Photo credit: US PRESSWIRE
The New York Yankees close out the American League entries in our Mount Rushmore series, and this one is a doozy.
This franchise started as the Baltimore Orioles in 1901 and after a couple of unremarkable years they relocated to New York and renamed themselves the Highlanders. In 10 years under that name, they had some decent years, with a few 2nd-place finishes. In 1913 they rebranded themselves as the Yankees. Come 1921, they won their league 3 times in a row, and after losing the World Series in 1921 and 1922, they won their first world championship in 1923.
The Yankees won their next championship in 1927, with what is largely regarded as the great baseball team ever fielded. They won again in 1928, and 1932. Then, in 1936, they started a run of 4 championships in a row. More wins in 1941, 1943, and 1947 preceded a 5-year championship run starting in 1949.
Between 1955 and 1964, they made 9 more World Series, winning 4 times. The team then had a long dry spell, with no post-season appearances for 11 years, what felt like an eternity then. Between 1976 and 1981 they made 4 more World Series, winning twice. Then there was a 13-year dry spell, with no playoff appearances. Finally in 1995 they made it back and won 5 championships between 1996 and 2009.
Whew.
Love ’em or hate ’em, there’s no denying that this franchise has had a ton of fantastic players. Choosing the 4 isn’t going to be easy…let’s give it a try.
Here are the top 15 Yankees batters, by career WAR:
| Rk | Player | WAR/pos | From | To |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Babe Ruth | 138.2 | 1920 | 1934 |
| 2 | Lou Gehrig | 108.5 | 1923 | 1939 |
| 3 | Mickey Mantle | 105.5 | 1951 | 1968 |
| 4 | Joe DiMaggio | 75.1 | 1936 | 1951 |
| 5 | Derek Jeter | 70.1 | 1995 | 2012 |
| 6 | Yogi Berra | 56.2 | 1946 | 1963 |
| 7 | Bill Dickey | 52.4 | 1928 | 1946 |
| 8 | Willie Randolph | 51.7 | 1976 | 1988 |
| 9 | Alex Rodriguez | 50.5 | 2004 | 2012 |
| 10 | Bernie Williams | 45.9 | 1991 | 2006 |
| 11 | Tony Lazzeri | 44.7 | 1926 | 1937 |
| 12 | Thurman Munson | 43.3 | 1969 | 1979 |
| 13 | Roy White | 43.0 | 1965 | 1979 |
| 14 | Graig Nettles | 41.0 | 1973 | 1983 |
| 15 | Earle Combs | 40.0 | 1924 | 1935 |
OK, so, here ar some of the players who didn’t make the top 15: Don Mattingly, Jorge Posada, Gil McDougald, Phil Rizzuto, Rickey Henderson…for many other teams, these guys would have a legit shot at making their Mount Rushmore. For the Yankees, they don’t necessarily even make the ballot.
Here are the pitchers, top 15 by WAR:
| Rk | Player | WAR | From | To |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Mariano Rivera | 52.7 | 1995 | 2012 |
| 2 | Whitey Ford | 50.6 | 1950 | 1967 |
| 3 | Ron Guidry | 45.4 | 1975 | 1988 |
| 4 | Andy Pettitte | 45.0 | 1995 | 2012 |
| 5 | Red Ruffing | 41.7 | 1930 | 1946 |
| 6 | Lefty Gomez | 39.5 | 1930 | 1942 |
| 7 | Bob Shawkey | 39.0 | 1915 | 1927 |
| 8 | Mel Stottlemyre | 37.5 | 1964 | 1974 |
| 9 | Mike Mussina | 33.1 | 2001 | 2008 |
| 10 | Waite Hoyt | 32.0 | 1921 | 1930 |
| 11 | Herb Pennock | 29.9 | 1923 | 1933 |
| 12 | Ray Caldwell | 27.1 | 1910 | 1918 |
| 13 | Jack Chesbro | 26.6 | 1903 | 1909 |
| 14 | Russ Ford | 24.3 | 1909 | 1913 |
| 15 | Dave Righetti | 21.8 | 1979 | 1990 |
Wanna know who didn’t make this list? Spud Chandler, Rich Gossage, Tommy John, Allie Reynolds, Roger Clemens…another wow.
OK, here’s the poll. I tried to limit it to 10 hitters & 10 pitchers but found that it wasn’t possible, so it’s an awfully long list. And away we go.
Please choose 4.
I might take a stab at breaking out a few era-based Mt. Rushmores, and I’m interested to see if others do so as well, although even that’s going to be tough. But, honestly, it seems like it’s gotta Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and DiMaggio for me. No pitchers, but honestly none of them seem as deserving as those four guys to me.
Ditto. Seems crazy to leave out Jeter and Rivera, but no way you could leave off any of the top 4 on your WAR list.
For eras, I’ll go with:
20s-40s – Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Dickey
50s-70s – Mantle, Ford, Berra, Guidry
80s-now – Jeter, Rivera, Mussina, Pettitte
I was trying to figure out how I want to break out the eras, but this simple approach seems as good as any: three decades each, skipping the first two decades, which seems fair.
20s-40s: I can’t imagine picking anyone but the four you did.
50s-70s: I love Guidry, but I’d probably replace him with Munson. The other three are obvious.
80s-now: I’d probably take Bernie Williams over Mussina. I see WAR favors A-Rod, but I’m not ready to put him there.
I agree with dropping Mussina. I always remembered him as primarily a Yankee, but actually he played more as an Oriole. But, rather than Bernie, I’d move Guidry from the second era to the third since he straddles the boundary and actually played longer in the 80s. That leaves room for Munson in the second group (and I did agonize over leaving him out).
So, my revised list:
20s-40s – Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Dickey
50s-70s – Mantle, Ford, Berra, Munson
80s-now – Jeter, Rivera, Guidry, Pettitte
I like it.
I usually equate Guidry with the ’70s because of his monster 1978 season, but you’re right. He does just as easily fit in the ’80s, and I would prefer to honor him over Bernie.
As long as we’re at it why not 1903-1919:
Peckinpaugh, Pipp, Baker and Chesbro
Agree 100%
20s-40s – Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Dickey
50s-70s – Mantle, Ford, Berra, Munson
80s-now – Jeter, Rivera, Guidry, Pettitte
Well, impossible. But, I went Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and Rivera (over Ford, because the Mick already was representing the drinking crowd of the 50s and 60s Yankees).
Now, if you broke it down by position:
Infield Rushmore: Gehrig, Jeter, ARod and Dickey;
Outfield Rushmore: Ruth, Mantle, Dimaggio, and Berra (OK, sure I am cheating, but he did play LF for the Bombers after Elston Howard showed up and there isn’t much difference between Dickey and Berra and I wanted them both)
Pitcher Rushmore: Mariano, Ford, Pettitte and Guidry.
Overrated Yankee Rushmore: Dimaggio, Reggie, Jeter, Lazzeri
Underrated Yankee Rushmore: Randolph, Bernie, Roy White, McDougald
Oh boy.
I’ll leave Jeter alone, but I wonder what’s your basis for claiming DiMaggio’s over-rated? 75 career WAR in just 7500 plate appearances; missed three years to WWII, his age 28-30 seasons. It seems everybody loves to talk about Ted Williams’ service history, but not DiMaggio’s. He also was a right-handed hitter in Yankee stadium when the left-center field fence was somewhere around 460′ from home plate.
You want to talk over-rated Yankees, I’ll give you Lazzeri and add Herb Pennock, Earle Combs, and Waite Hoyt.
I knew that would cause a reaction.
Here’s how he is overrated? Who is the greatest Yankee CF? If you even think about someone other than Mantle, then that person is overrated.
Overrated can mean a lot of different things. Tony Lazzeri is overrated because he is in the HOF and shouldn’t be. Derek Jeter is overrated becausea as great as he is, too many fans put a St. in front of his name. Reggis is overrated because hitting 3 HRs in a WS game doesn’t make you the best postseason player of your generation. And JoeD? Well, he is overrated because too many Yankees fans mention his name in the same breath as Mantle and he, as great as he was, is not in the same picture.
I hear you that the term overrated is highly subjective, but I don’t agree that DiMaggio doesn’t deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Mantle.
I already mentioned the three years DiMaggio missed due to the war. We can’t give him back those years, and I’m not an advocate for projecting what he would have done, so let’s just take a look at WAR/162 games for each guy:
Mantle (per 162): 654 PA, 7.5 WAR
DiMaggio (per 162): 653 PA, 6.9 WAR
I’m not saying this should be the extent of the comparison of the two, but Mantle only rates 9% better when we factor in that DiMaggio’s career was shortened due to non-baseball factors (and circumstances that were clearly beyond his control). If we simply compare Mantle’s career WAR to DiMaggio’s, Mantle rates 40% better, but that misses a big part of the picture.
Who do I rate higher? Mantle. But, to say DiMaggio shouldn’t be mentioned is the same breath is, honestly, under-rating DiMaggio. That, of course, is an entirely subjective opinion as well. 🙂
Dan: I think JoeD is great, but I rest my argument with 2 comments below (at 22 and 24). That is where my comment about overrated came from.
If Lazzeri is overrated for being in the Hall undeservedly, I think you have the wrong Italian Yankee middle-infielder. While Lazzeri is kind of borderline (126 OPS+ from a second basemen is pretty damn impressive), if probably a little short of Copperstown standards, Rizzuto has absolutely no business within a mile of the Hall. Wouldn’t he make more sense on your overrated Rushmore?
Not in the top 15 in WAR but Charlie Keller may be the most underrated Yankee.
Keller’s OPS+ of 152 puts him at number 28 on the all-time list. On the all-time Yankee list he is 5th, behind you know who.
I’m a Yankee fan (and Italian, no less) and I’ve always thought of Joe DiMaggio as overrated because they gave him the MVP in both 1941 and 1947 instead of Ted Williams.
That shit’s bananas.
I would disagree, at least in one sense.
This is not to say that DiMaggio wasn’t a great player. Even if you include players excluded from the Major Leagues by discrimination and even discount Dimaggio’s performance because he didn’t have to face those same players and even if you give him no credit for the time he spent in the military he is still easily in the top 10 center fielders of all time and by almost any line of reasoning you might care to use no lower than 7th on that list. In my own mind I would put him 5th or at the very worst 6th. And that is even with center field having the greatest concentration of talent at any position, at least in my opinion (although right field is very close).
But all of that being said, when I was growing up in the 60’s it was still the consensus of opinion among what I would say was a strong majority of sportswriters and baseball people in general that DiMaggio was better than Mantle. And at the very least a very significant minority also thought he was better than Mays up until about 1965. And I think that that view- at least in regards to Mantle- was still the opinion of many until some of the older generation started to die off and Bill James and better statistical analysis came into wider acceptance.
So yes, the idea that he’s over-rated like Pie Traynor or Lou Brock or Bill Terry is bananas. But from that viewpoint that for at least 2 decades after they had both stopped playing a very significant number of people still felt that he was better than Mantle, I would say he was.
On a side note, I’d like to say that Pie Traynor and Lou Brock are in a special class of over-rated that Bill Terry doesn’t belong in.
Probably,but Traynor and Brock are still much better HOF choices then at least half a dozen of The Friends Of Frankie Frisch, such as Dave Bancroft, George Kelly, Rube Marquard, Chick Hafey, Jesse Haines and Ross Youngs.
Amen to Lawrence at #111 above. Sometimes we compare current players to players from yore, and see that they are similar to weak HOFers, and it turns out to be a poor argument. But those guys he names are SO weak that they don’t even come up in those lame comparisons.
I agree with Lawrence as well. However, a commenter on the Thurman Munson post opened my eyes to Ross Youngs’ premature death. This is from his BR Bullpen page:
“In early 1926, he was diagnosed with Bright’s disease but still was a regular for the club that season. By the next year, he was bedridden, and Youngs died in October at age 30. Despite his short career, he was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1972.”
Not saying he definitely belongs in the Hall, but I’d put him in the Brock/Traynor category before the Marquard/Hafey/Kelly category.
I’m a bit easier on Youngs, too. Still, I don’t think he was anywhere close to Munson. I have Munson at the Hall of Fame borderline at the time of his death. Youngs was only 60% of the way there. Still, he probably could have made it to 80% or so, which certainly doesn’t make him an awful choice.
#119/Adam –
Ross Youngs is similar to Addie Joss in that both were making good progress building a HOF case, when they were tragically struck down in their very early 30s.
There are also similar questions concerning their HOF elegibility: Youngs’ 10th season was only 7 games,while Joss only had 9 seasons total (they fudged that, by saying that Joss was in spring training for his 10th season….
Youngs did get HOF votes 17 times over 21 years (peaking at 19.1%), so he did have some HOF support beyond that of Frisch.
Let’s keep a little perspective here guys.
I did not say Traynor, Brock and Terry sucked just as I pointed out very clearly that DiMaggio did not suck.
Traynor, Brock & Terry are all very, very good players and arguably great players. I personally have no problem with any of them being in the Hall of Fame.
But you can belong in the Hall of Fame and still be over-rated. Traynor is the easiest. He was the consensus “greatest third baseman ever” for almost 50 years even tho he wasn’t even the best of his own era- the would be Stan Hack- and didn’t hold a candle to Home Run Baker or Eddie Matthews or Brooks Robinson- who was his first real competition in the eyes of a great many. Brock was mentioned in the same breath as his National League contemporaries- Mays, Aaron & Robinson. Bill Terry was considered by some as the 3rd greatest first baseman ever- just behind Gehrig & Foxx. A very famous book The 100 Greatest Baseball Players of All Time included 6 first basemen in it’s first edition in 1981, Terry among them. Willie McCovey and Harmon Killebrew were not. I have tons of old Baseball Digests that have frequent references of the 3 players I mentioned as being high among the very greatest to ever play their positions.
My point was NOT that these were good players like George Kelly or Tommy McCarthy who somehow became elevated to greatness. It was that even GREAT players can still be over-rated- at least in the eyes of some.
I think he was overrated in the regard that he was crowned with the mythical “Best player alive” title over Williams, Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Musial, etc.
His legend is built up, I believe, due to the romanticism with this hit streak. A very impressive feat, indeed, but his streak slash line of .408/.463/.717 is not as impressive as Williams’ season line of .406/.553/.735 Joe’s winning MVP that year is a farce.
Joe is, to me, solidly #4 all-time amongst the Yankees.
Bill Terry had hit .400 “only” 11 years prior in 1930 and several guys put up .380+ averages in the years between Terry and Williams. I don’t think .400 was seen as the huge accomplishment that it is today.
The fans/writers were absolutely occupied by Dimaggio’s streak for about a month during the 1941 season.
I think if everyone knew that there would never be another .400 hitter for the next 70+ years (if ever), then perhaps Ted would have gotten the MVP.
If you think that was a bad choice now…just wait until someone breaks the 56 game hitting streak (prior to someone batting .400 again). I am not saying it is more likely, I am just hypothesizing. But writing that, it is hard to imagine anyone breaking that hitting streak. And if anyone got close, the media circus that would follow that player after he reached the 50 game mark.
Two things to remember:
1)Ted Williams biggest obstacle in mvp balloting was his relationship with Boston sportswriters, who refused to vote for him even though he was the best hitter in baseball.
2) DiMaggio was considered by many the best outfielder in the world; Williams was an indifferent fielder. Dimaggio was a great baserunner; Williams was not so hot.
And anybody who thinks he was overrated because Williams should have won in 47 should look at the numbers in 37 and 48.
That said, Randolph, White, and McDougald sure were underrated. Not so sure about Bernie. I’d put Munson on there first. I think Munson should be in the Hall.
I also think Nettles and maybe even Chambliss were underrated, but I didn’t think making my all underrated team with just 1970s Yankees was very balanced, but I did think about Munson for sure.
Maybe in his time he was overrated if a 1950s baseball fan would consider him the 2nd greatest player of all-time behind Ruth, but nowadays I think Joe DiMaggio is actually underrated. He is currently #33 on the ELO rater, and I think he should be closer to a top ten player. He seems to get very little credit for missing his age-seasons 28, 29 and 30 to the war whereas everyone who brings up Williams always says don’t forget war credit. But far, far more importantly he does not get credit for being a righty in Yankee Stadium. Look at the dimensions he played with:
Outfield dimensions (feet)
301 440 450 380 296
Then take into account he still has the 10th highest SLG% (.579) of ALL-TIME, including 1990s players.
Here are his road numbers x2:
7766 PA
413 HR (the same rate of HR/AB as Lou Gehrig)
1636 RBI
784 BB/412 K (one less than dingers!)
.333/.405/.610/1.015
And remember, the low number of PAs is due to a shortened peak time, not a shortened decline phase.
DiMaggio at home:
3790 PA, 148 HR, .315/.391/.546
I cant find the double splits that show Mantle at home as a RHB, but through some research I believe he hit 76 HR at home as a RHB. He had a total of 4878 home PAs, so assuming his career rate of batting righty 33% of the time he hit 76 HRs in ~1610 PAs, a better rate than DiMaggio but much lower than his career rate.
However, Mick’s road numbers x2:
10058 PA
540 HR
1530 RBI
1728 BB/ 1822 K
.291/.413/.545/.958
When considering DiMaggio missed his prime years there is definitely a case he was better than Mantle and very underrated as the 33rd best player of all time.
DiMaggio has an RBI/G ratio of 0.885, third best behind only Gehrig and Greenberg.
And what were DiMaggio’s RBI opportunities compared to league average, and other batters who hit in the same spot in their lineups as he did?
You make some quality points Topper. It got me thinking about something that I’m not sure I’ve seen discussed much. To what extent does a player on a great team benefit from not having to hit against their own pitching staff? While not known as much for their pitchers, here’s how the Yankees ranked in ERA during Dimaggio’s years:
1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd.
I think I got them all though I might have missed a year or two. So while not known for their individual pitchers the Yankees definitely had quality staffs. And while this is just for Dimaggio, you’d probably find the same thing for Mantle or Gehrig or Ruth or Berra, etc.
Do the advanced stats,particularly WAR, take this into account (i.e., not facing your own team’s pitchers?) I honestly have no idea.
A lot of that is probably due to the ridiculous dimensions. Despite those ERA rankings here are the Pinstripe hurler WAR rankings in the Clipper era:
3rd, 2nd, 4th, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 4th.
They were usually above average but their stadium made them look like the best in the league
Fair point Topper, raw ERA probably wasn’t the best way to look at it. Anyway, I’m still interested in the more general topic. For example, if you played for the Braves when they had Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz et al, did you get an artificial WAR boost from not having to hit against those pitchers? I honestly have no idea.
Teams in other divisions need to be considered also, for example Greg Maddux only pitched 6 innings against the Padres in 1998. The NL West/Central teams were also not facing the Braves as often as other NL East teams
I agree Topper. I’m just raising the general issue but it seems like no one but you and I are interested in the topic. Or maybe no one knows the answer.
It’s an established fact that one full season is a relatively insignificant sample size in terms of career evaluation, and this is one reason why.
Ed @125 and 133, yes quality of opponent is factored into rWAR, at least for pitchers. Under the Player Value table, look for RA9opp for pitchers, which is the average number of runs scored by THIS PITCHER’S opposition per 9 innings. It leads to RA9avg, then to RAA, then WAA, then WAR.
I’m not as sure about hitters, but I’d be surprised if Sean F. and Rally don’t have this factored in somewhere. rWAR is so much more sophisticated than people give it credit for.
Thanks Bstar though my question is more the opposite: how are WAR (and other advanced stats) affected by the players you don’t face (namely your teammates)? Maybe there’s no real difference between that and factoring in quality of opposition but I’m not sure.
Ed, it answers that for pitchers. If your teammates are the best hitters in the league, RA9opp will show that you faced easier opponents than everyone else. Again, I don’t know about the batters.
Well taking Chipper Jones as an example (there must be better ones) the league ERA he has played in was 4.25 (1995-2012 NL). The league ERA minus the Braves was 4.29, so Chipper faced pitchers who were 1% worse than other players not on the Braves. Not a very big deal I guess.
While Joe Dimaggio was certainly hurt by being a righty pull hitter in the Old Yankee Stadium, he was also helped by playing his career in a well above-average offensive environment. His first four years (1936-1939) were amongst the higher runs/game in the 20th century: 1st,4th,8th,10th.
His neutralized slah line is .314/.388/.560, compared to an actual .325/.398/.579.
I wouldn’t read _too much_ into him being 33rd on B-R’s ELO meter; Barry Bonds is #30, one behind Wade Boggs.
The term “overrated” is the quicksand of discussions and debates. It’s a nonstarter. It has no meaning but to the person using the term.
I did vote based on era, since picking just four is ridiculous anyway, and that meant Ruth goes on but Gehrig does not. Crazy. Ruth, DiMaggio, Mantle, Jeter. I hate to have no pitchers but they didn’t mean as much to the history of the franchise. Of course a separate mountain needs to be built just for Rivera. Greatest postseason pitcher ever.
Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, Jeter. I imagine it’ll end up the first three plus DiMaggio but I have a hard time leaning that hard toward pre-1960 ballplayers.
Gehrig’s only on my list because of the fact that he still played professional baseball when he was literally dying (don’t like taking 2 guys from the same era and Ruth has to go in). Lots of guys would be no-brainers for other franchises but won’t have a chance here.
Despite the tons of history and great players it seems very likely Ruth-Gehrig-Mantle-DiMaggio will run away with this in a huge landslide.
Can someone tell me how Roger Maris was left off this list? And the only person other than Brent that would like to see a giant head of A-Rod, is probably Alex himself. Brent, are you really Alex?
Well since I made the list, I can tell you. Maris played only 850 regular-season games with the Yankees and was part of just two World Series winners. And during his years with his team, he was always overshadowed by someone else, usually Mickey Mantle. I can’t imagine anybody picking him to represent the team.
HOWEVER, I have added him to the poll.
Why no Roger Maris – because he wasn’t one of the 35 best candidates? I do understand he was a very good player (great in 1960-62) and has the whole fame thing going for him, but if I were to replace any of the 35 names above, I’d rather add a semi-forgotten lifetime-Yankeee, such as Tommy Henrich, Mel Stottlemyre, or Gil McDougald. A pre-1920 candidate (Chesboro?) would’ve also been nice.
OTOH, since this is a _subjective exercise_ and based on fandom emotions, Maris wouldn’t have been a terrible choice. I just don’t think he’s an obvious oversight – you’d have to narrow this down to “Yankees of the 60s” before you could make a reasonable argument for him.
The Yankees are the one team that could have five Mt Rushmores, even one entirely just for the managers (Huggins/ McCarthy/ Stengel/ Torre), with no shortage of candidates.
Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio. Might have been the easiest one yet.
Ack! Only four spots!? Need six or seven. If I had that amount, the list would be: Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra, Jeter and possibly Whitey Ford.
Ugh. Rickey? Why even mention Rickey?
Four and a half years.
We only had him for four and a half years.
And I’ve just relived the moment of buying the NY Daily News on my way to the last day of school in 1989, turning to the back cover, and seeing that Rickey was gone. For Eric Plunk.
I’m taking the rest of the day off from baseball…
It’s hard to imagine a Yankees Mount Rushmore that does not include Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Derek Jeter or Mariano Rivera.
I have to go with Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and Rivera. You know it’s a tough vote with you have leave off a player who hit in 56 straight games, a catcher called the best of all-time by Bill James, and a player who is likely going to finish his career with 3600+ hits.
It’s impressive even when you only consider players who have played for the Yankees and no one else.
You can’t leave off DiMaggio for any reason. I don’t understand this. I’d rather leave off Ruth than DiMaggio. He is the greatest Yankee of all time.
Babe Ruth is the greatest and most significant player in MLB history, but I might just agree with you when considering that DiMaggio played his entire career with the Yankees.
Um, no. I don’t understand how you could even remotely put Joe above Ruth, or Gehrig, and while I could see an argument for putting him over Mantle, you’d NEVER get me to take Joe over the Mick.
Yeah, the number of guys on the hitters’ list who played their whole careers with the Yankees is amazing: Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Jeter, Yogi (except for 9 PA in 4 G with the Mets after having been totally retired for a year), Dickey, Bernie, Munson, White, Combs. Ten out of 15, if we let Yogi in. I don’t have the time or energy to check out the top 15 hitters (or pitchers) for any other team, but I can’t imagine another group like this. (Please knock me upside the haid if I’m wrong about that.)
Pitchers, not so much, but there are still a few, “just” 4 out of 15: Mariano, Whitey, Guidry, Stottlemyre. And note that three of these four are numbers 1, 2, and 3 on the list.
I agree with the approach of trying to cover as many championships as possible. Jeter may not be in the top 4 of WAR but he was the face of the team through the most recent championships making him the easy choice. 28 world series can not be covered by 4 people.
Ruth 23,27,28, and 32
NOTE: 1935 they didn’t win which is the year without Ruth or DiMaggio which is why you don’t need Gehrig for this exercise.
DiMaggio 36,37,38,39,41,47,49,50,51*
NOTE: not covered 1943, double covered 51.
Mantle 51*,52,53,56,58,61,62
NOTE: not covered 1977,1978
Jeter 96,98,99,00,09
I guess #5 would cover 77 and 78 so it would be Munson or Guidry. To cover 43, it’d have to be Dickey. I can see people arguing for Gehrig over Jeter. Clearly Gehrig was a better historical legend but picking Jeter over him gives you the nice overage of the eras the Yankees are famous for with the face of the team during those championships. It’s no accident that you can’t cover more than 24 of the 27 world series wins with any other combination of players. You could pick 3 other guys instead of Jeter to get the same coverage but other than that it’s almost by rule. Rivera is a better HOF candidate than Jeter, but Jeter was the face of the team.
Seriously though overrated on DiMaggio? Wow. He’s got no holes in his game. He won 9 world series. I mean, that’s more than 27 of the 29 other franchises! Give him some love for missing his top 3 years in the war, one of which they won without him, and I don’t think it’s much doubt the would have topped the athletics as well.
I am a Yankee fan so I could probably come up with a personal Yankee Mount Rushmore with 1000 players. But here is my effort to keep it reasonable (not necessarily objective).
I first thought I would do a break down by position, but that leads to a longer list of guys, plus I have done all of the teams by eras until now so I will continue that.
1) 1901 thru 1919 (Deadball) – 0 World Series Appearances
Jack Chesbro, Hal Chase, Willie Keeler, Roger Peckinpaugh, Home Run Baker, Jimmy Williams, Les Nunamaker, Jeff Sweeney, Ray Caldwell, Russ Ford, Red Kleinow, Kid Elberfeld, Birdie Cree, Wid Conroy, Ray Fisher, Al Orth, Allen Russell, Clark Griffith
2) 1920 thru 1935 (Ruth) – 7 World Series App., 4 Championships
Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Tony Lazzeri, Earle Combs, Herb Pennock, Waite Hoyt, Wally Pipp, Bob Meusel, Joe Dugan, Bob Shawkey, George Pipgras, Sad Sam Jones, Carl Mays, Wilcy Moore, Wally Schang, Aaron Ward, Mark Koenig, Ben Chapman, Urban Shocker, Bullet Joe Bush, Johnny Allen, Everett Scott, Pat Collins, Miller Huggins
3) 1936 thru 1951 (DiMaggio) – 11 World Series App., 10 Championships
Joe DiMaggio, Bill Dickey, Phil Rizzuto, Red Ruffing, Lefty Gomez, Charlie Keller, Joe Gordon, Tommy Henrich, Spud Chandler, Allie Reynolds, Vic Raschi, Ed Lopat, Red Rolfe, Frankie Crosetti, George Selkirk, Snuffy Stirnweiss, Monte Pearson, Johnny Murphy, Joe Page, Billy Johnson, Jerry Coleman, Marius Russo, Bill Bevens, Bobby Brown, Tiny Bonham, Atley Donald, Bump Hadley, Spec Shea, Babe Dahlgren, Nick Etten, Hank Borowy, Joe McCarthy
4) 1952 thru 1968 (Mantle) – 11 World Series App., 6 Championships
Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Whitey Ford, Roger Maris, Elston Howard, Bill Skowron, Hank Bauer, Billy Martin, Bobby Richardson, Clete Boyer, Joe Pepitone, Tony Kubek, Mel Stottlemyre, Bob Turley, Don Larsen, Tom Tresh, Gil McDougald, Ralph Terry, Jim Bouton, Joe Collins, Gene Woodling, Al Downing, Tommy Byrne, Johnny Sain, Luis Arroyo, Andy Carey, Hector Lopez, Pedro Ramos, Tom Sturdivant, Casey Stengel, Ralph Houk
5) 1969 thru 1981 (Munson/Jackson) – 5 Playoffs, 4 World Series App., 2 Championships
Thurman Munson, Ron Guidry, Reggie Jackson, Bobby Murcer, Graig Nettles, Willie Randolph, Rich Gossage, Sparky Lyle, Catfish Hunter, Roy White, Chris Chambliss, Lou Piniella, Bucky Dent, Mickey Rivers, Ed Figueroa, Fritz Peterson, Dick Tidrow, Rick Cerone, Ron Blomberg, Doc Medich, Ron Davis, Rudy May, Billy Martin-Mgr.
6) 1992 thru 1995 (Mattingly) – 1 Playoffs, 0 World Series App.
Don Mattingly, Dave Winfield, Rickey Henderson, Wade Boggs, Dave Righetti, Tommy John, Jimmy Key, Mike Pagliarulo, Steve Sax, Roberto Kelly, Mike Stanley, Scott Kamenieki, Jim Abbott, Butch Wynegar, Pat Kelly, Alvaro Espinoza, Ken Griffey, Don Baylor, Jesse Barfield, Danny Tartabull, Dan Pasqua, Kevin Maas, Steve Balboni, Dennis Rasmussen, Steve Farr, Greg Cadaret, Steve Howe, Buck Showalter, Gene Michael-Exec.
7) 1996 thru 2012 (Jeter) – 15 Playoffs, 7 World Series App., 5 Championships
Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Paul O’Neill, Andy Pettitte, David Cone, Robinson Cano, Jorge Posada, Mike Mussina, CC Sabathia, Orlando Hernandez, Tino Martinez, Alex Rodriguez, Mark Teixeira, Hideki Matsui, Roger Clemens, Chien-Ming Wang, David Wells, John Wetteland, Joe Girardi, Mike Stanton, Jeff Nelson, Ramiro Mendoza, Jim Leyritz, Jason Giambi, Chuck Knoblauch, Johnny Damon, Curtis Granderson, Nick Swisher, Alphonso Soriano, Charlie Hayes, Chad Curtis, Shane Spencer, Melky Cabrera, Bobby Abreau, Gary Sheffield, David Robertson, AJ Burnett, Ivan Nova, Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Joe Torre, Joe Girardi.
If I was going to choose my 4 favorite players, I would say Munson, Jeter, Mattingly, Guidry.
But realistically, I have to choose the Yankees Mount Rushmore as The Babe, The Iron Horse, The Mick and The Yanke Clipper.
1000? Really?
The Yankees have had 1,559 players, through yesterday. So why don’t you just come up with the 559 players you WON’T enshrine.
#1 Babe Ruth
#2 Lou Gehrig
…
#998 Joe Lefebvre
#999 Jerry Moses
#1000 Andy Stankiewicz
#1001 A-Rod
#1002 Ron Klimkowski
…
#1559 Kei Igawa
Now you’ve opened up a whole other can of worms: Who are the worst players in Yankees history?
Based purely on career WAR with the Yankees, the worst Yankees careers have been those of the infielder Enrique Wilson (-3.0 WAR for the Yankees from 2001 to 2004)and the pitcher Andy Hawkins (-2.9 WAR for the Yankees from 1989 to 1991).
Without looking up anything three players who come to mind are Hensley Meulens, Steve Trout and Ken Clay.
Ed Whitson. He was actually a decent pitcher: 20.1 career WAR but he was a disaster as a Yankee (-2.1 WAR in 1 1/2 years). Also Britt Burns who of course never actually pitched for the Yankees.
Rather than use “WAR as a Yankee” as a blunt instrument, I think the spirit of the question is more “who were the most _disappointing_ players in Yankees history”.
I don’t think there were great expectations for Enrique Wilson.
These are all good examples of names that conjure up bad memories for Yankees fans. I was kind of looking for both angles: definitely curious what WAR would say, but also interested in thinking beyond that to most disappointing or biggest bust or whatever.
Ed Whitson is kind of the poster child for the “Couldn’t handle New York” crowd.
That’s the stereotype of Whitson, but it’s not actually true. In 1985 he had a 4.08 ERA in Yankee Stadium, 5.48 on the road. My quick back of the envelope calculations shows that he was also worse on the road in ’86 when he was with the Yankees.
“Without looking up anything three players who come to mind are Hensley Meulens, Steve Trout and Ken Clay.”
Nice.
I remember wanting “Bam Bam” Meulens to be great. Seems like I waited 5 years for it to never come true.
I was actually excited when the Yankees traded for Steve Trout…He was always good against the Yanks and was otherwise pretty decent for the 2 Chicago teams. Again, I waited for results that never materialized.
Ken Clay was a pretty nondescript relief pitcher of the late 1970’s…but I want to say he did something good with the Yanks – I have to look him up…The only thing I can find is a Save in Game 1 of the 1978 ALCS. He relieved Jim Beattie in the bottom of the 6th with the bases loaded, 1 out and the Yankees ahead 4-0. He gave up a sac fly to Hal Mcrae and got Al Cownes to Ground out. He then finished the game (3.2 inn) giving up 3BB (scattered), 0H and 0R for the save. Pretty much everything else with the Yanks was blah or a disaster though.
My Mount Rushmore of the worst Yankees:
1. Kevin Brown
2. Carl Pavano
3. Kenny Rogers
4. Raul Mondesi
As for the actual Mount Rushmore, I voted for Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle and Jeter. I hate not being able to vote for DiMaggio (as well as Mariano and Yogi). But I think Jeter deserves a spot here, especially so that someone from the past 40+ years of the Yankees is represented.
To make this meaningful (if possible), I think it needs to have a minimum number of plate appearances or innings pitched. That Jake Gibbs managed to stay with the team for 11 years is a sad statement about the dark years of late 60’s and early 70’s for us Yankee fans.
@Ed #50: It mostly is just the stuff of legend, but the concept of “handling New York” means more than being able to pitch at home in New York. It’s more about being able to handle the pressure of pitching for the Yankees. Pitching on the road for the hated Yankees is certainly part of that.
@Dan #61 Oh I agree. It’s just that for some reason most people (myself included) think that Whitson was a lot worse in Yankee Stadium than on the road. Not that he was good in Yankee Stadium, just better than on the road…
I am shocked that no one has mentioned the man who personified the shift from power to speed
after the boss decided to let Reggie leave.
He is number one on my list of worst Yankees…
1. Dave Collins
2. Steve Kemp
3. Butch Wynegar
4. Ed Whitson
5. Bert Campaneris
6. Steve Trout
7. Ken Clay
8. Brad Gulden (Did well with the mustard)
Jake Gibbs in the 60s/early 70s had similar numbers to those that Rick Cerone put up for the Yankees in the 80s. Gibbs played in 531 games as Yankee, put up an 81 OPS+ and accumulated 5.6 WAR (b-ref version). Cerone played in 587 games for the Yanks, put up an 80 OPS+ in his games as a Yankee and accumulated 3.2 WAR in those games.
They played similar roles for the Yanks: regular starting catcher when there wasn’t any better choice, and a backup when there was.
George Halas, 1919: 2 singles in 22 ABs with 8 Ks and 0 BBs.
@38 and 53 You mean Knight in the Order of Orange-Nassau and World Series winner Sir Hensley Meulens? 🙂
what, no Steinbrenner?
I thought about it.
I, for one, am glad you didn’t think more about it.
Yogi Berry?
Has a nice ring to it, but I still prefer the original.
🙂
Not to mention Phil Ruzzuto.
I think this is a hanging chad situation. We need a recount!
I know people won’t love it, but I definitely went with Ruth / Gehrig / Mantle / Rivera. Sure, you can make the case for DiMaggio or Berra or Jeter over Mo … but the greatest Yankees pitcher of all time (by rWAR) deserves a fair shot at the mountain.
I chose the same four, because I felt like there needed to be one pitcher at least.
Plus, I couldn’t choose between Joe D. and Jeter.
If I were arguing for Berra as at least the equal of DiMaggio from a Yankee Rushmore point of view, the argument might go something like this:
(1) Comparing catchers to center fielders head-to-head is trying to cpopmare apples to oranges. Maybe it;s better to look at how Joe D. and Yogi rank amongst their all-time peers. Adam Darowski’s weighted WAR rnaks Joe D. as number 6 all-time among center fielders (behind Mays, Cobb, Speaker, Mantle and Junior Griffey) and Berra number 6 all-time amohng catchers (behind Bench, Carter, I-Rod, Fisk and Piazza). So call that a wash.
(2) On the Yankees, World Series performance is nearly as important as regular season performance. Here are the career World Series OPS numbers for the “big 5”, with their career regular seaosn OPS numbers in parens:
Ruth 1.282 (1.195)
Gehrig 1.208 (1.080)
Mantle .907 (.977)
Jeter .832 (.831)
DiMaggio .760 (.977)
Joe was really the only one of the five who could be characterized as significantly disappointing in his Series games relative to his own regular season standards.
To finish your thought.
Berra .811 (.830)
Thanks, Doug. I somehow managed to leave Berra’s numbers off, although that was sort of the point of the whole list. Brain freeze.
Hey, wWAR! 🙂 Been working on a new formula. Here’s the latest:
DiMaggio: 168.7
Berra: 135.5
Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle. Then it gets really hard. Interesting if you look at Bill James’s Hall of Fame Monitor
Ruth 464 (including 42 from pitching)
Gehrig 352
Jeter 329 (big leg up because of position)
Mantle 300
DiMaggio 260
Rivera 251
Berra 226
Ford 208
I was actually looking at the career leaders for Hall of Fame Monitor today.
Jeter has really squeezed everything out of that “Stat” that he possibly could. It looks like he has a shot at going into 10th place all-time(!) if everything falls his way this year.
He needs a subset of the following possible season milestones:
100 runs (has 89 now), 200 hits (191), .300 BA (.324), 35 doubles (29), and a division win by the Yankees.
Honestly, although it’s crazy to leave so many players off, this really is the easiest one yet. The idea of putting a face on a mountain is basically to make someone larger than life, to honour someone larger than life, to pay tribute to legend. I don’t even want to look at the numbers, even though the WAR numbers back it up: the four that rise clearly above the rest are Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio. They are among greats, but they are legends.
Bells: You took the words right out of my mouth.
To honor more players here’s my Rushmore for only players who were traded from the KC A’s to the Yankees: Roger Maris, Bobby Shantz, Clete Boyer and Ralph Terry. I had to leave off Hector Lopez and Ryne Duren.
I submit a recent-history bad-pitching Rushmore of Kevin Brown, Carl Pavano, Kei Igawa and Jaret Wright
What do you have against Javier Vazquez? 😉
ha, I mentioned Brown and Pavano in my anti-Rushmore list of Yanks before reading your comment. Igawa and Wright are also fine nominees.
I chose the Core 4.
You can tell me the stats and legacies of the Gehrigs, Ruths, Mantles, DiMaggios etc… but I’m a 90’s kid. To me 4 faces that represent the Yankees are Pettitte, Posada, Rivera & Jeter.
Why the eras approach bothers me – the real Mount Rushmore has Washington and Jefferson, who were “in the same era”. Around the time the plans for this Rushmore were being discussed there was talk of swapping out Jefferson for Andrew Jackson just to cover more championship years, but folks were ultimately dissuaded. (That line is tongue-in-cheek and not fact, should someone doing historical research stumble across this and start digging through documents trying to substantiate that claim.) Which is why Gehrig joins Ruth, Mantle, and DiMaggio.
As for Jeter – well, someone has to be 5th. When they make the next monument to honor the 130 years of US Presidents since the 1920s then Jeter can be on that monument.
As for Yogi – doesn’t his mountain have to be located in Jellystone Park?
As for the pitchers – no one thinks pitching when they think of the Yankees.
And what I want to know is: Are there plans to do a Stone Mountain series? The Yankees could be Mattingly, Stottlemyre, and Bobby Murcer (three guys who won some battles but never won it all).
To me, when you count war credit for Joe, the 4 Faces are the same as they’ve been for over 40 years now: Ruth/Gehrig/DiMaggio/Mantle.
For any other franchise, Jeter/Berra/Rivera/Ford would be a fantastic Rushmore. For the Yanks, it’s the B-Team.
I am a little surprised there’s so little love for Yogi, possibly the second best catcher ever after Bench?
I have to say a few words about Bill Dickey. Here’s a guy who:
a) Played his entire career with the Yankees
b) Is in the HOF
c) Is 7th all-time in catcher WAR
d) Served as player-manager for 105 games in 1946
e) Taught Yogi Berra how to play the catcher position.
And yet, as I type this he has ZERO votes. I’m not saying he deserves votes over the other candidates but it is pretty amazing when you think about it.
Bill James developed something called Catcher Pride Points in one of his books. The idea was to try to measure the seemingly immeasurable, the effect that catchers have on their pitchers. He gave points for winning a GG, for catching 20 game winners, for catching ERA champion (by team), and a bunch of other things. Guess who won? Bill Dickey.
That’s because Yogi Berra already fills the “best Yankees catcher ever” niche, and even with all he did, Yogi can’t even crack the Top-5. Berra-Dickey isn’t quite on the level of DiMaggio-Mantle.
It’s interesting…everyone assumes that Berra was the best Yankees catcher. But it’s not clear that’s true. Comparing Berra to Dickey we see:
1) Berra has a slight edge in career WAR (56.1 vs 52.4) but Dickey lost a couple of years near the end of his career due to WWII. Sure Dickey was at the end of his career but he was still putting up positive WAR.
2) In terms of peak WAR, they’re basically indistinguishable.
3) Dickey played his whole career at catcher whereas Berra didn’t.
4) As I previously mentioned, Dickey trained Berra how to catch which has to count for something.
5) Berra obviously has 3 MVPs and Dickey has none. That being said, it’s not clear that Berra deserved any of his MVPs. The 1951 vote wasn’t too bad…The Yankees won the pennant and Berra and McDougald tied for the Yankees lead in WAR. That being said he wasn’t in the top 10 in WAR that year. He only won the ’54 vote because the Indians’ vote split (Indians’ players finished 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th). And he definitely didn’t deserve the ’55 MVP. Either Kaline or Mantle would have been better choices…Mantle had more than twice as much WAR as Berra).
So I don’t know. In my opinion, it’s close. Very close. I wouldn’t want to pick between them.
I’ve been working on a new version of wWAR and here’s what I’ve got:
Berra: 135.5
Dickey: 127.7
Very close, indeed.
Adam: Does your system give Dickey credit for the two seasons he missed due to WWII?
It does not. That’s a big point that I meant to bring up.
WAR doesn’t love Yogi Berra, I have to say. In fact, wWAR has Gary Carter as the #2 catcher of all time. Talk about an underrated Hall of Famer…
So if you factor that in and give Dickey credit for managing and training Berra, then one could argue that he’s ahead of Berra in terms of total impact.
I don’t think Dickey was going to earn enough during the time he missed to the war to catch Berra, so it depends what kind of extra credit you’d give for mentoring Berra and managing.
Of course, Yogi did a lot of managing of his own.
Of course, this doesn’t factor in each’s postseason exploits.
As Yogi put it: “Bill learned me all his experience”.
Just to dig deeper into WAR and Berra…
WAR gives him only 56 runs for position (Dickey also had 56). Berra caught only nine fewer games than Dickey, but also played a decent amount in the outfield, which ended up being a wash.
Berra rated decently in the field (+30 runs) and also did well on the bases (+12) and avoiding double plays (+10) for a catcher. In fact, Berra is positive in everything, which is rather awesome.
His 228 batting runs felt a bit low to me, considering his 125 OPS+. I searched for all players between 8000 and 8500 PAs and 200 to 250 WAR batting runs. Berra had the top OPS+ at 125. At the bottom of the list (which was 11 players) was Sal Bando with a 119 OPS+.
Interestingly, Berra’s closest comps in PA and WAR batting runs are Carlos Beltran and Scott Rolen. I have Rolen rated ahead of Berra (the defense is just obscene) and Beltran rated behind him.
Ah yeah, I had blanked out Berra’s managing career with the Yankees. Neither he nor Dickey managed the Yankees for very long but Berra did do it for a bit longer and with better results.
Then why didn’t you vote for him?
In the “win shares era” James had Yogi rated as the top catcher of all time and Dickey a not too shabby 7th. Win shares liked Yogi a lot better.
I never approach these things from the perspective of the four best players. For me it has to be who I think of when I think of the team, which encompasses a much broader set of touchstones and references. And when it comes to the Yankees there’s a whole lot of extra-curricular criteria to consider.
The Babe is clear. His talent was as outsized as the young city-state’s architecture, and he was brash, opinionated, a man of appetite. He made more money than the president and deserved to. He’s in.
Gehrig was a phenomenal player and left his name to the disease that killed him, but I don’t associate him nearly as strongly with the Yanks. His immortal speech lifted him beyond mere identification with a single ballclub. He belongs to baseball and America, not the Yanks. He’s out.
DiMaggio encapsulates the era of Jack Dempsey’s, the 21 Club, Toots Shor’s, men in hats, etc. etc. He bought all those roses for Marilyn Monroe’s grave and had a famous pop song reference him. The nickname “The Yankee Clipper” perfectly captures the man and the time. He’s in.
Mickey Mantle and Yogi Berra: I can only go with one of them, and they’re so often linked in their exploits on and off the field. The Mick obviously was the greater player and the greater drinker, but Yogi dominates the popular imagination with all those deathless non sequitors ascribed to him. And I just love: “When you come to the fork in the road, take it.” So Yogi’s in.
Reggie Jackson defined the Me-Decade, bankrupt-NYC, return-to-glory, early Steinbrenner Yanks. He learned the Muhammad Ali lessons and became a polarizing figure non-NYCers loved to hate. The drink might have been watered down and from the well, but he indeed stirred it and that gets him the final nod.
A couple of current Yankees have comparable talent but not comparable personalities.
Yipee. I have been waiting for this one.
This is like debating whether to chose a 10 inch
stack of 100’s or a 20 inch stack of 50’s.
My answer to the question is Ruth,
Mantle, Dimaggio and Jeter (partly because he will
exceed 3,800 hits).
It is so hard to leave Gherig off. I think it is important
that the recent Yankee run be acknowledged though.
I also hate leaving off representatives from the late
70’s and early 80’s. IMHO you have to include both
Thurman and Reggie.
Numbers 5-8, in order are Gherig, Berra, Munson and Jackson.
Numbers 9-12, are Whitey, Mo, Bill Dickey and The Chief. (Needed pitching).
Numbers 13-16, are AP, Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock and Louisiana Lightning.
Numbers 17-20, Lefty Gomez, Willie Randolph, Red Ruffing and Bernie.
Numbers 21-24, Arod, Mike Mussina, Met Stottlemyre and Roy White.
Numbers 25-28, Nettles, Roger Maris, Tommy Henrich and Joe Page.
Jason- Your’s was the first post I found that matched my 4 picks which I find a little amazing since they’re 1,3,4 & 5 in the polling so far. Obviously, I voted by era and as I see it the only question came down to Jeter or Rivera.
A lot of people have already commented on the ridiculous amount of talent at the top of the ballot. What I find most amazing is the amount of talent that is garnering little or no support or was not on the ballot altogether. Joe Gordon didn’t even make the cutoff. Neither did Tommy Henrich or Charlie Keller. Same for Bobby Murcer. ARod has played more years for New York than any other team and produced more WAR for them than any team he has played for and he has exactly 1 vote as of this writing. You have 4 of easily the 20 greatest catchers of all-time on the ballot, including arguably the greatest and between them they have managed just over 2% of the vote. There are guys with no votes yet who would be up on the walls of other NON-expansion franchises.
Trying to narrow this down to 4 is almost impossible.
I thought for awhile before knocking out the Iron Horse
for Jeter.
It’s just that to me, Jeter is that good. I also
tried to project where Jeter winds up in total hits.
He is signed for one more year after this. As I
write this he has 191 hit this year and is batting
.324. Amazing. He could win the batting title.
That would be something.
But I digress.
He has 3,279 hits. My guess is that he ends the year
with 3,315.
Let’s say next year he gets 195 hits. Still a good year
but a bit of a regression.
He then signs for two years before retiring.
In those two years he gathers a total of 350 hits.
This puts him at 3,855 and solidifies him
as a NYY Mount Rushmore resident.
Plus it gives the franchise a representative in
four distinct errors, including one in the last
fifty years.
I felt badly about leaving out recent history despite
Gherig’s greatness.
Finally, Jeter’s career has paralleled what has
been an unbelievable postseason run.
It is not really fair to compare what the Yankees of
recent vintage have done in comparison to the 47-64 group.
This recent group has to win 2 playoff series just to
make the WS. The other dynasties had to win zero.
With a little luck the Yankees could have won the WS in
01 and 03. Also, if the Yankees don’t blow that lead in
04, I think they beat the Cardinals that year too.
Nevertheless, the run was historic, unprecedented and will
never be seen again.
All of this only serves to solidify Jeter in my mind.
It does not make Gherig’s exclusion altogether proper,
only offers the best reasoning I can give.
Since it is so obvious who the top four would be, I approached this differently, and chose players that weren’t as good MR candidates, but that I thought deserved at least one vote.
So if you are wondering who voted for:
-Ron Guidry
-Miller Huggins
-Roy White
-Allie Reynolds
(four of the eight players with only one vote so far)
…that’s me.
Wow–a lot of comments. Haven’t read any of them yet, but I’m still where I was two months ago, that this is the easiest one of all: Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle.
Huggins
McCarthy
Stengel
Martin
Huggins
1067 719 .597
6 Pennants
3 Championships (including the 1st)
___________________________________
McCarthy
1460 867 .627
8 Pennants
7 Championships
___________________________________
Stengel
1149 696 .623
10 Pennants
7 Championships
___________________________________
Martin
556 385 .591
2 Pennants
1 Championship (plus ’78)
A different kind of Rushmore: Bouton, Pepitone, Fred Talbot, Dooley Womack.
He said to play it louder.
Yes—Phil Linz, too!
Ruth, Gehrig and Mantle were easy for me. The greatest player ever and guys with solid (though not necessarily winning) arguments for best ever at their positions. I had to think for about 15 seconds to choose Berra over Rivera, Jeter and Dickey. Berra’s got a great argument for best catcher ever. Dickey can make the same argument, though, in my opinion, not quite as well. Rivera is probably the best specialist of all time. Jeter is one of the best hitters to ever play shortstop. With this team though, it’s almost impossible to come up with four unjustified choices.
I’ve been looking forward to helping carve this mountain, but it’s been a hectic day and I’m just logging on – the heads have already been mounted and they’re the right ones.
WAR and the War aside, they gave Hemingway the Nobel for writing about a man, a fish, and DiMaggio – and even if, like me, you think hitting streaks aren’t really something amazing, Marilyn Monroe is another story. I agree DiMaggio was overrated in the sense that Williams was a greater hitter – if this were the Yankee Sox Rushmore, I’d replace DiMaggio with Williams. But then Ruth would have two heads so Williams might get bumped off too.
Berra is a cultural icon and no player broke my heart more often – swinging over his head to drive in the late inning game winner, oh! – but Mantle was in class by himself on the field, and seeing talent like that in the service of the Yankee organization negated all my religious education.
Yankees that they are, I’m still a big admirer of St. Derek and Mo, but I don’t think there has been any latter day Yankee who has really come close to the icons of the true Dynastic Era.
Regarding the photo I used for this post:
It was not easy to pick a photo for the Yankees’ Rushmore post. I could have used a baseball card of most anybody. I could have had a great action shot of any current Yankee. But when I saw this Jeter photo, I knew it was the right one. In case it isn’t obvious, it was taken at Fenway Park. I love that Jeter is so recognizable even though we can’t see his face. I love the view of the scoreboard on the Green Monster, and I like to imagine that he’s deep in thought about a game that’s about to begin. It’s just a wonderful photograph.
I agree it’s an interesting photo, but it evoked different thoughts for me. More along the lines of a great player near the end of his career, tired, probably ailing in some manner or other, but still grinding it out like a true pro.
Agreed Andy, it is a fantastic photograph. There’s something very personal about it.
I went with the basics: Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle.
Choosing the four won’t be easy? Only if you try to make it hard! The four are Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio and Mantle.
They are not only among the all-time greats, they are also iconic, with all four of them transcending baseball to become part of American culture and myth, to the point where non-baseball fans of all ages are familiar with the names. As great as Yogi Berra and Whitey Ford were, and Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera are, none can crack into the top four, anymore than any president has a chance of removing George Washington and Abraham Lincoln from the top two positions as the country’s greatest presidents.
This is probably a good thread to bring this up since there is the accepted belief that the current New York Yankees were the original Baltimore Orioles that came about with the formation of the American League in 1901. There remains a healthy debate (perhaps even a growing debate) among baseball historians questioning if the Baltimore Orioles were transferred to New York and became the Yankees (or the New York Highlanders, or the New York Americans, or whatever their official name was) in 1903, or if in fact the Baltimore Orioles were basically disbanded, and an entirely new franchise created in New York.
Although the legend has been printed that the two organizations are the same, it is not entirely clear that is correct. The Yankees began in 1903 with new ownership, entirely new management, new players with only a few who coming directly from the Orioles, and even new spring training facilities. If there was a connection to the Baltimore Orioles, it was not evident at the start of the franchise.
According to Marty Appel, who used to work for the Yankees and recently wrote a book (Pinstripe Empire) on the history of the team, the Yankees official record keeping starts in 1903, and the team to this day does not recognize any linkage to the original Baltimore Orioles, including honoring or recognizing as their own any members of the HOF who were part of those Orioles teams.
For whatever it’s worth (not much), over the past few years I’ve moved into the camp believing they were most likely two separate organizations, but the historical linkage on the disbanding of the Orioles and the creation of the Yankees is so strong that it’s understandable why it came to be accepted as the same.
Mike, it’s great that you bring this up.
My understanding of the timeline is as follows:
1) The Baltimore Orioles were floundering from a financial perspective in 1902.
2) During that season, the AL decided to expand into New York, seeing that the Giants & Dodgers were doing well (attendance-wise) and since the leagues operated essentially as separate entities at that time, the AL decided to bring in some competition.
3) A new owner was approached about being the one to bring this new team in.
4) That owner decided to buy the Baltimore Orioles and move them to NY for the following year (1903 season). As you say, many things changed–personnel, facilities, etc.
In that regard, I think it’s appropriate to look at the 01-02 Orioles as NOT being part of the Yankees. It’s actually similar to my actual job outside of this blog. Seven years ago, I worked for a company that was closing my division. I decided to buy up a bunch of their equipment & technology and go out on my own. My company turns 7 later this week. I consider it to be 7, even though I acquired most of the assets from another company, and THAT company can be traced back to the late 1990s. I don’t consider any of that history to part of MY company’s history, just a set of circumstances that existed before my company. They are part of my company’s backstory, but not its official history, which started 7 years ago.
I guess what I didn’t make clear above is that the new Highlanders’ owner could have opted to spend his money to create a team from scratch, but figured that he’d get a better starting product by buying an existing team that was looking to fold up anyway.
The Yankees used to like to think of the Orioles and Highlanders as the same franchise because:
1) It would link the team to the beginning of the American League.
2) There is a romantic notion involved because of Babe Ruth being born in Baltimore and there is a poetic parallel there.
But as mentioned above the team stance is 1903 as the start of the franchise. At game 1 of the 2003 World Series, I bought a cap with 100th Anniversary patch that said something to the effect of “100 Years – 1903 to 2003”.
Appel described an ownership with a closer relation to the AL commissioner than to the previous Baltimore team. The highlanders got several good players from Baltimore, but this is inevitable when they are a forming team and another team is closing. The commissioner seems to have wanted Baltimore out and a new team in NY in. That’s the real connection between the two franchises.
The AL president was Ban Johnson, who basically took the former Western Minor League, renamed it the American League in 1900, and then turned it into a competing Major League the following year by shifting some of the leagues franchises from second-tier cities to major cities, or expanding by establishing new teams in major cities. Once done, he declared the AL a new major league and began raiding talent from the NL, which foolishly had contracted, while establishing a cap on individual salaries. Players weren’t happy, making it easier for the new AL to recuit star players.
I mention this quick bit of history, because it relates to both franchise shifts and new franchises within the AL. Johnson controlled all moves, handpicking the owners and the teams. For example, Charles Comiskey was owner of the St. Paul Saints in the American League, which then shifted to Chicago to become the White Sox. This was a clear franchise shift, with ownership remaining intact. The Baltimore Orioles, however, did not remain intact. In fact, ownership of the team had shifted to the owner of the NL’s NY Giants, who purchased controlling interest mid-season 1902, then released the Orioles better players so the Giants (and the Reds, who were part of this scheme) could then add them to their NL teams.
The AL and Johnson basically took control of the team. While there was only a few Oriole players on the Yankees in 1903 (I believe only four), that may not be evidence that it wasn’t a franchise shift. There may simply have been few if any quality players left after the Giants raided the team. Plus, many of the players on the Orioles at the end of the season were on loan from other teams allowing the schedule to be played out. However, it’s also unlikely the Johnson would have allowed the Giants owner (who wanted to block the AL from moving a team to the New York) to have any part or say in the AL. That’s one reason I think it’s unlikely it was set up as a franchise shift. That might of been Ban Johnson’s original goal, but with the collapse financially of the Orioles, I believe he simply let the team die, and replaced it with a new franchise in New York, with owners he once again hand picked.
In that regard… are today’s Chicago Cubs the Cubs (Colts, Orphans, White Stockings) of 1876-1915, or are they the continuation of the Chicago (Federal) Whales?
See http://goo.gl/a1SrC for my blog post on the question.
greater than 1/3rd of these votes don’t include Dimaggio. Amazing. Perhaps more amazing is that Mantle was left off of 1/8th of the ballots.
Or that Babe Ruth was left off any.
I always joke about DiMaggio’s strikeouts. How many were swinging? The ones that weren’t, I bet they were balls. I think I trust DiMaggio’s eye more than the umpire.
The great thing about baseball is the numbers.
Two of the best are 361 and 369.
Dimaggio’s career strikeout and homerun totals.
Most of us on this blog never saw him play, but
we can look at those numbers and be confident
when we say he was great.
I went to the opening game in Marlins history
for only one reason.
Joe Dimaggio was scheduled to throw out the first ball.
I wanted to be able to say that I saw Joe Dimaggio
throw a baseball. Even at age 78.
Mission Accomplished.
Going into his last season, 1951, DiMaggio actually had more HRs than Ks, 349-333.
I know how passe triple crown stats are, but my favorite for DiMaggio is 1537 RBIs in 13 season (930 in 7 seasons before the war, through age 27).
I would like to hear from the six who didn’t vote
for the Sultan of Swat.
Seriously, do HOF voters lurk amongst us?
Jason Z,
See my #72. And don’t expect me to apologize.
At least you gave a coherent reason that
I can appreciate.
Don’t even think about apologizing.
You have many many mulligans.
I just checked the vote totals.
In honor of March Madness, here
are my last four out…(those with
zero votes presently).
1. Bill Dickey. The argument has been
made here that Dickey was better than Berra.
When Berra first came up he struggled. Dickey
taught him well.
2. Waite Hoyt. He led the staff during the first
great Yankee dynasty in the twenties.
3. Lefty Gomez. Helped to Anchor the staff during
the four in a row of the late 30’s.
4. Red Ruffing. See Above.
On the bubble…
Willie Randolph
Tonly Lazzeri
Earle Combs
Goose
My Mount Rushmore would include Gehrig (greatest Yankee of all-time), Ruth (greatest baseball player of all-time), DiMaggio (surprisingly overlooked which makes one imagine what his numbers would have been had it not been for the war) and Berra (10 World Series as a player and quite a personality to boot). You also can’t go wrong with choosing Mantle who came very close to making my Mount Rushmore (have tremendous respect for the guy seeing as how I have an autographed picture from him on my wall). Jeter, Ford and Rivera come close as far as I’m concerned as well. At the rate I keep mentioning players, I’ll have to make a top 10.
I suppose Derek Jeter is the fifth best Yankee batter of all time. Wow.
After I originally commented I appear to have clicked the -Notify me when new
comments are added- checkbox and from now on whenever a comment is added I get four emails with the same comment.
Perhaps there is a way you can remove me from that service?
Cheers!