Circle of Greats 1887 Balloting, Part 2

This post is for voting and discussion in the 104th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This is the second of two rounds adding to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1887. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1887-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1887-born candidates, with surnames beginning with letters J to Z, joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots. The first group of 1887-born candidates, with surnames beginning with letters A to I, were eligible to receive your votes in the previous round of balloting.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, August 23rd, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Friday, August 21st.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1887 Part 2 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1887 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The fourteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1887 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Pete Alexander (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Satchel Paige (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1887, J-Z surnames, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Cy Williams
Clyde Milan
Tillie Walker
Shoeless Joe Jackson
Bill Killefer
Heinie Zimmerman
Doc Johnston
Walter Schmidt

Pitchers (born in 1887, J-Z surnames, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Walter Johnson
Dick Rudolph

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David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

Alexander should have 3 rounds of eligibility, rather than 4 (he earned 4 rounds last time around, one of which is this round).

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

I believe 4 rounds is correct.

As stated in the post, the “fourteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility.

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Ah, yes, right; brain cramp on my part. Apologies – my family (which includes 2 young boys) is moving tomorrow, so I’m a bit frazzled at the moment.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 10: Al Todd debuted at age 30 and caught 752 games. Schmidt caught 734 games.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

1. Walter Johnson – Randy Johnson. Got it on my first guess.

oneblankspace
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Tommy John, 1979-80

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

5. Dick Rudolph – Sandy Koufax (1963 & 1965) and Lefty Grove (1930 & 1931).

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

2. Clyde Milan – Vince Coleman, who somehow managed 400 (actually 407) SB through age 26 with a .262 average.

Also, since it appears no one else is commenting right now, I’ll answer another.

7. Shoeless Joe Jackson – The answer, it appears, is someone I’ve never heard of: Adam Comoroksy of the Pirates, who had 23 3B and 47 2B in 1930.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

But wasn’t he in Dr. Zhivago? 🙂

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Whoops! In my head, I was thinking of it as “live-ball era” when I was looking it up.

The correct answer is oneblankspace’s below. I should’ve just immediately thought of that season without even HAVING to look it up. Argh.

oneblankspace
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Jackson’s question included Expansion Era, which would make it George Brett in 1979 (42 2B, 20 3B, and 23 HR for good measure)

oneblankspace
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Cy Williams: The Sultan of Swat, the Titan of Terror, the Colossus of Clout, the Colossus of Clout, the King of Crash, the Great Bambino. Or maybe just some babe named Ruth.

NL only: Hank Sauer

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#5 Sandy Koufax in 1963 and 1965.

oneblankspace
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doc Johnston question:

1966, Dick Allen 25-10-40 doesn’t quite work, but Donn Clendenon’s 22-10-28 does
1943, Rudy York 22-11-34

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 8: Andres Galaragga

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago

Doggonit, R.C.

A question I knew the answer to, and you gobbled it up two hours before I even knew it existed.

Actually, a pretty easy one. I don’t even understand the one on Tilly Walker.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Additional tidbit: Joe Jackson did not have a season with 100+ RBI until his 13th (and last) season. That makes him one of 23 players with at least 1 100+ RBI season and did not do so until his 13th season.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

6. Bill Killefer question: Muddy Ruel (his first such season was 1919, but I presume he counts as live ball era) and Mike Tresh.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question no. 4; Tony Phillips. His 102 HR were 1 more than Mickey Vernon.

MJ
MJ
8 years ago

Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander, Kevin Brown

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

A really tough ballot. I have two players more-or-less dead-even, and I’m going to go with the one I’ve voted for more times, rather than the newcomer. So (sorry for the plagiarism, MJ) here’s my ballot:

Walter Johnson
Pete Alexander
Kevin Brown

Andy
Andy
8 years ago

Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander, Shoeless Joe Jackson

Steven
Steven
8 years ago

Johnson, Alexander, and Goslin.

T-Bone
T-Bone
8 years ago

Reuschel, Wilhelm, D. Allen

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago

Grover Cleveland Alexander was terrific, but I think Walter Johnson was the most successful pitcher in baseball history. I think he should win this round, but I can’t think anyone actually listing the three players they believe most deserving from this list would leave off Alexander. (I know some will vote for different reasons.) I’m kind of hoping that we’ll be forced to a playoff round, since I think that’s exactly what should happen.

The Big Train, Pete, The Goose

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
8 years ago

Johnson, Jackson, Ashburn

koma
koma
8 years ago

Satchel Paige, Dennis Eckersley, Walter Johnson

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

Johnson, Alexander, Jackson

J.R.
J.R.
8 years ago

Shoeless, WaJo, and Winfield!

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
8 years ago

Walter Johnson, Dick Allen, Luis Tiant

Shoeless Joe looks pretty safe to make it until the next round, so I will try and protect two of my favorite holdovers. …and I know Alexander is better than any of the ‘bubble’ holdovers, but after he was runner-up to Collins last round I don’t think he has a real chance to win until after Ty Cobb.

Andy
Andy
8 years ago

Walter Johnson
Paige
Grover Alexander

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

At this moment, it’s not worth posting an update, since we’re only 12 votes in, but I have the time, so I’ll do it in sentence form instead.

Johnson has 10 votes through 11 ballots. Alexander is next with 6. That all but guarantees a victory for Johnson (not that there was any doubt).

Shoeless Joe has 4 votes (not bad for him), while Dick Allen, Kevin Brown, and Goose Goslin all have 2 each. The rest of the holdovers each have one, except for Andre Dawson, Gabby Hartnett, and Graig Nettles, who have yet to receive their first votes.

Brent
Brent
8 years ago

W. Johnson, Alexander and Goslin

Stephen
Stephen
8 years ago

W. Johnson, alexander, Goslin

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
8 years ago

Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander, Joe Jackson.

PaulE
PaulE
8 years ago

Allen, Johnson, Winfield

Chris C
Chris C
8 years ago

Walter Johnson
Joe Jackson
Dennis Eckersley

oneblankspace
8 years ago

W.Johnson
J.Jackson
H.Wilhelm

JEV
JEV
8 years ago

Johnson, Alexander, Hartnett

brp
brp
8 years ago

Shoeless Joe
Walter Johnson
Hoyt Wilhelm

Subject to change to keep people on ballot, maybe.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Through 20 ballots (brp @43):

19 – Walter Johnson*
===================75% (15)
11 – Grover Cleveland Alexander
===================50% (10)
8 – Shoeless Joe Jackson*
===================25% (5)
4 – Goose Goslin
3 – Dick Allen*, Hoyt Wilhelm*
2 – Kevin Brown, Dennis Eckersley*, Satchel Paige, Dave Winfield*
===================10% (2), TOP NINE
1 – Richie Ashburn*, Gabby Hartnett, Rick Reuschel*, Luis Tiant*
0 – Andre Dawson*, Graig Nettles*

Shard
Shard
8 years ago

Keeping players on the ballot:

Richie Ashburn – Satchel Paige – Goose Goslin

PP
PP
8 years ago

Johnson, Alexander, Jackson

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
8 years ago

Grover, Walter, and Joe. IMO, Satchel is the only other player in the conversation.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

I was going to cast my ballot but I’m still conflicted about Paige. The reasons FOR are pretty compelling and, I think, obvious. He didn’t play his first ML game until he was in his 40’s because of segregation. All kinds of contemporary players & sportswriters said he was the best ever and there are exhibition games and Negro League records to back up that claim. But- at least to my knowledge- he wasn’t eligible according to BBWAA standards. He doesn’t meet to COG qualifiers either. His ML record is impressive for his age but there are others with records… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

My thoughts are the same as they’ve been all along: while Paige was undoubtedly one of the all-time great pitchers, he’s on the ballot only because an exception to the eligibility requirements was made, an exception that I don’t think should have been made.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I basically agree with David Horwich. I wouldn’t have allowed the exception to begin with. Basically, if we’re going to allow him in, I don’t see why we shouldn’t ALSO be voting in Oscar Charleston and Bullet Joe Rogan and others (and frankly, we probably SHOULD be, as I’m certain they were better players than our most marginal COGers). The statement I disagree with is “Even with the exhibition and Negro League records his selection still requires a bit of a leap of faith.” His career ERA+ in known/recorded games is 204. That’s Mariano Rivera, but in a starting pitcher.… Read more »

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Doom: What are you referring to with this statement “His career ERA+ in known/recorded games is 204.”?

That’s clearly not his MLB ERA+. And I don’t see that BR provides an ERA+ for Negro League stats.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

I posted the link in the wrong thread on this post. The link to Paige’s Negro League stats (as recorded) are here:

http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/player.php?ID=1716

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Thanks Doom! I honestly have no idea what to make of Paige’s stats from the Negro Leagues and other organizations. We know so little about overall league quality. And there are also a lot of missing stats. Sometimes it’s not even clear where the stats were accumulated (BR sometimes lists the same stats for two different leagues for the same season). His SABR bio also notes that sometimes he was often used as the starter for 3-4 innings and then pulled (basically being used as a gate attraction).

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Concerning Paige, Same feelings as Doom and D. Horwich stated: an exception was made through redemption that circumvented the original criteria for candidates. Let’s say a similar argument had been started for Josh Gibson, as one of the best catchers of all-time. If we accepted Mexican League time served and records, appraisal from major league peers, obscure exhibition game records, etc. he would have been redeemed as well. I think that’s too slippery a slope and opens up options the BBWAA was not deliberating. To me, the purpose and intent of the COG was to choose the 120 best Major… Read more »

Joseph
Joseph
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Re Paige: I agree with the Daves and Dr. Doom above. Paige was a great pitcher, but for purposes of this exercise he doesn’t meet the requirements, and that makes it impossible to make a fair comparison.

Perhaps if did a different type of voting after we are done with this, he would be appropriate.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Well, I didn’t vote for Paige this round – it was actually an oversight, which I will correct – but I’ll make the counter-argument that I’ve made before. Paige’s white contemporaries widely viewed him as the equal or superior of any white pitcher of the era. Players like Hornsby and DiMaggio found Paige nearly unhittable. Unlike Paige, many of the players in the CoG were never deemed the greatest at their positions by contemporaries. Paige is not a slippery slope candidate. While he does not meet CoG criteria for MLB longevity, he did demonstrate his effectiveness in the Majors, albeit… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Best pitchers, by WAR

Age 41+, through 1953 (Paige’s last year, not including his 3 innings in 1965):

20.7 .. Jack Quinn
16.1 .. Cyclone Young
10.0 .. Satchel Paige
8.6 … Red Faber
7.1 … Dutch Leonard
5.5 … Connie Marrero
5.4 … G.C Alexander
5.2 … Ted Lyons
4.0 … Jesse Haines
3.5 … Mike Ryba
3.1 … Sam Jones
3.0 … Eddie Plank

Marrero was Paige’s contemporary.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Marrero complicates things even more for me. I had looked at him far earlier in the COG voting process but didn’t think of him regarding Paige. While his color may not have kept him from playing ML baseball, it’s clear that circumstances- and possibly prejudice- did. When he finally got a chance to play in the high minors he was past his mid-30’s & won 20+ games every year. Given a chance to pitch in the majors he put up seasons of 3+ WAR in his 40’s. That’s something that not a lot of pitchers have done- and a fair… Read more »

dr-remulak
dr-remulak
8 years ago

Johnson, Nettles, Winfield.

Kirk
Kirk
8 years ago

Johnson, Reuschel and Wilhelm

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Brief update:

Last round, the #3 vote-getter was Andre Dawson, with 8.

As of Kirk’s vote @50 (the 25th vote), Dawson has yet to receive a single vote. I find this fascinating.

Right now, Johnson’s the clear winner, Alexander’s between 50 and 75, Jackson’s between 25 and 50, and everyone with multiple votes is above 10% or in the top nine. Hartnett, Nettles, Tiant, and the aforementioned Dawson are the ones below the cut line, as of now.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

FWIW- JAWS SJ Jackson 57.4 Dawson 53.5 Hall of Stats Jackson 128 Dawson 121 Others right around Jackson’s HOS score & how many rounds it took them to get in to the HOS (or how long they’ve been on the holdover list) Ryne Sandberg (60) Luis Tiant (forever- it takes way too much time to count this) Duke Snider- got in fairly quickly as I recall- 5 rounds (that one was easy to count) Dave Cone- I think he’s been on and off a couple of times Dazzy Vance- didn’t he get in on his first try? If not, it… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I thought about the fact that his involvement in the 1919 Series hasn’t seemed to be held against him. If anything, I would argue that it’s HELPING his candidacy, as he (like Koufax) lacks a decline phase of his career and thus always has the “what if” hanging over his head. Surely, he had another couple productive years as a player. That being said, I think it’s quite amazing that the “Field of Dreams” effect has made him totally absolved of wrongdoing. That may well be accurate. However, I also think that the movie (and the mythology it’s created) has… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Here’s what I was using for Paige’s stats, for the record:

http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/player.php?ID=1716

Brent
Brent
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Although he would have faded, it wouldn’t have been evident (see Cobb, Speaker, e.g.) as the rabbit ball would have disguised his offensive downturn.

Koufax, OTOH, might have been even more dominant the next couple years, but 1969 m(and the lowering of the mound)might have made him look almost human.

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig – Jackson had 3.5 WAR at age 27. Looks like you missed his time with Cleveland that year. And of course his 0.9 WAR at age 29 was accomplished in only 78 PAs (he missed most of the season because he was working in a shipyard during WWI).

oneblankspace
8 years ago

From the Retrosheet lost home runs page:

7/13/1915: In a game at the Polo Grounds, Cy Williams of the Cubs hit what appeared to be a two-run inside-the-park home run to right center in the top of the fourth inning. However, Williams missed third base and was called out by umpire Mal Eason. Cubs skipper Roger Bresnahan was ejected by umpire Lord Byron for arguing the call on Williams. The Cubs lost to the Giants, 4-3.

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

Hartnett, Nettles, Tiant

Low T
Low T
8 years ago

Whoops. I went on vacation and forgot to vote for a month or so.

Johnson, Alexander, Nettles

Joseph
Joseph
8 years ago

Johnson, Nettles, Winfield.

Josh
Josh
8 years ago

Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander, Gabby Hartnett

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago

In conformity with my longwinded post on Paige above, I’d like to change my vote by replacing Goslin with Paige.

Johnson, Alexander, Paige

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

Through 29 ballots (#70):

26 – Johnson
===================75% (20)
15 – Alexander
===================50% (15)
10 – Jackson
===================25% (7)
4 – Goslin, Nettles*, Paige, Wilhelm*, Winfield*
3 – Allen*, Hartnett
===================10% (3)
2 – Ashburn*, Brown, Eckersley*, Reuschel*, Tiant*
0 – Dawson*

BillH
BillH
8 years ago

Johnson, Dawson, Allen

will later vote for Shoeless Joe, Winfield, and Alexander as well

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
8 years ago

Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander, Dawson (just to mix it up a bit)

Mike L
Mike L
8 years ago

Johnson, Alexander, and Goslin. Can’t vote for Jackson. I understand the arguments, recognize that maybe he was duped, and certainly see that his performance merits it, but it doesn’t sit right with me.

mosc
mosc
8 years ago

Back from the honeymoon with hopefully enough time to save this ballot’s best outfielder: Andre Dawson. I think I’ve posted a ton on how he was a little more peaky than other outfielders of similar WAR and as a stud defensive center fielder in his peak batting years, he put up 20.8 WAA in just 4 seasons. That’s only 0.6 WAA-in-4-years behind Shoeless Joe and far ahead of the other position players on this ballot. I think the fact that Dawson wouldn’t have been allowed to play in Jackson’s era which ironically Jackson wasn’t allowed to play much of himself… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago
Reply to  mosc

I wonder how much of the not-love for Dawson is saber-backlash for his winning an MVP in a 4.0 WAR year for a last place team.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I would say that sabermetric analysis has, overall, been kind to Dawson. Yes, that 1987 MVP was a joke – but that was known long before sabermetrics got into WAR and the like. While Dawson shouldn’t have won that MVP, I don’t fault him for it – there were other years when he could have (maybe SHOULD have) won it, so I don’t think it’s inappropriate to call him an MVP. Others may disagree, but I definitely don’t see it against him.

And mosc, congratulations! I hope the honeymoon was great.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Hope you weren’t thinking about Andre Dawson on your honeymoon.

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar
Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
8 years ago

A vote for the greatest pitcher of all time, plus a couple of ‘keep ’em on the COG ballot’ votes, for players who coincidentally played for the Red Sox:

– Walter Johnson
– Andre Dawson
– Luis Tiant

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

I’m guessing that if there are enough votes that Paige needs another one to keep from losing any eligibility he will get it. I’m a little conflicted on Jackson plus he looks like he’ll clear the 25% barrier. Walter is a lock & Old Pete will get at least another rounds eligibility- which he really doesn’t need.

So with an eye towards some relatively weak ballots coming up on the horizon…

Hartnett, Tiant and….

Ashburn

mosc
mosc
8 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I feel like Paige may have needed that vote…

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago

Johnson, Alexander, Winfield.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago

Through Scary Tuna (36 ballots), here’s your update:

32 – Walter Johnson*
===============75% (27)
18 – Grover Cleveland Alexander
===============50% (18)
10 – Shoeless Joe Jackson
===============25% (9)
5 – Goose Goslin, Gabby Hartnett, Dave Winfield*
4 – Dick Allen*, Andre Dawson*, Graig Nettles*, Satchel Paige, Luis Tiant*, Hoyt Wilhelm*
===============10% (4), TOP NINE
3 – Richie Ashburn*
2 – Kevin Brown, Dennis Eckersley*, Rick Reuschel*

As a reminder, vote changes are finished, so you’re locked in with your vote if you’ve voted already.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
8 years ago

Walter Johnson, Grover Alexander, Joe Jackson.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Luis, you voted already @38. Same ballot, though.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Ooops! Sorry, I´ve been away on vacation and sometimes I forgot how many days have passed since the last time I checked the ballots.

At least I´m consistent with my thoughts, right? 😉

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Eckersley is in danger of falling off the ballot. Still trying to assess him. I feel like more than one reliever should be represented in the COG (and #2 should be Wilhelm). But Eck had such a unique career it is difficult to compare him to anybody. 45.7 WAR as a Starter 16.8 WAR out of the pen. ____________ Or: 361 Games Started 577 Games Finished Most Games Finished, minimum 300 Starts: 577 … Eck 240 … Charlie Hough 218 … Jack Quinn 204 … John Smoltz 186 … Charlie Root 186 … Ryan Dempster ______________________ On the other side,… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

I know some folks here think it is sloppy sauce to go with a pure save-the-bubble ballot, but to paraphrase the star of our #1 Reality TV show (the presidential election):

“I don’t apologize for anything. I’m using the laws of our great system, as they are written.”
__________________

Vote:

Andre Dawson
Dennis Eckersley
Hoyt Wilhelm

Mike L
Mike L
8 years ago

One more comment about Dawson and the 1987 voting–don’t forget how large an impact his Free Agency treatment had on the voters (the writers) that year. Everyone knew he’d been dealt with disgracefully by MLB as a result of collusion–he actually took a huge pay-cut. Then he went out and had a terrific year-I know what WAR says, but he led in HR, RBI and TB, had a fantastic August. The 87 Cubs team was interesting. It had a 22 year old Raphael Palmerio, who was a part time outfielder, a 21 year old pitcher who went 6-14 with a… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

Also, the Cubs that year were a contending team through the All Star break, in no small measure—as anyone who followed the team would tell you—to Dawson’s timely hitting. The betrayal of the team by Dallas Green is a story I’ve told here before, how he shipped Steve Trout to the Yankees, just incidentally destroying the guy’s career, after Trout pitched two consecutive shut-outs, making it clear to the rest of the team that, even though they were second in the division, management was throwing in the sponge with 75 games still to play. The team tanked, went from 49-40… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago

Interesting. The Yankees also fell apart after that trade. They were in 1st place, and went 34-39, finishing a distant 4th.

I remember distinctly picking up the NY Daily News and seeing the headline “Fishing For a Pennant.”

And I hated that trade. Tewksbury was solid as a rookie (I went to his first game). I felt like he was going to be a very good pitcher. Nothing about what the Yankees did in the 2nd half of the 80’s made a lick of sense.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Concerning the Trout trade to the Yankees I remember reading that George Steinbrenner had just told manager Lou Piniella something like “I just won the pennant for you”.

David P
David P
8 years ago

NSB: Your retelling of the`87 Cubs and Steve Trout doesn’t quite fit the facts. The Cubs had been trying to trade Trout since the offseason. They viewed him as flaky, inconsistent and injury prone. He was also on a large, guaranteed contract and the Cubs were looking for salary relief. Here’s an article from the Tribune from February 1987 talking about their efforts to trade him to the Braves. I also found mention of them trying to trade him to the Yankees during the offseason. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1987-02-25/sports/8701160314_1_trade-talks-herm-starrette-ron-schueler They made the trade at the All-Star break, when they were 47-41 and in… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

I know that in our era of mega salaries, interchangeable players, and so on ad infinitum, we feel that the psychological issues of players ought to be handled with a sort of arms-length aplomb by all concerned, management, fans, and especially players and their families. The chief issues today are drug use and partner abuse, if the press is a fair measure, and it’s been a long time—maybe since Steve Trout, but anyone can correct me on this—since a player so completely lost it and a team imploded as a result of management’s crass indifference to both the single player… Read more »

David P
David P
8 years ago

NSB: I see your John Donne and raise you a certain Mr. Bill. Methinks thou doth protest too much. Seriously, we’re talking about Steve Trout. He finished the season before in the bullpen. He went to spring training in `87 without a spot guaranteed in the rotation. He missed a good portion of the season with an injury. Yet despite all that, according to your theory, he was the linchpin around which all the hopes and dreams of Cubs fans and players revolved. Seriously, a team that can’t survive the loss of a Steve Trout isn’t even close to being… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago

You’ve lost me with Mr. Bill. Never heard of him.

Explain to me who John Donne was and what he wrote that’s relevant to this discussion, then give me Mr. Bill’s response, just so it’s clear that we both understand what the other person is trying to say. Then I may try to respond.

Thanks.

Mike L
Mike L
8 years ago

NSB and David P, I’m having a hard time following. Are we talking about John Donne the metaphysical poet and Mr. Bill the oft-crushed SNL puppet? Is this some interplay between the frailty of life (or injury) the inevitability of death, and the ultimate redemption that the immortality of memory can offer?

David P
David P
8 years ago

Hmmm…I thought the quote under my “Mr. Bill” reference would make it obvious who I was referring to. You know, a guy from way back, known as “The Bard”. But I gave this some thought and decided it would be better if we envisioned Ryne Sandberg responding to an interview question about the Steve Trout trade, by channeling Allen Iverson: “We’re sitting in here, and I’m supposed to be the franchise player, and we in here talking about Steve Trout. I mean, listen, we’re talking about Steve Trout, not a game, not a game, not a game, we talking about… Read more »

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
8 years ago

David P., I thought you were referring to Mr. Bill, the puppet from SNL, too. Sandberg channeling Iverson got your point across clearly, though.

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago

David P: Some salient points: Your sanguine view of the pitching is hardly justified by selective stats, but I’ll select a few of my own to support the opposing view. In July 1987 the Cubs went 12-13 with an ERA of 4.80, but subtract the work of Sutcliff and Trout and the rest of the staff was 5-13 and—if my math is correct—5.79. In August the offense produced 135 runs and 47 HRs, but the pitching staff allowed 162 runs with a 5.56 ERA. The team record was 14-14, despite allowing 27 more runs than it scored, in other words,… Read more »

David P
David P
8 years ago

Look NSB, this is my final message on this subject. You’re wrong period. Your basic premise is the that the Cubs collapsed because they traded Trout. As I’ve already shown that’s 100% factually incorrect. Their record in the 43 games between the trade and September callups and the 43 games before the trade is exactly the same. There’s absolutely nothing you can say, no stats you can use, that will change that essential fact. Having Trout on the team probably would have helped the final record a little bit but not much (and given Trout’s track record that’s hardly guaranteed).… Read more »