Thurman Munson, 1947–1979 (Image via Wikipedia)
When building the Hall of wWAR, the most exhilarating part of the process was seeing who the most overlooked players were in baseball history. Many of these players became pet cases of mine for the Hall of Fame. I wrote about many of them at length at Beyond the Box Score—19th Century stars Bill Dahlen, Deacon White, and Bob Caruthers, ballot holdovers Jeff Bagwell, Edgar Martinez, Tim Raines, and Alan Trammell, and players with cases that are now left to the Veterans Committee in Kevin Brown, Lou Whitaker, Ted Simmons, Bobby Grich, and Dick Allen. That’s a lot of players to support. And to be honest, there’s actually more.
Today, I want to have a little chat about one of those players—Thurman Munson. Munson hasn’t always been near the top of my list of pet cases. But I’ve… evolved my feelings towards him.
I’ve actually been working on a new Hall of Fame-related project that builds on the Hall of wWAR. Through that project, I’ve identified what I believe should be the Hall of Fame borderline. Thurman Munson sits right on that borderline. Of course, that’s significant for a big reason—Munson never got to finish his career. We lost him at age 32 when a small plane he was piloting crashed in Canton, OH. The fact that he sits on the borderline without the opportunity to finish his career says to me that Thurman Munson was a Hall of Famer.
Here are some more thoughts on Munson before I open it up to you:
- While Munson had certainly started to decline, he had simply fallen from an elite catcher to an above aveage one. He still had a long way to go. In 1978, Munson had accumulated 3.1 WAR. In 1979 (the year he died), Munson had earned 2.2 WAR through 97 games.
- Among Hall of Fame catchers, Carlton Fisk (26.5), Gabby Hartnett (22.0), Ernie Lombardi (14.8), Yogi Berra (11.9), and Bill Dickey (9.0) earned the most WAR from their age 33 season until the end of their careers.
- Let’s look at three non-Hall of Fame peers of Munson’s. Bill Freehan earned just 1.9 WAR from age 33 on. Freehan probably has the most similar career arc to Munson, though Freehan’s career ended quickly for different reasons. Gene Tenace was criminally underrated (and therefore underused) and produced 7.1 WAR in just 833 PAs from 33 on. Ted Simmons is a tricky case. He was worth 0.8 WAR from 33 on, but at age 33 he was worth 3.7 WAR (meaning from 34 on he was worth –2.9 WAR).
- Give Munson another win for the remainder of 1979, a couple more for 1980, and another win or two for partial seasons beyond that (a conservative estimate). His 43.3 WAR could have been closer to 48 (or more) by the time he was done.
- He won an MVP. He was a Rookie of the Year. He was a seven-time All Star (with three starts). He won three Gold Gloves.
- He won two World Series rings. In his three World Series, he hit .373/.417/.493 in 16 games with a homer and 12 RBI. In the LCSs leading to those World Series, he hit .339/.333/.500 with a pair of homers in 14 games.
- His best Hall of Fame voting percentage came in 1981, his first year on the ballot (15.5%). His five years of eligibility were waived. He stayed in the ballot for all fifteen years, receiving 6.5% of the vote in his final try (1995).
Let’s talk about Thurman Munson—his career, his life, his Hall of Fame candidacy… anything.
This is tough to say because I loved Thurmon Munson growing up a Yankee fan. And your arguments are compelling. But take Don Mattingly for example, while his career did not end in a plane crash, his production did end because of a chronic back problem. Aren’t they similar except for the reason the production stopped? Munson was great for a short window. But alas, the window was too short.
It’s a good question, William… injury vs. death. The big difference for me is that I don’t have Mattingly particularly close to the Hall of Fame borderline. Perhaps WAR doesn’t give him enough credit, but Munson was still very productive at 32. Mattingly’s dropoff came much sooner. After age 28, Mattingly was worth 7.6 WAR. Munson, meanwhile, was worth 21.1 WAR. And Mattingly had two extra seasons (and a chance at more) to do it in.
I think the big difference, and I know Adam’s wWAR calculations take this into consideration, is that Munson was a catcher. Even in that age 32 season, he caught 88 of the 97 games he played in. The statistical bar has to be lower for catchers, and Munson actually produced 4 more career rWAR than Mattingly. So, Munson really has a much better Hall of Fame case than Mattingly.
Correction: actually 3.5 more career WAR. Damn those lazy rounding errors.
As usual, Bill James summarized this better than I ever could. Commenting on Munson’s HOF case, he said something to the effect that Munson’s death in 1979 was an injury; the most extreme type of injury, to be sure, but still an injury,and his career should be evaluated in that way.
With this in mind, I cannot give Munson any “extra credit” for the manner in which his career ended. Let’s look at other MLB careers ended by death:
– Roberto Clemente: he was already overqualified for the HOF by the end of 1972, not a factor
– Lou Gehrig: he didn’t die immediately after being diagnosed (it was over two years), plus he was already _absurdly_ overqualified for the HOF by May 1st, 1939 (last game played)
– Ray Chapman: off to a good start, but his career was just too short (1051 G) for serious consideration
I’d like to support his HOF candidacy, but Munson’s gotta get in line after Ted Simmons, Joe Torre, and maybe Bill Freehan (quite underrated).
The closest parallel to Munson’s career ending (disregarding the postion difference) may be Kirby Puckett. However, Puckett played about three more seasons, and wasn’t in obvious decline when his career ended.
I do believe Munson is a better HOF candidate than Mattingly, though.
The Puckett/Munson comparison is a good one, but the fact Puckett wasn’t in obvious decline shouldn’t be a factor if we’re not giving “extra credit” for the manner in which a player’s career ended.
I think we tend to forget just how much catcher’s numbers are suppressed. In terms of catchers, I do have Munson as qualified (though barely), without any extra credit.
That said, I do have Torre, Simmons, and even Gene Tenace ahead of him (of course, without giving Munson a boost). Freehan is just a little behind.
The WAR threshold for the Hall of Fame, if it actually existed, is generally considered to be anywhere from 60-70 WAR. I would take the catcher threshold down to 45 or so assuming a full career. I do like Munson for the HOF.
bstar, just to clarify how I do it…
I use WAR and WAA (so that peak is weighted more). Munson had a great peak. I also give catchers a 20% boost. I don’t just apply this to all catchers. It is applied based on percentage of games caught. Munson caught a lot, so he gets another good boost there.
Thanks for reminding me about Gene Tenace. I did not remember that he was as good as he was.
That said, I think Munson is ahead of him IF you are considering catchers only.
Tenace played about 1/3 of his games at first base, I think–and after he was 30, some seasons I think he played over half his games at first base. That had to add to his career productivity. He picked up almost half his WAR after 30, I think.
Tenace is another guy I’m going to have to post about separately. He is supremely underrated. His OBP skills were among the best ever, it is just disguised by a low batting average.
By my totals, he actually comes out close to Munson. Both, to me, had incomplete careers. Munson was because of his death. Tenace wasn’t utilized enough because his skills weren’t appreciated at the time. I don’t really give him any extra credit for that. But he does rank as Hall-worthy without any boost. I look at the catchers in the Hall of Fame and really think that Munson, Tenace (and Simmons and Torre) should all be in there. I wouldn’t mind seeing Freehan in either, actually.
Am I a big Hall guy? Not necessarily. I just happen to be a “correct Hall” guy. It’s just weird that Simmons (with all the hits), Munson (with all the hardware), and Freehan (with all the All Star nods and Gold Gloves) didn’t get more support. Torre will get in via the Vets, but he really should be in already. Tenace is just unlike any other player in history.
Tenace was not really a full-time catcher. He started maybe 60% of his games as a catcher. And he wasn’t that good of a catcher. Munson was a vastly superior catcher. Tenace was a productive offensive player, but there’s a reason why the A’s went out and got Ray Fosse before the 1973 season. If memory serves me correctly, Fosse was the A’s starting catcher throughout the 1973 ALCS and World Series. In a big game, the A’s started Fosse over Tenace.
Catching is the second most difficult defensive skill to truly master, next to pitching, Also, back in the 1970s, a catcher had to figure out how to pitch to a batter without any of the computer-generated data available today. Munson excelled at calling a game. The Yankees never would have traded Munson for Tenace, Munson was, next to Bench, the best defensive catcher in the game. Much better than Tenace. Much better than Simmons. I keep hearing from people that Tenace and Simmons were under-appreciated in their day. Not true. Everyone realized they were very productive offensive players. Tenace was a .240 hitter, but he signed a $1.8 million deal ($300,000 per year) with San Diego in 1976 — huge money for that era — because people realized he hit for power and (as Joe Garagiola would say frequently during the “Game of the Week”) “he knows how to get on base.”
“The closest parallel to Munson’s career ending (disregarding the postion difference) may be Kirby Puckett.”
Actually I would go with another Twin, earlier, Lyman Bostock. Talk about a tragedy, there’s one.
Based on the tragic circumstances, yes, but Bostock’s career ended much more prematurely.
Yes, but he had already established himself as a star and potential superstar in the league. I mean look at his 1977 numbers.
http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/9bb77e84
When you’re second only to Carew and Dave Parker in batting over a three year period, and Gene Mauch has “no doubt” that you’re going to win future batting titles, among other talents, you’ve got some serious ability.
A good parallel is the career of Roy Campanella. Here we have 2 New York catchers who each played 10 full seasons.
Campy had his 3 MVP’s; Thurman had 1 MVP and the ROY.
Munson caught 1278 games compared to Campy’s 1183.
Both were very good defensively, but Thurm’s dWAR of 11.6 is roughly twice that of Campy’s 5.7.
Campy had some monster years, but 3 of his last 4 were dreadful by his standards.
In postseason play Munson was outstanding, posting a .357/.378/.496 in 30 games compared to Campy’s less than stellar .237/.310/.386 in 32 games.
Munson had a career WAR of 43.3, while Campy finished with 31.6.
Both men’s careers were cut short due to accidents, yet Campy was voted in during his 7th year of eligibility, while Thurman got double digit votes only once in his 15 years.
I think it’s a grave injustice that arguably the 2nd best catcher of the 70’s and top 10 of all time in terms of WAR isn’t in the HOF.
You’ve brought up Puckett as one example where injury was considered.
Hack Wilson seemingly received some type of consideration because of his alcoholism.
Roy Campanella was clearly on the decline when his career ended because of an auto accident. He is well behind Munson in terms of WAR. Give Campanella another 10 WAR to make up for the time he lost because of racial prejudice, and He’s about even with Munson.
There’s also Greenberg who was probably given consideration for the year he missed to injury and the years he missed to serving in WWII. Not too many outfielders with 55 WAR in the HOF, I don’t think. (Although I can’t recall anyone being given special consideration for being in the service during the Viet Nam war).
Munson and Nettles are two of my boyhood heroes. I’ve always thought they should be in.
I like Adam Darowski because he agrees with me (smile)
It seems to me there weren’t very many high profile players who served in the Vietnam War. At least not too many who were on the Hall of Fame borderline. Here’s an interesting article on the subject: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/cooperstown-confidential-baseball-and-vietnam/
Dan @ #88:
Do you know of a similar look at the Korean War regarding players? I’ve often wondered why the several high profile, predominantly NYC players who served—Ford, Mays, Podres, Antonelli, Martin—are the only ones I can think of besides Ted Williams.
Anyone?
@nsb #89: I actually found these on baseball-reference:
Korean War Veterans
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Category:Korean_War_Veterans
Vietnam War Veterans
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Category:Vietnam_War_Veterans
If you’re interested in any other wars, you can find those pages here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Category:Veterans
david wright was better than mattingly
Munson was also the only guy who seemed to keep Steinbrener in line. Losing him contributed to a lot of turmoil and a few more billy martin hiring/firings than probably would have happened otherwise. I also think it likely that Munson would have had at least a shot at a managerial career, like Dickey and Berra before him. Sorry, but these things are what I remember way more than the decimal place on his 1978 WAR number.
Thanks for sharing, mosc. This is why I wanted to write this post (and others in the future like it). I was one when the plane went down. I’ve heard stories, but mostly what I have now is numbers. And by the numbers, I think he belongs. I want to hear from people with opinions on Munson, whether they are subjective or objective.
Thanks for helping me fill in the blanks. Just by his numbers, he looks like a future manager.
I was just short of seven years old, Adam. In NY, it was huge news – besides the tragedy of a life cut short, the loss of a husband and father, it was a terrible loss for the Yankees, who wouldn’t be the same at the position until Mike Stanley, who has his best years hitting and defending (at least according to the numbers) in the Bronx. The problem is that he couldn’t stay on the field the way Munson did (140 or more games played seven straight seasons). Then, of course, Posada locked it down for fifteen years.
It was always thought in New York that Thurman was on a Hall of Fame track. Even two more passable years would likely have done it. More to the point, his contemporary, Carlton Fisk, was (by many accounts) in a constant rivalry with Munson, always trying to one-up his Yankees counterpart.
All this evidence suggests that Munson was a highly-respected player during his career. What he wasn’t, though, was loved by the press. He was kind of truculent, always considered “not as good as Bench” (but who was?), not as publicly personable as Fisk or joyous as Gary Carter… And, in general, evaluating players from the 60’s-80’s for the Hall in light of the video-game numbers that arose in the mid-90’s proved problematic. Many of the “Hall of Merit” types who aren’t in the Hall are primarily from this era: Grich, Trammel, Whitaker, Simmons, Raines, Allen… think of how long it took to get Burt Blyleven his due.
So I think it was a lot of things adding up to keep Munson from the Hall.
I doubt that he had any influence on Steinbrenner, who was a law unto himself, but he may well have had a stabilizing influence on Martin, and on the team more generally. He deserves some extra consideration just for playing in that circus IMO, with those two, plus Reggie.
Although Reggie hated him, and Sparky Lyle once said “Munson’s not moody, he’s just mean. When you’re moody, you’re nice sometimes.”
I don’t think Reggie hated Munson at all. It was the other way around, at least at the start. Munson was pissed at Reggie for his “I’m the straw that stirs the drink. Maybe I should say me and Munson, but he can only stir it bad.” quote.
In time, though, they got along fine, and according to comments from other Yankees, Jackson and Munson were friendly once they got through 1977, and certainly by 1979 and a couple world championships together. Munson even flew Jackson a few times on his new jet, including a couple weeks prior to the tragic crash, a story Graig Nettles recounted as he was also on the jet. Nettles has said a number of times that while the media portrayed the two as fueding, they weren’t and got along fine. Not surprising, although that’s not the story you’ll hear to this day.
I think there’s a similar situation right now with two Yankees, A-Rod and Derek Jeter. They clearly did not get along at the start because of comments A-Rod made in a magazine about Jeter before he ever came to the Yankees, but in time (in this case probably about five years) their relationship improved. Unlike Jackson and Munson where the tension was visable their first season together, we don’t see that on the field with A-Rod and Jeter. In fact, they seem to joke. I asked Jon Heyman about this, questioning the media’s portrayal of Jeter and A-Rod, and he said it was fair point.
No, Munson was the guy who kept Steinbrener in line. It was Reggie Jackson–not. I remember Jackson saying he was the straw that stirred the drink, not Munson.
I started gettin’ into the game in ’81/’82, and heard a lot about Munson from neighborhood kids & Yankee announcers (I was in the NY market). Tho I never got to see Munson play ’til repeats way later, I’ve always thought he was a HOF caliber catcher. The arguments against him are almost always a lack of accumulation of counting stats — which is a logical fallacy when you’re talkin’ about a guy who died before he could finish his career.
I don’t see this as a logical fallacy at all.
I don’t mean to be cruel or callous or unfeeling, but we are evaluating Munson’s qualifications for “the baseball HOF for what a player _actually_ accomplished, not “the baseball HOF for what a player might have accomplished, if he hadn’t died while he was still a regular and somewhat productive”.
The list of HOF-calibre players who did not make the HOF because of traumatic/repeated injuries is endless, starting with Pete Reiser, Tony Conigliaro, Fred Lynn, Herb Score, Urban Shocker (also died young), Ted Kluszewski, Ellis Burks, Hal Trosky, Eric Davis, Smokey Joe Wood, and Tony Oliva. Chase Utley might be a future addition to this list.
In other words, I evaluate a player’s HOF case by what they actually accomplished, nothing more. Three exceptions:
-segregation barriers
-wartime service
-labor interruptions (1981/1994/1995)
My stance is that Munson, when compared to other catchers in history, actually was a borderline Hall of Famer if you give him zero credit at all.
Catchers with a 116 OPS+ or better in as many PAs as Munson (11, not including Munson):
HOFers: Fisk, Bench, Berra, Hartnett, Dickey, Lombardi, Cochrane
Non-HOFers: Simmons, Posada, Schang
Future HOFers: Piazza
I prefer WAR Batting Runs. It doesn’t overrate power like OPS+.
Catchers with 124 WAR Batting runs or better, no PA limitation (there’s 19, not including Munson):
HOFers: Fisk, Carter, Bench, Berra, Hartnett, Dickey, Lombardi, Cochrane, Bresnahan, Campanella
Non-HOFers: Simmons, Posada, Schang, Tettleton, Tenace, Carroll
Future HOFers: Piazza
Active: VMartinez, Mauer
Catchers with 32 WAR Fielding runs or better, no PA limitation:
47 catchers qualify, not including Munson
Players on BOTH WAR runs lists:
Gary Carter
Johnny Bench
Thurman Munson
All lists show players who caught in 50% of their games
Adam, a couple questions:
1. Since wRC+ and OPS+ are almost universally interchangeable, can you explain your statement that OPS+ overrates power? You’re basically saying that wRC+ overrates power also.
2. You say Munson isn’t on the Fielding runs list, yet later you say he’s on both the Batting and Fielding lists along with Carter and Bench. I’s confused.
1. They are USUALLY interchangeable. But look at a player who is high OBP and low power. Take Willie Randolph. 111 wRC+ and 104 OPS+. OBP and SLG are not on the same scale, so it doesn’t always work out. It often does, but not always.
3. I must not have been clear. In the Batting and Fielding runs lists, I used Munson’s totals as the minimums. So he was on both lists by default. Sorry that wasn’t clear!
My understanding is that knee problems had begun to take their toll on Munson even before his final season so it’s hard to predict how his career would have progressed from that point on. Given his power drop off in his final 2 seasons plus his career long aversion to base on balls it’s hard to imagine that he would have been any more effective as a DH than Ted Simmons was beyond that point- although to be fair, it should be pointed out that much of the reason that Simmons had a negative WAR after his age 33 season was related to the Brewers trying to make a third baseman out of him.
For me, Munson falls into the category of someone who wouldn’t be a terrible HOF pick although I wouldn’t vote for him myself. But it’s clear that two of the catchers that Adam mentioned- Simmons and Freehan plus Joe Torre- are all probably more worthy than Munson unless you do give him additional credit because of how his career ended.
This has also got me thinking about how much, if any, impact the DH has had on catchers careers and longevity. Did being able to DH 5 games a year give either Pudge Rodriguez or Fisk much added value? It didn’t seem to add much at the end of Jorge Posada’s career but did he benefit much in the years preceding that? Just glancing at their numbers doesn’t seem to show much but maybe I’m not thinking about it in the right way.
Hartvig –
This is probably the point of view closest to mine; I would compare Munson to candidates on the current HOF ballot such as Walker, Dale Murphy, and McGriff; I would vote for other players ahead of them, but they (and Munson) would be entirely reasonable/credible HOF selections that wouldn’t lower the standards of the HOF.
I might also compare Munson’s career (if not end of career…) to a fellow Yankee of three decades prior – Joe Gordon. Short careers but a lot of impact; highly respected as key players up-the-middle on great Yankees teams, both won MVPs. Both of them stayed on the BBWAA HOF ballots all 15 years, but never came close to being elected. So, maybe in 2038…?
Another factor is the Yankee captaincy was left unfilled from 1941 to 1976. It has to say something for Munson that he was named Lou Gehrig’s successor 35 years later.
Adam, Thanks for this post.
I try to stay out of HOF discussions involving Munson because he is my all-time favorite player and I couldn’t possibly be more biased. So I don’t even try.
It was a very sad day for a 10 year-old in 1979 when Munson died. I still think about it every year on August 2nd.
You mentioned his performances in the playoffs. My favorite all-time HR came in Game 3 of the 1978 ALCS against KC. Yanks were down by 2 going into the Bottom of the 8th. Then Thurman hit a long 2-run HR over the 430 foot sign in Right Center. Even though he caught the foul popup to end the World Series that season, I think of that ALCS HR as his last hurrah.
When you talk about how much WAR he would have accumulated (had he not died), I think he would have had to do most of it as a 1B/DH, as I think his Catching days were coming to a close. I figure he would have been the bridge to Mattingly, instead of the Bob Watson, Dave Revering, John Mayberry, Ken Griffey show. Also, it is possible he would have been traded to the Indians (which was always speculated at that time). But who knows, maybe he hangs in there at catcher for the Yanks for a few more years and has some more great playoff series in 1980 and 1981, we can never know.
The only thing I know for sure is he was the most popular player for one of the best teams of a very successful franchise.
I was just thinking about that 435′ home run, Tmckelv. The only thing I wasn’t sure about was what year it happened. To put this in perspective for you younger folks, home runs to left center field in the old (but renovated) Yankee Stadium were virtually nonexistent, so that blast was truly unbelievable. To think it used to be much further to that part of the park makes you realize why Joe DiMaggio didn’t hit more homers.
I also remember the speculation about Munson going to Cleveland to be closer to his family. I think it was more likely than not that we wouldn’t have finished his career as a Yankee.
It was actually left center (found it on YouTube). But who’s counting? Wherever it was, it was a game-winning homer.
Munson wasn’t my favorite player but he is from my hometown so I definitely felt a connection to him. And like you, I was 10 years old when he died. I still remember my dad calling me up to tell me the news. Of course, I didn’t believe him so I turned on the radio and literally the first words I heard were “Thurman Munson has died in a plane crash”. Quite chilling…
I used to have a copy of his rookie baseball card which I found at a flea market. Unfortunately a “friend” stole it from me when I was 11 or 12 years old….
I remember growing up and it being a big deal (from the Yankee announcers) that Thurman Munson was the fist player to bat .300 and have 100 RBI for 3 straight seasons (1975-77) since Bill White did it 1962-64. Ironically Bill White was one of those announcers, which is probably why it was made out to be such a big deal. But as a little kid, I remember loving that.
Obviously, time and sabermetrics have made that feat virtually worthless (what with BA and RBI not thought of as highly, AND numerous players having much longer streaks that 3 seasons over the last 30 years or so). But I still like it because it shows Thurman doing something that at the time had not been done in a while and it is probably why I really appreciate seasons with .300 BA, 100 RBI and less than 20 HR.
One last post on Munson. Anyone that has seen me make posts over the last couple of years knows that I am a HUGE fan of baseball cards. Well, here is my all-time favorite baseball card.
http://www.checkoutmycards.com/Cards/Baseball/1971/Topps/5/Thurman_Munson/1836474
Phil Rizzuto’s on-air commentary after Munson’s funeral, August 6th, 1979. It’s almost poetic:
The Man in the Moon
The Yankees have had a traumatic four days.
Actually five days.
That terrible crash with Thurman Munson.
To go through all that agony,
And then today,
You and I along with the rest of the team
Flew to Canton for the services,
And the family….
Very upset.
You know, it might,
It might sound corny.
But we have the most beautiful full moon tonight.
And the crowd,
Enjoying whatever is going on right now.
They say it might sound corny,
But to me it’s some kind of a,
Like an omen.
Both the moon and Thurman Munson,
Both ascending up into heaven.
I just can’t get it out of my mind.
I just saw that full moon,
And it just reminded me of Thurman.
And that’s it.
August 6, 1979
Baltimore at New York
Ron Guidry pitching to Lee May
Fifth inning, bases empty, no outs
Orioles lead 1-0
That’s pretty great Lawrence. Thanks for sharing. Oh hell, I hope this doesn’t come across as a cheap attempt to divert traffic to my blog, but here’s what I wrote about that day: http://left-field.blogspot.com/2012/08/good-night-captain.html
A very close friend of mine (still to this day) was at that game you wrote about, him being a HUGE Orioles fan (still is). He is from Rochester, NY and just happened to have tickets for that game, before the accident. To this day, he still remembers it like yesterday, the fans just going berserk for all that time, chanting his name. Almost like someone witnessing a no-hitter or some other great sports feat, is to be able to say “I was there when….”
Wow, that would have been unbelievable. Thanks for sharing, John. Someone asked on Twitter recently (it may have been Andy) if you could travel back in time to witness one game in baseball history, what would it be? I now have my answer.
More Phil Rizzuto on-air commentary:
PRAYER FOR THE CAPTAIN
There’s a little prayer I always say
Whenever I think of my family or when I’m flying,
When I’m afraid, and I am afraid of flying.
It’s just a little one. You can say it no matter what,
Whether you’re Catholic or Jewish or Protestant or
whatever.
And I’ve probably said it a thousand times
Since I heard the news on Thurman Munson.
It’s not trying to be maudlin or anything.
His Eminence, Cardinal Cooke, is going to come out
And say a little prayer for Thurman Munson.
But this is just a little one I say time and time again,
It’s just: Angel of God, Thurman’s guardian dear,
To whom his love commits him here there or everywhere,
Ever this night and day be at his side,
To light and guard, to rule and guide.
For some reason it makes me feel like I’m talking to
Thurman,
Or whoever’s name you put in there,
Whether it be my wife or any of my children, my parents
or anything.
It’s just something to keep you really from going bananas.
Because if you let this,
If you keep thinking about what happened, and you can’t
understand it,
That’s what really drives you to despair.
Faith. You gotta have faith.
You know, they say time heals all wounds,
And I don’t quite agree with that a hundred percent.
It gets you to cope with wounds.
You carry them the rest of your life.
August 3, 1979
Baltimore at New York
Pregame show
Prayer for the Captain
There’s a little prayer I always say
Whenever I think of my family or when I’m flying,
When I’m afraid, and I am afraid of flying.
It’s just a little one. You can say it no matter what,
Whether you’re Catholic or Jewish or Protestant or
whatever.
And I’ve probably said it a thousand times
Since I heard the news on Thurman Munson.
It’s not trying to be maudlin or anything.
His Eminence, Cardinal Cooke, is going to come out
And say a little prayer for Thurman Munson.
But this is just a little one I say time and time again,
It’s just: Angel of God, Thurman’s guardian dear,
To whom his love commits him here there or everywhere,
Ever this night and day be at his side,
To light and guard, to rule and guide.
For some reason it makes me feel like I’m talking to
Thurman,
Or whoever’s name you put in there,
Whether it be my wife or any of my children, my parents
or anything.
It’s just something to keep you really from going bananas.
Because if you let this,
If you keep thinking about what happened, and you can’t
understand it,
That’s what really drives you to despair.
Faith. You gotta have faith.
You know, they say time heals all wounds,
And I don’t quite agree with that a hundred percent.
It gets you to cope with wounds.
You carry them the rest of your life.
August 3, 1979
Baltimore at New York
Pregame show
oops, Azrin got there first….
_______________________________
I was six when my father told me the news.
He had never mentioned sports before, it wasn’t his thing.
But this was a big deal.
Something huge and terrible.
It was my introduction to baseball, and the Yankees, and mortality.
Voomoo Zanzibar,
It’s not a competition…
One question – did the Yankees happen to have the day off for the funeral, was the funeral scheduled for a day off, or did the Yankees have a game scheduled the day of the funeral, but it was re-scheduled?
The Yankees did have a night game scheduled against the Orioles at the Stadium on the day of the funeral. It was an emotionally charged game won by the Yankees with all 5 of their RBIs coming off the bat of Bobby Murcer, who had delivered a eulogy for Munson at the funeral. Murcer had rejoined the Yankees just a few weeks earlier. The replay of that game has been shown on YES.
If I’m not mistaken, they flew to Ohio and back on the day of the funeral and risked forfeiting the game that night, if something went wrong, to attend his funeral. Steinbrenner was adamant that they didn’t care as much about the game as they did about honoring Thurman. Pretty top rate move on his part.
#36/Richard and #37/Dan – thanks for filling me in. I guess “none of the above” would be the correct answer for my #35.
Lawrence, my memory is the same as Dan’s @37. MLB was concerned about the entire team going to the funeral and the team making it back in time for their game, but Steinbrenner basically told them he didn’t care and would risk the automatic forfeit. Perhaps the only time in Steinbrenner’s ownership he was willing to accept a loss.
Not to start a clutch player discussion, but I just noticed that Munson had positive WPA every year of his career. Nice feather, especially considering how bad the Yanks were the first half of his career.
Adam, interesting stuff. I’ve actually checked out your work prior and enjoy it, even as I try and figure out some of the calculations behind them all!
I am curious about rating Torre ahead of others, including Munson. Torre appeared in just a touch over 900 games at catcher, while Munson appeared in just short of 1,300 games, roughly 40% more. The argument for players like Torre and Munson is the difficulty of the position, but once Torre was off the catcher position, and appearing at first base where the WAR threshold is much higher, then that leads to the question if Torre played enough at catcher to be inducted into the HOF based on his catching. Then there is the question of defense, an area that Torre does not score well where Munson did.
I’ve come full circle on Munson over the years, originally thinking he was a HOFer (or assuming he was going to be a HOFer when I was a kid), to not believing he accomplished enough to be a HOFer as I became more focused on advanced metrics, to now once again believing he should be in the HOF, but existing right on that borderline that you mentioned.
Torre, however, remains a question to me. Players with blended careers at multiple positions, especially one like Torre who appeared quite a bit at first, which has a very high WAR threshold, are challenging compared to single-position player like a Munson who was only a catcher and can be judged historically against all catchers. Ultimately, Torre appeared more at other positions than catcher, which gets back to wondering if 900 games at catcher is enough for HOF consideration. I’m not ignoring the rest of his career, but the argument for Torre seems to be based on him going into the HOF as a catcher.
Maybe Torre should have his own post since this one is really about Munson!
Joe Torre is definitely going in the HOF as a manager, rendering questions about his HOF qualifications as a player moot (although it’s a nice little abstract exercise).
We live for abstract exercises here!
Just to be clear. I’m not arguing against Torre as a player. He’s someone I’ve looked at many times, and usually walk away with no clear committment either direction. I was curious about Adam’s perspective sicne he’s firmly in the Torre camp.
I’m totally open to being swayed either direction on borderline cases.
I understand the HOF evaluates greatness as EITHER a player OR a manager, but I would like to see a few people considered under what I would call the “Lifetime Achievement Award”.
For instance, Lou Pinella or Gil Hodges may not be HOFers as either player or manager, but if you consider the totality of their career, they qualify for me. Mike Sciosa might qualify this way in five years.
I’d say the same for Lefty O’Doul, with his longtime involvement in the PCL and introducing baseball to Japan.
It’s meaningless because Torre is a HOF manager and certainly one of the very best player+manager baseball careers in baseball history. His career was not like the great Uecker or anything. His HOF plaque will most certainly read “Player and Manager”. Which reminds me. Ueker’s not getting any younger, he needs to start getting some consideration soon or we’ll miss one of the greatest acceptance speeches ever.
That brings up an interesting question, and it’s perhaps something I once knew but have forgotten.
Can someone be elected twice into the HOF? First as a player, and then as a manager? Has it ever happened?
I’m sure someone could make a case for John McGraw going in as a player as well as a manager.
3,924 at bats (1,099 games) is just too short for a HOF player. To put that into perspective, he managed 4,762 GAMES.
There are clearly worse players in the Hall of Fame though. He accumulated 44.1 WAR in those 1099 games; that’s about the same WAR as Jim Rice in half the games.
Why did McGraw effectively retire at 29? Did he realise he was more valuable as a manager? (BTW, me picking a player whose playing career was cut short but could potentially have been HOF calibre had he had a full career – totally unintentional.)
This is from McGraw’s SABR Bio:
“The Giants finished last that season but rose to second in 1903, even though McGraw’s much-injured knee finally gave out for good during spring training that year, effectively ending his career as a player.”
I actually have McGraw essentially at the HOF borderline (originally, he was in the Hall of wWAR, but a change to how I adjust for short seasons—suggested by John Autin—bumped him out by a little). He’s just below it, hanging with the likes of HOFers Willie Keeler, Joe Kelley, and Bobby Doerr and non-HOFers like Ron Cey, Jack Clark, Harry Stovey, and Frank Tanana.
Fred Clarke and Cap Anson would be the two legitimate candidates as both manager and player I think of first. I think once you’re elected to the baseball HOF, that’s it, you are “in”.
The following were elected to the Basketball HOF as both player and coach:
Bill Sharman
Lenny Wilkens
John Wooden
Did you know that Bill Sharman played in the Dodgers farm system in the early 1950s? He was called up to the parent team at the end of the 1951 season and on Sept. 27 was ejected from the game while sitting on the bench. That made him the only player to be ejected without ever participating in a game.
Frank Chance is another.
Reply to #64
Howard: What I meant was that Sharman never played in any ML game ever.
@66..Richard, I just meant that Chance is another Hall of Fame player that could conceivably also be elected as a manager in response to post 54.
Uke is in the Hall as a Ford Frick winner, his speech was incredible…..
Here it is……..
http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_id=mil&content_id=13107393&topic_id=8878756
I guess it would be appropriate to mention here the story of Ross Youngs’ career. He was in a similar situation as Munson’s. He played for the Giants from 1917 to 1926 and accumulated a .322 BA and a 130 OPS+. He was described by manager John McGraw as his finest outfielder. In his first 8 years he had a .332 BA and 138 OPS+. His stats dropped sharply in 1925 and was later diagnosed with what was then called Bright’s disease, a terminal kidney disease. He gutted out a short season in 1926 batting .306. He succumbed in 1927 at the age of 30. He was selected for the HOF in 1972 by the Veteran’s Committee amid charges of cronyism.
You pull out some great stuff Richard, stuff that I would never have otherwise had any idea about. Your historical perspective is invaluable. Thanks for this.
I was going to say that we can call the 1970s the leader in tragedies to great players (Clemente, Bostock, Munson), but maybe not.
Let’s not forget the untimely tragic deaths of Mike Miley
and Danny Frisella.
Danny Thompson died of leukemia in late 1976 at age 29, after seven MLB seasons. He won the Hutch award in 1974.
Ross Youngs was certainly a fine player, although I doubt he would have been a HOFer. He clearly was a player who was given extra-credit points by the Veteran’s Committee for the years lost after age 29, and really after age 27 when his skills were impacted the disease.
It’s possible he might have made the HOF if he maintained his high level of player into his early 30s and then entered a graducal decline tha allowed him to play into his late 30s or maybe even reaching 40. If so, he might have accumulated 3,000 hits. Overall value delivered, he was an upper 4’s fWAR player, meaning he probably sits somehwere between Nick Swisher and Bobby Abreu.
Good point, Mick. Especially for a guy from Brooklyn.
#43/Brooklyn Mick –
Well, there’s a big difference between Munson and Campy, and of course it’s that Campanella missed 3 to 5 full MLB years at the very start of his career, between WWII and segregation. Even if he becomes a full-time MLB in 1946 (age 24, I don’t think there’s any way Munson would still be comparable to him.
With your handle, I figure you know that…
Lawrence, the main reason I made the comparison between Camp and Thurm is the obvious fact that they both had their careers prematurely ended due to accidents. Also, I thought it was cool that they were both New York guys who were both catchers, and who had, basically, 10 year MLB careers. I thought it was a better comparison than the Kirby Puckett one.
I do, however, believe you have a valid point. When I look at Camp’s Negro League (NL) stats I see a nice slash of .314/.346/.481. The problem is that those numbers are based on only 500 plate appearances over the course of 9 seasons. It makes me wonder why he didn’t play more, and it also makes me wonder if the B-R stats are accurate. At any rate, he played in the NL until the age of 23.
In 1946, his age 24 season, he became a Dodger. He spent 1946 and 1947 in the Minors before being called up during the 1948 season. His career Minors slash was .287/.349/.487. Very good numbers, but again, I wonder why he wasn’t called up sooner. Was he ready? Or were there still some “politics” going on as far as integration. I simply don’t know, which is why I don’t think there’s a way to accurately speculate how he would have done during the 3-5 years he missed any more than we can speculate how Munson would have done had he played another 5-7 years.
That being said, I think they were both great ballplayers who both belong in the Hall of Fame.
In closing, BRING DA DODGERS BACK TO BROOKLYN!
I support the Dodgers returning to Brooklyn! They were before my time (the Brooklyn part of the Dodgers, that is) but being a baseball fan who goes to see both Yankee and Met games, as well as minor league games in the region, I’d happily welcome a third MLB team (back) to NY. They’ll be a cold wind blowing in Hades, though, before either NY team allows that to happen, and certainly not the Mets considering the league and the specific team. I’m also guessing the folks out in LA might have a slight issue, too.
As for Campy’s Negro League numbers, I know they’ve been mentioned here, but to me they do anything to strenthen or weaken his case. To me three-time MVP Campy is an obvious HOFer, so nothing else is need, but being elected to MLB’s HOF should be based on what the player did in MLB.
We can’t give credit to Munson for what he might have done if he lived, or Campy on what else he might have done had he not been injured. I also don’t think it’s proper to try and incorporate his Negro League stats since it was not MLB. The same for Ichiro when his time comes up on the ballot. What he did in Japan should carry no weight toward his HOF election, not that he’ll need it. His unique MLB career will carry him in.
As for Campy’s delay in reaching the Majors, it doesn’t some unusual. First, while he held his own, it doesn’t quite appear he was tearing apart AAA ball in ’47. He elevated his game in ’48 and was then called up to the majors. The catcher position still presents more challenges for players breaking in immediately, no matter how skilled.
Just a few thoughts.
Mike, while I would love to see the Dodgers move back to Brooklyn, I realize it will never happen, but I still like to say it.
As for Campy’s delay in reaching the Majors, I was responding to Lawrence’s assertion that Campy missed 3-5 years due to segregation, and I’m not sure that’s the case. He may have been ready and other factors got in the way, but the fact remains that although he didn’t get his call-up until his age 26 season, his first truly “great” year was his age 29 season, when he bagan his run of 3 MVP’s in a 5 year period.
A big reason was that the Dodgers already had a good young and popular catcher in Bruce Edwards. Edwards was only 23 in 1947 when he batted .295 with 80 RBIs for the pennant winners, was named to the all-star team and was fourth in the NL MVP voting. That sounds like a guy with a future so it was no simple thing to just give Campanella the job.
Thanks Howard. Good point.
Hey Brooklyn Mick:
As for Campanella’s Negro League stats showing only 500 plate appearances, that’s mainly because the official seasons were short and there aren’t records for a lot of the games actually played. Look up Josh Gibson and you’ll find under 2000 appearances in eighteen years. Also, If Campy played in the Negro Leagues for 9 years, until he was 23, then he started at age 15, meaning he was probably being broken in at first. He appears to have played for awhile in the Mexican league, too, possibly taking away from his time in the States.
I think Branch Rickey had something to do with holding Campanella back as well. Campy was a sweet natured, gentle guy, and Rickey may have wanted to season him a little to playing in a hostile racial atmosphere before bringing him up to the Dodgers. He wasn’t a college man military officer like Jackie Robinson, by any means.
Thank you NSB. I had a feeling that the Negro League stats were probably incomplete.
@ Lawrence Azrin
I agree about the “lifetime achievement” concept. I think one guy who is easily overlooked but who certainly qualifies is Larry Dierker. As a young pitcher, he was every bit the equal of Tom Seaver. Throwing 300+ innings in 1969 at age 23 likely shortened his career and would be unheard of today. For many years he was a columnist for the Chronicle and he has authored a couple of books. He was one of the finest color guys in the booth for several years before he went back down to the field to manage. I think he took the team to the playoffs 4 out of the five years he managed. In short, there was not a single aspect of the game he did not excel in.
A few additional supportive stats for Munson that I pulled from a B-R blog that ran on the topic of catchers a little more than a year back.
In WAR-per-game-played, Munson ranks fourth all time among catchers.
Rk Player WAR/G
1 Mickey Cochrane .03455
2 Johnny Bench .03304
3 Mike Piazza .03091
4 Thurman Munson .03050
5 Bill Dickey .03041
6 Roy Campanella .02979
7 Yogi Berra .02920
8 Gary Carter .02889
9 Jack Clements .02750
10 Carlton Fisk .02693
11 Ivan Rodriguez .02679
12 Gabby Hartnett .02526
13 Jorge Posada .02499
14 Bill Freehan .02441
15 Wally Schang .02379
Chiming in at #4 all-time certainly doesn’t hurt Munson’s HOF case, although the flaw here should be obvious. Munson never had a substantial decline phase because of his sudden end. (The same can be said of Campy.) His WAR/G average certainly would have dropped had he played several more years. Andy picked up on this and re-ran the list to level the playing field to see where Munson would rank WAR/G for all catchers through age 32 (Munson’s last season) and who also caught at least 1,000 games. Munson did drop, although still scored quite well, remaining in the top ten at #8 all time.
1 Mike Piazza, 0.041812401
2 Gary Carter, 0.037203791
3 Johnny Bench, 0.037133724
4 Mickey Cochrane, 0.034656272
5 Bill Dickey, 0.033850702
6 Yogi Berra, 0.032971506
7 Ivan Rodriguez, 0.032480091
8 Thurman Munson, 0.030498946
9 Ted Simmons, 0.027429206
10 Bill Freehan, 0.026216045
11 Darrell Porter, 0.024012945
12 Jason Kendall, 0.023495146
13 Gabby Hartnett, 0.023452769
14 Manny Sanguillen, 0.023285199
15 Jim Sundberg, 0.020886981
So while Munson’t peak was not quite as “peaky” as a few other catchers, it was still quite high, one of the top eight all time. Once again, nothing here that doesn’t support his HOF case.
If Munson had the advantages of today’s medicine, arthroscopic surgery would have addressed his knee and shoulder issues, preventing much of the decline we saw that last year or so. Obviously the plane crash is another story, but Munson playing today would have been able to accumulate a career higher WAR, yet the same could be said for other players in the past, too.
Anyone interested in reliving the past, here’s the original thread from B-R. Credit to Steve Lombardi(does he post over here?) and Andy. I did not participate in the conversation for whatever reason, but I do remember reading it, so I went and found it!
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/14231#comments
Thanks for all the great commentary on Thurman Munson. He and Gene Tenace were my two favorite players in the 70’s.
The day Thurman’s plane crashed, my mom called me at work with the news. My best friend and I broke down and cried. I was twenty-three years old, and he was the first hero I had lost. He was a great ballplayer, and leader and inspired me every time I tried to play catcher.
Again, thanks for sharing these memories.
It’s nice to read these reflections of Thurman. As a Yankee fan
since 1976 Thurman was my favorite player on the late 70’s edition.
I will never forget August 2, 1979. Twelve years old, coming home
from day camp and I turn on WNEW channel five to see a visibly shaken
John Roland report that Thurman Munson was dead.
I lost it, and was hysterical the rest of that evening.
Four days later I cried again when they introduced Munson’s widow prior
to the game against Baltimore. As I remember it, the fans went nuts for
what seemed like ten minutes.
I will never forget the game that followed. Bobby Murcer’s performance
was a gift from above.
As for the rest of that season, it didn’t seem to matter. I remember it
seemed as if both the fans and the team were going through the motions.
For a 12-year-old boy, 1979 taught me that while it is great to see your
team win, baseball is just a game. What really matters is family. For
many months prior to Thurman’s death we had been reading in the papers
how Thurm wanted to be traded to Cleveland so he could be closer to his family.
It should be noted that Thurman was practicing takeoffs and landings that
day. He was putting in the hours needed to get his license to fly.
Thurman you see wanted to be able to fly to Cleveland on off days to spend
time with his family.
So, to sum this all up, everyone here agrees that it’s a crime that both Munson and Nettles aren’t in the HOF, right? And we’re going to start an organization to get them in. Send donations to start the organization to me.
All the people who say he doesn’t belong
In his era he was the most dominant catcher in the American League
All pitchers feared him
If not for Bench he would probably be in the Hall
In the clutch he was by far then his peers in then league
I used to be skeptical about Munson as a HOFer, but now I believe.
1) He’s 13th in career WAR among catchers, and 9th through age 32.
2) A key contributor in two championships and three pennants.
3) His postseason value was even greater than suggested by the raw numbers (.357/.874). In 30 games, his combined WPA was 1.467 — or 7.34 WPA per 150 games. That’s higher than anyone in MLB last year.
P.S. Most catchers who carry a heavy workload have little value after age 32, anyway. Of the 20 besides Munson who caught 1200+ games through age 32, the median WAR from age 33 onward was just 2.7, with only five guys posting as much as 5 more WAR.
Munson belongs in the HOF based on hitting and fielding that produced a career WAR that ranks very highly for a catcher (top 15 all time). His WAR per game played is top 5 all time for the position. Only a small percentage of catchers caught as many games or innings. Almost every inning he played was as a catcher. Had he played in a hitters era his Raw numbers would have been higher. He was a regular all star, a ROY, MVP, 3x gold glover and captain of 2 World Series winning teams.
Let’s put Thurman Munson’s 0.357 post-season batting average in the perspective it deserves. Among the 500 players in the history of baseball who have the most post-season ABs, exactly 7 of those 500 players have a higher post-season batting average than Thurman Munson… exactly 7. None of those 7 players have more post-season ABs than Thurman, none of them have more post-season hits than Thurman, none of them were Catchers, and ALL 7 of them are in the Hall Of Fame. They are, as follows:
Lou Gehrig
Hank Aaron
Lou Brock
Paul Molitor
Carl Yastrzemski
Frank Home Run Baker
John Montgomery Award
Thurman as at his best when his team needed him the most. His post-season batting average is 98 points higher than that of the average Hall of Fame Catcher. The Hall of Fame without Thurman Munson is missing a very important contributor to the game at the position of Catcher.
As the first Captain of the Yankees since Gehrig, it was his responsibility to be at his best when the team needed him the most, and unambiguously he delivered.
I have to comment as well on the sentiment that he “was in decline” in his last years. Between 1975 and 1978, the four full seasons prior to his death, he became the first Catcher in the history of baseball to deliver 4 consecutive season of at least 180 hits and set a still standing record of 788 total hits in a 4 year period for a Catcher combining both regular season (742) and post-season hits (46). He showed up every day and gave his best.
He belongs. No other Catcher in the Hall of Fame comes anywhere close to Thurman’s post-season batting record.
Let’s put Thurman Munson’s 0.357 post-season batting average in the perspective it deserves. Among the 500 players in the history of baseball who have the most post-season ABs, exactly 7 of those 500 players have a higher post-season batting average than Thurman Munson… exactly 7. None of those 7 players have more post-season ABs than Thurman, none of them have more post-season hits than Thurman, none of them were Catchers, and ALL 7 of them are in the Hall Of Fame. They are, as follows:
Lou Gehrig
Hank Aaron
Lou Brock
Paul Molitor
Carl Yastrzemski
Frank Home Run Baker
John Montgomery Award
Thurman as at his best when his team needed him the most. His post-season batting average is 98 points higher than that of the average Hall of Fame Catcher. The Hall of Fame without Thurman Munson is missing a very important contributor to the game at the position of Catcher.
As the first Captain of the Yankees since Gehrig, it was his responsibility to be at his best when the team needed him the most, and unambiguously he delivered.
I have to comment as well on the sentiment that he “was in decline” in his last years. Between 1975 and 1978, the four full seasons prior to his death, he became the first Catcher in the history of baseball to deliver 4 consecutive seasons of at least 180 hits and set a still standing record of 788 total hits in a 4 year period for a Catcher combining both regular season (742) and post-season hits (46). He showed up every day and gave his best.
No other Catcher in the Hall of Fame comes anywhere close to Thurman’s post-season batting record. He belongs.
Regarding my previous post, to qualify as being among the top 500 players in the history of baseball with the most post-season ABs a player must have at least 65 post-season ABs. Actually there are exactly 502 players, I just rounded it to 500 to make it easy. I derived this data from Sean Lahman’s Post-season Archives.
So, again, to be clear: in that audience of the 502 players in baseball history with the most post-season ABs, exactly 7 of those players have a higher post-season batting average than Thurman Munson’s 0.357. And every one of those 7 players is in the Hall of Fame and none of them were Catchers.
Question on Postseason WPA
On December 1, 2012 @ 3:54pm John Autin made a post which seems to reference Munson WPA in his 30 postseason games… Does anyone know where/how I can find this data? I’ve never heard about a postseason WPA or WAR, and I’m very interested in statistically significant comparison of Munson’s postseason batting and defensive stats to those metrics for other catchers.
Thanks, any help is much appreciated.
If you are a PI subscriber go to the PI and set it for:
Batting Game Finder
Players with Most Matching Games in Multiple Years
Postseason
Defensive position = C
Get Report
A list of all catchers’ offensive stats will appear. There are 337 catchers on the list. Tops in WPA is Johnny Bench with 1.6. In a tie for second are Munson and Gary Carter with 1.5. Jorge Posada is dead last with -2.6.
Thank you very much Richard. To date I’ve done all my research using Sean Lahman’s Archives and Baseball Reference but I’m at the point where I need to learn about things like WPA and where to easily make comparisons between players. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
For what it is worth, Thurman Munson is the only Catcher in history to throw out at least 3 runners attempting to steal in 6 different postseason series… And he is the only Catcher in history who threw out at least 7 runners attempting to steal in 3 different postseasons. 9 in 76 / 8 in 77 / 7 in 78
He is also 2nd all time in postseason CS with 24 in only 30 games!
Posada is #1 with 33 CS in 124 games.
Thurman Munson is the only Catcher in history to win a Rookie of the Year Award, an MVP Award, a Gold Glove Award, win a World Series Championship, and Catch a Cy Young Award-winning Pitcher.
O.K.but Bill Freehan was an ELEVEN-TIME Al-Star Catcher and STILL NO TUMBLE FOR COOPERSTOWN?Explain that one,Billy Boy,since you’re four years older than I and obviously remember the great Tigers receiver.