Paul Konerko / US PRESSWIRE
The White Sox are an original American League team dating back to 1901. The had a good amount of success early on, winning the World Series in both 1906 and 1917. Then came the infamous 1919 World Series, which they lost ostensibly because several players were paid to tank. The team then entered a long dry spell, without a 1st-place finish from 1920 to 1958. In 1959, they lost another World Series (presumably played on fair terms). The team experienced another long drought until a first-place finish in 1983, when they lost the ALCS to the eventually-champ Baltimore Orioles. From 1990 to 2006, the team never finished lower than 3rd, including a World Series win in 2005. Since then, they’ve been about a .500 team.
Let’s take a look at the best personnel this team has had.
| Rk | Player | WAR/pos | From | To |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Luke Appling | 69.9 | 1930 | 1950 |
| 2 | Frank Thomas | 65.0 | 1990 | 2005 |
| 3 | Eddie Collins | 63.4 | 1915 | 1926 |
| 4 | Nellie Fox | 44.5 | 1950 | 1963 |
| 5 | Minnie Minoso | 39.3 | 1951 | 1980 |
| 6 | Robin Ventura | 36.9 | 1989 | 1998 |
| 7 | Luis Aparicio | 32.6 | 1956 | 1970 |
| 8 | George Davis | 31.3 | 1902 | 1909 |
| 9 | Fielder Jones | 30.0 | 1901 | 1908 |
| 10 | Paul Konerko | 27.7 | 1999 | 2012 |
| 11 | Shoeless Joe Jackson | 26.5 | 1915 | 1920 |
| 12 | Carlton Fisk | 26.5 | 1981 | 1993 |
| 13 | Ray Schalk | 25.0 | 1912 | 1928 |
| 14 | Sherm Lollar | 24.3 | 1952 | 1963 |
| 15 | Willie Kamm | 23.6 | 1923 | 1931 |
Lots of great players here. Seven of them are already in the Hall of Fame (Appling, Collins, Fox, Aparicio, Davis, Fisk, and Schalk) with Frank Thomas as a shoo-in one day soon, and another player in Jackson who is Hall-worthy based on numbers but is banned.
Let’s look at pitchers:
| Rk | Player | WAR | From | To |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Red Faber | 61.9 | 1914 | 1933 |
| 2 | Ted Lyons | 60.7 | 1923 | 1946 |
| 3 | Ed Walsh | 59.6 | 1904 | 1916 |
| 4 | Wilbur Wood | 49.1 | 1967 | 1978 |
| 5 | Eddie Cicotte | 47.2 | 1912 | 1920 |
| 6 | Billy Pierce | 46.5 | 1949 | 1961 |
| 7 | Mark Buehrle | 45.7 | 2000 | 2011 |
| 8 | Doc White | 31.6 | 1903 | 1913 |
| 9 | Thornton Lee | 27.1 | 1937 | 1947 |
| 10 | Jim Scott | 26.1 | 1909 | 1917 |
| 11 | Joe Horlen | 22.8 | 1961 | 1971 |
| 12 | Tommy John | 22.0 | 1965 | 1971 |
| 13 | Jack McDowell | 20.1 | 1987 | 1994 |
| 14 | Tommy Thomas | 20.0 | 1926 | 1932 |
| 15 | Reb Russell | 19.9 | 1913 | 1919 |
This is a much weaker group. For starters, there are only two pitchers on here who pitched as recently as 1980s. Only Faber, Lyons, and Walsh are in the Hall of Fame, and only Mark Buehrle has any chance from the rest of the guys.
Here’s the poll. Please pick 4:
I went with Luke Appling, Frank Thomas (the two easiest picks IMO) and then it was tough. I went with Ted Lyons and Shoeless Joe. Lyons because he is one of the franchise’s best pitchers, he pitched 21 years with the Sox and I wanted to have a pitcher represented. And Shoeless Joe will always be synonymous with the White (Black) Sox to me, so I think he’s perfect for a Mount Rushmore of the team.
Impossibly difficult. I had to pick Collins because I had punted on him with the Athletics. In addition I did Appling, Lyons and Thomas but now that I think about it there’s just no way to justify leaving off Nellie Fox plus you have Ed Walsh and Shoeless Joe from the early days and so many more as you go forward. Other than Appling I could easily pick an entirely different 4-some and feel completely justified in doing so. They even played in a park named after Comiskey for nearly 80 years.
Plus I always associate Bill Veech with the White Sox because I don’t remember his time with any other team.
Luke Appling, Eddie Collins, Bill Veeck and (mgr.) Al Lopez.
I see this as a problem of geographical displacement. I feel Collins belongs on the Athletics’ Rushmore, but I made a quick trip to that monument and his head’s not there. A range of Rushmores without Collins’ heroic features would be a blot on the landscape, so I think we should carry his granite over here (awkward because the ears are so heavy and the chin so light).
If Collins were not involved, I think this would be an easy pick: Appling can’t be bypassed, then Lyons, Thomas, and Fox, would follow (Walsh complicates this, but he had only a handful of super seasons, whereas Lyons was the anchor of the staff for a generation). Now one of them must go. On the basis of WAR, it should be Fox, but I was a kid when the Go-Go Sox went to the Series, and Fox is actually the face of the ChiSox to me (carved on the right, so his bulging left cheek doesn’t block out a teammate).
On the basis of chronological representation, Lyons should be eliminated, but the Sox were a pitching team for most of their Hitless History. I have always really liked Lyons – at the age of 41, he pitched in 20 games, completed every one, and won the ERA title (I don’t have much of an impression of Faber, and I wonder whether anyone would recognize his face).
So I’m voting for Fox and Lyons, along with Appling and Collins, and I’m bypassing the best hitter the Sox have ever had – by far – because I don’t see the DH as a full contributor. Great as Thomas was as a hitter (and a good person as well, so far as I could tell), a hitter is absolutely all he was – when he played in the field, he was a latter day Dr. Strangeglove, hoping that his manager would spare him from combat danger. Thomas would have been worth his fielding just to have his hitting, but the bottom line is that in most of his games, he was on the field for about fifteen minutes (even though one of them he often spent jogging in a circle).
Too bad George Davis didn’t have his best years in Chicago – it would have been great to have him on a Rushmore so we could have a representative of the Hitless Wonders on the mountain – a good argument for Walsh. I’m sure he won’t make it up the hill for the Giants.
I won’t pick any of the Black Sox guys. Sorry to Jackson and Cicotte on that one, but infamy doesn’t get you on my Rushmore. For similar reasons, Charles Comiskey won’t get my vote either (yes, I am being judgemental today)
Senor Guillen would be a pretty decent write in, as would Al Lopez. The current manager has a lot more WAR as player than I realized too.
For what it is worth, the ChiSox themselves have retired the numbers of: Nellie Fox, Harold Baines, Minnie Minoso, Luis Aparicio, Ted Lyons, Billy Pierce, Frank Thomas and Carlton Fisk. Also, they have monuments of most of those guys too (not Lyons for some reason) in the park. And they have one of Old Man Comiskey.
My wife is a Chicago girl and ChiSox fan. The names that resonate the most with her as a casual fan are Carlton Fisk, Frank Thomas and Ozzie Guillen.
When you haven’t won a World Series in a few generations, I think you tend to think a lot of the guys who win one. I suspect for most Sox fans Mark Buehrle and Paul Konerko should be considered.
Taking that all into account, I don’t see how you leave Appling off (despite the general mediorcrity of the ChiSox during his days). I ended up voting for him, Frank Thomas, Nellie Fox (to represent the Go Go Sox) and Red Faber (I voted for Collins with the A’s and think Red is a fine representative of the Clean Sox from 1917 and 1919)
I love Harold Baines but when I went to his B-R page to see why he wasn’t listed among the WAR leaders I was dumbstruck by how many years he played for other teams other than the Sox and how often he had gone back and forth between teams either in a trade or as a free agent. I’m sure that I was aware of all of it at the time but I had never looked at it on paper. I never would have guess that over 40% of his games were for teams other than the Sox.
Steve “Psycho” Lyons deserves some consideration too, just for dropping trou in he middle of a nationally televised game.
That always seemed like a contrived move to me as if he was trying to make a name for himself as a character.
Breaking down into eras,
First the Second-City Series 1906 team, playing in the 3rd World Series and foreshadowing the 3rd Superbowl pulling the upset over the 116 win Cubs. Also the last World Series in which both teams have never played in the World Series before (a Mariners-Nationals matchup is not looking likely anytime soon). This Rushmore would have mgr/center-Fielder Jones, SS George Davis, P Ed Walsh and P Doc White.
The Black Sox are next, really a loaded team. Winning the Series in 1917 and we all know about 1919. This team would have Collins, Shoeless Joe, Cicotte and Faber (leaving of HOF backstop Ray Schalk and Happy Felsch (from Milwaukee))
Next comes the Black Eye era (?) 1921-1950, 30 years with only 6 in the first division but none higher than 3rd place. This era happens to include franchise WAR leader Luscious Luke Appling and franchise #2 pitching WAR leader Ted Lyons. Thornton Lee and Willie Kamm would round it out for the sake of picking 4 guys
The Go-Go Sox turned around the decades long bleak period, from 1951-1965 finishing 5th once, 4th once and better every other season highlighted by the 1959 World Series, along the the 54 Indians the only team not from the Bronx to win the pennant from 1949-1964. This one is pretty easy, Fox, Aparicio, Pierce and Minoso (although not on the team in 59). One of those 4 led the team in WAR each from 1950-60.
Next the move to the AL West, Go-Go to Frank Thomas. Another down time highlighted by the surprise 1983 playoff team. Ill pick Hoyt Wilhelm (HOFer on a few teams so Ill put him here), Wilbur Wood and his 1000 knuckle ball innings per season, Harold Baines and Carlton Fisk
Modern era, Thomas led the team to some playoff seasons in the early 90s and of course the 2005 88 season drought ending WS title. Ill pick Thomas, Ventura, Buerhle and Konerko.
Overall Ill go Thomas, Fox, Appling and Lyons.
I went with the big hurt, old aches and pains, Eddie Collins
and Nellie Fox.
If you look at the big hurt through his age 29 season, it’s
just silly. His OPS+ was between 174 and 181 every year.
Except 94 when it was a Ruthian 212.
The other three were obvious choices.
I thought about Ted Lyons and Red Faber, but since Faber
is number 2 on Lyons’ similarity score and Lyons is number
4 on Red’s BR page for similarity score, I lost all ability
to distinguish and left them both off at numbers 5-6.
Well, one way to differentiate them is that Faber won 3 games in the 1917 WS (which, of course, was the last WS the City of Chicago would win for 88 years), whereas the teams Lyons pitched for were generally pretty bad. To me, that breaks the tie (in Faber’s favor)
I don’t see why you would penalize Lyons for playing on bad teams.
Not really penalizing, just breaking tie with Faber’s stellar performance in the 1917 WS, since that is 1 of only 3 titles the ChiSox own in their history.
I hear ya. I just think that sometimes the post season is give too much weight when looking at a player’s entire career, given that fact that post season games make up such a small percentage of their overall career. Personally I would go with Wilbur Wood instead since the first glove I ever owned was signed by Wood and by the time my mom threw it out it was so broken in and floppy that you couldn’t even catch with it anymore.
Both guys get some extra credit from me for serving their country in wartime. Faber only missed two thirds of a season but it was during his prime and he was quite right for a year when he returned. Lyons was in his 40s when he joined the service but in his last season before that he completed all 20 of his starts and led the league in ERA and ERA+. He returned after three years away and completed his last five starts with an ERA of 2.32.
Here are the eras for the Whitesox:
Early 1900’s – decent team that won a WS in 1906 – Ed Walsh, Doc White, Fielder Jones, George Davis
Black Sox – the whole lineup was pretty good – or maybe just famous – Joe Jackson, Eddie Cicotte, Eddie Collins, Red Faber, Lefty Williams, Ray Schalk, Charlie Sheen, John Cusack (oops, Happy Felsch and Buck Weaver).
The Luke Appling/Ted Lyons Years – Luke Appling, Ted Lyons
Go-Go Sox of the 1950’s and 1960’s – could only break thru in 1959 with WS appearance – Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio, Sherm Lollar, Minnie Minoso, Early Wynn, Billy Pierce
1970’s – “The Uniform Years” – Wilbur Wood, Jim Kaat, Rich Gossage, Jorge Orta, Ralph Garr, Chet Lemon, Bucky Dent, Richie Zisk, Oscar Gamble, Chris Knapp, Francisco Barrios
Then come the single season bursts:
1983 – Carlton Fisk, Ron Kittle, Harold Baines, Greg Luzinski, Lamar Hoyt, Rich Dotson
1993 – Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura, Jack McDowell, Ozzie Guillen, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez, Roberto Hernandez, Lance Johnson, Jason Bere
2005 – Paul Konerko, A.J. Pierzynski, Mark Beurle, Juan Uribe, Joe Crede, Scott Podsednik, Aaron Rowan, Jermaine Dye, Jon Garland
Long history, but not a lot of guys you would say are locks for the Mountain. Most of their guys are 2-team guys (Fisk, Jackson, Minoso, McDowell, Ventura, Baines, Aparicio, Collins, Davis) , career-cut-short-via-lifetime-ban guys (Jackson, Cicotte, Williams, Weaver, Felsch), no-postseason guys (Appling, Minoso, Lyons, Wood), inexplicably-low-WAR guys (Konerko, Schalk, Guillen) or just-plain-blah guys (Lollar, Pierce, Faber)
That leave me with – Frank Thomas, Nellie Fox, Ed Walsh, Charles Comiskey (2 Stadiums named after you has to account for something.)
Comiskey was a dick! Gotta disagree with you on that one. At least go with Luke Appling instead.
Frank Thomas is, in my opinion, the best White Sox player ever, so he is in. Luke Appling hit the most famous homerun ever for a senior citizen, he is deffinetly in. After those guys is a little tricky. I’ll go with Eddie Collins because I put him in my Inner Circle HOF ballot. The last spot is for Minoso… I don’t know exactly why. Maybe is because Orestes Saturnino Minoso is too good of a name to be left out. Perhaps Konerko is worthy of a spot on the Mount Rushmore too.
This one is impossible for me – just too many favorites and too many great memories. Others have broken down the eras well and mentioned most of the players that need mentioning. I mean, I could have a Rushmore of just the ’77 Rent-A-Team. Or one with four Dick Allens, for being a bad mother(shutchermouth). Or an anti-Rushmore of hated Sox (led by Charles Comiskey and including Ken Harrelson and Steve Stone and, irrationally, Bucky Dent) that I would dynamite into smithereens the moment it was finished.
I’ll have to go with a personal Rushmore based on the connections I or my family had with various Pale Hose players. My grandfather was very good friends with Nellie Fox, so he’s up there and certainly deserves to be. I went to various schools and played on various teams with and against Ron Kittle, so he’s up there. (OK, he doesn’t deserve to be based solely on his baseball accomplishments, but he’s a genuinely funny guy and his story is a damn good one – he escaped the Gary mills and made good.) My cousin was a White Sox VP in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s and through him I not only got to watch a lot of Sox games in prime, kick-your-feet-up-on-the-brick-wall box seats but got to know Frank Thomas – an awesome guy who’s definitely up there and deserves to be. And though I don’t like voting for owners, I make a happy exception for Bill Veeck, who was one of the greatest interviews I ever had and is responsible for three of my five favorite baseball experiences: the bring-an-instrument-with-you-to-play-the-national-anthem promotion in which I saw folks lugging tubas and double basses and baritone saxes and backing up pickups with pianos in them; Disco Demolition Night (okay, so it was his son who organized it, and, fine, scoff all you want you purists, it was a helluva lotta fun); and a 1977 game against the Royals when, in an inspired opium haze I won the betting pool with my fellow mill workers by guessing the attendance of a 50,000-plus crowd EXACTLY.
My fifth spot would go to Ken Berry, the best defensive centerfielder I ever saw, Willie Mays and Paul Blair and the rest of them included.
I love the idea of the Mount Anti-Rushmore (Mt Rush-Less?). I was just reading the comments on the Mount Rusmore for my Jays and I wonder if Joe Carter would be on Rushless? (He’s on my Rushmore)
You tell good stories, Uncle tag.
Yeah, just like a classic toothless old fart, except I’m not that old and still have a dependable set of teeth. My daughters run anytime I threaten to give them what I call “context” and they call “Sominex.” So I inflict it on you guys instead.
Excellent. We could use a few more Bill Veecks and Charlie Finleys if you ask me.
Definitely, but we’ll probably keep getting hedgies and corporations.
Dick Allen basically saved the organization from total economic failure in the early 1970’s. The team had even played regular season games in Milwaukee prior to the SDeattle Pilots move there….
At his HoF induction, Goose Gossage referred to Allen as the ” greatest teammate I ever had “.
Very good point, Paul. A lot of inconvenient facts get conveniently ignored later.
And he even looked good in those ridiculous uniforms they had at the time.
tag:
I certainly hope you’re not making reference to “Allen’s 44″ chest and 28″ waist”? Please, let’s limit the man-crush talk to feats on the ballfield 🙂 Allen, though, does get extra points for his general avoidance and distrust of the press and media in general
Well, actually in my case it would have been a boy-crush. 🙂 I was in fact referring more to his high stirrups, which we all thought were waaay cool at the time and tried to recreate in our Little League unis. We had no chance of recreating the V-physique nor the awesome sideburns.
Allen’s successor as cult role model and anti-hero, George Hendrick, shortly thereafter brought back the Ted Williams/Gene Stephens long pants look and evebntually took ’em over the ankles.
I went with Frank Thomas, Luke Appling, Eddie Collins and Ed Walsh.
I know there’s a bit of a prejudice against Deadball era pitchers, but seriously, take a closer look at Walsh vs. Lyons and Faber. There really is no comparison. Walsh earned virtually the same WAR in about 1000 fewer innings, and his 146 ERA+ blows them both away. Plus, he pitched on a World Series winner (15 IP, 2-0, 0.60 ERA). He’s also the all-time major league leader in ERA+ for that matter.
I’m also curious as to what the fascination with Nellie Fox is? I’m not meaning to criticize here, I’m really just curious. He’s kind of a borderline Hall of Famer, so I’m kind of surprised we’re talking White Sox Mount Rushmore for him.
I too am surprised at the support for Fox. He was a really good player but I think his teammate Minnie Minoso was a superior player. Minoso had a higher BA, OBP, R and RBI. And he had a far superior OPS+, 130 to Fox’s 93.
Fox was involved in one of the most lop-sided trades ever when the A’s sent him to the Sox for C Joe Tipton.
Dan, no Walsh is not first all-time in ERA+(I think you were thinking standard ERA perhaps?). Walsh ranks ninth all-time in ERA+, and that doesn’t include Billy Wagner at 187 because he only pitched 900 instead of 1000 innings.
You’re right. I misremembered, knowing that Walsh is #1 all-time in ERA, but that his ERA+ still holds up among the best ever despite pitching in the deadball era.
Yeah, that’s why he got my vote too. Big Hurt, Appling, and Eddie Collins also.
Bill Melton, Geoff Blum, Roberto Hernandez and Shingo Takatsu.
Or a not-so-Mount Rushmore of minor league Sox from my youth-
Marv Staehle
Cisco Carlos
Fred Klages
Dick Kenworthy
Sorry-had to do it…
Oh, I remember those first few starts by Cisco Carlos. My uncles thought he was going to be the next Bob Gibson. The following year disabused them of those notions and he sank into the Southside sunset like so many before him.
How about a Nearer-to-Rushmore from about the same era: Don Buford, Floyd Robinson, Pete Ward, and Gary Peters.
You had to love Peters, the Carlos Zambrano of his day (well, at least on the mound and in the batter’s box if not in temperament). And Pete Ward was a fine player who had the misfortune of playing in Santo’s shadow.
Peters could hit, too. Better than many of his teammates.
I missed your batter’s box comment. Sorry. Ward had a couple of really good seasons, then, I think he hurt his neck in a car wreck prior to the 1965 season, and his career never really took off after that.
My reasons for calling this one impossible are more academic and less personal than tag’s:1) I like to spread the four choices over eras. Appling is an easy choice, but 2) I angst over Thomas because he sank from being a first baseman to resenting having to don a glove at all, or at least that was my impression at the time. I’m not overfond of placing DHs above position players, but Thomas was fantastic with the bat. So . . .? 3) Pierce, Fox, Minoso—how do you choose just one for that era? 4) There are too many eras. Do I go with Ed Walsh from the early Sox? Faber from the Black Sox (Eddie Collins is on my A’s team so he’s already been carved in stone)? Fisk, Buehrle, Wood, each from distinct eras?
Further, I foresee this kind of difficulty recurring with many of the teams not yet brought up for a vote.
OK—Appling, Thomas, Faber, Minoso, Minnie over Billy and Nellie because he was the all around best player of the three.
Just a word on impressions of The Big Hurt’s fielding. He had the misfortune of being compared to Mark Grace across town. I clearly remember when inter-league play started in 1997 the debate of which team had the better first baseman. Talk shows were swamped with people who wanted Grace over Thomas (go check their 1997’s) just because of Grace’s fielding, because we all know that a slick fielding first baseman will lead you to victory just like ??and??. I believe this talk made Frank paranoid about his fielding and caused him to want to be a DH more than a fielder. Also shortly after this time he did hurt his throwing arm and it did impact his ability from then on.
Had to go with Thomas, Minnie, Luke and because in 10 years we will wonder why we didn’t vote for him Paulie.
Frank was my favorite player when I was a kid, after I got over my Bo boy-crush.
Still annoyed at the way the Sox treated him. I get that he was often injured, but this is a guy who had ‘diminished skills’ clauses invoked in his contracts because his fellow sluggers were… well, we know what they were doing.
I just think that of all the original franchises the White Sox have probably the weakest hitting, and certainly not one truly epic slugger other than Frank, though Konerko is certainly doing something interesting with what should be the twilight of his career.
I’d just think you’d have a little more respect for someone like Frank whom, at the top of his game, in the batter’s box, was very nearly Williamsian.
Thomas, Appling, Collins, Fox.
This is the franchise that would field a definite second-division team if you put together a league with each franchise’s best possible roster.
It’s interesting if you compare the top postwar Sox players vs. their even less successful Northside neighbors (I’ll skip the earlier guys to keep it simple). At all but one or two positions, the Cubs are clearly superior and start a deserving Hall of Famer everywhere on the diamond but CF, RF (Sammy has the numbers to enter but it may be a loooong time before they let him in), 1B (counting Banks as a SS) and catcher, and sporting a pitching staff featuring the likes of Fergie, Maddux and Big Daddy, with Sutter and Lee Smith coming out of the bullpen. Though the Sox have a decided edge in the real crosstown rivalry, in this imagined one the Cubs would seem to be the prohibitive favorite.
And you’re definitely right about Frank being treated shabbily. Kenny Williams (and maybe Reinsdorf, I can’t remember) were pretty disgraceful in that regard.
For the first time in these things, I just voted for 4 guys I like for some reason or other: Minnie Minoso, Wilbur Wood, Ted Lyons and Carlton Fisk.
I still get a thrill thinking of Fisk batting 2nd in 1983, and how their season took off when he was moved to that spot in late May.
Bill Veeck deserved my vote, but I think he would have rather left these honors to the guys in uniform. Veeck goes on my Mt. Rushmore of Baseball Like It Oughta Be.
Ed Walsh,
Lucius Appling,
Saturnino Orestes Armas (Arrieta) Minoso,
and Ozzie Guillen
1910
Walsh led the league in era and losses
That’s 20 losses with a 1.27 era, folks.
Yes, but Ed Walsh in 1910 also allowed 35 UN-earned runs, so that his “run average” is a little above 2.00. This is mighty impressive still, since the 1910 AL R/G was 3.64, but doesn’t sound as awesome as a 1.27 ERA.
Plus, you have to consider that Comiskey Park was an extreme pitchers park, in the middle of the deadball era. Walsh was still great in 1910, but he wasn’t Superman.
This is the great-nephew of Eddie Gaedel:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=gaedel001kyl
Looks more like the great nephew of two or three Eddie Gaedels, Voomo. But despite the Veeck connection, Gaedel/es would be a topic for the Browns Rushmore, since the vast majority of Eddie’s PAs were in a Browns uni.
Not much with the stick yet … but at least he’ll take a walk!
Appling, Thomas, Collins and Faber. I’m picking Faber because he consistently gets ignored, which really should preclude him from his team’s Rushmore, but what the heck.
Thomas, Appling, Collins and Jackson for me. All those guys embody the White Sox as a team. On a little side note, I am surprised that Harold Baines wasn’t on that list. I wouldn’t have voted for him on their Mt. Rushmore, but I feel he should have gotten some kind of mention in the poll.
A question that’s been on my mind recently is “who started the ‘Latin American revolution’ in MLB?”. I’m guessing Aparicio must have been one of the first, along with the Alou brothers maybe?, but I’ve never seen anything at all on that topic, which I think is a big one. I’m not sure that this effect has been accounted for when comparisons are made between players who play now and players who played before this influx, which in the last two decades has improved the game greatly IMO, as many of the game’s best players are Latin American.
btw, I voted for Aparicio, Thomas, Fisk and Appling.
I think Chico Carrasquel, who was the Chisox shortstop prior to Aparicio, may have been the first Latino in the post-WW2-era to have success in the Major Leagues.
Paving the way for Carrasquel was his uncle Alex who had moderate success with the Senators during WWII.
I’m not sure there was any single path for Latin American players, but I think the recruiting pattern of the Washington Senators was a factor. In the mid-1950s, they brought up a string of players from Latin American countries: Jose Valdivielso, Reno Bertoia, Zoilo Versalles, Julio Becquer, Pedro Ramos, Camilio Pascual all come to mind (I’m actually thinking back to the 1959 Topps cards – I recall noticing this when I was a kid). Although there were Latin players from the early part of the century, and I recall stories about John McGraw recruiting in Cuba (I seem to recall that the Giants trained there), I think the Senators’ wide and aggressive recruitment was a turning point. I assume the strategy was a product of the Senators being a shoestring operation that had never developed a strong farm system. (The strategy paid off, but not till the Senators were in Minneapolis).
Reno Bertoia was born in Italy which is a long way from Latin America. He came into the ML via the Tigers.
You could also add Carlos Paula to your list.
I stand corrected, Richard.
And the Senators almost signed a left-handed pitcher from Havana named Fidel Castro. He turned out to be far-left-handed.
I made a quick scan of the rosters of the teams for 1953, and found only one notable Latin player in the National League—Ruben Gomez in his rookie year with the Giants. In the American League, the White Sox had five Latin Players, Minoso and Carresquel as starters, plus three pitchers, Mike Fornieles, Sandy Consuegra, and Luis Aloma, although Aloma didn’t get many opportunities. The Yankees had Willie Miranda as a back-up infielder, Cleveland had Bobby Avila, an All Star in 1952, at second base, and Washington had Connie Marrero as a fifth starter. Most of these guys were Cuban.
By 1956, when Aparicio debuted, I don’t think anyone considered him a pioneer. by then Avila had won a batting championship, Minoso and Carresquel were household names, Vic Power and Hector Lopez were putting up respectable numbers for KC, Miranda was starting for Baltimore, Gomez had won 17 and Consuegra 16 in 1954 for their respective teams, and Washington had Valdivielso at short and Ramos and Pasqual on the pitching staff. In1955 of course, Sandty Amoros, the Dodger left fielder, made one of the more famous catches in WS history.
Luis Aloma was obtained be the Sox mainly to act as an interpreter for Chico Carrasquel. I guess the other Latin players did not speak English well enough.
I picked Thomas, Appling, Fox, and Walsh. Shoeless Joe’s three best years were all for Cleveland, and Aparicio and Collins also had greater success elsewhere. It is interesting that as old a franchise as the Sox are there aren’t more knock out obvious choices for top 4.
I have a question about the poll counting system. It seems that the percentage does not properly reflect how popular a candidate is. For example, the Big Hurt has 22% of the votes, which seems low. Because each person has 4 votes, each person is being counted 4 extra times. This means the percentages are cut to a quarter. What I mean is that although Frank Thomas received 22% of the vote, he is included in 88-89% of the different monuments.It seems all percentages need to be multiplied by four. Is there anyway to correct for this, as it would more properly acknowledge the popularity of a player?
Is that you Rahm Emanual?
I’m not sure I understand. You want to times Frank Thomas’ 22% vote by four to get him up to 88% because you believe he’s more popular? I know this vote involves Chicago, but we just can’t import Chicago political tactis here to HHS! : -)
Seriously, I’m not sure what you’re asking.
No, I mean that his percentage is of all votes. But each person has 4 votes for their Mount Rushmore and can’t pick him four times. What I mean is that he is on 88% of the Mount Rushmores, but only 22% of the votes. I mean to display that he is on 88% of the Mount Rushmores as opposed to displaying he has 22% of the votes. Because each voter has 4 votes, and each player can be picked only once per voter, the max popular percentage available is 25% for a player. What I am asking about is the frequency that each player appears on a Mount Rushmore.
In theory, if several people vote for less than four players on a particular Mt. Rushmore, and the most popular player gets (just about) all of our votes, the most popular player _could_ have more than 25% of the total vote.
It’s unlikely to happen, though – has anyone tabulated the player %’s for each particular Mt. Rushmore yet?
Like Mike D, I’m not sure what problem you are pointing out, though. That’s the nature of the system.
Thank you Lawrence. I just was initially confused why the great Players were getting such small vote percentages. After thinking, I was just checking that the percentages were that low for the reasons I mentioned. I understand it was just how it was handled in the system, but I thought it might reflect true popularity if percentages were multiplied by four. I wasn’t trying to make a big stink, just more of a small inquiry.