68 thoughts on “Gary Carter 1954-2012”

1. vivaeljason February 16, 2012 at 8:28 pm

   I wrote this on my facebook, and I think it sums up my feelings on Gary Carter (I’m 28, by the way):

   I feel like when you’re a little kid and you first get into a sport and a team there is that one guy that you watch and consider THE embodiment of the game. For example, Yankees fans our age had Don Mattingly; Phillies fans had Mike Schmidt. Mets fans our age — we had options: Hernandez, Strawberry, Gooden, and so on. That said, mine was Gary Carter. In a lot of ways, Gary Carter is a representative image of my childhood. Thanks for all of the memories, Kid, and rest in peace.

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2. Steven Page February 16, 2012 at 8:44 pm

   From 1974-79 I tried to never miss an Expos game at Atlanta Stadium, and Gary Carter was the primary reason. He was talented, tough and a credit to the game on and off the field. My prayers go out to his family at this sad time. Gary gave the fans a lifetime of great memories and i feel blessed to have been able to watch him play.

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3. Dave V. February 16, 2012 at 9:26 pm

   While I’m not a Mets fan, Gary Carter was one of the good guys. He’ll be missed by all true baseball fans. RIP.

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   1. SocraticGadfly February 17, 2012 at 1:51 pm

      I’ll be honest. Per a later post, when he was with the Mets, especially, and as a Cards fan, I thought he was smarmy, maybe even a bit fake. That said, my perception has modified in more recent years.

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4. Dr. Doom February 16, 2012 at 10:36 pm

   Great, great player. I wish I would have had a chance to really watch him. Subjectively, I’d put him at the #3 catcher of all-time, behind Berra and Bench – pretty good company. He will be missed.

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   1. Lawrence Azrin February 17, 2012 at 11:32 am

      Subjectively, I’d put him just outside the Top-5 all-time catchers, behind (in order):
      Berra, Bench, Piazza, Cochrane, and Campanella, maybe I-Rod, and in the same grouping as Fisk, Dickey, Hartnett. I always thought of him as roughly the equivalent of Fisk, and their WAR is scarily close.

      He was a bit underrated, since by 1979-80, Johnny Bench was clearly established as the best catcher, not just at that time but perhaps of all-time.

      Of course, the biggest subjective variance in value is defensive value, which can vary enourmously. Both defensive WAR and Gold Gloves do confirm that he was one of the best defensive catchers.

      “The Kid” was one of those players it was hard to dislike, even if he was on your least favorite team (such as in 1986, when he hit two HR against the Red Sox in Game 4 of the 1986 WS). He really seemed to enjoy playing baseball and being in the big leagues. His demise was sad and shocking in its rapidity.

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      1. Dr. Doom February 17, 2012 at 11:43 am

         Campanella is the tough one, of course, because of lack of data. But I use an objective system that ranks him #2 (also where Adam Darowski’s wWAR puts him). I would definitely have him ahead of Fisk, Dickey, Hartnett, and Cochrane, Rodriguez, and probably Campanella as well. Also ahead of Piazza, but by a lesser margin. It’s very close between him and Yogi. My gut reaction is to put Yogi above him, but I think a purely statistical ranking would indicate otherwise (if one uses WAR as the basis of such a system). Bench, as I see it, is the only player who can definitively top Carter on both career and peak value, so I don’t think #2 is unreasonable, though I see the arguments for putting him lower.

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5. birtelcom February 16, 2012 at 11:02 pm

   Highest Win Probability Added game by a catcher in the history of major league baseball post-season play. Game 1, NLCS, 1988. Mets are down 2-1 in the top of the 9th, men on first and second, two outs, count is 0-2, Carter bloops a double to put the Mets ahead to stay. http://www.nytimes.com/1988/10/05/sports/mets-bring-hershiser-s-streak-to-a-crashing-halt.html?scp=5&sq=Carter&st=nyt

   Thanks for everything, Kid!

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6. John Autin February 16, 2012 at 11:29 pm

   Sad day for the Carter family and baseball fans.

   For the 10 years 1977-86, Carter trailed only Mike Schmidt in combined WAR. The top 10:

   Rk,Player,WAR/pos
   1,Mike Schmidt,73.6
   2,Gary Carter,58.0
   3,George Brett,57.5
   4,Keith Hernandez,53.4
   5,Rickey Henderson,51.1
   6,Robin Yount,50.9
   7,Eddie Murray,49.1
   8,Buddy Bell,45.2
   9,Andre Dawson,44.0
   10,Chet Lemon,43.0

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   1. John Q February 17, 2012 at 10:05 am

      That’s a great list!

      In retrospect Gary Carter was an extremely underrated player from ’77-86 which probably had a lot to do with playing in Canada all those years. It also hurt that the Expos only made the post season once (1981) from 1977-1984. Most media members would rate him as a great player from that era but I doubt any media members realize that he was among the top 3 players in baseball for a ten year period from ’77-86. Carter’s career is also a good example of the limitations of just rating players by “zero ending decades” like the ’70’s, 80’s etc.

      Carter was one of the top 3 players in a decade but it just happened that decade started with a “7” and ended with a “6”.

      I think it’s also total BS that the Nationals/Expos have “un-retired” Carter’s uniform #8 giving it to such immortals as Jorge Padilla, Aaron Boone, Chris Snelling and Marlon Anderson. They also have “un-retired” #10 from Staub and Dawson and #30 from Tim Raines.

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      1. vivaeljason February 17, 2012 at 2:38 pm

         To be fair, the Nationals consider themselves a different team. To put it in perspective, the Orioles don’t honor any players from St. Louis Browns history (It isn’t hard to put the browns logo and george sisler’s name amongst retired players). They’ve chosen to eschew history.

         Same topic but even weirder is that the Miami Marlins have unretired “5.” Admittedly, it was unwise of them to retire 5 in the first place, but the fact that the number was retired and has now been issued is even stranger.

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         1. John Q February 17, 2012 at 5:34 pm

            Well the difference with Sisler is that his number was never retired because I don’t think he wore a number.

            Roy Campanella and Jackie Robinson never played for the Los Angeles Dodgers and they Dodgers still honor those players. Pee Wee Reese only played one year in L.A. and his number is retired by the Dodgers.

            Bill Terry, Mel Ott, Carl Hubbel, and Monte Irvin never played in San Francisco yet their numbers are retired by the Giants. The Giants honor John McGraw and Christy Mathewson who never played in San Francisco.

            Warren Spahn never played in Atlanta yet his number is retired by the Braves. Eddie Mathews only played 1 year in Atlanta yet his number is retired by the Braves.

            The Nationals aren’t an expansion team they were the Expos and they should respect their history and respect the fact that four players had their numbers retired.

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            1. vivaeljason February 17, 2012 at 10:56 pm

               Sisler didn’t wear a number — but that didn’t stop the Tigers from putting up Ty Cobb’s name, nor the Giants with Christy Mathewson or the Phillies with Grover Alexander.
            2. John Q February 17, 2012 at 11:31 pm

               Well I was specifically talking about retiring a number and then un-retiring the number when the team leaves town. That seems kind of classless to me.

               The Orioles should put up something to honor George Sisler considering he’s in the HOF. And really they should put up something honoring Bobby Wallace as well. It just seems kind of short-sighted not honoring your own history.

               The Orioles aren’t an expansion team that just started playing in 1953. The Browns were around for about 50 years and the Orioles should honor that history like the Dodgers, Giants, Braves honor their history.
   2. vivaeljason February 17, 2012 at 2:35 pm

      Keith Hernandez was the best first baseman in baseball for a decade…he’s not in the hall of fame…why?

      Legitimate question, mind you. I always assumed that because of my Mets fandom that I just had clouded judgment but given that he’s fourth on the WAR list for a ten year period — and by definition the best at his position due to the other three ahead of him NOT being 1Bs — it boggles the mind.

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      1. Lawrence Azrin February 17, 2012 at 3:56 pm

         Counter argument: If you took the entire history of MLB and broke it up into separate 10-year periods (not counting just the years that end in “0”), you’d have well over 100 ten-year periods. So, if you say someone is “the best player in baseball at a position over a decade”, well SOMEONE has to fit the description, and there’s well over 100 of those descriptions to fill. Some of those players will be HOFers, but many will not be.

         So while it’s interesting that Keith Hernandez was probably the best first baseman in baseball from 1977-1986 (I still might take Eddie Murray), that’s not a powerful argument for his HOF case. Chet Lemon on the 1977-1986 WAR list above is the best-ranked centerfielder, but that’s not really a good argument. He got exactly one vote his first time on the HOF ballot, and no one I know has ever considered him a legitimate HOF candidate.

         You need to argue that Hernandez would fit in comfortably with the first basemen _already_ in the HOF, as opposed to being on this one particular list.

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         1. birtelcom February 17, 2012 at 4:08 pm

            Regarding Chet Lemon: Gary Carter and Dennis Eckersley, both Hall of Famers, were drafted in the third round of the 1972 June draft (the 53rd and 50th overall picks in that draft, respetively). Highest career WAR accumulated by anybody picked higher in that draft than Eck and Carter was Chet Lemon, the 22nd overall pick that year.

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      2. birtelcom February 17, 2012 at 4:20 pm

         Most WAR over the full ten-year periood from 1954 through 1963, by a guy who played at least half his games at first base, was 28.3 by Roy Sievers. Just an illustration of what L.Az. is saying: being the best at your position over a particular 10-year period is not really a HOF qualification in itself.

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         1. Lawrence Azrin February 17, 2012 at 4:45 pm

            Hey birtelcom,

            Thanks for backing me up, and being more conversant with the B-R PI than I am.

            Vivaeljason, despite my counterargument, I do consider Hernandez a legitimate HOF candidate, along with Will Clark (and Dick Allen if you call him a 1bman). His offense is a bit underrated because he was more an OBP-type than a big slugger, plus offensive levels were a bit below-average the historical norms most of his career.

            However, he is not the most deserving HOF candidate, but rather one of a pool of 25/30 candidates deserving of serious consideration.

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            1. Dr. Remulak February 18, 2012 at 8:59 am

               Agree, Hernandez is HOF worthy, but he must wait for Mattingly first. Similar career stats, right down to the gold gloves, but Mattingly had a multi-year stretch of dominance that is a big part of what the HOF should be about: Greatness!
7. bluejaysstatsgeek February 16, 2012 at 11:34 pm

   “I know that some criticized Carter, saying that his happy-go-lucky persona was engineered to curry favor with the public and increase his endorsement revenue. If so, he was damned good at faking it, because he always had that same enthusiasm and charm, and he did it all while earning himself a spot in the Hall of Fame as one of the game’s best catchers.”

   Today, on Prime Time Sports, Bob McCown talked quite a bit about Carter and told about the first time they spent any significant time together, paired in the same cart at a celebrity golf tournament. McCown said that the Carter he spend six hours with on the course was the same Carter you’d see during and after baseball games: smiling, happy, the great guy around. McCown’s point was that it wasn’t an act, Carter saw himself as a really fortunate guy to be so well-paid playing a game he loved.

   I wish there were more players with his love and passion for the game.

   The Baseball World lost a Hall of Fame player, but mankind has lost a Hall of Fame person.

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   1. Ed February 19, 2012 at 8:10 am

      For anyone who doubts Carter’s sincerity, here’s a great story from today’s Cleveland Plain Dealer:

      This email came from Chuck Nicklow in San Francisco:
      “When I was an 11-year-old kid, I sat in the bleachers and watched Gary Carter hit two home runs to win the All Star Game MVP honors in Cleveland. The Kid, as he was known by his teammates, was one of my favorite players. Even though I was a die-hard Cleveland Indians fan, I had an Expos hat to prove it.

      “After the game, I found him in the players lot, and he spent what felt like an eternity with me, almost one on one. Thirty years later, and I’ve never forgotten how special he made me feel on one of the biggest days of his career.”

      http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2012/02/terry_plutos_talkin_about_the_46.html

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8. DaveR February 17, 2012 at 12:08 am

   He sure was a joy to watch. Why do I still think he was underrated, even though he’s in the Hall?

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   1. Dr. Doom February 17, 2012 at 11:46 am

      I agree, DaveR. It took him a ridiculously long time to get into the Hall, when one considers his quality as a player. He definitely should have gone in ahead of Carlton Fisk. If you compare the two players at their peaks, there’s no question Carter was the better player. Fisk was just an adequate player for a lot longer time, and so wound up with flashier career numbers (and all of the catcher-as-hitter-career-records, which look really good to voters). But I think Carter was the better player.

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      1. Lawrence Azrin February 17, 2012 at 12:21 pm

         Dr.Doom – I agree that Carter was (similar to Mathews and Snider in that he was… ) an obvious HOF, and it was just absurd that it took _six_ years for him to get in. But remember, Bench is the ONLY catcher to be a first-ballot HOFer. Yogi took two years, Mickey 6, Campy 7, Dickey 9, and Gabby 11 years.

         I think the problem with the BBWAA is the same as with third basemen, in that they they expect catchers to not only be good defensively, but also hit as well as the best corner OFers or 1bmen.

         I do disagree that he is obviously better than Fisk, and especially that Fisk was “just an adequate player”. Adequate players don’t have 20+ careers at Fisk’s level. Carter’s peak is better, but Fisk had a better career.

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         1. Dr. Doom February 17, 2012 at 12:53 pm

            Good call on correcting me. I guess what I mean by “adequate” is that Fisk only has 5 seasons of 4+ WAR. Compare that to Carter (8), Bench (10), Berra (6), Piazza (9), or whomever, and you see that it just isn’t that many. And 4 WAR is not some incredible number. He was an above-average player for a really long time, and had a really nice career. He’s the Nolan Ryan of catchers. That doesn’t make him a bad player, I just think that his overall value is less than someone with a superior peak.

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            1. John Autin February 17, 2012 at 1:55 pm

               How about the Lou Whitaker of catchers?
         2. Dr. Doom February 17, 2012 at 12:53 pm

            Those are all rWAR (or bWAR, if you prefer) numbers, by the way.

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            1. Andy February 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm

               I have been chastised elsewhere for using the term bWAR because I didn’t know about the term rWAR. It should be rWAR.
            2. John Autin February 17, 2012 at 2:09 pm

               … and the “r” in rWAR means what, exactly?
            3. Dr. Doom February 17, 2012 at 2:16 pm

               “r” stands for “Rally,” which was Sean Smith’s “name” on the internets (named after the Rally Monkey, I believe).

               Most people consider it to be “correct” to go with rWAR, as I do, as it gives credit to the creator of the formula, rather than just the host website.
         3. John Autin February 17, 2012 at 1:08 pm

            Weighing in on Carter vs. Fisk….

            I think each of you made a good point:

            — If your HOF test gives any significant weight to peak value, Carter easily trumps Fisk. Seasons of 6+ WAR — Carter 5, Fisk 3. Seasons of 5+ WAR — Carter 8, Fisk 4. Best 3 seasons — Carter 21.2, Fisk 20.

            — On the other hand, Fisk was certainly not “just adequate” for any significant number of seasons. Fisk had 21 seasons of 200+ PAs. In 16 of those 21 years, he had at least 2.6 WAR, and in 18 of 21 he had at least 1.2 WAR. Fisk never had 2 straight years below 3.1 WAR until age 43-44.

            BTW, Adam Darowski’s Hall of Weighted WAR has Carter as the #2 catcher of all time, and closer to #1 Bench than to #3 Fisk.

            But Fisk’s 13 years of 3+ WAR are tied for the most all-time (tied with Bench and I-Rod).

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            1. Dr. Doom February 17, 2012 at 2:07 pm

               Like I said, “just adequate” was not a fair thing to say. It’s just that a lot of Fisk’s value is tied up in 2.0-3.9 WAR season, unlike Carter, who gets comparatively little of his value from years such as those. I said adequate, and I shouldn’t have. But my point was that while Fisk was above average almost every year of his career (a remarkable feat for a career that long, especially at that position), he wasn’t transcendent as often as Carter. If I were building a team, and I got to choose only one of the two as my catcher, and I were to get them exactly as their careers played out, I would pick Carter, because I think that he would give me a better chance at winning pennants. That’s just my opinion, though.

               Also, your Lou Whitaker comparison above is not a bad one either, JA. The point is, like Ryan or Whitaker, Fisk is a slam-dunk Hall of Fame player (or should I say, as Whitaker should be).
            2. Dr. Doom February 17, 2012 at 2:14 pm

               Okay, so I wrote something I actually want to back up with numbers.

               10.8 out of Carter’s 66.3 rWAR is in seasons of 2.0-3.9 WAR (16.3%).

               Overall, 15.9 WAR is in seasons <= 3.9 WAR (24%).

               35.6 of Fisk's 67.3 WAR is in seasons of 2.0-3.9 WAR (52.9%).

               Overall, 37.7 WAR is in seasons <= 3.9 WAR (56%).
      2. birtelcom February 17, 2012 at 3:01 pm

         Carter was probably somewhat underrated because, perhpas (1) he played most of his prime in Montreal, a bit out of the spotlight, (2) he played in the shadow of Johnny Bench’s career, which was winding down as Carter’s was getting going — not clear that fans were ready for another “greatest NL catcher ever” candidate so soon after Bench had been widely and properly acclaimed as the holder of that title, (3) his enormous value was the product of a balance of offensive and defensive value rather than wildly eye-catching numbers on the hitting side where they would tend to get the most attention, (4) catchers just can’t physically accumulate the 3,000 hit/500 homer type numbers that players at less physically destructive positions can gather up.

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9. Doug February 17, 2012 at 1:20 am

   Look at Scott Rolen, one spot ahead of Carter on the second list, far ahead of the Kid on rBat and comfortably ahead on rField.

   Big surprise for me. Not something I would have guessed. By a long shot.

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   1. birtelcom February 17, 2012 at 1:24 am

      Catcher defensive value is hard to measure with certainty, but for what it’s worth, b-ref ranks Carter’s 1983 season as the best season in terms of fielding value (WAR defensive runs)by any catcher in MB history (just ahead of a couple of I-Rod seasons, which suggests the system is on the right track).

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   2. Doug February 17, 2012 at 2:00 am

      Tangent. But, Scott Rolen has played every game of his career (1936 and counting) at 3B.

      Of course, Rolen hasn’t retired yet, but only others over 1500 games to do this: Willie Kamm (1693), Home Run Baker (1575).

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   3. John Autin February 17, 2012 at 2:07 pm

      Most seasons of 4+ WAR by a third baseman:
      13, Schmidt & Mathews
      10, Rolen & Boggs
      9, Brett, Santo, Brooksie, Chipper, Nettles

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   4. vivaeljason February 17, 2012 at 2:44 pm

      Scott Rolen is perhaps the most vastly underrated player of the current era. He’s eighth on the all time WAR list for third basemen. Only Schmidt, Mathews, Boggs, Brett, Chipper Jones, Brooks Robinson, and Ron Santo are ahead of him. I wouldn’t suggest Rolen is a hall of famer, but he is worth discussing when his time comes up.

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      1. Hartvig February 17, 2012 at 6:03 pm

         I suspect that Rolen will get far less consideration for the HOF than he deserves for several reasons:
         1) he was originally compared to Mike Schmidt and when he didn’t quite live up to that standard he was considered something of a disappointment
         2) his best season was overshadowed by 2 of his own teammates (Pujols & Edmonds)
         3) he was an exact contemporary of Chipper Jones who was not only slightly better but only played for one team while Rolen:
         4) played for 4 different teams and was traded twice during the season (which ignores the fact that the teams he was traded too benefited greatly but it’s still perceived as a negative)
         5) he was also perceived as being brittle & injury prone or, put another way, his numbers were kept down by never playing more than 142 games after age 28 or 133 after age 31
         6) a lot of his value was as a defender and while he had a reputation as a very good defensive player he was generally not viewed as good as Schmidt, nevermind Brooks Robinson.

         All that being said, I think he’s one of the 10 or 12 greatest 3rd basemen of all time and would vote for him in a heartbeat.

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         1. vivaeljason February 17, 2012 at 11:00 pm

            Yeah…I wouldn’t be shocked if Rolen didn’t even get 5% on his first time because of all those factors. I put him in that same class as Kenny Lofton. Looking at WAR, Lofton is I think 10th all time at CF but I can’t see him getting any real consideration.

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   5. Paul E February 18, 2012 at 1:03 am

      Doug:
      Rolen hurt his back sliding into third base in the early part of his Phila years, got plain ran over in the baseline fielding a batted ball in the playoffs while playing for St Louis, and then ran into Heep Sop Choi (?) running out an infield grounder. Without injuries like busted clavicles and separated shoulders, Rolen would have been a first-ballot HoF’er – 1) infield arm like Caminiti 2) as good a glove and range as Nettles, Schmidt, and Beltre 3) hit with power 4) hit for average and took a walk 5) ran the bases with anger going 1st to 3rd as well as guys 50 pounds lighter….other than that, he wasn’t much of a ballplayer

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      1. Doug February 18, 2012 at 12:53 pm

         Well said, Paul.

         Yet, somehow Rolen slips under the radar. Unfortunate, as I don’t envy his HOF chances, particularly being a third baseman.

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10. birtelcom February 17, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    Players who played in a World Series from 1986 through 2011 and have since passed away:

    Gary Carter played on the winning team in 1986, Kirby Puckett and Joe Niekro played on the winning team in 1987, and Kirby again played on the winning team in 1991.

    Bob Forsch played on the losing team in 1987, Jose Uribe played on the losing team in 1989, and Ken Caminiti played on the losing team in 1998.

    If you go back in time one more year to include 1985, three players in that World Series have since passed away: Dan Quisenberry played for the winners, Bob Forsch and Darrell Porter for the losers.

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    1. Doug February 18, 2012 at 12:50 pm

       And Eric Show, going back to 1984.

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       1. DaveR February 18, 2012 at 11:26 pm

          Alan Wiggins has also passed away, from that ’84 Padres team.

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11. Doug February 17, 2012 at 11:39 pm

    150 Rbat and 150 Rfield.

    Only Bonds, Mays, Kaline, Ripken, Yaz, Clemente, McPhee, and Gordon. (Davis, Frisch, Rolen and Ventura are close).

    200 Rbat and 200 Rfield.

    Only Clemente. (Bonds and Yaz are close).

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12. John Autin February 18, 2012 at 12:24 am

    OK, here’s some meaningless Gary Carter trivia:

    — He’s one of 8 players with a 3-HR game in Mets franchise history, and one of 8 to do the same in Expos/Nationals history. In each case, one of Carter’s teammates had a 3-HR game the same season — and in no other season did either franchise have two 3-HR games. He was the first ever to do it for Montreal, connecting 3 times off Jim Rooker on April 20, 1977. (Later that year, he hit 2 HRs in a game off Rooker.)

    — Bench and Carter rank 1-2 in career HRs off Steve Carlton, with 12 and 11. They had remarkably similar lines against Lefty: .305/.310 in BA, .417/.400 in OBP and .648/.672 in SLG.

    — On the other hand, Carter never connected off Fernando Valenzuela in 89 PAs.

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13. Doug February 18, 2012 at 12:39 am

    More meaningless Carter trivia.

    Carter ranks 8th in career WAR among players who died within 20 years of their final season. The top 10.

    Ruth, 172
    Gehrig, 118.4
    Ott, 109.3
    Clemente, 83.8
    Arky Vaughan, 75.6
    Paul Waner, 73.8
    Harry Heilmann, 69.4
    Gary Carter, 66.3
    Al Simmons, 63.6
    Jackie Robinson, 63.2

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14. apbadogs February 18, 2012 at 7:42 am

    I would be many people compare Carter’s “fakeness” to Steve Garvey’s…problem is, Carter wasn’t fake and Garvey turned out to be a fraud. Looking at Carter’s stats I didn’t realize how good he was offensively. Wow. A couple of things, isn’t Carter’s swing, with his back foot flying out, the weirdest power stroke ever? And, how cool is it that is last hit was over the head of his former Expo teammate?

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    1. Dr. Doom February 19, 2012 at 12:40 am

       Actually, I got to thinking about the Dawson thing. Of the three “young” Expos who came up from 1974-79 (Carter, Dawson, Raines), how is it that worst player of the three wound up with the lone MVP award?

       In 1984, Carter led the NL in RBI. As a catcher. He finished 14th in the voting.

       I think everyone is familiar with Raines in 1987 – led the league in runs (123), went 50/55 in SB attempts, a .330/.429/.526 slash line (3rd, 3rd, and 9th in the NL, respectively), and all as a guy who missed a month due to collusion. Raines finished 7th.

       Either Carter or Raines could have won the award in 1986 – Raines won the batting title and led the NL in OBP, plus went 70/79 on the basepaths. Carter played for the best team in a long time, had a reputation as a leader, and posted a solid-but-not-spectacular batting line. Raines finished 6th, but Carter 3rd.

       Dawson very nearly won 3 MVPs – the one he won, obviously, plus a 2nd place finish in 1983 (and he could have beat Dale Murphy for the award), and another 2nd in 1981 (when there’s no way he would have topped Mike Schmidt for the honor). And yet, when you look at their top 3 seasons by rWAR, they’re virtually indistinguishable:

       Carter: 7.8/6.7/6.7 (’82/’84/’85)
       Dawson: 7.3/6.8/6.7 (’81/’82/’80) ’87 ranks 9th for Dawson, at 2.7 WAR
       Raines: 7.5/6.8/6.0 (’85/’87/’92)

       Knowing what we know now, if we had no knowledge of how voting actually went, I don’t think Dawson would have been the hands-down pick to win the one MVP for the group. In fact, I think it would be tough to separate the three of them from one another, as if there were one clear choice. I just think that’s fascinating.

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       1. Dr. Doom February 19, 2012 at 12:41 am

          Okay, that last paragraph is unclear – what I meant was:

          Knowing what we know now about statistics, but if we had no knowledge of how MVP voting actually went…

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15. Smithyy February 20, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    When Gary Carter drove in 106 of Montreal’s 593 runs scored in 1984,I wonder how that percentage(17.88%) ranks in comparison to other players who have done it with a better percentage in the last 50 years. Or the last 100 years. I’m sure Babe Ruth had a dominant percentage of driving in his teams runs.

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    1. Richard Chester February 20, 2012 at 7:22 pm

       I made a quick check. In 1930 Hack Wilson drove in 191 of the Cubs’ 998 runs for 19.14%. In 1957 Roy Sievers drove in 114 of the Senators’ 603 runs for 18.91%.

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    2. Doug February 20, 2012 at 8:05 pm

       Here’s a few guys who drove in over 20% of their team’s runs.

       Sammy Sosa, CHC, 2001, 20.8%
       Jim Gentile, BAL, 1961, 20.4%
       Frank Howard, WSA, 1969, 20.1%

       There’s probably others – I don’t have a systematic way to look these up.

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       1. Richard Chester February 20, 2012 at 8:20 pm

          Ernie Banks: 21.25% in 1959.

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          1. Smithyy February 20, 2012 at 8:34 pm

             Thanks for the research guys,I guess Carter’s percentage wasn’t impressive as I first thought. Being an Expo fan from 1978-84,it just seemed Gary did something positive everday in the ’84 lineup that wasn’t very good offensively.

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16. Smithyy February 20, 2012 at 7:31 pm

    I started doing a bit of checking the other night and saw Sievers’ higher rate also for the 1958 season(108 rbi of the Sens 553 runs)19.52% and then I thought maybe Gary’s rate wasn’t as high as I first thought.

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    1. Richard Chester February 20, 2012 at 7:45 pm

       I did some more random searching, there are quite a few players who beat Carter’s mark. The highest I found was Babe Ruth with the 1919 Red Sox, 114 RBIs of the Sox’s 565 runs for 20.18%.

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       1. Dr. Doom February 20, 2012 at 7:48 pm

          You know, I even refreshed the page right before I posted, and you STILL somehow beat me to it. Good ideas on some of the guys you checked.

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          1. e pluribus munu February 20, 2012 at 8:17 pm

             Wally Berger, 1930 Bees: 130 RBI of 575 team runs = 22.6%

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    2. Dr. Doom February 20, 2012 at 7:46 pm

       My gut instinct is to say “I doubt it” on Ruth, simply because, while he drove in a lot of runs, there were a lot of runs scored at that time – plus Gehrig usually had about as many as Ruth. Here are the #s for the Babe, 1920-33:

       1920 – 16.4
       1921 – 18.0
       1922 – 13.1
       1923 – 15.9
       1924 – 15.1
       1925 – 9.3
       1926 – 17.2
       1927 – 16.8
       1928 – 15.9
       1929 – 17.1
       1930 – 14.4
       1931 – 15.3
       1932 – 13.7
       1933 – 11.1

       Yes, huge, dominant numbers. But only once did it top Carter’s highest number (1921), and even then it was just barely.

       Gehrig’s 1927 – 17.9
       Gehrig’s 1934 – 19.6
       Aaron’s 1963 – 19.2
       Greenberg’s 1935 – 18.5
       Greenberg’s 1937 – 19.6
       Greenberg’s 1946 – 18.0
       Foxx’s 1933 – 18.6
       Foxx’s 1938 – 19.4

       That’s what I got just manually searching some of the great “RBI Men” in baseball history. I’d love to know if anyone’s ever broken 20%. Seems unlikely, but certainly possible. I checked a bunch more – Yaz in ’67, Williams 159 RBI season, Reggie in 1969 and 1973, Barry Bonds – but they were all in too high of run environments or they just didn’t knock in enough. Really interesting question. I hope someone can enlighten us further.

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17. Frank Clingenpeel, Junior February 20, 2012 at 8:15 pm

    I am using this blog to present some other news — at least, for the folks here. Forgive me if this is inappropriate for this, but if you remember Frank Clingenpeel, Senior, I am his son. Dad also died last week from heart failure at the age of 84.

    Again, forgive me if this is inappropriate, but I thought you would like to know.

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    1. John Autin February 20, 2012 at 8:40 pm

       Frank, Jr. — We sure do remember your dad, very fondly, and it makes me very sad to hear of his passing. Please accept my condolences for your whole family, and thanks for taking the time to let us know.

       I will sorely miss his recollections of the Cincinnati Reds and baseball in general over the last 75 years. We’ve lost a treasured member of our community.

       If you would care to share any obituary or memorial text that you may have, I would like to post it here. You can e-mail me at jautin@cravath.com.

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       1. Richard Chester February 20, 2012 at 8:45 pm

          Of course we remember him, he was one of the best and most prolific of bloggers. His wit and wisdom will truly be missed. Please accept my deepest condolences.

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    2. e pluribus munu February 20, 2012 at 9:20 pm

       Your father had lots of friends on this site, Frank, Jr., and on its forerunner. I began to spend time here by reading the exchanges between your father and much younger contributors: he had a lot to offer in both knowledge and personality, and I very much enjoyed seeing the genuine respect he was shown. I’ve missed him these past months. I hope you’ll follow up on John Autin’s request – I often thought I’d like to know more about your father. Please let me add my condolences.

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18. Pingback: High Heat Stats » Rest in peace, Frank