think I would have felt the same… Read more »